Book 2 – Page 49

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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Oberon » Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:55 pm

Kyrt wrote:
Oberon wrote:And here we have Kyrt also using his readers information to defend Tram from having to worry about a trimancer link on the part of GK."
With two casters available in hex? Neither a thinkamancer?
I specifically provided examples why bringing up number or type of casters would be pathetic, and you decide to exercise that uselessness rather than converse on useful topics.
But I'll try to help you again: How many casters did it take to end the GK turn? Frame your response only from the point of view of Tram. Having answered that question (correctly, I'll hope), how many casters does Tram need to be very afraid of? Hint: The answer is the same number. If the Jetstone turn ends, Jetstone ends. Haste does have a value, when you need to accomplish some things before you die.
Kyrt wrote:He [Tram] is probing Ossomer and his reactions, he is determining if turning him is possible or likely, he is getting information on Parson. He isn't doing a "lets be equals" gig. [...]And perhaps five minutes of talking with Ossomer would have had them reach that point. After all, its not like GK can DO anything. They can't move.
He doesn't need to play all "let's be equals" to make an attempt to prevent a foolish action from a hoped-for ally who is most likely be thinking that using his units to deal the most possible damage before they are killed is their best use, right now. This is from Tram's perspective, you understand. And having that perspective, only an idiot does not take the necessary steps to prevent that foolish action. Only an idiot decides "Let them tantrum, we'll just tack it on in reparations." They can't move, but they can attack. A smart diplomat could have prevented that attack. No "probing" of Ossomer is necessary to the goal of forming an alliance with GK. All it takes is for a smart diplomat who holds the upper hand to actually communicate his terms, and not take 5 minutes of indulgence to insult the opponent while they are still capable of doing his side harm.
Kyrt wrote:I think you are placing WAY too much emphasis on what is, in Trams eyes, a minor attack that ultimately does little if any harm to his city and troops.
And I think that you feel that using words such as "minor" attack and "little if any" makes the fact that the atrium roof has been destroyed and Jetstone troops are being killed look minor. If you think that allowing an enemy to destroy parts of your city and kill your troops is minor compared to that not happening, then it makes perfect sense that you don't find Tram's failure to prevent that attack to be an example of "holding the idiot ball."
Kyrt wrote:Tram has priorities which he wants to address...we know this. He wants his brothers back. He wants to take advantage of Charlies deal. He wants JS safe. He wants to secure his sides future. And so on.

And you think hes stupid because his opening dialogue seem to be probes to test his brothers loyalty to GK and to get info about Parson instead of a "lets get down to it right now, we've no time to waste on pleasantries". That he should keep his opinion of GK and Stanley a secret despite the fact Ossomer knows him and his views quite well? That he should crawl to GK begging for an Alliance or treaty?
Yes, actually. You have summarized it perfectly. When your opponent knows your opinion, there is no need to express it. When you can demand any unit in the coming barter, there is no need to "probes to test his brothers loyalty to GK." When you want to prevent damage to your city, you do come to the point quickly. And finally, calling Tram's opening insults to both Ossomer and Stanley "pleasantries" is really rather ridiculous.
Kyrt wrote:So what if Parson decides to bomb the atrium? Cities can be repaired and the troops are largely expendable. Thats what they are for and he was already looking to disband some. Its gains GK absolutely nothing doing so.
How can this be more foolish? You use completely circular logic... "Well, we were going to have to disband some units anyway, so it doesn't matter that they were killed" Except you were looking for a payout from GK, right? One which would have put you in the position of NOT having to disband any units. So no matter how little you care about your units, having some is still better than not having some. Every troop or warlord is an investment in turns and shmuckers, resources that it is not smart to piss away.

And the elements of a bargain have their limits. You realize this, right? Were GK to entertain negotiations, there would be an upper limit on how much they could pay to Jetstone. And it wouldn't matter if the atrium was destroyed or not, that amount would be the same. So how is it any kind of advantage to fail to prevent damage to your city? Sure, you're hoping to get some shmuckers out of GK, but wouldn't it be nice not to have to spend some of those repairing the atrium?
Kyrt wrote:What we have is JS offering to trade a peace for large elements of GKs strike force. The alternative is a war GK could very well lose (and which JS can't truly afford). Returning GKs forces to it largely intact keeps them relatively powerful, and secures a border against them.

It is a reasonable starting offer.
Sure. But does it not make sense that you'd just make that offer, rather than wasting time offering insults and failing to prevent desperate actions from the guy you're hoping to cut a deal with? If you're not holding the idiot ball, it does.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Sieggy » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:13 pm

You will recall that Japan won the Battle of Pearl Harbor. Then they lost the war. Had the Japanese called for a conference immediately after the battle, who knows . . ? There was still a very strong isolationist element in the US. And Yamamoto himself had proposed opening negotiations as soon as the Western Powers lost their ability to conduct operations within the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere". He warned the War Council that he could only guarantee 6 months of victory, after which the US industrial might would create a Juggernaut they would be unable to resist. They chose not to negotiate (and we will never know what the outcome would have been had they done so), and were crushed.

