Book 2 – Page 49

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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Oberon » Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:29 pm

cheeseaholic wrote:
Oberon wrote:Perhaps cheeseaholic can handwave away politeness as being unimportant in matters of state, but that is a very naive opinion.
Politeness isn't unimportant in matters of state. It's also not the only tool in the toolbox. I think you have a hammer and are looking for a nail here. There's other ways of doing things than simply being polite. A diplomat should know all the ways of using words to get what is necessary and be willing to do them as the situation warrants. To do otherwise for matters of state would be to be foolish and naive.
And when the diplomat chooses to spend time offering insult rather than actually bargaining in good faith, as was his stated intention, and when that delay spent offering insults gave Parson the time to bomb the atrium kill Jetstone forces, do you still decide that the diplomat made the right call? Really?

You can decide all day long that Parson would have moved ahead with his plan no matter what Tram said or did. What you can't do is deny that 5 minutes of insult followed by atrium bombing couldn't have been replaced by 5 minutes of honest deal brokering followed by whatever that might have led to. And if Tram had offered 5 minutes of honest deal brokering and Parson still attacked, I wouldn't be calling Tram an idiot. He'd have done his best in that case.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Oberon » Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:01 pm

ftl wrote:Tram is an Erfworlder Warlord. He's bound by the same assumptions and limitations that most of them are - thinking they know how the game works, given that they were popped with the knowledge of it. Perhaps he's more clever than average, or perhaps he's too single-minded at diplomacy, [...] Tramennis is above-average smart compared to other Erf-popped units, though he does have perhaps a bit too much of a penchant for diplomacy rather than action.
People keep saying this, but other than being told that Tram is a good diplomat, and other than his desire to talk to all parties involved, we haven't actually seen much in the way of good diplomacy from him. Good diplomats don't waste time hacking off their opponents who could (and did, and nice going diplomat for wasting time offering insults instead of trying to prevent damage to your city and the lives of your units) still attack. Good diplomats also don't waste time trying to turn a unit (Ossomer) rather than simply demanding him as part of the terms. As he had fully intended to do with Wanda and the archons. Whereupon he would have had endless time to talk to Ossomer about anything at all...

Here's what we saw:
Tram: Hi Ossomer. You look stupid, your Overlord is a jerk, and you ought to turn now. I say this now, taking my time you understand, because even though once I get you, the witch, the Arkentool, and the archons in the coming deal and I'll have all the time in the world to turn you then, I like to hear myself snark cleverly at your expense. Time is of no essence, because I'm about to offer such wonderful terms that Parson will have to accept. Then Parson won't need to crap bomb any part of my city, thinking that I'm only offering a parley intending to insult GK before killing the GK units. That would be such a foolish assumption for Parson to make, hahaha! ... Crap, Parson is attacking! Sure wish I hadn't wasted all that time dithering and insulting people instead of offering those great terms that will lead us to an alliance with the Side that can probably still wipe us out if we aren't friends.
Wait....friends....insults....NOOOOO What have I done!


Ok, that last sentence hasn't happened. But it should. A smart diplomat might be expected to come to understand that insulting people he claims to need an alliance with wasn't the smart or diplomatic thing to do.

Here is how some choose to interpret it:
Tram: Hi Ossomer. I'm a masterful diplomat, so you ought to turn now. I've got all the time in the world because even though I have discussed with my father how Parson can still attack parts of the city, I'm still really smart to try to turn you now instead of directing my efforts towards preventing that foolish action. It won't happen, anyway. Because I'm smart, and a diplomat, and stuff. No one in a desperate situation is going to interrupt my attempts to turn someone I could have just asked for as part of the lovely terms I was going to offer. I mean, you're a mere warlord and I'm already assuming that a masterclass caster and one of the three known Arkentool artifacts will be no problem as demands, so even though it looks as though I'm wasting time turning you now when I'll have time forever to turn you later, I'm really not wasting time, because I'm a smart diplomat. And there is nothing else I need to be doing right now, because I'm smart! You can't doubt this, Slately said as much only a few dozen updates ago! No, no, don't look at what I'm doing! The back story is the only thing that matters! I'm smart. And a diplomat. I can make deals. Even when I insult people. Turn, now, please. Oh cwap, Parson is attacking...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Kyrt » Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:12 pm

Oberon wrote:*BBBZZZTTT* Wrong answer! Thanks for playing, and we have some lovely parting gifts for you. This fine idiot ball, just for starters! We were going to also award you with a years supply of hypocrisy, but it appears as though you're stocked up. Here, take this mirror of showing you exactly what you want to see as a consolation prize. Oh, damn, you already have one of those also.

