Book 2 – Text Updates 037

[kreszantas]

The Omega on her hat usually symbolizes, not future, but endings...

Well in the ancient Greek texts Omega is stated as the end. This is known in bibical references and mathematical so it can apply both directions. This will be an ending of the style they are currently viewing and for a better erfworld to begin, thus having dual symbolic reference.

[zilfallon]

Now all that remains is discovering the reasons why selling a second (3rd, 4th, ... many) nuke would be bad for those plans. If one PWL has a chance to end war, don't 2, 3, 4, many PWL have an increased chance of accomplishing that same goal?

It won't increase the chance. Think about it, they summoned a perfect warlord so he could overpower anyone, ultimately win and stop all the wars. But what would happen if those several perfect warlords fought each other? Another cycle of endless war. But other than this, I agree with your point and find Smoker's theory about "material components" good.

[Smoker]

Oberon's reasoning is more or less sound. This is why I'm placing my bet on the possibility that the casters involved were actually operating at a loss with this spell.

[DoctorJest]

Well in the ancient Greek texts Omega is stated as the end.

Erm, not exactly right. Omega is the 24th (and last) letter of the Greek Alphabet. It was used to denote the end of a set of something, but isn't "stated as the end", in some sort of apocalyptic sense.

This is known in bibical references

You mean one single biblical reference. Not "references".

and mathematical so it can apply both directions. This will be an ending of the style they are currently viewing and for a better erfworld to begin, thus having dual symbolic reference.

In mathematics it means alot of things, it really has about a dozen things tied to it. However, the one thing it doesn't really generally mean in mathematics is "the end"

But there's one thing it very commonly represents in our modern world that I think is worth noting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm

[happyturtle]

And Ohm is a homonym for Aum, the meditation mantra. Total Hippiemancy there.

[Lamech]

That argument loses all of its steam when you realize that they already sold a nuke. And that selling that nuke was an absolute requirement for their plans to proceed.

Now all that remains is discovering the reasons why selling a second (3rd, 4th, ... many) nuke would be bad for those plans. If one PWL has a chance to end war, don't 2, 3, 4, many PWL have an increased chance of accomplishing that same goal?

But they sold it to the people they wanted to use it. A side of their own chosing. They had casters in place to direct it. They did NOT sell it to a random side. And up until this day GK was on the way to world peace; throwing another perfect warlord into the mix could only stop GK. (Unless sold to GK obviously, but that would have to go through Stanley and that could be problematic.) So how would this second warlord help exactly?

The tri-link is risky, but those risks have been quantified: The casters lose their individuality, and may be mentally injured by calling them by name. There is also the possibility of backlash upon separation. These risks are fairly easily handled within the MK, recall that Janis was able to call for Thinkamancers to unlink the GK casters for a fairly trivial (not much more than what Sizemore payed her to take a brief class in Hippymancy) price in Rands, and that her offer to pay was refused. So the story shows that the risks of caster links within the MK are rather trivial, since the resources needed to overcome those risks are cheap and plentifully available.

If someone gets shot we might send them for surgery with a team of doctors, and the shot person would be more likely to live, but not guarrenteed. Something similar might be the case with the link up. Might be completely safe with enough thinkamancers, but we don't know. And you are misremembering the prices. It was 8 for the class and Janis said 50 per thinkamancer. In the end five got called, so we are looking at 250 or 30 times the price of a class from a grand abbie; nor do we know it was a short class
Nor do we have any reason to believe that free help is standard for people who chose to link up. Sizemore was well liked, famous and was probably assumed to have linked by an order; vastly different from a random caster linking of there own volition,for profit no less.

My bolds for emphasis. This is my point entirely. Regardless of having sent the PWL to GK to hopefully end war, having a pile of shmuckers has a value all its own. Look at the turning of the Western Giants. We don't know that it was a shmuckers deal, but we do know that natural allies can convert shmuckers into additional units, and that they have a desire to grow their population. If shmuckers weren't the enticement along with the promise of continued population growth, then I can't imagine what would cause the WG to turn on their natural allies. This is said to be a rare event, but we've seen it twice now, and both probably had elements of tribal growth involved.

