Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

[build6]

wow, six pages already? I read the klog post before I boarded my flight and whoosh, there it goes.

anyways - the thing that struck me was the bit about: "toward having a side with zero (or positive) upkeep" - man, Parson's brain simply cannot stop looking at ways to "hack" the system, no? I think that's the real difference between the Erfworlders and Parson - all of them just seem to accept the world as "it is the way it is", and live "within" it (beyond maybe a little idle speculation as to whether their "scores" matter etc.).

Parson ... "he's always lookin' for an angle"

[Sieggy]

Unless there's some sort of weird mechanic where if an archer fires, the arrow has a given probability of hitting, and it's flight path is convoluted accordingly (sort of like the dookies), the Archons should be able to take cover from the archers by
1) getting directly above the roof of the tower, along the concavity of the cupola where they can be affected by the spell defenses, but not the archers
2) drop to the outside of the Atrium walls, under the eaves of the roof (where I would think there would be less chance of the spellcasters getting them), or
3) drop inside the Atrium through the holes in the roof and seek refuge against the under the roofline of the facing wall of the Tower (where they really would be pretty much immune from anything other than archers foolish enough to hang out a window and try firing upward).

I'm assuming the Tower wall facing the interior of the Atrium has windows & openings for the Archers to fire through, so the GK units inside the Atrium will still be subject to fire once the archers redeploy. However, this effectively prevents volley fire, and the archers are forced to snipe.

BTW, but how many archers did JS have? Unless I miss my guess, all of their archery units are now arrayed on the Tower portico. If all their heavies are now fleeing the Atrium, the JS ground & artillery forces are completely isolated from one another.

BUT . . . I've been trying to think like Parson, and it's scary. Consider this . . .

If Parson wants to use the Red Dwagon breath weapon in a truly ruthless manner, blow flames in on the upper levels, through the window openings. Fire the Tower to prevent the casters & archers from getting to the windows to shoot at them, but leave the ground floors untouched. After all, Parson needs a way out of the Dungeon.

Once you get a fire going below the top level, ain't nobody up there goin' nowhere doin' nuthin', and they'll be runnin' out of time, fast. If you have the entrances to the Atrium blocked with acid dookies and bubblegum plugs, and holding it with a sizable force, the ground units outside (who have no siege with them) are effectively out of the game, at least for the remainder of the turn. Which leads to the following . . .

Parson doesn't have to BEAT them, he just has to PIN them. The Royals, casters, and archers would be trapped on top of a burning building with no way out for more than a very select few (so, how are those morale and loyalty checks doing . . .?). The ground forces would be trapped outside the garrison hex, where they are utterly useless for the remainder of the turn, or at least until it was too late. And Parson would take the Dungeon by simply walking through the Portal. By definition, he would then hold two of the three zones, and the occupants of the third zone are now facing certain, immediate, unstoppable death. Unless . . . This makes for an excellent bargaining position.

At that point, Parson will be the ones to dictate terms. He has flying units which can both block any airborne escape attempt (though I'd be willing to bet that the jetpack would be too fast to stop), and offer a rescue to any unit wishing to surrender . . . and anyone wishing to surrender had best do it quickly, before the fire get to you!

IOW, Trem will still have the opportunity to negotiate with Parson, only this time it will be Parson who is in the position of strength. A complete turnabout - Slately, Tem, Ace, Cubbins, all of them will be at Parson's mercy, and time will be running out . . .

[Algrokoz]

"Let's do lunch" indeed

dude, you (and well Rob too) just blew my mind. I thought people were grasping at straws but given the very pun-y humor of erfworld, i'd have to agree that this is what they are doing.

[Happydork]

I wonder if GK will get the rations from harvesting the dragons even though they will decrypt them? If this is a tactic the Titans didn't expect, there would be no clause which would prevent this.

[ftl]

Well this move is certainly a surprise. Looks like we're about to find out what "Food Fight" means after all.

I'm still stumped at what exactly the plan is, though. Like others have noted, the dwagons and hobgobwins won't turn into rations until Gobwin Knob's next turn, so there's no clear benefit to croaking them all.

The benefit is that it croaks them all immediately, at the same time, making them all fall to the ground.

Wanda can't decrypt them while she's still in the airspace, and I have extreme doubt that you can be considered "mounted" if your mount is no longer alive. Which means she's going to drop from her current, rather high, position...