Tri-mancer links are all done with three casters in physical contact, one of which is a Thinkamancer. This is "Da Rulz", after all, and your entire defense of Tram is that he shouldn't be expected to anticipate things which are beyond "Da Rulz." I expected a bit more from you than the double standard, "I'm right no matter what, because I'll just pick the perspective that supports me at the time, and be damned to consistency" position of argument.

Kingworld was, from Jetstone's point of view, cast with a single Turnamancer. Anything else is impossible, and according to some here couldn't even be conceptualized by any Erfworld unit, much less planned for. Or you could just make exceptions for Tram's failure to look more deeply into anything at all, while at the same time deciding that Charlie's disembodied voice quite clearly pointed out to Slately that Vanna was in a solo trimancer link with Charlie and some other caster. Yeah, go right ahead.


And I disagree.

From the reader pov, it seems apparent that the spell was cast via a caster link....its unclear whether its a 2 or 3 caster link, but there are a couple of indications which imply a triple link, one of which was Charlie making use of the Arkendish.

However, your question is - how much did Tram know? How much could he guess or surmise.

First....he has spoken with Jillian, his father and Charlie. Any one of which may have given him enough information to surmise a link...and two of those actually know it was a link. Did we see a discussion about it? No. Should we assume the topic never came up?

Secondly, we have Trams own words......."Charlie, in fact, saved us all. Think of it. Without that fancy Turnamancy...."?
Crediting CHARLIE with ending the turn and that Turnamancy spell indicates that he's fully aware of what occurred.

I'm not sure how you can go from there to stating that Tram wasn't aware of the link. The best you can do is state I've misunderstood what Tram meant when he credited Charlie with saving them and then state that we have to assume he never discussed the issue at all with Charlie, Jillian or his father.

As it is, Trimancer links need a Thinkamancer and GK hasn't one available in hex to form a link. Therefore, JS doesn't need to fear the power of even a paired caster link.

Yes, your point was that from Trams POV one Turnamancer ended GKs turn early and so he should fear even ONE caster. Trouble is, as I said, from what we see, it seems he KNOWS there was a link involved. So he won't fear the power of a single caster.

And when the diplomat chooses to spend time offering insult rather than actually bargaining in good faith, as was his stated intention, and when that delay spent offering insults gave Parson the time to bomb the atrium kill Jetstone forces, do you still decide that the diplomat made the right call? Really?


Yes. Because bantering with Ossomer and throwing his own insults back in his face would seem an acceptable manner in which to fulfil one of Trams stated aims...to retrieve his brothers. He is not, after all, going to be negotiating with Ossomer but with Parson or Stanley. And reminding Ossomer that he viewed Stanley as "loathsome, crawling deceit and cowardice" is a fair way to telling him that he isn't acting like himself. After all, look at Jillian in TBfGK....how Sizemore said that orders too far against her nature wouldn't work.

As for giving Parson the time....GKs been circling JS for how long now? How many hours? Parsons had all the time he needed and more to bomb the targets but the only targets Trams truly interested in protecting are the King and himself. And lets not forget that traditionally, parley has been a time for the cessation of hostilities. Yes, Parson has broken that rule before and Trams had him move over the atrium where he can't target the people who actually matter. The only reason time matters is because of PArsons plan. Beyond that, Tram has as much time as he wants.

You can decide all day long that Parson would have moved ahead with his plan no matter what Tram said or did. What you can't do is deny that 5 minutes of insult followed by atrium bombing couldn't have been replaced by 5 minutes of honest deal brokering followed by whatever that might have led to. And if Tram had offered 5 minutes of honest deal brokering and Parson still attacked, I wouldn't be calling Tram an idiot. He'd have done his best in that case.
[/quote]

Which depends on your priorities and needs. GKs been circling JS and the atrium for hours. As it is, we aren't talking 5 minutes of insults. We're talking seconds here. Parson didn't wait long after sending Ossomer in before starting his assualt and the roof has already largely gone by the end panel of 47.

In short, if Parson was the sort of person to bomb the atrium out of contempt, doing something to cause any damage while he could, even against forces who couldn't hurt him and do so simply to cause damage, and even wait until Tram and the king were there to witness it, there'd be very little Tram could do anyway, and it'd be a sign that an Alliance, interesting as it may be, would be a non starter anyway. If he wasn't....then there'd be time for Tram to check on the issue which time had the most probable effect - his brothers loyalty.
Last edited by Kyrt on Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:29 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Ansan Gotti » Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:18 pm

Oberon wrote:Good diplomats don't waste time hacking off their opponents who could (and did, and nice going diplomat for wasting time offering insults instead of trying to prevent damage to your city and the lives of your units) still attack...