JS can defeat the GK forces before them, but would be unlikely to withstand the eventual GK forces that could be arrayed against them, as dire as their economic straits are now. Trem is thinking about the war, not just the battle.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Kyrt » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:55 pm

oslecamo2 wrote:And this is where your point fails. We (at least me) don't "acept" the law of gravity. I was presented a multitude of evidence, experiences, tests and mathematics to back that up. That's why we call it a law. Because it was extensively tested over all kind of situations and isn't broken.


Ahhh...correct me if I'm wrong....but you just pointed out you DO accept the Law of Gravity.

So yes, Trems is an idiot for believing whatever they tell him and don't testing his knowledges.


Do you personally test the Mathematics behind gravity just to make sure they are correct? Do you test them to try and see if you can find the loophole? No...you accept that there is a Law of Gravity and believe the scientists who tell you because it fits in with your own experiences. And anyone who comes up to you and tells you they have a source of negative matter with which you can bypass those laws would be crazy.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Ditto » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:04 pm

Also, Oslecamo, many many people were totally onboard with the scientifically tested and infallible idea that the Earth was the center of the universe for a goodly long time. Just because it's called science doesn't mean it's perfect. Changing your real world analogue from the Law of Gravity to Heliocentricity doesn't change that.
SteveMB wrote:The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby ftl » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:13 pm

So, is it just me, or are people arguing between two extremes - either Tram is brilliant, or he's a blithering idiot.

It seems to me like it's neither.

Tram is an Erfworlder Warlord. He's bound by the same assumptions and limitations that most of them are - thinking they know how the game works, given that they were popped with the knowledge of it. Perhaps he's more clever than average, or perhaps he's too single-minded at diplomacy, but those are minor compared to the fact that, overall, he's still working within the limitations of Erfworld-as-a-world rather than Erfworld-as-a-game-to-minimax.

It's rare for units to transcend that, to be able to see the possibility for seemingly impossible things. Parson did, because he's not an Erfworlder. Who else has remotely matched that, yet?

Charlie, maybe.

Who else? Not Ansom. Not Wanda. Not even Jack - and Jack had a whole summer of running scenarios with Parson. Nobody even conceived of anything better than sit there in airspace and get shot.

So yes, Tramennis looks pretty stupid right now. He's doing things all wrong and Parson is well on his way to squishing his city. But it's easy to look stupid when you're up against the Perfect Warlord. Tramennis looked perfectly competent when he was next to other Erf units.

Which, I think, pretty much tells the tale. Tramennis is above-average smart compared to other Erf-popped units, though he does have perhaps a bit too much of a penchant for diplomacy rather than action. He's completely unable to grasp that fighting against Parson is something wholly different - so yes, that makes him fairly stupid when he's fighting against Parson.

But in that situation, any other Erfworlder would seem just as stupid... so basically we're saying that all Erfworlders are stupid. Which is perhaps true, but not necessarily a very useful statement to make.

I don't think Tramennis is stupid, or that he's brilliant. I don't think he's stupid - he's cleverer than average, and his biggest asset is that he was popped a diplomat rather than a warrior which made him uniquely useful to Jetstone. But he's not an "outside the box" military thinker and he shares the same cognitive limitations that all of Erf seems to.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Kyrt » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:44 pm

Oberon wrote:But I'll try to help you again: How many casters did it take to end the GK turn? Frame your response only from the point of view of Tram.


At least Two. Vanna who was there and (presumably) Charlie who she was linked with....as indicated by the lack of identity and Charlie speaking through her. Given "Charlie" asked people not to speak with her, that's also indicative of a Trimancer link. Probably with Unaroyals former Changeamancer.

Would Tram know this? Maybe. Maybe not. Talking about who and why and how was involved with Kingworld would presumably be a very natural thing for Tram to discuss with his father the King. Why assume he doesn't know? Especially since he did talk with Jillian who did know. We don't know who told Tram what.

But..."Charlie, in fact, saved us all. Think of it. Without that fancy Turnamancy...."? (p37, B2)

I think Trams pretty much clued up that Charlie and Vanna had a link going on and that Charlie was behind Kingsworld.

Having answered that question (correctly, I'll hope), how many casters does Tram need to be very afraid of?


Two or three. Most likely three. One of which MUST be a Thinkamancer. I don't see any reason here to assume Tram would be an idiot.

Yes, you were hoping the answer would be one. Why assume Unaroyals Turnamancer somehow had more power than the rest...and just never used it before?

No...WE, the readers know it was a link. And so does Tram.

He doesn't need to play all "let's be equals" to make an attempt to prevent a foolish action from a hoped-for ally who is most likely be thinking that using his units to deal the most possible damage before they are killed is their best use, right now.


You think he should care. Why? First..hes a warlord. Any entreaty he makes to Ossomer won't stop Parson issuing his own orders. Also...how many Hours have passed with GK doing next to nothing? Why think Tram hopes for an ally here? He wants peace. A non aggression pact. Not necessarily alliance.

Only an idiot decides "Let them tantrum, we'll just tack it on in reparations."


And if you don't really care about what is being destroyed? Parson and GK can do little. This tantrum is essentially causing a little damage to the city and killing some troops Tram would have to disband anyway. As it is, he didn't let them tantrum...he destroyed the units who were capable of attack. A proportionate response that kept his bargaining hand intact.