I think that's the point. Wanda, and everyone else who was on a dwagon, is going to fall down to the ground. She doesn't *want* to decrypt them in airspace - maybe she could, but she and everyone else want to get out of airspace and to the ground where they can do real damage and take the city.

and like it was observed on the last discussion thread, no matter what bonuses she's able to give herself, that's going to carry one big damn risk of croaking outright.
Not to mention that Jack carries the same risk... just personally, I want Jack to survive. I like him!

Well, that might have been the "it might not work" part. Parson might be taking his luck with Wanda and Jack falling; if they both have healing scrolls, or maybe Wanda has a luckomancy scroll, they could have pretty good odds of surviving. Perhaps better odds than if they'd stayed in airspace and got shot with lots of arrows.

And, also, the Archons and Ossomer are now stranded in the Airspace completely on their own. Not only does it basically screw them, but it makes emptying Spacerock's Airspace very easy for Jetstone now. Which, given the mountable Unipegataurs, gives Slately an easy exit even if the tower falls.

The easy exit doesn't matter much. If the Garrison falls, then GK has won the day - that's what matters to Parson. If they get to the point where they're worried about "the enemy is escaping" rather than "how do we escape?" that's a good position to be in.

Plus, there's still the issue of taking the tower. If Wanda survives and is able to decrypt the dwagons, I somehow doubt the grounded dwagons will be able to enter the tower.

Well, the siege dwagons could still shoot the tower while grounded. Also, that giant atrium-full of infantry, which the dwagons could kill and then Wanda could decrypt, those can enter the tower.

And they can't take off, because then they'd be moving from the Garrison to the Airspace, which takes us back to the original problem.

The original problem is that they were stuck in airspace with no way to get to the enemy that was shooting at them. On the ground, they don't have that problem.

The best I can see is that they'll hold the Garrison

Do you mean the Atrium? Because once they hold the Garrison, that's it, the city is captured.

and keep Jetstone's remaining ground forces at bay while the rest of the Gobwin Knob forces and the new Decrypted attack the Tower... assuming that the Atrium is, in fact, the only entrance to the tower.

Why would it matter if the atrium is the only entrance to the tower? It probably isn't. It doesn't need to be.

And even if that's possible, taking the tower is going to be a slow and painful grinding session for Gobwin Knob, no matter what kind of ground force they can put together, even if Wanda does survive and start Decrypting. Even if Gobwin Knob can do it, it's going to take them ages and cost a lot of units,

But it's still better than the alternative, which is getting croaked in airspace, which will also cost them a lot of units, but without the benefit of taking the city.

and meanwhile the Jetstone leadership and casters have that handy-dandy exit window now that all the dwagons are croaked, and the Archons are defenseless against the Tower Defences.

Yeah, the archons are gonna all dust. But why do you keep going on about the exit window? If the casters and leadership run away, that's awesome for GK! That means they take the city!

The only possible advantage I see in this is giving Gobwin Knob a single, synchronised drop that Jetstone won't see coming.

The advantage is that it gets all the troops on the ground, to croak the dudes in the atrium, and lets Wanda and Jack do whatever they need to do to minimize their chance of croaking from the fall.

[CaesarVH]

such a short update, but what a great one!

We can see here
A) beautiful artwork
B) you can order troops to turn.. he makes his own units, JS units, and *harvests* them for JS presumably so they have enough upkeep, but either way making them able to cross the zone barrier... then he decrypts as the heavies and his casters land...
awesome!

also:

more more more!

also:

I can smell the key lime pie already

[Kelon]

Well this move is certainly a surprise. Looks like we're about to find out what "Food Fight" means after all.

I'm still stumped at what exactly the plan is, though. Like others have noted, the dwagons and hobgobwins won't turn into rations until Gobwin Knob's next turn, so there's no clear benefit to croaking them all.

I'm still stumped why people dont read the critical phrase "can only harvest non-talking heavies", thus you cant harvest the hobgobwins. They were turned into heavies so their mounts could go down without being croaked, not to be killed.

[Trotsky]

If Parson wants to use the Red Dwagon breath weapon in a truly ruthless manner, blow flames in on the upper levels, through the window openings. Fire the Tower to prevent the casters & archers from getting to the windows to shoot at them, but leave the ground floors untouched. After all, Parson needs a way out of the Dungeon.

Once you get a fire going below the top level, ain't nobody up there goin' nowhere doin' nuthin', and they'll be runnin' out of time, fast. If you have the entrances to the Atrium blocked with acid dookies and bubblegum plugs, and holding it with a sizable force, the ground units outside (who have no siege with them) are effectively out of the game, at least for the remainder of the turn. Which leads to the following . . .