Look, I feel like I'm repeating myself (and others) here, but it is getting beyond ridiculous.

It is Jetstone's turn. Tramennis thought he had all the time in the world. He opened with some info gathering by speaking to his BROTHER -- you know, his intimate family member, who he specifically indicated in advance that he wanted to probe -- using some bantering that seems extremely typical for Tramennis. He learned that his brother doesn't seem likely to turn, has memory of past events, runs those past events through a completely different lens now, still has some inkling of honor and dishonor, knows very little about Parson, and appears to be capable of experiencing shame.

And far from your contention that Tramennis' supposedly horrible insults (which as far as I can tell consist of a joke about his clothes, bringing up Ossomer's own past words, a jab at being second-best, and the dishonor of his enigmatic Chief Warlord which might very well have the effect of lowering Ossomer's loyalty toward Parson for all we know) have somehow barred further parley, in fact Tramennis seems to have learned new things, shamed Ossomer and gained the upper hand morally, which is critical to many negotiations, and still appears to have a window to speak with Parson barring what is about to go down unbeknownst to Tramennis.

IT IS ONLY DUE TO YOUR READER'S VIEWPOINT that we know every second counted. What Tramennis did was not stupid from a normal Erf perspective. It is part of a diplomatic dance which is within the realm of propriety for any number of cultures, particularly when dealing with a familiar face over the bargaining table, and especially when there is an existing state of hostility between the two parties. And again, in his mind, he has all of the time in the world.

This is not a close call in my book, and the only reason it seems to be such a bugbear for you and a couple of others is because of your presupposition that Tramennis is stupid, and your extreme reluctance to separate our knowledge as readers from traditional Erfer knowledge.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Oberon » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:12 pm

Kyrt wrote:Secondly, we have Trams own words......."Charlie, in fact, saved us all. Think of it. Without that fancy Turnamancy...."?
Crediting CHARLIE with ending the turn and that Turnamancy spell indicates that he's fully aware of what occurred.
More lovely double standards. Your position is, now, that Tram is disbelieving of Charlie's intentions when he tells Tram that he advises most strongly against parley with GK. While at the same time accepting that Charlie should be credited with Kingworld without a single bit of evidence, and when in fact the entire event was impossible from the rules as known. How very lovely, indeed. It is always convenient to be able to choose the point of view that supports any given theory of yours, even when that point of view has to change from opinion to opinion.

So is Tram an idiot for suspecting Charlie of having an ulterior motivation about the parley? Or is Tram an idiot for accepting at face value and without any supporting evidence that Charlie did something which was unthinkable and impossible right before it happened?

But I suppose you can always say that Tram was smart for suspecting an ulterior motivation about the parley, and smart for accepting at face value and without any supporting evidence that Charlie did something which was unthinkable and impossible right before it happened, if you want to. I think that history will show which POV was smartest, and that Tram fell right into the "batting 0%" category, but you're still allowed to choose to believe that he is the smartest diplomat Erfworld has ever seen, and a snappy dresser as well.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Oberon » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:26 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
Oberon wrote:Good diplomats don't waste time hacking off their opponents who could (and did, and nice going diplomat for wasting time offering insults instead of trying to prevent damage to your city and the lives of your units) still attack...


Look, I feel like I'm repeating myself (and others) here, but it is getting beyond ridiculous.

It is Jetstone's turn. Tramennis thought he had all the time in the world. [...] IT IS ONLY DUE TO YOUR READER'S VIEWPOINT that we know every second counted.
It is not possible to present the position that Tram thought that he had all the time in the world. Well, it is possible, there is just no support for that position. Tram himself discussed with his King about the potential for off-turn GK attacks on Jetstone property. It is not "ONLY DUE TO [MY] READER'S VIEWPOINT" that I know this to be fact, Tram told me so himself.

Why anyone would constantly carry on defending the undefendable is only understandable in the context of blind, fanboy logic where nothing the character can do or say is able to be criticized, because it says right there in the text that he is a smart guy. Excusing time wasting bantering as being "totally in character" doesn't make the character smart. The smart character goes above one dimensional character traits and actually does something that the readers can identify as being smart. So sure, Tram bantering with his brother was totally understandable. If, that is, Tram is holding the idiot ball instead of getting the things done that he said needed to get done.

