Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby Fug » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:14 am

dmorenus wrote:
Foolamancer wrote:
TheMutant wrote:At first I was sure that Jack and Wanda's scrolls were definitely Healomancy, but maybe that isn't the case. Maybe they can be used to reduce damage or somehow shield themselves- remember, if Wanda croaks, the plan falls on its face, and it doesn't seem like Parson to rely on chance to determine that she won't die instantly from the fall (though I'm sure Wanda's pretty confident about that. Fate and so forth.)


They are Healomancy.


Jack's scroll is Healomancy. Nothing is stated about Wanda's scroll.



Maybe Wanda's scroll is Luckamancy to decrease the chance that she will have the worst outcome from falling.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby valce » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:19 am

I'm confused. Why does he need to harvest them? Why not let the tower kill them? They'll fall anyway, and they can do some damage before they die. Is there something else I've missed? Parson can't be that worried about tower units gaining a few levels...
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby Fug » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:21 am

Maybe harvesting gives them more control with respect to the timing if they do it themselves. If they wait there would be a chance Wanda would get hit and then its game over.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby Sieggy » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:22 am

I don't think Trem would make the 'harvest' connection. From his perspective, he's watching mass suicide. Which means the Toolists are some kind of hideous cult . . . I think the shock, horror and confusion will give Parson the few seconds he needs, especially if Ossomer suddenly repents, repudiates the Awful, Terrible Toolist Heresy and asks forgiveness, weeps in shame for having been part of such a travesty, and begs his father to accept him back into his puffy little bosom once more, etc, etc. IOW, misdirection. Keep Trem and Slately occupied long enough to secure the Atrium, decrypt the Dwagons, and then cut loose with everything.

Ossomer, will of course, get dusted, but hopefully not before he's distracted everyone for long enough . . .
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby Fug » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:27 am

Sieggy wrote:I don't think Trem would make the 'harvest' connection. From his perspective, he's watching mass suicide. Which means the Toolists are some kind of hideous cult . . . . .


I agree- I think that makes the most sense.

On my conjecture that only "weak" dwagons can't carry heavy units I wonder if a blue or red with two riders that had one rider promoted to heavy would also fall? It seems like that would be a better way to have stronger dwagons survive but maybe they need to spread their riders out to make sure all the dwagons are harvested. On the other hand maybe they have a reason for keeping "live" pink and yellow dwagons or the pictured hobgobwins being on weak dwagons is a red herring. I wonder if pinks could use their gum to "fix" the holes in the ceiling and block falling arrows?
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby joosy » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:34 am

valce wrote:I'm confused. Why does he need to harvest them? Why not let the tower kill them? They'll fall anyway, and they can do some damage before they die. Is there something else I've missed? Parson can't be that worried about tower units gaining a few levels...


Well then they would have heavy Hobgobwin and their dwagon mounts on the ground and the rest in the airspace waiting for Jetstone to off them. Also, the riders may be croaked for sure, not just maybe croaked if they use the fall exploit.

Basically this procedure allows GK to maintain control of the situation while Jetstone stands around all royal like.

I imagine Ossomer will just fly down and jump from the flying carpet assuming that Trammenis doesn't react in time to order the tower defenses to croak him.

I am curious why the hobgobwins only targetted unled infantry in the atrium after the ceiling was opened up. Are they trying to maximize the amount of potential leadership they can convert or does part of Parson's plan need as few auto-attacking units as possible in the atrium? We will see.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby dmorenus » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:37 am

Fug wrote:On my conjecture that only "weak" dwagons can't carry heavy units I wonder if a blue or red with two riders that had one rider promoted to heavy would also fall? It seems like that would be a better way to have stronger dwagons survive but maybe they need to spread their riders out to make sure all the dwagons are harvested. On the other hand maybe they have a reason for keeping "live" pink and yellow dwagons or the pictured hobgobwins being on weak dwagons is a red herring. I wonder if pinks could use their gum to "fix" the holes in the ceiling and block falling arrows?


