Book 2 – Page 48

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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Chameon » Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:56 pm

Buncha people have said that they didn't know you could promote units to heavies, and I'm wondering how it's gone about myself. Do you toss a bunch of steel plates / random junk onto the unit and call it good? Add muscles? Maybe their weapon is made bigger. I hope to see a hobgobwin post-heavyified picture soon, so that I can marvel at being utterly wrong as there is no physical change.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby HailGreen28 » Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:02 pm

So maybe yellow dwagons attack has nothing to do with falling, since they can attack discriminately.

Maybe you can't upgrade warlords to "heavy"?

Ossomer sure is vulnerable to archers, there.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Ytaker » Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:12 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
Ytaker wrote:See Jack and Stanley's battle with the vamps. They dress as bats with a veil, and aren't attacked. I'd presume dressing as those sorts of units would count as natural foolamancy. Much easier to pierce than a spell, though.


They didn't auto-attack because both sides were led by warlords.


They didn't notice that the units weren't their own, which is why they didn't auto attack. If they could see the allegiance of enemy troops, they probably would have autoattacked since they were all ordered to attack the enemy units. We've seen no evidence that they can see the allegiance of enemy troops, by things other than insignia.

I doubt a simple veil like an outfit would stand up to much analysis. But it might give you some advantage against unlead infantry, or give you extra time against some foes.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Aquillion » Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:25 pm

Chameon wrote:Buncha people have said that they didn't know you could promote units to heavies, and I'm wondering how it's gone about myself. Do you toss a bunch of steel plates / random junk onto the unit and call it good? Add muscles? Maybe their weapon is made bigger. I hope to see a hobgobwin post-heavyified picture soon, so that I can marvel at being utterly wrong as there is no physical change.
Parson promoted himself to Field Unit earlier, and there was no visual change.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby gameboy1234 » Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:54 pm

build6 wrote:oh crap oh crap oh crap

things are looking pretty bad for Tramennis here

he's just too set in his preconceptions/assumptions of what is or is not possible ("we can't lose"), and fitting what he sees into emotions/reasoning that simply does not apply to Parson.



I feel the same way. I was hoping Tramennis would catch on quicker, and Slately would be the one who would take the attack merely as an affront. It seems that Tram the diplomat thinks this problem can be solved with diplomacy, and he isn't thinking beyond those parameters. Not yet anyway. I guess it'll take a sizable decrypted force, and maybe Parson himself to appear, both in Jetstone's garrison, before anyone sees that this is indeed an attack.

I just wonder how Wanda and Jack are going to get down. Will they? And will they have to survive a fall since casters can't be promoted to heavy? I assume that their dwagons will be shot down and they they'll fall, but perhaps there's another way.

I assume that all remaining Archon's will be croaked, since they can't land, and will eventually be exposed to air fire without any dwagons to absorb hits.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Infidel » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:03 pm

Geordy wrote:
Kizmet wrote:In all cases they are on the "ground" now and can attack.

Ok, Im reluctantly accepting the first part - but the second is still no true. We are still off-turn! So be it uncroaked, turned or healed - you have GK on your forehead, you are not allowed to attack unless being attacked yourself. (except for being yellow and a dragon)


This has nothing to do with being yellow, it is a typical AoE exploit. In games where some situation will disallow direct attacks, such as the NPC being a quest giver, often you can drop an AoE nearby and cause the NPC to retaliate, and then thus freed, you can NOW do direct attacks. Another example, in games that require you to be in combat-mode to use normal attacks and magical attacks. AoE can be used outside of combat mode.

shadowdemon_lord wrote:In a world where people are forced into a killing rage when they encounter enemy units, I find it fairly unlikely that that killing rage isn't based on some sort of natural thinkamancy that transcends regular perception. i.e. Even if Wanda decrypted a large force and put them in the enemy livery the enemy troops would innately identify enemy troops as not their own.


What is this killing rage you speak of? Nowhere is it implied that unled units go bezerk. They simply attack because there is no one around to tell them not to attack. Remember the tale of spearmint. He thought his purpose in life is to stick his pike into something. He doesn't want to stab something because he doesn't like it. He wants to stab something because that's what stabbity sharp things are for.

build6 wrote:But in that case - that the "promote to heavy" method of putting air units on the ground is "safe" - what exactly was the "risk" then, that Parson and Wanda's discussion involved a statement that there'd be many casualties/it'll be a close thing?