I'm not even going to argue about the "supposedly horrible insults", the point is more about the time wasted than the insults. I'll still maintain that insulting people you seem to need to make a deal with is idiocy, but even had Ossomer turned on the spot, and then the dwagon cwap attack started, the point about priorities remains strong. Tram could have taken all the time in the world to turn Ossomer, after securing the alliance he needs. But he wasted that opportunity, when it should have been his first priority. You don't accomplish much if you chose redundant and wasteful methods of prioritizing your objectives.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby CorrTerek » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:34 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:All he has to do is jump off. I bet that would be an interesting end to the parley with Tram. "Excuse me brother, but... AAAAAAAHHHHHHH!"


24 pages of arguing and nitpicking and rehashing old, old, old arguments and this is still the best thing to come out of this thread.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Ansan Gotti » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:37 pm

Oberon wrote:It is not possible to present the position that Tram thought that he had all the time in the world. Well, it is possible, there is just no support for that position. Tram himself discussed with his King about the potential for off-turn GK attacks on Jetstone property. It is not "ONLY DUE TO [MY] READER'S VIEWPOINT" that I know this to be fact, Tram told me so himself.


Look, this has already addressed in the text and in these forums ad nauseam as well. That's exactly why he ordered the yellows over the atrium, so they would be effectively limited in the damage they could do. There is no point to attacking the atrium in any traditional Erfer's mind, it is a waste of resources and a tantrum as Tramennis has pegged it. Only we readers know the attack actually has great meaning, no other Erfer would expect this to occur because it seems STUPID tactically to hit expendable units (assuming people know the yellow dwagon crap is even capable of penetrating the roof, that is still an open question in my mind) that can't hurt the enemy. So yes, he thought he had all the time in the world, and no, the perception of a tantrum by the enemy doesn't change that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby cheeseaholic » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:54 pm

Oberon wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:
Oberon wrote:Perhaps cheeseaholic can handwave away politeness as being unimportant in matters of state, but that is a very naive opinion.
Politeness isn't unimportant in matters of state. It's also not the only tool in the toolbox. I think you have a hammer and are looking for a nail here. There's other ways of doing things than simply being polite. A diplomat should know all the ways of using words to get what is necessary and be willing to do them as the situation warrants. To do otherwise for matters of state would be to be foolish and naive.
And when the diplomat chooses to spend time offering insult rather than actually bargaining in good faith, as was his stated intention, and when that delay spent offering insults gave Parson the time to bomb the atrium kill Jetstone forces, do you still decide that the diplomat made the right call? Really?


No I do not. Kinda like someone buying the winning lottery ticket is the right call. Yeah, normally buying a ticket would be a bad call, but not that time. Here normally doing this would be a good call, but not this specific time.

So go ahead and buy that lottery ticket. It may be the right call. I'll refrain from doing so, since that's a one in a hundred million or so chance.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Ditto » Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:34 pm

Oberon:
Tram is disbelieving of Charlie's intentions when he tells Tram that he advises most strongly against parley with GK.
Charlie says something, and Tram distrusts it.
...While at the same time accepting that Charlie should be credited with Kingworld without a single bit of evidence, and when in fact the entire event was impossible from the rules as known.

Charlie did not say he assisted Vanna in a link-up. Tram deduced it for himself. He learned that Charlie strong-armed Haggar from Sammy, NOT from Charlie or Jillian, and found that this too was consistent with the facts as he knew them.

There is no problem with this reasoning. At least, not the one you state, Oberon.

Also, as has been stated, jabbering with Ossomer did not "give" Parson time to bomb the atrium. He waited to bomb the atrium until the parley started. He could have done that at any point, but didn't. He wanted to wait until JS was poised to shoot down the yellows in order to cause confusion when every color dwagon started falling. If Tram had started out his parley with "Ossomer, how would you like me to turn and join your side?", Parson's plan wouldn't've changed - because Parson's not directly involved in that 10 second long conversation.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Oberon » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:16 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:Look, this has already addressed in the text and in these forums ad nauseam as well. That's exactly why he ordered the yellows over the atrium, so they would be effectively limited in the damage they could do. There is no point to attacking the atrium in any traditional Erfer's mind, it is a waste of resources and a tantrum as Tramennis has pegged it.
No point, you say? None such as simple as, perhaps, to do as much damage as Parson can, while he can? This is almost a direct quote from Tram, who only seemed to clue into this after the fact. Wouldn't the smart man have tried to avoid this potential for costly damage in advance, and not shrugged it off as something he can add to an already fixed bill against GK? Yes, I believe that a smart diplomat could have done so. Tram did not do so. This wasn't a defense against some act previously thought to be impossible, it was an expected and anticipated act, which Tram decided that insulting his ex-brother and Stanley was more important than attempting to prevent. Thus, the idiot ball.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Oberon » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:19 pm

