Book 2 – Page 49

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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby oslecamo2 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:34 pm

Kyrt wrote:
Since dawn "impossible" things have been hapening one after the other.


You've not actually named one thing that is actually considered impossible. Kingworld would be the closest...but that was facilitated by a Trimancer link.

Now you're just being unfair. If magic shenigans are "possible", then so are movement abuses.

Kyrt wrote:
I'm not even talking about Hamster having crushed the coalition with 25:1 odds, I'm talking about what Trems saw with his very own eyes. It's simply foolish of him to go "What's the worst that could happen?"

Without the impossible happening? Given GK can neither move nor attack? JS has to replace more arrows that it expected.

Or...
-Riders whose mounts die fall.
-Mounts can be harvested by the riders.
-harvesting counts as killing.
-Both rider and mount body falls.
-Riders have 1/3 chance of still being able to fight, 1/3 of being incapacitated.
-GK has two mancers with healomancy scrolls.
-One of those mancers can instantly decrypt dead bodies.
-?
-OH TITANS WHAT HAVE DONE? SHOOT! FIRE AT WILL!

It's not impossible by any real means. It's just another rules shenigans. That's just as hard to predict as an army deploying dual casters to attack a capital, or tri-mancer combos, or behind the scenes intrigues. Shame on Trems for not doing his homework on flying Erfworld physics 101. He instantly understood that Charlie was behind Haggar's change of heart, but as a ground-battle specialized warlord he knows little of air maneuvers.

Basically, Trems has been presented with several rules shenigans during that day, none of wich he was able to spot beforehand. It's foolish of him to think that, with GK stuck on the airspace, they're not gonna pull another rule shenigan if just left on the air to their devices.

Kyrt wrote:Things ARE that bad for GK. Without that supposedly impossible off turn move, GK are dead. Noone, not even Parson, is denying that.


On the contrary, like Jack pointed out, other people would think "How can we not lose?". Hamster thinked "How can we still kick their asses now?"
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby multilis » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:45 pm

The worst that could happen from Trems standpoint was Charlie had a deal with Hagar to wipe out JS as soon as JS wiped out GK. (Charlie makes $$$, Hagar takes out hated enemy)

That was less impossible/more likely than Parson, and Charlie so far had pulled more impossible this turn than Parson so he would be feared as well.

Charlie already has pulled similar stunts, such as "offer he couldn't accept" that prevented an easy JS win in book 1

(Trem is nearly bankrupt, surrounded by potential enemies, lots of ways to lose, lots of ways to be surprised. Getting cash and enemies to fight each other rather than taking turns fighting you would seem good strategy for a diplomat, and Charlie seems motivated to finish off GK)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Kyrt » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:58 pm

oslecamo2 wrote:Now you're just being unfair. If magic shenigans are "possible", then so are movement abuses.


Magical Shenanigans are "part of the game". Movement abuses are not.

-Riders whose mounts die fall.
-Mounts can be harvested by the riders.
-harvesting counts as killing.
-Both rider and mount body falls.
-Riders have 1/3 chance of still being able to fight, 1/3 of being incapacitated.
-GK has two mancers with healomancy scrolls.
-One of those mancers can instantly decrypt dead bodies.
-?
-OH TITANS WHAT HAVE DONE? SHOOT! FIRE AT WILL!


Simple and obvious after the fact....like most good exploits. Like most good exploits, most players won't see it in time. That most players won't see it doesn't mean such players are dumb, stupid, ignorant of the rules or anything else.

Not that it matters....JS only hope was to shoot GK down before Parson became CW. Shooting them down after he laid out his plan? That would save him the bother of harvesting some mounts.

Basically, [i]Trems has been presented with several rules shenigans during that day


He's been presented with exactly NONE. Kingsworld isn't a rule exploit....its the result of what appears to be a caster link, with one of the casters involved potentially being a Master Thinkamancer attuned to an Arkentool. Such links are known to exist, such links are within the rules, such links are extremely powerful. Magic is also within the rules of the game.