I think that off-turn they aren't able to switch riders around, maybe even not without landing first, and that the hobgobwins being some of the less-valuable units were just largely on weaker mounts. Remember this whole plan came into being after GK's turn ended with them already mounted in enemy airspace. They were configured for a conventional battle, not this food fight.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby Fug » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:38 am

joosy wrote:
valce wrote:
I am curious why the hobgobwins only targetted unled infantry in the atrium after the ceiling was opened up. Are they trying to maximize the amount of potential leadership they can convert or does part of Parson's plan need as few auto-attacking units as possible in the atrium? We will see.



I figured they targeted unled infantry because they would be the easiest to croak (and therefore leaving bodies for decryption) given that they don't have their warlord's bonus added on. I assume this was the significance of Duke Lacrosse being said to have left his stack. The more units they croak the more units they have to decrypt for the fight in the immediate future. We saw that Antium was hit but survived so maybe targeting leadership wouldn't be the best idea.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby Fug » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:41 am

dmorenus wrote:
I think that off-turn they aren't able to switch riders around, maybe even not without landing first, and that the hobgobwins being some of the less-valuable units were just largely on weaker mounts. Remember this whole plan came into being after GK's turn ended with them already mounted in enemy airspace. They were configured for a conventional battle, not this food fight.


No they can restack off turn- they did already after their turn ended in one of the text updates.

edit: also in text update 11 duncan mentions a hobgobwin knight on a blue.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby ShaunHay » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:42 am

Do dwagons count as heavy units? You could have some of the dwagons mount other dwagons... i.e. heavy unit riding a flying mount falls. That way you can get the riderless dwagons to the ground, and without killing them (maybe).

Kinky...


edit: Oh and obligatory ... "first post" ...
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby Ansan Gotti » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:44 am

It seems likely to me that they are harvesting rather than attacking regularly because dwagons have a ton of hit points, while someone like, say, Jack, would only do tiny amounts of damage with each attack. It would take him forever to croak the thing regularly. This is a move that needs to be coordinated and take effect close to simultaneously, for maximum surprise and impact.

As for why they're not sucking up damage in the kill zone, the reason is that arrows and magical attacks seem quite indiscriminate in their targeting, and so even with screening stacks, the danger to Wanda (the only target of irreplaceable value) increases with every moment she stays in the air. Better to get her to the ground with as many corpses as possible to decrypt, as quickly as possible.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby Ace » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:06 am

I've been thinking about the restacking inconsistency, and so far all I can come up with that holds water is either:
a) There was no time to restack (pretty flimsy)
b) Weak types fall faster/Red's can carry heavies (unlikely), or
c) Parson did advise Wanda to restack accordingly, and she is ignoring him so that she'll be assured of decrypting all the most powerful Dwagon units.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby Ansan Gotti » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:09 am

Ace wrote:I've been thinking about the restacking inconsistency, and so far all I can come up with that holds water is either:
a) There was no time to restack (pretty flimsy)
b) Weak types fall faster/Red's can carry heavies (unlikely), or
c) Parson did advise Wanda to restack accordingly, and she is ignoring him so that she'll be assured of decrypting all the most powerful Dwagon units.


Sorry, not sure I understand the inconsistency you're referring to?
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby arcseed » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:13 am

FaustiiGoethe wrote:
Llelldorin wrote:
Allsardane wrote:
Spoiler: show
order Ossomer to turn, as per the cut-off first sentence of the klog. That might distract Trem just long enough.


I smell another sploit over there...
Decrypts units are completely loyal to wanda and the arkenpilers like religious zealots...

If she orders a unit to turn to another side. What happens to that unit loyalty ?
Something tells me that the units still being completely loyal to wanda and the arkenpillers.

So its possibly to play dirty war over a side :D


I don't think that works. Loyalty, remember, is a numerical value that represents how likely a unit is to "defect or double-deal". There's no mechanism for a unit having loyalty to someone besides its current ruler. (Jillian, of course, has always been a ruler, and not a subordinate unit.)
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby Ace » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:17 am

Ansan Gotti wrote:
Ace wrote:I've been thinking about the restacking inconsistency, and so far all I can come up with that holds water is either:
a) There was no time to restack (pretty flimsy)
b) Weak types fall faster/Red's can carry heavies (unlikely), or
c) Parson did advise Wanda to restack accordingly, and she is ignoring him so that she'll be assured of decrypting all the most powerful Dwagon units.


Sorry, not sure I understand the inconsistency you're referring to?