Ditto wrote:If Tram had started out his parley with "Ossomer, how would you like me to turn and join your side?", Parson's plan wouldn't've changed - because Parson's not directly involved in that 10 second long conversation.
Incorrect. Parson was watching the conversation closely. And Tram knew that he could (by the same logic that Ansom knew about how to combine random archon powers into a DDR), and should assume that he is. And that's giving a pass for the obvious archon TV that is happening in the sky above Jetstone. If 10 warlords have 300 chances to break a veil, how many warlords who are looking directly at visible enemy troops does it take to see what they are doing?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Kyrt » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:22 pm

Oberon wrote:More lovely double standards. Your position is, now, that Tram is disbelieving of Charlie's intentions when he tells Tram that he advises most strongly against parley with GK. While at the same time accepting that Charlie should be credited with Kingworld without a single bit of evidence, and when in fact the entire event was impossible from the rules as known.


Hold on...you are discounting a known magic in Erfworld...Trimancer links...as impossible? You are discounting Trams own words that he knows it was Charlie because you assume Charlie told him and he should automatically disbelieve everything Charlie tells him?

First....Trimancer links are powerful. They exist. And are known.
Second....Tram doesn't have to trust Charlie to believe him. He may also have found out from Jillain or deduced the info from his father.

I pointed out Trams words indicated he knew it was a link with Charlie. Yes, that destroyed your thinking that Tram should be on alert for "impossible" events because such events had already happened that day. We don't need to know when, where or how Tram got that information or why he believes it. That he has that information and that he does believe it is all that really matters.

Tram knows GKs turn ended because of a Trimancer link. Number of impossible events that occurred that day....Zero. Number of times Parson did the impossible? Zero.

So is Tram an idiot for suspecting Charlie of having an ulterior motivation about the parley? Or is Tram an idiot for accepting at face value and without any supporting evidence that Charlie did something which was unthinkable and impossible right before it happened?


Uhhh...I'm saying Tram isn't an idiot. He doesn't have to disbelieve Charlie to doubt Charlies motives. He seems to take Parsons dossier at face value for example. He also doesn't have to doubt Kingworld as impossible because it required a caster link. We don't know what evidence convinced him...therefore we can't say why he believes it or if he is smart for doing so.

As it is....you are possibly wrong when you say we have no evidence. None was given to us...we don't know what Tram was shown. That's just you making an assumption there. And the fact that Kingsworld was a caster link removes it and other such impossibilities from play....GK doesn't have a Trimancer link in hex. Nor can it form one. And without one, such impossibilities WON'T occur. There is no need to consider them.

As it is, your arguments appear to be that Tram is stupid because he didn't predict the impossible, that his diplomatic style upon greeting his brother is one you don't agree with because the few seconds he spent out of the who knows how many hundreds of hours before he ended turn probing his brother for information and reactions regarding decryption was time wasted, and that his lack of concern for his troops shows a lack of backbone and resolve and foresight.

Put simply....you don't predict the impossible. You don't even prepare for it. Doing so is a waste of time, effort and resources. The question is...did Tram prepare for all likely events? GK can't move, fight or flee. They are covered by archers and casters. They will almost certainly all die in a battle once it begins. GK can still attack via bomb...so the dwagons are moved to the only other place they can go ...the airspace above the atrium...so they can't attack the twoer, the king, the CW.

Did he not foresee anything likely? Doesn't seem to be the case. Should he have predicted an off turn move? I don't see any reason to expect him to do so. He appears to be a fairly smart Warlord, with a comparatively unconventional outlook....but lateral thinking is Parsons game. Not his. The telling feature of whether or not he's holding the "idiot ball" will be how he deals with this exploit. His response to Parsons opening gambit does strike me as unusual and smart - other warlords would probably have agreed with the King but Trams response was proportionate and effective while keeping his bargaining hand strong - but he wasn't ever going to stop or even delay it; Slatelys decision to hold off attacking until the field units were recalled and parley held gave Parson what he needed. I expect him to fail to save JS...but the speed and effectiveness of his commands there will be telling. Even if its a quick "We've lost...save the king" deal as he realises GK just landed a very powerful ground force inside the city itself and is growing more powerful because of its decryption.