Off turn movement is not. Parsons linked several game effects to provide the movement bonus he wants. He has after all been trying to game the system for the past few dozen turns.

It's foolish of him to think that, with GK stuck on the airspace, they're not gonna pull another rule shenigan if just left on the air to their devices.


Off turn movement is considered impossible. They can't attack across zones. They are within range of enough archers to wipe them out. They have no Trimancer link set up to perform the "impossible". They cannot move. They cannot fight.

And as I said before, another "rule shenanigan" implies that one has been done before.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby build6 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:07 pm

Lamech wrote:Position of strength? I'm sorry what strength? Not unless he is offering them Wanda and the Pliers. He wants to offer them two dozen or so turns of dwagon taming, and Jack. And for this pitance he asks GK not eliminate their side, retaking the arkenpliers and probably quite a few casters.
So we got a deal of AN ENTIRE SIDE, in exchange for, Jack and two dozen turns of production? Yeah right, if they offer Wanda I'm sure Tram can work out something good, but a few dwagons and a caster isn't a position of strength. So if he wants to be diplomatic he should lay off the insults.

He needs the best deal he can get and insults don't help with that. And worse after treachery from both Jillian and Queen Bea, the RCC doesn't have a stunning record of not attacking during parleys or other truces. So its not a big leap to go from "Tram isn't dealing in good faith he wants to insult us." to "Tram isn't dealing in good faith he wants us vunerable" So again he should really lay off the insults.


a) did you transpose RCC and GK? because I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here
b) position of strength, yes. in any conventional, no-Parson-involved battle, a side in GK's position is doomed. absolute no-survivors wipe-out. So yes, position of strength. And given the choice of getting something back vs getting nothing back, some sides might have cut a deal. We now know that if any of us are ever facing you, Lamech, in a battle, we should just wipe you out and not bother talking :-P, but personally, I'd talk :-)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby oslecamo2 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:11 pm

Kyrt wrote:
oslecamo2 wrote:Now you're just being unfair. If magic shenigans are "possible", then so are movement abuses.


Magical Shenanigans are "part of the game". Movement abuses are not.

So forcing your oponent to end the turn is all fair and square, but skydiving is stinky cheese? This reader disagrees with that vision.


Kyrt wrote:Simple and obvious after the fact....like most good exploits. Like most good exploits, most players won't see it in time. That most players won't see it doesn't mean such players are dumb, stupid, ignorant of the rules or anything else.

Movement has just a few rules. Magic is divided in more than a dozen of schools each with dozens of effects and then you can combine them in bi and tri links for titans-know how much more effects. It's ridiculous to claim that Trems knows all possible magic combinations, but never wondered what can be do with movement rules.
Kyrt wrote:Not that it matters....JS only hope was to shoot GK down before Parson became CW. Shooting them down after he laid out his plan? That would save him the bother of harvesting some mounts.

It would matter if they aimed at Wanda first.

Kyrt wrote:
Basically, Trems has been presented with several rules shenigans during that day


He's been presented with exactly NONE. Kingsworld isn't a rule exploit....its the result of what appears to be a caster link, with one of the casters involved potentially being a Master Thinkamancer attuned to an Arkentool. Such links are known to exist, such links are within the rules, such links are extremely powerful. Magic is also within the rules of the game.
Off turn movement is not. Parsons linked several game effects to provide the movement bonus he wants. He has after all been trying to game the system for the past few dozen turns.


Explain me, [i] if Trems and the other warlord had time to look trough the millions things Erf magic can do, would it kill them to look over the dozen or so possible combinations from movement?

This is, that's like decorating every book on science out there... And then don't learning proper math. Then somebody gives you a situation where you have to divide by zero and s**** happens.