Well, if the hobgobwins are being made heavies instead of using the croak/fall mechanic that the others are all using, then assumedly that's because there's an advantage to doing so... that there is a chance of survival, possibly a good chance, and that you can then use the Dwagons who "fall" twice... once until they die in battle, and once after (once decrypted). In which case, the HG's should all be on the best Dwagons, not the worst...
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby Ansan Gotti » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:18 am

Ace wrote:Well, if the hobgobwins are being made heavies instead of using the croak/fall mechanic that the others are all using, then assumedly that's because there's an advantage to doing so... that there is a chance of survival, possibly a good chance, and that you can then use the Dwagons who "fall" twice... once until they die in battle, and once after (once decrypted). In which case, the HG's should all be on the best Dwagons, not the worst...


Aha. Yes, I think that's a very good point.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby Hidden Sanity » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:11 am

Ace wrote:I've been thinking about the restacking inconsistency, and so far all I can come up with that holds water is either:
a) There was no time to restack (pretty flimsy)
b) Weak types fall faster/Red's can carry heavies (unlikely), or
c) Parson did advise Wanda to restack accordingly, and she is ignoring him so that she'll be assured of decrypting all the most powerful Dwagon units.


d) The future steps of the plan require certain dragons unique abilities, so keeping them alive now ensures future availability.

e) Re-stacking may be done off-turn.. changing mounts may only be done on the ground or in combat, though? (Or maybe what the barbarian did to change mounts had a chance of failure that was just fairly low for her due to her high level?)
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby Ace » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:18 am

e) is such a stretch that I think we can discount it until we get evidence that contradicts the current status quo (which is all but a 100% guarantee they can do it).

As for d) I have a hard time seeing why the pinks and (especially) the yellows are going to be extra valuable. The yellow's have used their one trick, now that the battle is from the atrium outwards, their acid crap attack is of minimal importance. On the other hand the Reds and Purples attacks are of huge importance (all the Jetstone units are now in the city, meaning they won't disband when they kill Slately, which is great news for GK).
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby atalex » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:23 am

badninja wrote:Why do I think that Stanley will not be happy. Parson has found an interesting idea and one that Jetstone will not see coming. Charlie is totally right about Parson he is very dangerous and should never be underestimated. The battle will be one that may send a very unusual message to everyone around GK that to win will be a challenge. i wonder if Vinny will not try his coup now he is seeing almost first hand the danger of opposing GK and if he tries he could loose his side as GK drops by.


I think Stanley will be furious, even if Parson takes Jetstone completely, if the cost is several score dragons ignominiously croaked by their own riders. So far in Book 2, Stanley hasn't done anything to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I think he may be overdo for doing so.

Also, I think you mean Caesar in the last sentence. Vinny is back in Faq, oblivious to the fact that his girlfriend is bringing home his best friend and her ex for a threesome. As for Caesar, I think he's too single-minded to be swayed from a coup. From his perspective, GK would have been completely destroyed if only the Wack from Faq had done her job. Not saying the coup will necessarily be successful, but I don't see Caesar backing down out of fear of GK's awesome might, particularly since Caesar would probably be inclined to withdraw from the RCC2 anyway, and might well favor a non-aggression treaty with GK.
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Re: Book 2 – Parson’s Klog 003

Postby atalex » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:28 am

╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:
Yosarian wrote:Crackpot theory number 12:

This plan works. Wanda decrypts the dragons, and takes the city. And then uses the city as a capital site to start a new side, with the entire army (including the now decrypted dragons) obeying all of her orders.


I believe this theory have been mentionned quite a few times already and often met the same argument against it:

It wouldn't suit well the whole "Fate wants all tool united" dogma very well...

Wanda is fully able to manipulate Stanley (so she doesn't need her own side), starting her own side would probably only make her an easier target for her detractor.

We don't even know if non-heir can start their own sides.


The only way I see Wanda turning away from Stanley at this juncture is if something happens to make allying with Charlie feasible, an outcome that has been foreshadowed. Wanda wants to join all the Arkentools, and Charlies resources would greatly assist in that. Charlie wants to keep his secrets. He'd probably also love to have zero-upkeep Archons. If the two did ally and then march against GK, it would be represent a threat to Erfworld that dwarfed anything GK has done so far since Book 1.
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