GK has all the cash they need. If GK needs more cash they can sell the spell then. Actually before GK needs the cash since they have predictamancy.

[name lips]

Now all that remains is discovering the reasons why selling a second (3rd, 4th, ... many) nuke would be bad for those plans. If one PWL has a chance to end war, don't 2, 3, 4, many PWL have an increased chance of accomplishing that same goal?

It won't increase the chance. Think about it, they summoned a perfect warlord so he could overpower anyone, ultimately win and stop all the wars. But what would happen if those several perfect warlords fought each other? Another cycle of endless war.

This.

No guarantee all the Perfect Warlords would work together. If they oppose each other, you're right back where you started.

[Oberon]

That argument loses all of its steam when you realize that they already sold a nuke. And that selling that nuke was an absolute requirement for their plans to proceed.

Now all that remains is discovering the reasons why selling a second (3rd, 4th, ... many) nuke would be bad for those plans. If one PWL has a chance to end war, don't 2, 3, 4, many PWL have an increased chance of accomplishing that same goal?

But they sold it to the people they wanted to use it. A side of their own chosing. They had casters in place to direct it. They did NOT sell it to a random side.

Hrm, you seem to have read the latest update differently than I read it. The placing of the SPWL scroll with GK was Marie's doing, and not what Janis would have done. This indicates that there was more than one potential target for the scroll, and some disagreement about who it should have gone to. Janis being a rather laid back hippymancer seems to have been overruled by Marie. But that doesn't make Marie the authoritative source for the best placement of the SPWL scroll. And if there is more than one potential placement for the scroll, then there is more than one best case for a Side having a PWL. Which means that having more than one PWL is a good thing for the MK.

No guarantee all the Perfect Warlords would work together. If they oppose each other, you're right back where you started.

If there is no guarantee that all the PWL would work together, then there is no guarantee that a single PWL would work to further the goals of the MK conspirators. You can't have it both ways. There can't both be a single PWL who is somehow forced to work towards Erf peace while also being able to be in constant war with multiple PWL. If one PWL must work towards peace on Erf, than multiple PWL should be a better guarantor of that goal.

[oslecamo2]

No guarantee all the Perfect Warlords would work together. If they oppose each other, you're right back where you started.

If there is no guarantee that all the PWL would work together, then there is no guarantee that a single PWL would work to further the goals of the MK conspirators. You can't have it both ways. There can't both be a single PWL who is somehow forced to work towards Erf peace while also being able to be in constant war with multiple PWL. If one PWL must work towards peace on Erf, than multiple PWL should be a better guarantor of that goal.

-Hamster himself doesn't know he's suposed to be working for Erfworld peace.
-Hamster already showed he hates being manipulated. He likes being the one in charge and having freedom of action. He doesn't take orders, he gives them.

So really, if they summoned other PWL, Hamster would go "Finally a worthy oponent!", not "Hey, let's work togheter!". Because he would have no idea the other PWL were PWLs at all!

If they told Hamster he was actualy a pawn in a massive conspiracy and he needed to ally with the others PWL... Well I dunno what would happen, but it wouldn't be pretty, because Hamster would be very angry. You don't want to make Hamster angry.

Trying to keep one PWL in check and suporting him from behind the scenes is already hard enough for Janis. Multiple ones would be overwhelming and the chances the PWLs escape from their control or somebody understands Janis and the others are behind it would be certain.

[CNagy]

If there is no guarantee that all the PWL would work together, then there is no guarantee that a single PWL would work to further the goals of the MK conspirators. You can't have it both ways. There can't both be a single PWL who is somehow forced to work towards Erf peace while also being able to be in constant war with multiple PWL. If one PWL must work towards peace on Erf, than multiple PWL should be a better guarantor of that goal.