Conclusion is, since Trems doesn't properly know how movement works, he knows even less of how magic works. So be it harvesting-falling or time-stoping, they're all unpredictable moves as far as JS cares.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Oberon » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:13 pm

Kyrt wrote:
-Jillian makes GK's turn end out of nowhere.
Trimancer links ARE indeed possible and powerful...and there are none in play on GKs side here.
This is exactly the kind of thinking that gets your Side ended. I've been accused of expecting Tram to react differently because I have the readers information. And here we have Kyrt also using his readers information to defend Tram from having to worry about a trimancer link on the part of GK. Does Jetstone know that GK can't pull out the same dirtamancy trap they pulled before? Or any other potent casting which will again turn the tides of battle? Where is any evidence for that? Did you just miss out on the single-caster, to all appearances, Kingworld (*ptui*) event? That was an "impossible" event that just happened, right next to the Jetstone King. For the Jetstone cause, this time. Without which event, Jetstone would have ended during the GK turn. Hell, Jillian has enough move to return, and the same Turnamancer is with her now. Why not be concerned about that possibility? Even without the Turnamancer, Jillian's forces appear to be enough to turn the tide of the battle. Any concern about that? And rather than be at all concerned that the situation may change yet again, Tram is casually insulting the people he should be earnestly bargaining with. Who he supposedly wants to be earnestly bargaining with, according to his own words while planning with his father to do, what? Insult the man he needs to seal a bargain with? Idiocy! Trying to turn his brother? More idiocy! If he wants Ossomer, simply make that a condition of the bargain, and get down to terms! Doesn't Tram think that anything he offers GK must be acceptable to them? If so, then demand it. If not, then why offer insults? It is idiocy no matter which side you look at it from. Insulting Stanley, even by proxy? Sheer idiocy! Perhaps cheeseaholic can handwave away politeness as being unimportant in matters of state, but that is a very naive opinion.

And please don't follow up with "GK doesn't have a Turnamancer", or "Sizemore isn't there", that would be rather pathetic.

There is clearly no convincing someone who is such a fan of a character that any excuse at all for that characters idiocy is deemed to be adequate. It's like listening to a broken record: "Tram can't be considered to be an idiot, look how diplomatically he turned down a potentially potent device of which he knew nothing about! Clearly, the man is a skilled statesman!" or any other irrelevant factoid. Those facts may be true, but they don't excuse Tram for holding the idiot ball.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Oberon » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:33 pm

Kyrt wrote:NOTHING he could have said or done would have prevented that. Hes talking with Ossomer. He needs to speak with Parson.
He was speaking with Parson. And if he wasn't aware of that fact, then he is an idiot. Even Ansom the dumb jock was well aware of even fringe use, combination of powers required capabilities of archons, remember the DDR? If Tram isn't also aware, or isn't operating on that awareness, you can either accept that he is an idiot or you can call out plot by fiat. There is no middle ground here.

And as for there being NOTHING Tram said which could have prevented the yellow poop-storm, that is an assumption which can never be tested. If Tram had opened with "Listen, brother. I want to offer GK an alliance. Shall we discuss terms?", well, Parson may have gone ahead with the plan, or he may have accepted a way out that didn't require gambling everything on the chance of Wanda dying from a fall. And the speculation about that could occupy another 22 pages.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Lamech » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:37 pm

a) did you transpose RCC and GK? because I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here
b) position of strength, yes. in any conventional, no-Parson-involved battle, a side in GK's position is doomed. absolute no-survivors wipe-out. So yes, position of strength. And given the choice of getting something back vs getting nothing back, some sides might have cut a deal. We now know that if any of us are ever facing you, Lamech, in a battle, we should just wipe you out and not bother talking , but personally, I'd talk
Umm... did you miss the update were tram said GK could eliminate the RCC, even without the dwagons and what not? GK isn't doomed the RCC is. In a no-parson battle the dwagons, archons and casters trapped in spacerock would be doomed, but GK? GK is not doomed there still gonna win this war.
GK may lose a battle, but the war is still theirs, and they can still destroy Jetstone. Basically we have Jetstone offering to trade a few dwagons and Jack for everything that Jetstone has. That deal is clearly unbalanced.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby the_tick_rules » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:05 pm

He was hoping that GK would be too afriad of lossing Wanda and her decrypted following her into oblivion that they wouldn't think that far ahead. As good a deal as he had to make really.
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby fjolnir » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:54 pm

He doesn't have As much time as he needs, He doesn't even have all the time in a day A TURN is defined in the wiki as "a portion of a 24 hour day assigned to your side"(paraphrased, C/P from wiki in spoiler) he has a portion of a 24 hour day (night takes time so let's assume an ~18 hours of day total) GK has already taken their turn leaving whatever portion of time in the day left for the RCC2 to do their thing.