A smart diplomat could have prevented that attack.


If he cared enough to try. He may or may not have been successful. But saving himself an inconvenience probably isn't high on his list of priorities.

No "probing" of Ossomer is necessary to the goal of forming an alliance with GK. All it takes is for a smart diplomat who holds the upper hand to actually communicate his terms, and not take 5 minutes of indulgence to insult the opponent while they are still capable of doing his side harm.


Except Trams goal is not alliance. Is it? Its a consideration but he does have other goals. Goals that may actually be served better by his "insults". And indeed, why give the impression hes fawning or lying?

And I think that you feel that using words such as "minor" attack and "little if any" makes the fact that the atrium roof has been destroyed and Jetstone troops are being killed look minor.


Ahh...Yes. Minor damage. Hardly worth talking about really. Why do think otherwise? Its an inconvenience. But not one to worry JS...who will be able to have the roof repaired before its actually needed, isn't under any threat of attack once the yellows are dead and now may have to disband fewer troops than it planned to.

Yes, actually. You have summarized it perfectly. When your opponent knows your opinion, there is no need to express it. When you can demand any unit in the coming barter, there is no need to "probes to test his brothers loyalty to GK." When you want to prevent damage to your city, you do come to the point quickly. And finally, calling Tram's opening insults to both Ossomer and Stanley "pleasantries" is really rather ridiculous.


So....you think he should ignore the possibility of turning his brother? That he shouldn't test to see how strong Ossomers loyalty to GK really are so soon after being decrypted? That he should not try and gain whatever information he can from Ossomer on Parson? All because he should have immediately demanded that Ossomer ask Parson not to use the yellows to bomb the atrium because he didn't want the roof damaged or his expendable troops hurt? And that, while doing this, he should have pretended to Ossomer that he had some respect for Stanley and thereby somehow decreased Ossomers and GKs feeling that he was being less than truthful?

How can this be more foolish? You use completely circular logic... "Well, we were going to have to disband some units anyway, so it doesn't matter that they were killed" Except you were looking for a payout from GK, right? One which would have put you in the position of NOT having to disband any units. So no matter how little you care about your units, having some is still better than not having some. Every troop or warlord is an investment in turns and shmuckers, resources that it is not smart to piss away.


Yes. And ultimately, the loss of a few ground troops is - to any Erfworld commander - meaningless. Troops come and troops go. But why should Tram care for cheap units? He was going to disband some of them anyway. If he could have kept them...great...if not, no big loss. More can be popped later...sooner if GK pays up. Especially since if the Treaty is signed, he'll have reparations for such units anyway so he can pop them then and there.

And the elements of a bargain have their limits. You realize this, right? Were GK to entertain negotiations, there would be an upper limit on how much they could pay to Jetstone. And it wouldn't matter if the atrium was destroyed or not, that amount would be the same. So how is it any kind of advantage to fail to prevent damage to your city? Sure, you're hoping to get some shmuckers out of GK, but wouldn't it be nice not to have to spend some of those repairing the atrium?


Well...if I can 1.1 Schmuckers for every Schmucker of damage they actually cause.....then I'd have an incentive not to actually care so much. It would actually be beneficial to a degree to let them do some damage. Theres also the point that Tram doesn't want to weaken his bargaining hand. Killing GKS forces would do that and undermine his position. Tram can now point to the yellows and use them as a reminder of what he could do, while pointing out that Parson initiated hostilities and that his response was reasonable but now forces JS to ask for additional reparations.

Sure. But does it not make sense that you'd just make that offer, rather than wasting time offering insults and failing to prevent desperate actions from the guy you're hoping to cut a deal with? If you're not holding the idiot ball, it does.


He's not hoping to cut a deal with Ossomer. He's hoping to cut a deal with Parson or Stanley. Ossomer also likely knows him and his opinions well and Trams style does appear to be snarky anyway.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Lamech » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:20 pm