That comment about many casualties, was referring to "There is no way they will parlay" So it is referring to another battle plan that is not being used. In other words, Parson is using the ideal plan now, not the sub-ideal plan that he was forced to use before Charley tried to help. Charley tapped Parson's conversation and knows that Parson would be able to use a parley to his advantage somehow so that is a big reason why Charley discouraged a it.

I think foodfight referrs to zombies playing with their food. Zombies eat people.
Last edited by Infidel on Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Swodaems » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:04 pm

Just to remind everyone, there appears to be a catch mechanic that allows for one unit to stop another unit from taking fall damage.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F070.jpg
while the example is an air to air fall, it is possible that it would allow a unit on the ground to catch a unit falling from the airspace. I doubt a small unit can use it to catch a bigger unit, (I'm guessing the small unit gets flattened, (ansom vs. Bogroll,)) but that isn't a problem here because all GK units on the ground will be heavys or flyers.
Jack, Wanda, and the warlords (KC, Silvia, Ossomer, and maybe a few too low level to be listed by Parson as being considerable candidates for chief warlord after Ansom's capture) are not stuck in airspace. Problem is, from the tower, Jetstone can see and shoot anyone left in airspace after the dwagons/hobbos hit the ground preventing the catch from being safely used. "Let's do lunch" is going to prevent this.
Think about the phrase. It means meeting somebody to discuss something over food. It has to be something directed at the Jetstones parleying in the tower, the same ones who can kill anything left in airspace.
I'll say this bluntly because the logic behind this idea is too long. "Messy foodstuff, like flan or key lime pie, will be used to cover the zone boundary between tower and airspace. That will block the line of sight of anyone in the tower and prevent them from firing accurately." We can now safely get the casters and warlords down thru the catch mechanic.
Getting the casters and warlords on the ground, allows for alot of possibilities. If I were Parson, I would start by croaking all incapacitated fallen dwagons and hobos so they can be quickly decrypted. Next, because Jetstone will almost certainly be targeting Wanda, I create a fake target. I give Silvia Wanda's clothes (including the hair helmet, and maybe some of wanda's warpaint if she carries a supply on her.) Some cheap foolamancy will probably be required to hide the fact that her stats don't match Wanda's and to disquise her sword as the ArkenPliers as I don't want to risk them in a decoy ploy. (This is if I were Parson. If I were me, after hearing her account to Ossomer (ignore how I would have this knowledge,) I would check to see if the pliers come apart like quite a few I've seen do. After Silva talked to Ossomer, it became a personal Epileptic Twee of mine that says that the pliers were meant to be wielded by two people, and the other person is Silvia.)
While Jetstone is chasing after the false Wanda. I have Jack and Wanda make their way to the portal room using what ever tactics they find best. (Giving more specific orders than that is overmanaging IMO. All Jack and Wanda should be told that while having troops secure the portal room would be definately a good thing to have happen, the most important thing is that they both make it there, with foolamancy if needed. Jack should the one who gets to make the call on how they should accomplish this task, but I don't say that to avoid putting tension between the two of them. They can think hard and get Maggie's attention if they need me to settle a dispute.)
Once Jack and Wanda have secured an escape route, it is time to do some damage.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby kwotski » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:05 pm

Aquillion wrote:
Chameon wrote:Buncha people have said that they didn't know you could promote units to heavies, and I'm wondering how it's gone about myself. Do you toss a bunch of steel plates / random junk onto the unit and call it good? Add muscles? Maybe their weapon is made bigger. I hope to see a hobgobwin post-heavyified picture soon, so that I can marvel at being utterly wrong as there is no physical change.
Parson promoted himself to Field Unit earlier, and there was no visual change.


He didn't look different, but perhaps significantly "the stairs got easier" - maybe the promotion made him lose his heavy attribute?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby BCCroaker » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:06 pm

If most dwagons fall and Jack cloaks the himself, Wanda etc, the Jetstone commanders may assume all the dwagons have fallen.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby atalex » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:26 pm

Other interesting points not yet touched on:

1. The tower doesn't just provide a spell bonus -- it also "stores" spells which can then be spent by casters without using their own juice. Interesting. Perhaps Vanna was drawing upon the stored juice when she cast That Spell Which Cannot Be Named. She said it took two turns worth of juice which never made sense to me since she clearly had some juice left after casting it. But if she meant that it took nearly all her own juice for the turn plus an equivalent amount from the tower, then the statement makes more sense. Kingworld would be a lot more balanced if, in addition to its other limitations, it literally took more juice than a single caster (or even linked casters) could expend, and thus it could only be cast from towers with large amounts of stored juice.