The state of Erf pre-Parson is multiple sides in constant warfare where the status quo remains more or less unchanged. Sides fall, new sides rise, but on the whole Erfworlders are deadlocked by their mastery of the basics of their rules of warfare. When you introduce a tactical genius in that scenario, and allow that he has enough resources at his disposal, you change the balance of the game. The perfect warlord begins to win battle after battle, consolidating his strength while reducing the ability of his enemies to halt his advance. Winning the game essentially means a One Side World.

Introduce a second perfect warlord, give him the necessary resources to stage a resistance, and he may move to a position of equal strength. Then you have a Two Side World, where each side is theoretically too large to be consumed by the other, where each side gains and loses in skirmishes each turn. One more perfect warlord, and it might as well be Oceania, Eurasia, and Eastasia. It is a return to the status quo, only with more capable commanders.

A single perfect warlord is not forced to work towards peace--peace is the end result of his desire to win and his ability to do so against the level of his opponents. From the Erf perspective, warlords wage war, and a perfect warlord will wage war until there is no more war to wage. From our perspective, a gamer plays to win, and by winning ends the game. Which results in Erf peace, at least in theory.

[zilfallon]

A single perfect warlord is not forced to work towards peace--peace is the end result of his desire to win and his ability to do so against the level of his opponents. From the Erf perspective, warlords wage war, and a perfect warlord will wage war until there is no more war to wage. From our perspective, a gamer plays to win, and by winning ends the game. Which results in Erf peace, at least in theory.

Well said! That's why Marie doesn't have to control Parson.

[Lamech]

Hrm, you seem to have read the latest update differently than I read it. The placing of the SPWL scroll with GK was Marie's doing, and not what Janis would have done. This indicates that there was more than one potential target for the scroll, and some disagreement about who it should have gone to. Janis being a rather laid back hippymancer seems to have been overruled by Marie. But that doesn't make Marie the authoritative source for the best placement of the SPWL scroll. And if there is more than one potential placement for the scroll, then there is more than one best case for a Side having a PWL. Which means that having more than one PWL is a good thing for the MK.

Having more than one option does not mean the best choice is all of them. There is a reason why people have to choose between medical treatments.

If there is no guarantee that all the PWL would work together, then there is no guarantee that a single PWL would work to further the goals of the MK conspirators. You can't have it both ways. There can't both be a single PWL who is somehow forced to work towards Erf peace while also being able to be in constant war with multiple PWL. If one PWL must work towards peace on Erf, than multiple PWL should be a better guarantor of that goal.

If the perfect warlord will say... seek for his side to rule the world, then if he wins erf will have peace. If two perfect warlords are trying to rule the world you would run into a problem.
Working together and being peaceful with others is the oppisite of conquering everyone. You can totally have a warlord with the second but not the first.


Also back to selling the spell for profit: Even if the supply cost to make the spell is free other things might be more profitable. Perhaps summon really good archon scrolls sell for 10k and 100 can be made as easy as a summon perfect warlord spell.

[GaryThunder]

Adroitly stated, CNagy.

[Kyrt]

Book 1, Page 54 Sizemore says 4 link hookups can't be done. With his wide interest in magic theory, I'd expect his knowledge to be accurate.

Probably. However, whats not given is an explanantion as to why they can't be done. Are they simply impossible? Too risky to even attempt? Is there some other factor at play?

[zilfallon]

Book 1, Page 54 Sizemore says 4 link hookups can't be done. With his wide interest in magic theory, I'd expect his knowledge to be accurate.

Probably. However, whats not given is an explanantion as to why they can't be done. Are they simply impossible? Too risky to even attempt? Is there some other factor at play?

I think "Four can't even be done" means that it is impossible just to establish the quad-link (forget about maintaining it to actually cast a spell or to break it without risks)

[nth]

If one PWL must work towards peace on Erf, than multiple PWL should be a better guarantor of that goal.

If one driver operates a car successfully, then multiple drivers at once should be a better guarantor of that goal.