His diplomatic style....he is greeting his brother. One of his stated aims is to turn Ossomer back. Yes...asking for Ossomer via Treaty is probably doable, but Tram still needs to see his reactions, probe his loyalty now, if only to see how strong the link is this soon after Decryption. He approached this in a conversational style and used Ossomers own words against him to test the link. Trams main priority is the Treaty, but getting info from Ossomer will help...it may confirm Charlies info if nothing else...and he has plenty of time; there is no time limit here. But this is, after all, the "greeting phase"...not the negotiation. As it is, this is a parley. The proper place, if it were needed, to specify no hostilities would have been earlier, when JS asked GK to move. It would also have been redundant....the point of a parley is to stop hostilities while talks are held. If GK was going to hold fire anyway, there was no need to ask. If it was going to open fire, there was no point in asking.

Yes...Parson did bomb the atrium. Always a possibility which is why they moved from the tower. Why should this matter? Because he's causing a hole in the roof and killing expendable JS troops. Is this a concern? No...its an inconvenience and ultimately of little importance. Troops can be repopped and they won't be needed in this battle. The building will be repaired before any enemy can get close to exploit it. If Tram can get a Treaty, the costs can be borne from the reparations. If not, they were thinking of razing a city for upkeep anyway.

So..is Tram an idiot for not wiping out the GK force when he had the chance? Not his decision actually...and he had other aims when he got back that required him to keep GK alive.
Is he an idiot for not predicting off turn movement? No. AFAICS, to him thats a physical impossibility.
Is he an idiot for his diplomatic style? No.
Is he an idiot for not insisting ona cessation of hostilities? No.

Every single point you've raised to try and show Tram is an idiot has been shown to be wrong. Repeatedly.

Trams main flaws here are not that he is stupid....its that he is an Erfworlder and isn't Parson. He sees off turn movement as impossible but he hasn't gamed the system to realise that harvesting mounts mid air at the same time causes a mass fall with a large force crossing zones and ending up on the ground and able to act. Leave that aside and his orders, with his own knowledge and aims, make sense and show a long term thinking we've not seen often in Erfworld warlords.

It is not possible to present the position that Tram thought that he had all the time in the world


They have until the turn is over. Who determines when it is over? The King. Aside from the possibility of Trimancer enhanced Kingsworld spells.

Tram himself discussed with his King about the potential for off-turn GK attacks on Jetstone property.


As a consequence of the yellows bombing the tower. A possibility he prevented. Yes, it meant they could bomb the atrium instead but I'm certain that the loss of a few troops was a sacrifice he was willing to make. After all, the GK force hadn't been acting hostile for hours, the units in the atrium could do them no harm and were largely expendable and the GK force was covered by several hundred archers and casters making it in GKs best interests not to do anything rash.

If, that is, Tram is holding the idiot ball instead of getting the things done that he said needed to get done.


One of the things he said he needed to do was talk with his brother.

I'm not even going to argue about the "supposedly horrible insults", the point is more about the time wasted than the insults


Time wasted is ZERO. You don't seem to realise this...this was a parley. No hostilities can be assumed. If Parson was going to break that rule, as he had before and they had considered, then a polite request, even backed up by 600 archers, wasn't going to stop him.

He has all the time he needs to conduct a parley with Parson. He has no incentive to hurry. There is no stopwatch, no countdown. There is no deadline. He can chat all day if he wants to....but his turn won't end until he does all he needs to, his bargaining hand won't change based on anything he does and it would be helpful for him to chat with his brother beforehand, to test the limits of decryption, to test his loyalty, to see if he can get through and to see what he can find out about the people he WILL be negotiating with and the ties that bind the decrypted to them.

And after all...he doesn't want Ossomer the decrypyted Warlord back. He doesn't want the re-turned Ossomer back. He wants his brother back.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Kyrt » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:25 pm

Oberon wrote:
Ansan Gotti wrote:Look, this has already addressed in the text and in these forums ad nauseam as well. That's exactly why he ordered the yellows over the atrium, so they would be effectively limited in the damage they could do. There is no point to attacking the atrium in any traditional Erfer's mind, it is a waste of resources and a tantrum as Tramennis has pegged it.
No point, you say? None such as simple as, perhaps, to do as much damage as Parson can, while he can? This is almost a direct quote from Tram, who only seemed to clue into this after the fact. Wouldn't the smart man have tried to avoid this potential for costly damage in advance, and not shrugged it off as something he can add to an already fixed bill against GK? Yes, I believe that a smart diplomat could have done so. Tram did not do so. This wasn't a defense against some act previously thought to be impossible, it was an expected and anticipated act, which Tram decided that insulting his ex-brother and Stanley was more important than attempting to prevent. Thus, the idiot ball.