2. Poor Ossomer looks utterly morose. He plainly expects to die any second now at the hands of his own brother and father once they realize how boned they are. And to me at least, he also looks distraught at having deceived his family into not realizing how boned they are. Given how deeply affected Parson was at sending Bogroll out on a suicide mission (even though Bogroll actually expressed his desire to die saving Parson's life), it bothers me that Parson would send Ossomer out on a suicide mission under these circumstances virtually as an afterthought. They've never even spoken by so much as thinkagram.

3. Then again, I probably have more emotionally invested in Ossomer than anyone else on the forum, for reasons which not even I understand. Probably because I feel sorrier for Ossomer's imminent fate than I have for any obviously doomed character since Webinar. Literally every character who interacts with Ossomer at this point seems to have a visceral contempt for him (except possibly Trem, who holds out some hope of turning him), and at this point, he's practically a Woobie.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Wakky » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:27 pm

Chameon wrote:

Buncha people have said that they didn't know you could promote units to heavies, and I'm wondering how it's gone about myself. Do you toss a bunch of steel plates / random junk onto the unit and call it good? Add muscles? Maybe their weapon is made bigger. I hope to see a hobgobwin post-heavyified picture soon, so that I can marvel at being utterly wrong as there is no physical change.


The standard GK troops are skelles, gobwins, hobgobwins, twolls, and spidews. I have a theory that if GK promotes hobgobwins to heavies then they will become twolls. I'm sure this will cost a fortune, but GK has shmuckers to spare for this one.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby MarbitChow » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:38 pm

Wakky wrote:The standard GK troops are skelles, gobwins, hobgobwins, twolls, and spidews. I have a theory that if GK promotes hobgobwins to heavies then they will become twolls. I'm sure this will cost a fortune, but GK has shmuckers to spare for this one.


I think it's more like upgrading "infantry" to "heavy infantry". You increase their attack and defense, lower their move, they keep their experience, etc.
Gobwins and Hobgobwins are races: they had a hobgobwins but no gobwins.

-----

Regarding off-turn attacking: Units with zero move cannot cross zones in the city. Nothing prevents them from attack a unit in the same zone. Attacking the yellow dwagons doesn't make the other units able to attack, since they (and their attacks) can't cross zones. Only gravity can make a unit cross from air-space to corridor.

-----

Regarding Targetting the unlead units: I think this is just a case that it's easier to get more kills (and thus decrypt fodder) by taking out weaker units, and unlead units would not be getting warlord bonuses for being in-stack.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:53 pm

About making decrypted infantry look like JS infantry - how far does a warlord's leadership extend within the Atrium? Can Duke Antium order all JS infantry to stand down and identify the fake JS infantry by seeing who doesn't obey orders?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby mp122984 » Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:05 pm

atalex wrote:Other interesting points not yet touched on:

1. The tower doesn't just provide a spell bonus -- it also "stores" spells which can then be spent by casters without using their own juice. Interesting. Perhaps Vanna was drawing upon the stored juice when she cast That Spell Which Cannot Be Named. She said it took two turns worth of juice which never made sense to me since she clearly had some juice left after casting it. But if she meant that it took nearly all her own juice for the turn plus an equivalent amount from the tower, then the statement makes more sense. Kingworld would be a lot more balanced if, in addition to its other limitations, it literally took more juice than a single caster (or even linked casters) could expend, and thus it could only be cast from towers with large amounts of stored juice.


Actually, this has come up before. It looks like this is a somewhat common tactic - load up a tower with Shockamancy spells and light up attackers in your airspace. Sort of like using the tower itself as a cache of scrolls. It makes me wonder if it would be possible to trap the inside of the tower the same way.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Infidel » Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:08 pm

atalex wrote:2. Poor Ossomer looks utterly morose. He plainly expects to die any second now at the hands of his own brother and father once they realize how boned they are. And to me at least, he also looks distraught at having deceived his family into not realizing how boned they are. Given how deeply affected Parson was at sending Bogroll out on a suicide mission (even though Bogroll actually expressed his desire to die saving Parson's life), it bothers me that Parson would send Ossomer out on a suicide mission under these circumstances virtually as an afterthought. They've never even spoken by so much as thinkagram.


err. Ossomer has no understanding that Parson is awesome, and doesn't think he's deceiving anyone. "I know little of him to be frank. I am told..." people keep on telling him how awesome Parson is, but Ossomer will only believe it when he sees it. Ossomer knows that Parson is a 2. And he's naturally a bit incredulous that a 2 could be a better warlord than a 6 or a 10.