But..."Charlie, in fact, saved us all. Think of it. Without that fancy Turnamancy...."? (p37, B2)
I think Trams pretty much clued up that Charlie and Vanna had a link going on and that Charlie was behind Kingsworld.
So... what your saying is that he knows that you don't need a thinkamancer in hex to link? Charlie is a merc. And if Jillian hired Charlie nothing prevents GK from doing the same. And he has complex contracts, GK might well need to sit around negotiating with him, so that would explain the delay with GK acting.
To head off some arguments: Don't claim Charlie is working with the RCC, we know that, but all Tram really knows is that he is working with Jillian; he has suspicions, but he doesn't know anything else. And yes Charlie wants GK's archons destroyed, but GK can actually get all of them, and give him one to examine.
Except Trams goal is not alliance. Is it? Its a consideration but he does have other goals. Goals that may actually be served better by his "insults". And indeed, why give the impression hes fawning or lying?
I don't see how insulting Ossomer's colors helps do anything at all. Or the taunting about being "promoted over".
Yes. And ultimately, the loss of a few ground troops is - to any Erfworld commander - meaningless. Troops come and troops go. But why should Tram care for cheap units? He was going to disband some of them anyway. If he could have kept them...great...if not, no big loss. More can be popped later...sooner if GK pays up. Especially since if the Treaty is signed, he'll have reparations for such units anyway so he can pop them then and there.
Well...if I can 1.1 Schmuckers for every Schmucker of damage they actually cause.....then I'd have an incentive not to actually care so much. It would actually be beneficial to a degree to let them do some damage. Theres also the point that Tram doesn't want to weaken his bargaining hand. Killing GKS forces would do that and undermine his position. Tram can now point to the yellows and use them as a reminder of what he could do, while pointing out that Parson initiated hostilities and that his response was reasonable but now forces JS to ask for additional reparations.
This "reperations" thing is totally absurd. Both sides will attempt to get as much as possible for their side. Each side has things to offer and things they want and eventually you come to a deal. Having fewer dwagons to offer GK, and having fewer heavies to harvest, units to defend yourself, and a more damaged capital simply mean that a) what you offer GK will be worth less by a few dwagons, and b) GK will have less trouble winning the war against you. Both of those things weaken your posistion. You won't get "reperations" you''ll get even less.
He's not hoping to cut a deal with Ossomer. He's hoping to cut a deal with Parson or Stanley. Ossomer also likely knows him and his opinions well and Trams style does appear to be snarky anyway.
Archons mean Parson is watching. He is talking to Parson.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby SomeUnregisteredPunk » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:35 pm

ftl wrote:So, is it just me, or are people arguing between two extremes - either Tram is brilliant, or he's a blithering idiot.
It seems to me like it's neither. Tram is an Erfworlder Warlord. He's bound by the same assumptions and limitations that most of them are - thinking they know how the game works, given that they were popped with the knowledge of it. Perhaps he's more clever than average, or perhaps he's too single-minded at diplomacy, but those are minor compared to the fact that, overall, he's still working within the limitations of Erfworld-as-a-world rather than Erfworld-as-a-game-to-minimax.

It's rare for units to transcend that, to be able to see the possibility for seemingly impossible things. Parson did, because he's not an Erfworlder. Who else has remotely matched that, yet? Charlie, maybe. Who else? Not Ansom. Not Wanda. Not even Jack - and Jack had a whole summer of running scenarios with Parson. Nobody even conceived of anything better than sit there in airspace and get shot.

So yes, Tramennis looks pretty stupid right now. He's doing things all wrong and Parson is well on his way to squishing his city. But it's easy to look stupid when you're up against the Perfect Warlord. Tramennis looked perfectly competent when he was next to other Erf units. Which, I think, pretty much tells the tale. Tramennis is above-average smart compared to other Erf-popped units, though he does have perhaps a bit too much of a penchant for diplomacy rather than action. He's completely unable to grasp that fighting against Parson is something wholly different - so yes, that makes him fairly stupid when he's fighting against Parson.

But in that situation, any other Erfworlder would seem just as stupid... so basically we're saying that all Erfworlders are stupid. Which is perhaps true, but not necessarily a very useful statement to make. I don't think Tramennis is stupid, or that he's brilliant. I don't think he's stupid - he's cleverer than average, and his biggest asset is that he was popped a diplomat rather than a warrior which made him uniquely useful to Jetstone. But he's not an "outside the box" military thinker and he shares the same cognitive limitations that all of Erf seems to.


i hope you realize that the people posting here are going to ignore you.
Your belief is the simplest answer under the given scenario but w/o much of an argument can be done with it. I'm sure there are people that agree with you... hell I agree with you....

but to pass the time, they'll probably ignore your idea and go for the arguable one. What is more fun, to argue or to agree?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Smoker » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:39 am

If Tram was too nice about his parley with Ossomer, Stanley/Parson might smell weakness, and realise that losing Jack and the Dwagons would be worth the long term benefit of sacking all those lovely Jetstone cities.

I think it was right of Tram to waltz up, full of cocky arrogance and snide remarks. It was rubbing GK's face in the fact that their defeat was a foregone conclusion. Get them upset and focused on this one unwinnable battle, and then off-handedly suggest that all this death is tiresome and if GK promised to give up their most dangerous toys, then JS would be willing to let them run on and play with the other kids to their hearts content.

I mean, if someone came to me on bended knee asking for an alliance, my first thought would be "You believe I can defeat you, so maybe I should look into that first." Now if that person came to me giving me the impression that they could crush me with a wave of the hand, and that my alliance was merely a matter of convenience bordering on charity, then I'd be much more likely to be swayed.

Without instilling in GK the dread of losing all their precious dwagons and their Masterclass Foolamancer (heh, Jack is an MF) its quite likely that GK will realise that long term - these things are quite replaceable. Even Jack - how hard could it be for forces like GK to capture a few Casters and have them execute a few thousand prisoners in order to level up to Masterclass? (We know that would work, because thats why Wanda had Sylvia do in Ossomer)


And for anyone who says Tram should have foreseen the harvesting exploit - that's like saying anyone who loses a game of chess is a complete idiot, because they didn't explore all the possible combinations of moves and rules. This is especially true because harvesting isn't even a combat mechanic - its just some variant on disbanding that gets you a free lunch. What type of person would try to find all the limitations on such a benign rule and then try to apply them to a combat scenario?