Tre-faboo has decided that his HOURS of time will be spent doing 4 things: 1.Slaughtering the ground units of GK 2. Getting as many of his units home as possible and set them up to help repel an air assault. 3. Negotiations and Parley with his ruler, charlie, and GK respectively 4. Slaughtering GK's air units if he can't convince them to merely leave

Remember we have eyes on both sides, Tre-faboo has no idea what the scroll the foolamancer is holding is. He thinks he's coming in from a position of strength since in EVERY other instance that an air force has found itself with no move outside a hostile city, it has been slaughtered. He's baiting an adversary that until recently he had a familiar and probably slightly jocular relationship with. He is. as I previously mentioned is the shortcoming of ALL erfpeoples we've seen constrained by his inborn knowledge of the rules of the world he lives in. Besides in most scenarios (as in every one where decryption is not an option) all a fall like this would do is allow the heavies from somewhere else(I failed to notice if there were any cloth golems in the atrium) to come out and Curbstomp the forces that just had the misfortune of ending up in the courtyard, backed up by any surviving infantry that fled the courtyard . The only way the trick that was just pulled is ANYTHING besides an example of mass suicide is with decryption.


Spoiler: show
Each day is divided up into a series of Turns, and each Side gets a single Turn per day. There is a natural turn order, resulting in a cyclic turn order. (Eg. Side A will always move before Side B, who will move before Side C, then night will pass and Side A moves again.) Note that alliances affect Turn order.

If multiple Sides ally, they take turns simultaneously, on the Turn of the last ally. For instance, using the example above, if Side A allies with Side C, then Side B will take Turn before Sides A and C, who take Turn simultaneously. If Sides A and B ally, they will both still take Turn before Side C, but they will do so simultaneously instead of consecutively.[1]

(the 24 hour day comes from when Maggie, Parson, and Sizemore are getting drunk and discussing time. This appears to be the hard limit on how long you can delay your turn.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby OneHugeTuck » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:58 pm

Did someone say KINGWORLD?

YES! Let's get that topic rolling again!


GO KINGWORLD!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Channel Lock » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:10 pm

At this point we know what is happening and that Wanda didn't die, so I think the only question worth asking is "What is Parson going to do when he runs through the Magic Kingdom"?

The tactics of the battle Wanda will conduct is straight forward. She will decrypt all the corpses produced by either side and add those troops to her side. There was a post a while back where Ansom and Wanda were attacking a city, and Ansom was talking about all the combat bonuses they got. That demonstrated how Wanda and the pliers apply a huge bonus to any decrypted troops in her stack, or her hex. So she is obviously going to multiply GK's forces by decrypting them. This is a powerful combat multiplier, and should provide GK with substantially more force than first appears. If JS has any hope of winning, they have to overcome that and produce an overwhelming kill ratio, dusting more than 2 units for every one that is croaked. That will be hard, considering the bonuses Wanda and the Pliers have to bring. However with the dollmancer healing the cloth golems, and the dittomancer doubling leadership and special's, it may be possible for JS to win... or not. I wish I had a bracer to calculate the win chance. In any case, we can expect a few things. We can expect that JS will try to build "max stacks" of heavies using all possible bonuses (remember that some of the heavies are wounded from the infantry fight earlier). This will mean that they will have their top leadership (Tram) in a stack with the dittomancer and possibly the Dollmancer with all the best units, and this stack will do their best to croak Wanda while she does her best to generate more decrypted and slow them down. The main weakness of the JS plan is that it will leave Stately mostly undefended but "safe" in the tower where nothing can attack him directly with the battle in the atrium.