Also, why would it surprise you that Parson would have a harder time sending a friend to do a suicide mission than a complete stranger? Not that I'm admitting that Parson sent Ossomer on a suicide mission.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Sieggy » Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:56 pm

So . . . we have the 'heavies fall' exploit to get from airspace to ground level. Once on the ground, given that Trem has evacuated the Atrium (Courtyard), GK forces now hold one zone in the Garrison hex which gives them the capacity to attack both the Tower and the Dungeon. Having taken and held that zone, why can't the remaining airborne units (I'm thinking Archons in particular) then ground themselves? They're not really expending move in that they're going from one zone they control (Airspace) to another zone they control (Atrium). They're not going from a friendly hex / zone to a contested one, they're moving freely in their own controlled spaces. Even if the non-falling forces can't ground, taking shelter within the Atrium would give them some cover, and there should be alcoves, balconies, etc for them to find shelter beneath.

And . . . I can seriously see Parson, once the plan has been executed and combat has been joined, stepping down as CWL and letting Ossomer's bonus kick in. Once the foodfight has started, the GK units will need all the bonuses they can get. And Ossomers is a LOT better than Parson's. This also makes Parson something less of a target should he go through the Portal to JS. Remember, as far as anyone other than Trem & Slately are concerned, Parson is just a big potatoman with no visible stats. A warlord looking at him would probably just be confused - his innate IFF system would not mark him as an enemy, which is an exploit of which Parson could take advantage. ("WTB? Who and/or what are you?!? <Gaaaaack>")

I'm looking forward to seeing how Jack's Foolamancy plays out. It ought to be amusing.

I'm also wondering if the bounty that Charlie offered for dead Archons will be sufficient to promote Trem to Heir. If so, then Slately is even more toasted than before.

Edit: and that's the THIRD that Trem has expressed a wish to confront Parson face-to-face. That settles it - Parson is going in!!!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Dr Pepper » Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:56 pm

YEE-HAW!

<3stooges>(running in place, slapping self) Whoop! Whoop! Whoop!</3stooges>

Of course, it's so simple only a genius could have figured it out:

Heavy is a classification. And all this time we were imagining huge barrels of hardtack and gateraide appearing as a ration distribution to weigh down the dragons. But no!

Rob has done it again.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Ace » Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:05 pm

I just want this battle to get going. The way things are I just feel we'll still be seeing last panels with "now, time for a food fight" a month from now. I also don't see why Dwagon's can't be decrypted if Archons can, nor why some people doubt GK's chances here

Potentially all the heavy falling units will survive, and 1/3 of the Dwagons and forces mounted by non-Hobgobwins will survive. another 1/3rd potentially be healed, and then they decrypt all the fallen atrium units and move outwards from there. Before anyone knows what's going on, they've decrypted half the city.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Nihila » Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:20 pm

Sieggy wrote:So . . . we have the 'heavies fall' exploit to get from airspace to ground level. Once on the ground, given that Trem has evacuated the Atrium (Courtyard), GK forces now hold one zone in the Garrison hex which gives them the capacity to attack both the Tower and the Dungeon. Having taken and held that zone, why can't the remaining airborne units (I'm thinking Archons in particular) then ground themselves? They're not really expending move in that they're going from one zone they control (Airspace) to another zone they control (Atrium). They're not going from a friendly hex / zone to a contested one, they're moving freely in their own controlled spaces. Even if the non-falling forces can't ground, taking shelter within the Atrium would give them some cover, and there should be alcoves, balconies, etc for them to find shelter beneath.
I think that the rules apply to unfriendly cities, which means that GK would have to take the Tower and Dungeon to ground their troops. If they took those, they would be able to land safely.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 48

Postby Sieggy » Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:15 pm

Nihila wrote: I think that the rules apply to unfriendly cities, which means that GK would have to take the Tower and Dungeon to ground their troops. If they took those, they would be able to land safely.


mmmm . . . is there Canon on that anywhere? In a matter of moments, GK will control one zone of the Garrison hex, which will then allow them to mount attacks on the Tower & Dungeon (which, I suspect, is about to be pincered between the newly grounded GK forces and Parson emerging from the Portal), thanks to Trem's evacuation order. Moving to a zone within a single hex that you currently hold should not expend move. But we'll see . . .

And I'm kind of wondering if any of the flying units could cancel their flight action and voluntarily and just take a fall? Especially if, say, they fell into the waiting arms of one of the already grounded units? (I can just see the sergeant getting mobbed when he says "OK, youse Hobbos, I need volunteers to catch Archons!") Or onto the backs of one of the already grounded Dwagons . . ? Just NOT a pile o' cwap. Anything to reduce the probability of death/injury.
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