Answer: Only a gamer.

Conclusion: Tram is ok.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Hatu » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:50 am

SomeUnregisteredPunk wrote:
ftl wrote:But in that situation, any other Erfworlder would seem just as stupid... so basically we're saying that all Erfworlders are stupid. Which is perhaps true, but not necessarily a very useful statement to make. I don't think Tramennis is stupid, or that he's brilliant. I don't think he's stupid - he's cleverer than average, and his biggest asset is that he was popped a diplomat rather than a warrior which made him uniquely useful to Jetstone. But he's not an "outside the box" military thinker and he shares the same cognitive limitations that all of Erf seems to.


i hope you realize that the people posting here are going to ignore you.
Your belief is the simplest answer under the given scenario but w/o much of an argument can be done with it. I'm sure there are people that agree with you... hell I agree with you....

but to pass the time, they'll probably ignore your idea and go for the arguable one. What is more fun, to argue or to agree?


I've argued for the middle ground in the past and I'd still like to give Tramennis the benefit of the doubt, but it's increasingly difficult as he continues to take no particular precautions while GK takes action.

Really, it all comes back to why Gobwin Knob's situation was considered hopeless when everyone already knows that GK is still theoretically capable of attacking. At the very least, Slately and Tram knew GK could bombard the Tower (potentially decapitating Jetstone after all), and everyone knows that falling riders have an outside shot at entering a ground zone still ready to fight. Yet JS still considers the battle well in hand. Why?

To me, the situation is somewhat analogous to Chess endgames. Suppose one player had a Rook and King remaining and the other player had only his King; unless the board was in a very specific configuration, we'd generally say the player with only the King is in a hopeless situation. Theoretically, he could still capture the Rook and force stalemate, but in practice it would require extremely sloppy play by the stronger player.

To continue the metaphor, I'd like to believe Tramennis is a fairly skilled player. He might fall short of being a master (much less a grandmaster like Parson), but he should at least have studied the basic endgames well enough to know how to bring an opponent into checkmate. In that case, his confidence would be warranted, because he already knows how to neutralize those threats. Unfortunately, I see very little concrete evidence that he's considered those threats at all.

We already know of two events that Tramennis knows could still cost him the battle: letting the Yellows destroy the Tower, and allowing a large enough force to accumulate in a ground zone (via Decryption, Croakamancy, or just dumb luck) that he can no longer defeat it during his turn. Yet it took his father's prodding to move the Yellows away from the Tower, and he just ordered the evacuation of the zone directly under Wanda.

What I'd like to have seen some indication that Tram was trying to avoid these known pitfalls; that way, it would be clear that while Tram was a capable Warlord, he was simply not in Parson's weight-class. Instead, I don't see him worried about much of anything, even the death of his troops. There's a difference between a man who isn't prepared for the impossible, and a man who doesn't prepare at all. For example, Tram could have given specific instructions to target the riders *before* their mounts, or ordered Antium to remain on the ground just in case Wanda fell. Failing that, he could have expressed alarm (rather than, mere curiosity) when he saw other targets start to fall. But the point is to show that he's considering known threats, as he did when Ansom attacked JS at Expository Bridge.

It's all well and good to say that Tram shouldn't match Parson's brilliance, and I agree with that. But even if Stanley had appointed the ghost of Manpower the Temporary to Chief Warlord, GK isn't just going to sit there and die. Obviously, there's still time for Tram to give evidence of forethought in the next couple of pages (and bonus points if it's accompanied by a "V-8" sounding smack to the head!), so I'm still hopeful. But the story would have been stronger (IMO) if such evidence had been presented before Tram appeared to fall into the obvious traps. It would make the hidden traps so much more satisfying.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Kyrt » Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:15 am

Lamech wrote:So... what your saying is that he knows that you don't need a thinkamancer in hex to link? Charlie is a merc. And if Jillian hired Charlie nothing prevents GK from doing the same. And he has complex contracts, GK might well need to sit around negotiating with him, so that would explain the delay with GK acting.


And have them cast magic across zones off turn?

Don't claim Charlie is working with the RCC, we know that


Technically...he isn't.

I don't see how insulting Ossomer's colors helps do anything at all. Or the taunting about being "promoted over".


Don't believe in keeping your target off balance? Or probing him to see his reactions? Or setting up from the start who is in charge right now?

This "reperations" thing is totally absurd. Both sides will attempt to get as much as possible for their side. Each side has things to offer and things they want and eventually you come to a deal. Having fewer dwagons to offer GK, and having fewer heavies to harvest, units to defend yourself, and a more damaged capital simply mean that a) what you offer GK will be worth less by a few dwagons, and b) GK will have less trouble winning the war against you. Both of those things weaken your posistion. You won't get "reperations" you''ll get even less.


And yet, even without the yellows, JS still has a sizeable GK strike force, Master foolamancer and several warlords as bargaining chips. It also has the threat of a war which it feels it may win. Both sides will attempt to get as much as it can, but as Tram pointed out...right now, they have strong leverage over GK. Those dwagons are a heavy time investment from a number of troops alone.


Archons mean Parson is watching. He is talking to Parson.