Parson doesn't have to BEAT them, he just has to PIN them. The Royals, casters, and archers would be trapped on top of a burning building with no way out for more than a very select few (so, how are those morale and loyalty checks doing . . .?). The ground forces would be trapped outside the garrison hex, where they are utterly useless for the remainder of the turn, or at least until it was too late. And Parson would take the Dungeon by simply walking through the Portal. By definition, he would then hold two of the three zones, and the occupants of the third zone are now facing certain, immediate, unstoppable death. Unless . . . This makes for an excellent bargaining position.

At that point, Parson will be the ones to dictate terms. He has flying units which can both block any airborne escape attempt (though I'd be willing to bet that the jetpack would be too fast to stop), and offer a rescue to any unit wishing to surrender . . . and anyone wishing to surrender had best do it quickly, before the fire get to you!

IOW, Trem will still have the opportunity to negotiate with Parson, only this time it will be Parson who is in the position of strength. A complete turnabout - Slately, Tem, Ace, Cubbins, all of them will be at Parson's mercy, and time will be running out . . .

This all assumes fire works as it does on earth and doesn't require a constant attack from a fire based unit to spread.

[effataigus]

I've been thinking about the restacking inconsistency, and so far all I can come up with that holds water is either:
a) There was no time to restack (pretty flimsy)
b) Weak types fall faster/Red's can carry heavies (unlikely), or
c) Parson did advise Wanda to restack accordingly, and she is ignoring him so that she'll be assured of decrypting all the most powerful Dwagon units.

d) The future steps of the plan require certain dragons unique abilities, so keeping them alive now ensures future availability.

e) Re-stacking may be done off-turn.. changing mounts may only be done on the ground or in combat, though? (Or maybe what the barbarian did to change mounts had a chance of failure that was just fairly low for her due to her high level?)

e) is such a stretch that I think we can discount it until we get evidence that contradicts the current status quo (which is all but a 100% guarantee they can do it).

About E (which I actually think is the most likely. How would you get from one dwagon to another? You would have to jump.), Jillian jumped off a mount and had a second one catch her. I'm not sure having the hobgobwins and other units jumping around from mount to mount would be subtle enough to go unnoticed and unquestioned.

I believe Wanda orders a mid-air mount swap for some dooders in this update... which I read to mean that this is a safe maneuver out of combat:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -04-03.png

[Trotsky]

About E (which I actually think is the most likely. How would you get from one dwagon to another? You would have to jump.), Jillian jumped off a mount and had a second one catch her. I'm not sure having the hobgobwins and other units jumping around from mount to mount would be subtle enough to go unnoticed and unquestioned.

I believe Wanda orders a mid-air mount swap for some dooders in this update... which I read to mean that this is a safe maneuver out of combat:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -04-03.png

Fair enough.

wow, six pages already? I read the klog post before I boarded my flight and whoosh, there it goes.

I find it great that this was the first sentence on the seventh page.

[CelebrenIthil]

I'm still stumped why people dont read the critical phrase "can only harvest non-talking heavies", thus you cant harvest the hobgobwins. They were turned into heavies so their mounts could go down without being croaked, not to be killed.

People do not read.
I've been around since half of page one and the same questions keep getting asked and same answers keep being given but who takes the time to read earlier pages?
I think it's time for me to let this thread go because I'll likely try to punch in the mouth the next person questioning why the Dwagons were harvested.
And there will be another.

[Trotsky]

Just because I've always wondered what it would be like to be bunched in the mouth through the internet, why were the dwagons harvested? Does Parson just like teh dwagon stew?


And now I wait.

[nth]

Crackpot theory number 12:

This plan works. Wanda decrypts the dragons, and takes the city. And then uses the city as a capital site to start a new side, with the entire army (including the now decrypted dragons) obeying all of her orders.

I believe this theory have been mentionned quite a few times already and often met the same argument against it:

It wouldn't suit well the whole "Fate wants all tool united" dogma very well...

Wanda is fully able to manipulate Stanley (so she doesn't need her own side), starting her own side would probably only make her an easier target for her detractor.

We don't even know if non-heir can start their own sides.

I can think of at least one sequence of events that would plausibly lead to Wanda turning:

Charlie (via thinkagram): "Wanda! Congratulations! I understand you want all the tools united on one side. Let me make you an offer: I get Jillian to come back, bringing Ansom and that turnamancer, which you can use on Parson. In exchange, I just want you to kill and decrypt Jillian. That way, you get them both under your thumb where they belong. Also, don't tell anyone about our agreement, and I'll make sure the rest of erfworld lines up for you to decrypt them, one by one. Even Stanley, so the hammer will be back on your side in no time."