If one meal must make you healthier, then multiple meals at once should be a better guarantor of that goal.

If one sentence in your mouth must make you communicate clearly, then saying multiple sentences at once should be a better guarantor of that goal.

If one brain surgeon with his scalpel in your brain must operate well, then multiple surgeons at once should be a better guarantor of that goal.

If multiple proctologists... nah. leave it.

[GaryThunder]

But, see, while we on Earth realize that logic as fallacious, Erfworld units might think otherwise...force-multiplication solves just about every single problem in Erfworld, since the only real problems occur in a combat context. Can't win this fight? Throw some more warlords at it, stack some more bonuses.

[zilfallon]

But, see, while we on Earth realize that logic as fallacious, Erfworld units might think otherwise...force-multiplication solves just about every single problem in Erfworld, since the only real problems occur in a combat context. Can't win this fight? Throw some more warlords at it, stack some more bonuses.

I'm repeating myself again: Problem isn't about being able to win the fight or not. One Perfect Warlord means that the status quo will be broken and one faction will have a huge advantage, thus making it possible for one side to end all other factions and bring "peace". If you summoned more perfect warlords and they ended up working for different sides, it would become just another cycle of war.

[Althernai]

That argument loses all of its steam when you realize that they already sold a nuke. And that selling that nuke was an absolute requirement for their plans to proceed.

But they did not sell it for profit, they placed it. The money was incidental; Marie had decided to give Wanda's side the perfect warlord and selling it was the easiest way to pass this off as normal Magic Kingdom business.

Now all that remains is discovering the reasons why selling a second (3rd, 4th, ... many) nuke would be bad for those plans. If one PWL has a chance to end war, don't 2, 3, 4, many PWL have an increased chance of accomplishing that same goal?

Either equal or less. Equal because it's entirely possible that there is exactly one perfect warlord for the Erfworld universe and the spell already got him the first time (i.e. future castings would just be moving Parson from one side to another). Another instance of equality is if they simply fight each other until there is only one left. Less would be if they get into a position where no single one can win or lose. I don't see how more than one would be helpful.

[random_guy]

Another way we can look at issue of how rare the summoning scroll is to consider the fact that a predictamancer is involved. Maybe the predictamancer predicted there would be disaster if multiple perfect warlords were summoned. Also, remember that Kingworld took up two turns worth of juice. It's also possible they only had enough juice to create one scroll, and they did not have an opportunity to create another scroll once the broke the link up. A repeat of the particular tri-mancer link in question is unlikely, since it was conducted in secret and depended on Janis' connections in order to gather the right casters. Janis is unlikely to work towards summoning another warlord to compete against Parson. It seems like Janis is arguably a well known and well connected hippiemancer (Sizemore said she was a Grand Abbie, implying some kind of special status among hippiemancers), so it's also unlikely that someone else would have the right connections to gather the casters necessary to create a similar scroll (at least not in secret). One way for another perfect warlord to appear would be having someone hire the necessary casters and ordering them to create the scroll or summon the perfect warlord. Another possibility is having the spell that originally summoned Parson summon another warlord. From Book 1, we know the spell summons additional items with the Stupid Meals in order to make him a perfect warlord. If Fate or the Titans decide that a perfect warlord requires a perfect opponent to test his worth, then it may summon one of his friends to oppose him.

I can't help but feel sorry for Sizemore after seeing this update. In Book 1, the one warlord who actually befriended him turns out to be someone who gave him orders to contradicted his personal feelings regarding warfare. This update reveals that one of his few remaining friends in the Magic Kingdom is involved in a long running plot related to his faction. Janis had been working with Marie since before we saw Janis and Sizemore together in Book 1. It would be bad for Sizemore if Janis' friendship with him was formed for the purpose of gathering information about Gobwin Knob in order to further Janis' involvement in Marie's plot. It looks like Janis is making an attempt to bring Sizemore into their inner circle, but considering the fact she had kept him out of the loop for so long, how much value does she place on their friendship?