Archons mean Parson MIGHT be watching. Trams "Then I would speak to him" and "I will be speaking with your Chief Warlord presently!" lines mean he isn't actually speaking with Parson but with Ossomer.


Hatu wrote:Really, it all comes back to why Gobwin Knob's situation was considered hopeless


Unable to move, escape, fight effectively and surrounded by 600 archers and several Tower enhanced casters which meant that their defeat was all but inevitable. Was there a chance they could win?

it's increasingly difficult as he continues to take no particular precautions while GK takes action


Hes got them surrounded and is capable of defeating that entire force with the forces he has available. They can't move, escape and they can't bomb any unit or building engaged in the parley or will be engaging them in battle should that fail.

What other precautions should he have taken? Especially given his offensive options are severely limited by his desire to parley with Parson and maintain enough hostages to make that worthwhile.

At the very least, Slately and Tram knew GK could bombard the Tower (potentially decapitating Jetstone after all), and everyone knows that falling riders have an outside shot at entering a ground zone still ready to fight. Yet JS still considers the battle well in hand. Why?


Because falling riders will be isolated and easy prey for whatever ground troops are in the city, especially as they'll be cut off from the rest of the stack and likely their unit bonuses. To provide ANY sort of threat, GK needs to land its entire force as one. Off turn movement is forbidden therefore they can't do that.

but he should at least have studied the basic endgames well enough to know how to bring an opponent into checkmate.


If he were facing any other CW but Parson....this would be game over, check and mate in one.

and he just ordered the evacuation of the zone directly under Wanda


No...he ordered the evacuation of the Atrium...not the entire zone.

For example, Tram could have given specific instructions to target the riders *before* their mounts, or ordered Antium to remain on the ground just in case Wanda fell.


Game rules means targeting riders might not be easy. RL: Dwagons are larger targets. Current situation: Either option removes the threat. As for Antium: The Atrium is getting bombed. Its about to be inundated with falling dwagons which will likely crush who they fall on. Not a healthy place to be.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby oslecamo2 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:22 am

Kyrt wrote:
oslecamo2 wrote:And this is where your point fails. We (at least me) don't "acept" the law of gravity. I was presented a multitude of evidence, experiences, tests and mathematics to back that up. That's why we call it a law. Because it was extensively tested over all kind of situations and isn't broken.


Ahhh...correct me if I'm wrong....but you just pointed out you DO accept the Law of Gravity.

No, I was shown the Law of Gravity at work in a multitude of situations. Key diference there.

Kyrt wrote:Do you personally test the Mathematics behind gravity just to make sure they are correct? Do you test them to try and see if you can find the loophole? No...you accept that there is a Law of Gravity and believe the scientists who tell you because it fits in with your own experiences.

Damn yes I test them. That's for what we have the experimental labs in education. Science courses don't just show you books. They show you books and then they make you perform several experiences to check if all the written stuff actually works. Of course you can let your partners do all the work and just stare at the ceiling, but I was one of those taking notes and experimenting with diferent variables and then doing all the calculations.

Kyrt wrote: And anyone who comes up to you and tells you they have a source of negative matter with which you can bypass those laws would be crazy.


If they just "tell" me, then yes they're crazy. If they actually bring that source of negative energy and show it at work, well, he gets stinking rich, Nobel, and revolution in the Science world.

Well, of course you may blindly believe whatever you're told and never check if it actually works that way. But don't think for a moment that's how the world runs. Smart people always test their knowledges to check for holes and weak points.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Ditto » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:27 am

Also, Hatu- the Tower was in no serious danger from yellows, just like the Atrium is in no serious danger of being TOTALLY DESTROYED by the yellows. The yellows melted through the glass ceiling. The reds and purples are specifically mentioned as the seige-capable, i.e. building destroy-able, units. The yellows would take a while to bore through solid construction, and again they have a skajillion archers and casting defense waiting to waste 'em if they try anything. Which, hey, they just did in the 5 seconds since they started trying anything.
SteveMB wrote:The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
Sorry*.
*no I'm not
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Lamech » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:21 pm

Kyrt wrote:And have them cast magic across zones off turn?
Like kingworld? Because that spell was cast off-turn in a different zone.
Kyrt wrote:nd yet, even without the yellows, JS still has a sizeable GK strike force, Master foolamancer and several warlords as bargaining chips. It also has the threat of a war which it feels it may win. Both sides will attempt to get as much as it can, but as Tram pointed out...right now, they have strong leverage over GK. Those dwagons are a heavy time investment from a number of troops alone
I'm pretty sure the RCC doesn't feel that it "may win". Tram said GK could crush the entirity of the RCC, and that GK is a terribly powerful side. Using terms like crush, it doesn't imply an even match. When your foe is terribly powerful, it means your screwed. Not only that Tram says the coalition, not "Jetstone", but during the battle to save Jetstone the only sides who showed up have a) abandonded them and b) want to betray them. So its even more skewed then he is talking about.
So I'm pretty sure Tram meant "could" as "they will, if they decide to" not "could" as "they might be able to". Example: "Lamech could post to the erf fourm".
Don't believe in keeping your target off balance? Or probing him to see his reactions? Or setting up from the start who is in charge right now?
Pretty sure that really only pisses the other person off.
Kyrt wrote:And yet, even without the yellows, JS still has a sizeable GK strike force, Master foolamancer and several warlords as bargaining chips. It also has the threat of a war which it feels it may win. Both sides will attempt to get as much as it can, but as Tram pointed out...right now, they have strong leverage over GK. Those dwagons are a heavy time investment from a number of troops alone.
No the dwagons are maybe a two dozen turns from Stanley. It would in all likelyhood take longer for Jetstone to march its ground forces to GK. Sure they would be nice to have, but they can be replaced quickly. The leveled warlords would be more difficult, and Jack is a biggy. But when the price is not destroying Jetstone, not retaking the pliers, and not getting a chance at four casters? I don't think thats a net gain.
Plus this way of looking at it is really skewed. Your only looking at the costs and benefits to GK. We also need to consider the costs and benefits to Jetstone. When Jetstone from the offered deal GK is gaining dwagons, warlords, a caster and the resources to crush Jetstone, but Jetstone is getting their ENTIRE SIDE. That isn't a good deal for GK.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby cheeseaholic » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:07 pm