Parson wants to go to the battle either simply because he needs it ethically, or because he needs it tactically. Either way, we know he's going through the MK now. I see two potential areas for drama. First what happens when he gets to MK, and then what happens when he goes through to JS. Here is my conjecture.

When Parson gets to the MK, there will be some kind of "encounter" with the local casters where they will try to stop him, and Parson will learn something interesting about Efrworld magic and what it can do. Ultimately I think Janis will save his butt again (she did go see a predictamancer last time we saw her). She will "peace out" (or something like that) and avoid/diffuse the conflict, allowing Parson to get to his objective and jump through into the Garrison of JS.

When Parson gets to JS, he will provide a mild bonus to all the units in the hex (city) because the Chief Warlord is now in the hex. This change will instantly alert Tram what is happening... All his enemies will get a bonus they didn't have before. At this point Tram will have all his available units in the Atrium fighting to beat the Decrypted attackers. I doubt that Parson's bonus will be all that significant, since Parson has crappy leadership, but it will be noticed. I think Parson intends to use his magic items and personal status as a heavy unit to go croak Stately himself (maybe with help from Maggie and/or Sizemore). And I suspect Tram will figure this out as soon as he sees the new bonus appear. Then there will be some kind of race to get back to protect/save King Stately (and maybe the jetpack will get used for an escape). The Jetpack is the chekhov's gun at this point.

Here's another interesting question. What if Parson has to cast the healing spell on Wanda? We know he is a caster because Janis told us he was a hippymancer, but can he use scrolls?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Kyrt » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:43 pm

oslecamo2 wrote:So forcing your oponent to end the turn is all fair and square, but skydiving is stinky cheese? This reader disagrees with that vision.


Not arguing fairness....magic is part and parcel of the gameworld. Movement abuses are not. Kingsworld was not an exploit but a result of a caster linkup - a known game mechanic that is seen as powerful.

Movement has just a few rules. Magic is divided in more than a dozen of schools each with dozens of effects and then you can combine them in bi and tri links for titans-know how much more effects. It's ridiculous to claim that Trems knows all possible magic combinations, but never wondered what can be do with movement rules.


In this case, all Tram has to know is one thing....off turn movement is forbidden/impossible/can't be done. He's right. And Parson isn't going to move his forces.

He's going to harvest them for food. Exploit....easily overlooked.

It would matter if they aimed at Wanda first.


As I said...JSs only hope was to shoot GK down before Parson became CW. After that, he took steps to make that difficult.

Explain me, [i] if Trems and the other warlord had time to look trough the millions things Erf magic can do, would it kill them to look over the dozen or so possible combinations from movement?[/


Imagine a rulebook for Erfworld. Look up the movement section. You want to know what I think it'll tell you about off turn movement? That it can't be done. Parson isn't moving his forces...hes exploiting several different mechanics in order to bypass what appears to be a know physical rule....you can't move off turn; but you can harvest your mounts for food. Tram shouldn't be considering the movement rules at all...he needs to be considering the logisitics rules and cross referencing them with both falling and zone boundaries.

And what do you mean...."if Trems and the other warlord had time to look trough the millions things Erf magic can do"? They know Magic can do powerful things...they know GK isn't in a position to exploit any of those.


Conclusion is, since Trems doesn't properly know how movement works, he knows even less of how magic works. So be it harvesting-falling or time-stoping, they're all unpredictable moves as far as JS cares.


Tram very likely does know how movement works. And falling and harvesting. He probably ahs a far better understanding of magic than Parson does as well.

Parson, however, is trying to game the system. Tram is not. Parson is looking for ways around Erfworld rules. Tram accepts them just as we accept the Law of Gravity.

Oberon wrote:And here we have Kyrt also using his readers information to defend Tram from having to worry about a trimancer link on the part of GK."