As I said...Parley is a time when hostilities cease. Thats the reason for them. Parson may or may not decide to break the parley Tram was arranging, but asking him not to do was redundant. Tram prepared for that possibility as much as he could. He could have asked for a commitment for peace when arranging parley, but again...theres no point to doing so.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Kyrt » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:37 pm

Oberon wrote:Incorrect. Parson was watching the conversation closely.


No, he wasn't. He was in the portal room chatting with Sizemore
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby build6 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:52 pm

Oberon wrote:Tram: Hi Ossomer. You look stupid, your Overlord is a jerk, and you ought to turn now.
Ok, that last sentence hasn't happened. But it should. A smart diplomat might be expected to come to understand that insulting people he claims to need an alliance with wasn't the smart or diplomatic thing to do.


he was talking to Ossomer. his brother. you talk differently to people you're familiar with vs. people who are strangers.

if you answered this elsewhere I missed it - I'll repeat this:

build6 wrote:
Oberon wrote:And if the guy you're hoping to make a deal with exhibits such irrational behavior, do you still carry on thinking that making a deal with this guy is your best path forward? You do, if you are an idiot.


how would you deal with North Korea?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Oberon » Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:11 pm

Kyrt wrote:
Oberon wrote:Incorrect. Parson was watching the conversation closely.

No, he wasn't. He was in the portal room chatting with Sizemore
What is Parson watching in panel 4 here? And what's that happening in panel 1?
Kyrt wrote:Tram knows GKs turn ended because of a Trimancer link.
BS. Tram knows that some fancy Turnamancy ended the GK turn. And that the Turnamancer was with Jillian. And that some disembodied voice slapped his father down when he attempted to speak to said Turnamancer who arrived with Jillian.

You have decided without evidence that Slately indentified that voice, described only as "powerful and deep and decidedly male" as being Charlie.
You have decided that Tram knows that this is a tri-mancer link, without evidence.
You have decided that Tram knows for a fact that Charlie was the savior of Jetstone, but there is no evidence for this, and while Tram is doubting Charlie on other advice he is giving one might hope that he'd be a little credulous about any claims of having been saved by Charlie.

In short, you decide that Tram is smart because you want him to be smart, and not due to any evidence of this within the story. There is clearly no accounting for the lack of a critical eye.
Kyrt wrote:
Oberon wrote:More lovely double standards. Your position is, now, that Tram is disbelieving of Charlie's intentions when he tells Tram that he advises most strongly against parley with GK. While at the same time accepting that Charlie should be credited with Kingworld without a single bit of evidence, and when in fact the entire event was impossible from the rules as known.
Hold on...you are discounting a known magic in Erfworld...Trimancer links...as impossible?
Yeah, way to cherry pick and straw man. Please do recall that Vanna was standing alone. And very much not standing linked to two other casters. So, yeah, impossible.

But you know what? You've beaten me down, overwhelmed me with bogus arguments, repetitious points which have been proven to be insubstantial, and the constant ignoring of any viewpoint that doesn't support your own, no matter what triple jointed back flips are required to follow your single minded selection of the facts which best support your position at the time, and regardless of having used completely contrary facts to support your other positions. Congratulations, you have won an argument on the Internet!
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Lamech » Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:58 pm

Strange...I coulda sworn I saw Vanna at Spacerock cast that spell. No..I was right. Vanna, the Turnamancer, cast the spell while linked with Charlie. It would be interesting to know if the remote linkup is possible anywhere or if it was due to Charlies Arkendish.
But it wasn't her turn and she was in the tower zone not the airspace. So links at least can cast spells with devestating effects even if they are not in your zone. And it doesn't matter if its only Charlie who can remote link, in fact if it's only Charlie we now have a plausible reason for GK to have something they can do but not have done it: They can only do it after they deal with Charlie.
GK has the ability to win, but the outcome is uncertain.
True the outcome could be changed, if GK is convinced not to do it. But convincing GK not to crush you will be really hard if you killed their precious Wanda, and are holding the pliers. And negotiating a cease-fire will be really easy if you offer to let Wanda go.
Kyrt wrote:As I said...Parley is a time when hostilities cease.
Yeah, see slight problem with this "Parley is a time when hostilities cease". It isn't. Queen Bea saw to that by attacking during a parley. Tram is an utter fool if he actually believes GK has any obligation to honor parleys after the stunt Queen Bea pulled. And of course the first thing Jillian did after negotiating a truce with Wanda is break it, so again the RCC is pretty fail when it comes to keeping its word.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby Ansan Gotti » Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:59 pm