zilfallon wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:...attempting to turn his brother...


If Tram thinks he can just turn Ossomer with words, then he really deserves being called an idiot :D

I didn't say that he thought he could. But it was worth a try for no cost. Besides, he was doing other things at the same time.

Oberon wrote:Perhaps cheeseaholic can handwave away politeness as being unimportant in matters of state, but that is a very naive opinion.


Politeness isn't unimportant in matters of state. It's also not the only tool in the toolbox. I think you have a hammer and are looking for a nail here. There's other ways of doing things than simply being polite. A diplomat should know all the ways of using words to get what is necessary and be willing to do them as the situation warrants. To do otherwise for matters of state would be to be foolish and naive.


I'd like to point out that people are taking everything that Tram has said at face value. Just because he said to his father that they will keep or arkenpliers or kill the witch doesn't mean that he isn't willing to forgo that. The possibilities of the parley that he wants are nearly limitless. I could think of dozens of different arrangements in a minute.

Also remember that if GK loses Wanda, they lose the strongest weapon in the known world, capable of steamrolling entire nations. Well, they lose even more than that (no upkeep = possible world conquest), but Tram doesn't know that. He's in an even stronger bargaining position than he realizes, which would work well for his current style of forceful diplomacy if there would have been a true parley. He was well prepared for the unexpected...in diplomacy. I wonder what was in that dossier and if that influenced Trams actions?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Sieggy » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:32 pm

<sigh> There never was a 'deal'. There were only Trem's intentions. His internal plans. His speculation. His hopes. His rationales. His dreams, if you will. For any kind of 'deal' to be reached, a 'negotiation' would have been necessary, AND THAT NEVER HAPPENED. All of this 'who was going to get what' is completely useless conjecture. Parson, had he known that Trem was serious about negotiating, might have held off with his plans long enough to see if there was another way out. But he had been told that parley was a mere formality, and his ONLY chance to survive and/or win was to get his licks in RIGHT NOW. He couldn't wait; it was now or never, and he who hesitates is lost.

Trem wanted to talk to Parson, check him out for himself, and maybe cut a deal that would have possibly benefited both sides, or at least given JS some breathing room. As far as Trem was concerned, he was in no rush. The enemy wasn't going anywhere, couldn't do anything really threatening. If a deal couldn't be reached, oh well, it was back to Plan A, which was to kill every GK unit within reach, and then go from there. But as long as he had the GKAF by the short & curlies, Trem was open to possibilities. Unfortunately for him, Parson was also open to possibilities.

Trem was opening up by bantering with HIS OLDER BROTHER, and letting him know that he wanted to speak with Parson, and that's as far as anything got. I think Trem was disappointed at what he perceived as Parson's petulance by having Dwagons cwapping on his roof, but didn't see it as a threat. Why should he? By every rule he knew, the experiences of every warlord on Erf, GK was totally and completely powerless and at his mercy.

All this carrying on is silly. You're debating over issues that never came to pass, possibilities that never were, perceptions based on a readers perspective, not the character's. This is a story - how about letting the storyteller do his job and simply enjoying it? Jeeze, I sure some of you aren't like this when you're watching a movie . . .
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby ftl » Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:05 pm

Sieggy wrote: I sure some of you aren't like this when you're watching a movie . . .


Well, when we're watching a movie, we don't have two weeks between scenes. Pretty big difference there.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Kyrt » Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:07 pm

oslecamo2 wrote:No, I was shown the Law of Gravity at work in a multitude of situations. Key diference there.


And Tram has lived how many turns? And seen that off turn movement is impossible. He has seen that rule at work in a multitude of situations as well

Damn yes I test them. That's for what we have the experimental labs in education.


Sorry - unless you work for CERN, or other high end physics labs what you had were labs to demonstrate the principles of gravity. You also did not develop experiments to try and develop loopholes or workarounds for gravity. Your acceptance of the law of gravity is equal to Trams acceptance of the rule..."Off turn movement cannot be done". Truth is, school labs aren't equipped to show that the law of gravity is a physical law. Just that gravity exists and has certain values. Erfworlders likewise know off turn movement can't be done. So does Parson.