With two casters available in hex? Neither a thinkamancer? The big questions here are 1: Is a thinkamancer needed? Thinkamancers after all, are what streamline the other casters thoughts and casting processes ( the Thinkamancer's function was something like "cognitive copilot," managing the other caster's mental functions, focusing his attention and boosting his energy to achieve better results than the caster could alone.) and would almost certainly be needed for Trimancy links and 2: its range - was Charlie able to be absent because he had an Arkentool? Can such links cross zone boundaries? Do they affect spell ranges?

Thinkamancers are needed. There are none in the hex and GKs casters aren't linked.

That was an "impossible" event that just happened, right next to the Jetstone King.


And who JS likely knew was linked....since it appears the King and Charlie spoke.

Why not be concerned about that possibility?


Because, as far as the events in story are concerned, Jillian is a wild card. She may or may not return. But she isn't there now.

And rather than be at all concerned that the situation may change yet again, Tram is casually insulting the people he should be earnestly bargaining with.


If Jillian returns...and theres no reason for Tram to expect her...the situation may indeed change. It'd be easier to wipe GK out. And Trams style has been covered before. As pointed out he would "very much like his brothers back". But again, while theres rooms to negotiate, the simple fact is that he is in an apparently dominant position and hes dictating terms. He is probing Ossomer and his reactions, he is determining if turning him is possible or likely, he is getting information on Parson. He isn't doing a "lets be equals" gig.

He was speaking with Parson.


Looked like Ossomer to me.

If Tram had opened with "Listen, brother. I want to offer GK an alliance. Shall we discuss terms?", well, Parson may have gone ahead with the plan, or he may have accepted a way out that didn't require gambling everything on the chance of Wanda dying from a fall. And the speculation about that could occupy another 22 pages.


And perhaps five minutes of talking with Ossomer would have had them reach that point. After all, its not like GK can DO anything. They can't move.

I think you are placing WAY too much emphasis on what is, in Trams eyes, a minor attack that ultimately does little if any harm to his city and troops. Its is JSs turn...it doesn't matter how long it takes Tram to reach the point he wants to ultimately get to. GK can't move, escape or fight and if GK wants to force the destruction of their only viable means of attack, no matter how limited, in the current situation, so be it.

Tram has priorities which he wants to address...we know this. He wants his brothers back. He wants to take advantage of Charlies deal. He wants JS safe. He wants to secure his sides future. And so on.

And you think hes stupid because his opening dialogue seem to be probes to test his brothers loyalty to GK and to get info about Parson instead of a "lets get down to it right now, we've no time to waste on pleasantries". That he should keep his opinion of GK and Stanley a secret despite the fact Ossomer knows him and his views quite well? That he should crawl to GK begging for an Alliance or treaty?

I disagree. Ossomer knows him well. Hiding his opinions is thus a futile gesture. Opening with probes to determine Ossomers loyalty to GK and gain info on Parson..who he'll probably eventually have to talk to directly is also a decent tactic because it means he won't be going in fully blind or reliant on Charlies info when he speaks with the warlord he really needs to speak with. And he has, in his eyes, all the time he needs because his turn likely won't end prematurely.

So what if Parson decides to bomb the atrium? Cities can be repaired and the troops are largely expendable. Thats what they are for and he was already looking to disband some. Its gains GK absolutely nothing doing so. Bombing the tower made sense...there are archers there and that was wheer the parley was to be held. Bombing the atrium? Attacking the only target he can while he can even while it gains him nothing?

Lamech wrote: did you miss the update were tram said GK could eliminate the RCC, even without the dwagons and what not?


And read by many as "could"...not "will". The current events will weaken GK if JS wipes the strike force out. They'll lose a powerful strike force, Wanda, Jack, several warlords and the Pliers. But that doesn't mean Tram necessarily sees GKs victory as still assured...just that the outcome will be in much more doubt.

Basically we have Jetstone offering to trade a few dwagons and Jack for everything that Jetstone has. That deal is clearly unbalanced.


What we have is JS offering to trade a peace for large elements of GKs strike force. The alternative is a war GK could very well lose (and which JS can't truly afford). Returning GKs forces to it largely intact keeps them relatively powerful, and secures a border against them.