Oberon wrote:
Ansan Gotti wrote:Look, this has already addressed in the text and in these forums ad nauseam as well. That's exactly why he ordered the yellows over the atrium, so they would be effectively limited in the damage they could do. There is no point to attacking the atrium in any traditional Erfer's mind, it is a waste of resources and a tantrum as Tramennis has pegged it.
No point, you say? None such as simple as, perhaps, to do as much damage as Parson can, while he can? This is almost a direct quote from Tram, who only seemed to clue into this after the fact. Wouldn't the smart man have tried to avoid this potential for costly damage in advance, and not shrugged it off as something he can add to an already fixed bill against GK? Yes, I believe that a smart diplomat could have done so. Tram did not do so. This wasn't a defense against some act previously thought to be impossible, it was an expected and anticipated act, which Tram decided that insulting his ex-brother and Stanley was more important than attempting to prevent. Thus, the idiot ball.


Have you played many turn-based games? Serious question.

I've played loads, which is one reason I love Erfworld. A side which is already having unit upkeep problems -- to the extent of already dumping units to maintain other units -- simply DOES NOT CARE very much about stacks of basic infantry. So it's essentially a pointless and stupid attack, based on the regular rules. Which is how Tramennis is treating it. He still thinks he has plenty of time to parley, and he still thinks he has GK right where he wants them. He will be disabused of that notion very quickly, I don't doubt, but up to this point it hasn't been anything beyond the pale.

Your position that Tramennis is a bad diplomat is unsustainable, and freaking out over stacks of basic infantry (either before or after the crapstorm) would do more to undermine a parley by conveying desperation, than anything Tramennis has done so far, which is actually quite substantial (see above on probing Ossomer) as I have already laid out.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 49

Postby atalex » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:29 pm

Oberon wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:
Oberon wrote:Perhaps cheeseaholic can handwave away politeness as being unimportant in matters of state, but that is a very naive opinion.
Politeness isn't unimportant in matters of state. It's also not the only tool in the toolbox. I think you have a hammer and are looking for a nail here. There's other ways of doing things than simply being polite. A diplomat should know all the ways of using words to get what is necessary and be willing to do them as the situation warrants. To do otherwise for matters of state would be to be foolish and naive.
And when the diplomat chooses to spend time offering insult rather than actually bargaining in good faith, as was his stated intention, and when that delay spent offering insults gave Parson the time to bomb the atrium kill Jetstone forces, do you still decide that the diplomat made the right call? Really?

You can decide all day long that Parson would have moved ahead with his plan no matter what Tram said or did. What you can't do is deny that 5 minutes of insult followed by atrium bombing couldn't have been replaced by 5 minutes of honest deal brokering followed by whatever that might have led to. And if Tram had offered 5 minutes of honest deal brokering and Parson still attacked, I wouldn't be calling Tram an idiot. He'd have done his best in that case.


1. The parley thus far can't possibly have been going for more than 60 seconds by my estimation. Probably no more than 30 seconds at the most since the first crap-bomb fell, and 5-10 seconds since Trem gave the order to fire on the yellow dragons. No time at all has passed since Operation Banana 'Sploit has started since, obviously, there has been no update.

2. Innumerable books about negotiation and diplomatic strategy have discussed the acceptability of starting negotiations from a position of bluster and apparent overconfidence so that later, after negotiations have proceeded, you can offer the terms you actually want from a posture of humble contrition, thereby letting your opponent believe he has defeated you. It was the central premise of Winning Through Intimidation which was a bestseller back in the 80's, and IIRC, Getting to Yes talked about it a lot too (though it's been 13 years since I read it).

3. In any event, it is irrelevant whether Trem started off with insults or praise, because Parson was never interested in a serious parlay. Nothing shown so far suggests that Parson was even listening to the talks between Oss and Trem or that Parson even knows that diplomat Trem is the one doing the negotiating. Everything he was told prior to formulating his plan indicated that Slately would be conducting the parlay and (remember, according to Slately's own heir) that he would offer up joke terms as an insult before opening fire. We will never know if Parson would have considered a serious parlay if he had known that Trem might offer up serious concessions of some kind, but if he had, I'm sure he would have been completely unfazed by all Trem's insults that you find so scandalous, and he'd probably have a few snarky remarks in response. Trem certainly hasn't said anything as offensive to Oss as "Royalty is obsolete" was to Ansom.

4. Finally, I just can't wait until Trem actually does something that demonstrably and indisputably shows him to be a smart and canny diplomat, just so I can watch as the folks who say he's holding the idiot ball switch to complaining that he's a Gary Stu.:)
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