Charlie (via thinkagram): "Jillian! I hate you! Thanks to you, Jetstone did fall, and now Wanda is in charge there. Go see her and say hello."

Charlie (via thinkagram): "Tramennis! I'm so sorry you didn't listen to me, but I've got a job to keep you financed for now, so you can survive as a barbarian, and maybe retake your kingdom. I want to employ your diplomatic skills to get *everyone* to pile onto Wanda, all at once. This nonsense has gone on long enough, and she's a danger to us all. She even killed and decrypted Jillian, when Jillian showed up under a flag of truce. That was probably Parson's idea, so we'd better let my angels take care of him..."


I'm not saying this *will* happen, but I think it's far from certain that Wanda's own motivations couldn't be used to turn her, especially if Charlie made the case that the dish is more powerful than the hammer, and therefore they had a better chance of uniting the tools together, than apart.

[Ansan Gotti]

As for d) I have a hard time seeing why the pinks and (especially) the yellows are going to be extra valuable. The yellow's have used their one trick, now that the battle is from the atrium outwards, their acid crap attack is of minimal importance. On the other hand the Reds and Purples attacks are of huge importance (all the Jetstone units are now in the city, meaning they won't disband when they kill Slately, which is great news for GK).

Given the update here:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -04-03.png

I think the most reasonable explanation assumes as a premise that they were clearly planning for absorbing the attack and a relatively standard battle plan, which would put the hobs on the weaker dwagons (and warlords on stronger). Once Parson gave his plan, either:

1) They didn't want to remount again so close to the battle commencing, out of fear they would tip off the enemy that something was up; or

2) They just forgot. As any gamer of a complex game can tell you (and as you probably know yourself), having a master plan is one thing, executing on every single fiddly little piece of the plan is another thing. I play some very complex games, and even though I usually do pretty well at them, I am always kicking myself for one nuance or another that I could have enacted, but either didn't see in time or forgot about.

[Sieggy]

This way, everybody falls down together. And it will probably happen so fast that Trem will just stand there stunned and shocked with horror at what just happened, so that he'll fail to realize that it WASN'T mass suicide, and order the casters & archers to open fire.

Once everyone falls to the ground (that's the 'sploit - one big splat, no waiting around for stragglers), Wanda decrypts those who didn't make their saving throws (assuming Wanda makes her own saving throw), Jack tosses heals as needed to those who did (unless he didn't make his throw, in which case he's decrypted), they take and hold the Atrium which is being evacuated per Trem's orders, and that allows them to mount an attack on the Tower. Then the fun begins.

[danielkaplan123]

I'm just wondering why now? Perhaps foreshadowing or is it possible Parson is blogging to get Charlie off the right trail?

[Ansan Gotti]

I'm just wondering why now? Perhaps foreshadowing or is it possible Parson is blogging to get Charlie off the right trail?

It's a past klog from a past situation room hypothetical with Jack. It just happens to have great relevance to the current situation (and the story).

On another note, I am betting the next page is going to show PARSON reaching out to TRAMENNIS, with some distracting Jonestown-like psyops and Toolist suicidal talk, or something, to delay the attack.

[Sieggy]

On another note, I am betting the next page is going to show PARSON reaching out to TRAMENNIS, with some distracting Jonestown-like psyops and Toolist suicidal talk, or something, to delay the attack.[/quote]
More likely Ossomer will be used as a distraction. After all, he's right there, and both Trem & Slately have an emotional attachment to him. And . . . the Klog entry DID talk about how you could order your units to turn . . . I see treachery on a Titanic scale coming up, and Ossomer going down in Erf history as the arch-betrayer . . .

[Lamech]

So I have a question, two actually:
One why isn't Wanda mounted on a dwagon with a hobgob for this? Well assuming that those are safer falls at least. It would keep Wanda nice and safe...
Two: What ever happened to the elf brands that died at gobwin knob? Especially the ones that can heal. Those would seem to come in very handy here...

[joosy]

So I have a question, two actually:
One why isn't Wanda mounted on a dwagon with a hobgob for this? Well assuming that those are safer falls at least. It would keep Wanda nice and safe...
Two: What ever happened to the elf brands that died at gobwin knob? Especially the ones that can heal. Those would seem to come in very handy here...

One. She is taking the Fast Food express red plate special down. I would assume that means that falling via heavy vs harvest is equally risky or else she is taking a leap of 'fate' on her survival. Also - I think they just had one rider per dwagon anyway.

two. As I said before they are loading up Santa's sleigh with my prezzies if they know whats good for them.