It is a reasonable starting offer.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby zilfallon » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:51 pm

cheeseaholic wrote:...attempting to turn his brother...


If Tram thinks he can just turn Ossomer with words, then he really deserves being called an idiot :D

He's not using flowery diplomatic language. No. He also doesn't have to.


I believe that it's common sense to not insult someone if you are begging for your existence. "Hey you booping boophole, please don't kill me, retard!" won't work out well. And don't tell me that Tram is being rude just because he's negotiating from a position of strength, because he is NOT. He knows that Jetstone is weaker than GK. Hell, he knows that GK is stronger than the entire RCCII. When you're asking such a power to spare you, you don't start with insults. Jetstone is the side which needs this parley, not GK.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby SomeUnregisteredPunk » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:01 pm

zilfallon wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:...attempting to turn his brother...


If Tram thinks he can just turn Ossomer with words, then he really deserves being called an idiot :D

He's not using flowery diplomatic language. No. He also doesn't have to.


I believe that it's common sense to not insult someone if you are begging for your existence. "Hey you booping boophole, please don't kill me, retard!" won't work out well. And don't tell me that Tram is being rude just because he's negotiating from a position of strength, because he is NOT. He knows that Jetstone is weaker than GK. Hell, he knows that GK is stronger than the entire RCCII. When you're asking such a power to spare you, you don't start with insults. Jetstone is the side which needs this parley, not GK.



But Tram was in a position of Strength. From the his viewpoint... he could easily destroy GK's power... all of their warlords in one swoop.
... The collective night of GK's forces is stronger than Jetstone but that collective might is still on the other side of the bridge while the warlords and Wanda is stranded helpless in front of his tower. He knows that they can not get away from him and that his tower has more than enough power to destroy them all. From his point of view there is nothing they can do but to accept his terms or die.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby zilfallon » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:05 pm

SomeUnregisteredPunk wrote:
zilfallon wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:...attempting to turn his brother...


If Tram thinks he can just turn Ossomer with words, then he really deserves being called an idiot :D

He's not using flowery diplomatic language. No. He also doesn't have to.


I believe that it's common sense to not insult someone if you are begging for your existence. "Hey you booping boophole, please don't kill me, retard!" won't work out well. And don't tell me that Tram is being rude just because he's negotiating from a position of strength, because he is NOT. He knows that Jetstone is weaker than GK. Hell, he knows that GK is stronger than the entire RCCII. When you're asking such a power to spare you, you don't start with insults. Jetstone is the side which needs this parley, not GK.



But Tram was in a position of Strength. From the his viewpoint... he could easily destroy GK's power... all of their warlords in one swoop.
... The collective night of GK's forces is stronger than Jetstone but that collective might is still on the other side of the bridge while the warlords and Wanda is stranded helpless in front of his tower. He knows that they can not get away from him and that his tower has more than enough power to destroy them all. From his point of view there is nothing they can do but to accept his terms or die.


Didn't you read what Tram said? He said that GK could still crush the entire coalition even if they lose their air-force, including 2 casters and pliers. GK forces at Spacerock have no hope (from Tram's mistaken point of view), but that's just a battle, not the entire war depends on that battle. That's not a position of strength.

Oh, it IS a position of strength, if you think that being strong means "about to win a battle but ultimately lose in long-term"

From his point of view there is nothing they can do but to accept his terms or die.


Tram isn't thinking this. As I said before, the situation is: "GK accepts Tram's terms or JETSTONE dies" as Tram thinks.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Kyrt » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:14 pm

zilfallon wrote:I believe that it's common sense to not insult someone if you are begging for your existence.


He isn't. Hes trying to arrange a Treaty which will guarantee as much a spossible JS future. At this point in time....he has the upper hand. He doesn't want the war as theres a good chance GK will still win. But thats not the same as thinking "I'm doomed".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Kyrt » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:18 pm

[quote="zilfallon"!]Oh, it IS a position of strength, if you think that being strong means "about to win a battle but ultimately lose in long-term"[/quote]

He's about to win the battle but then engage in war which he may or may not win. Not win the battle and then engage in a war with certain defeat.