Thats why he's harvesting the mounts instead.

Putting yourself into Trams shoes to a degree, were you to try and develop a counter strategy for an attack in this world, you would perhaps be unlikely to consider attacks that made use of anti gravity mechanics. Tram, beign an Erfowlrder, is accepting of Erfworld mechanics. He knows off turn movement is impossible so he is discounting it. Parson just spent 50 turns or so trying to find way to get around Erfworld physics. He also comes from a world where Erfworld physics don't apply. Not only is he gaming the system, but he has his own universe laws to draw on. Off turn movment being forbidden is stupid to him so he's spent a lot of time trying to find a way around it...he succeeded because, to him, such movement is "normal" so he went and found an exploit.

If they just "tell" me, then yes they're crazy. If they actually bring that source of negative energy and show it at work, well, he gets stinking rich, Nobel, and revolution in the Science world.


And yet you would have Tram develop strategies based on the supposition that he should know, in advance, that Parson is about to circumvent what is in effect a physical law? That he is dumb for not having foreseen it?

Lamech wrote:Like kingworld? Because that spell was cast off-turn in a different zone.


Strange...I coulda sworn I saw Vanna at Spacerock cast that spell. No..I was right. Vanna, the Turnamancer, cast the spell while linked with Charlie. It would be interesting to know if the remote linkup is possible anywhere or if it was due to Charlies Arkendish.

I'm pretty sure the RCC doesn't feel that it "may win". Tram said GK could crush the entirity of the RCC, and that GK is a terribly powerful side.


I think the key phrase there that I'm seizing on is "could crush". As opposed to "certainly crush" or similar wording.

Theres no point to Trams negotiating in good faith if you are right as the hostages he holds are expendable assets.

Example: "Lamech could post to the erf fourm"


And he may not. It doesn't imply he will post, or that he won't. It simply says he has the ability to do so but the outcome - will he or won't he - is uncertain. GK has the ability to win, but the outcome is uncertain.

Pretty sure that really only pisses the other person off.


Hes throwing Ossomers own words back in his face. Whether that annoys him or not isn't the apparent point...he wants a pact with GK, he wants his brothers back, he wants info on Parson, etc. Testing his loyalty to GK is a product of one of those needs.

No the dwagons are maybe a two dozen turns from Stanley.


As I said, serious time investment and one that merely gets GK to where they are now. Without the warlords, without the casters.

But when the price is not destroying Jetstone, not retaking the pliers, and not getting a chance at four casters? I don't think thats a net gain.


The alternative is not "not destroying Jetstone, not retaking the pliers, and not getting a chance at four casters". The alternative is losing their entire strike force, losing the pliers and not destroying Jetstone and not getting a chance at four casters". The question is how much value will GK place on the units JS is offering to give up.

Plus this way of looking at it is really skewed. Your only looking at the costs and benefits to GK. We also need to consider the costs and benefits to Jetstone. When Jetstone from the offered deal GK is gaining dwagons, warlords, a caster and the resources to crush Jetstone, but Jetstone is getting their ENTIRE SIDE. That isn't a good deal for GK.
[/quote][/quote]

Jetstone gets to keep Spacerock. They have other cities and would likely survive this turn if Spacerock fell, so long as the King got away. Tram is offering GK a way to keep a powerful strike force and secure one of its borders.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby zilfallon » Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:20 pm

And he may not. It doesn't imply he will post, or that he won't. It simply says he has the ability to do so but the outcome - will he or won't he - is uncertain. GK has the ability to win, but the outcome is uncertain.


If GK has the ability to crush the coalition, then it also means that it is their choice to crush the RCC or not.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Oberon » Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:21 pm

Kyrt wrote:
Oberon wrote:But I'll try to help you again: How many casters did it take to end the GK turn? Frame your response only from the point of view of Tram.

At least Two. Vanna who was there and (presumably) Charlie who she was linked with....as indicated by the lack of identity and Charlie speaking through her. Given "Charlie" asked people not to speak with her, that's also indicative of a Trimancer link. Probably with Unaroyals former Changeamancer.
*BBBZZZTTT* Wrong answer! Thanks for playing, and we have some lovely parting gifts for you. This fine idiot ball, just for starters! We were going to also award you with a years supply of hypocrisy, but it appears as though you're stocked up. Here, take this mirror of showing you exactly what you want to see as a consolation prize. Oh, damn, you already have one of those also.

Tri-mancer links are all done with three casters in physical contact, one of which is a Thinkamancer. This is "Da Rulz", after all, and your entire defense of Tram is that he shouldn't be expected to anticipate things which are beyond "Da Rulz." I expected a bit more from you than the double standard, "I'm right no matter what, because I'll just pick the perspective that supports me at the time, and be damned to consistency" position of argument.

Kingworld was, from Jetstone's point of view, cast with a single Turnamancer. Anything else is impossible, and according to some here couldn't even be conceptualized by any Erfworld unit, much less planned for. Or you could just make exceptions for Tram's failure to look more deeply into anything at all, while at the same time deciding that Charlie's disembodied voice quite clearly pointed out to Slately that Vanna was in a solo trimancer link with Charlie and some other caster. Yeah, go right ahead.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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