Tram isn't thinking this. As I said before, the situation is: "GK accepts Tram's terms or JETSTONE dies" as Tram thinks.


Yes...and others are seeing this as "GK accepts Tram's terms or JETSTONE gets involved in a war it has a good chance of losing" - an outcome Tram would prefer to avoid. Hes not negotiating knowing that he'll lose a war....he's negotiating knowing that he'll be in for a long, costly war which his side may lose. GK loses Wanda, etc anyway...but retainign a powerful strike force and their warlords is still a sizeable boost.

Right now, Tram has all the cards...GK will lose the battle, Wanda, the Arkenpliers, their warlords and a powerful strike force if they don't parley and come to some form of agreement. Tram has time to explore various options and do what he can to probe his brother for information - it is after all, still JSs turn and GK is essentially unable to do anything. He has leverage...GKs strike force is a valuable asset... but that also means hes not going to destroy it unnecessarily.

He's not in a position where hes begging for survival. He is not currently a diplomat. His "opponent" - his brother - knows him and his opinions well; theres no point trying to hide those feelings behind sweet platitudes.
Last edited by Kyrt on Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby SomeUnregisteredPunk » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:26 pm

zilfallon wrote:
SomeUnregisteredPunk wrote:
But Tram was in a position of Strength. From the his viewpoint... he could easily destroy GK's power... all of their warlords in one swoop.
... The collective night of GK's forces is stronger than Jetstone but that collective might is still on the other side of the bridge while the warlords and Wanda is stranded helpless in front of his tower. He knows that they can not get away from him and that his tower has more than enough power to destroy them all. From his point of view there is nothing they can do but to accept his terms or die.


Didn't you read what Tram said? He said that GK could still crush the entire coalition even if they lose their air-force, including 2 casters and pliers. GK forces at Spacerock have no hope (from Tram's mistaken point of view), but that's just a battle, not the entire war depends on that battle. That's not a position of strength.

Oh, it IS a position of strength, if you think that being strong means "about to win a battle but ultimately lose in long-term"

From his point of view there is nothing they can do but to accept his terms or die.


Tram isn't thinking this. As I said before, the situation is: "GK accepts Tram's terms or JETSTONE dies" as Tram thinks.


"we are in a position of great leverage here. we are about to recover the arkenpliers, and therefore stop all this "decryption" witchery. the war changes today. ends in some senses. but they are still a terribly powerful side. Gobwin Knob could still eventually crush the coalition, even without the ability to decrypt our fallen."
quoted from panels 8 and 9 from http://www.erfworld.com/page/12/

yes. that is a position of strength. By killing wanda and taking her pliers they stop GK's military from acquiring new forces.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby oslecamo2 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:51 pm

Kyrt wrote:
Conclusion is, since Trems doesn't properly know how movement works, he knows even less of how magic works. So be it harvesting-falling or time-stoping, they're all unpredictable moves as far as JS cares.


Tram very likely does know how movement works. And falling and harvesting. He probably ahs a far better understanding of magic than Parson does as well.

Parson, however, is trying to game the system. Tram is not. Parson is looking for ways around Erfworld rules. Tram accepts them just as we accept the Law of Gravity.


And this is where your point fails. We (at least me) don't "acept" the law of gravity. I was presented a multitude of evidence, experiences, tests and mathematics to back that up. That's why we call it a law. Because it was extensively tested over all kind of situations and isn't broken.

A much better comparison would be believing it's that the Sun goes around the Earth in circles. It looks that way at first glance, and it keeps looking that way if you don't look closer... But if you examine carefully, you eventually discover it's the Earth going around the Sun, and it's on elipsoides, not perfect circles.

So yes, Trems is an idiot for believing whatever they tell him and don't testing his knowledges. Hamster is smart for testing the stuff around him and seeing how things really work. And you claiming that people blindly acept the laws of Physics, completely disregarding the centuries of hard work of countless people over the course of centuries, it's an insult to Humankind.
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