Book 2 – Text Updates 037

[nth]

Oh jolly good a Christmas (Eve) update!

Absolutely! I'm still trying (not?) to figure out where the missing ribbon-end is!

[oslecamo2]

One thing we can't forget it's that Stanley himself gave the SPW a touch of his own. He ordered Wanda to get someone who would wage war for fun, and that actually wanted to be summoned to a world that works as a board game. And some extras like eating marbits for breakfast.

Wich raises the question, who would've been summoned if Stanley had just let Wanda have her full way?

[MattR]

It All makes sense now, Charlie is Banhammer!

[Dr Pepper]

Oh jolly good a Christmas (Eve) update!

Absolutely! I'm still trying (not?) to figure out where the missing ribbon-end is!

And where's the one of Ossamer in his sword belt? Equal opportunity, you know.

[Oberon]

-Hamster himself doesn't know he's suposed to be working for Erfworld peace.

Here you make my point for me. If he doesn't know and is still advancing that plan, then what problem is there with having multiple PWLs also not knowing but also advancing that same plan?

-Hamster already showed he hates being manipulated. He likes being the one in charge and having freedom of action. He doesn't take orders, he gives them.

So really, if they summoned other PWL, Hamster would go "Finally a worthy oponent!", not "Hey, let's work togheter!". Because he would have no idea the other PWL were PWLs at all!

And here I just have to disagree with you completely on both of your points. Parson knows full well that Stanley owns him and orders him around at will. The slap was just one reminder of that fact. And yet we have never seen Parson griping about being under Stanley's orders, other than the very mild "have to save against death by annoyance" anytime he needed to ask Stanley for information.

And we have never seen Parson spoiling for a fight, or relishing in the anticipation of facing a "worthy" opponent.

You have mischaracterized Parson completely.

[Dr Pepper]

One thing we can't forget it's that Stanley himself gave the SPW a touch of his own. He ordered Wanda to get someone who would wage war for fun, and that actually wanted to be summoned to a world that works as a board game. And some extras like eating marbits for breakfast.

Wich raises the question, who would've been summoned if Stanley had just let Wanda have her full way?

Obsidian Abnormal

[Oberon]

If one PWL must work towards peace on Erf, than multiple PWL should be a better guarantor of that goal.

If one driver operates a car successfully, then multiple drivers at once should be a better guarantor of that goal.

If one meal must make you healthier, then multiple meals at once should be a better guarantor of that goal.

If one sentence in your mouth must make you communicate clearly, then saying multiple sentences at once should be a better guarantor of that goal.

If one brain surgeon with his scalpel in your brain must operate well, then multiple surgeons at once should be a better guarantor of that goal.

If multiple proctologists... nah. leave it.

If one driver operates a car successfully, then multiple drivers in multiple cars at once will operate many cars successfully.
If one meal must make you healthier, then multiple meals for multiple people at once makes for pleasant dinner company.
If one sentence in your mouth must make you communicate clearly, then many people speaking multiple sentences makes for interesting conversations during that that pleasant dinner.
If one brain surgeon with his scalpel in your brain must operate well, then multiple surgeons operating at once help many brains at the same time.

If one person feeding the poor help to relieve hunger, than many people feeding the poor are better.
If one person laying down their weapons helps peace, then many people laying down their weapons are better.

I could go on, but I hope my point is made. Looking for exceptions to a rule or making ridiculous hypotheticals doesn't mean that the rule is not valid or that the hypotheticals are valid.

I've yet to hear any rationale why multiple PWL would not be a good thing, other than the presumption that they must fight each other. And Parson's personality is not that of a person spoiling for a fight. Right now, he fights when forced to fight, and I'm not seeing any disadvantage to having multiple PWLs on Erf who fight only when forced to. Instead, I'm seeing notes on how to possibly perpetuate a Side without conflict. And I fail to see how having many people pondering this same potential is a bad thing. A Renaissance isn't brought about by a single person, it takes a group, a culture, many people all contributing to the same advancement of thought.

[CNagy]

I've yet to hear any rationale why multiple PWL would not be a good thing, other than the presumption that they must fight each other. And Parson's personality is not that of a person spoiling for a fight. Right now, he fights when forced to fight, and I'm not seeing any disadvantage to having multiple PWLs on Erf who fight only when forced to. Instead, I'm seeing notes on how to possibly perpetuate a Side without conflict. And I fail to see how having many people pondering this same potential is a bad thing. A Renaissance isn't brought about by a single person, it takes a group, a culture, many people all contributing to the same advancement of thought.

Parson is subject to the whims of Stanley. By that same token, any other warlords (perfect or otherwise) would be subject to the whims of their rulers--giving them plenty of incentive to fight their side's enemies. That is to say, their lives would depend on it. It would be another matter entirely if the perfect warlords managed to ascend to rulership, but so long as they are controlled by Erfworld natives, the simplest and most certain method of ending war is achieved by having a single perfect warlord who can lead his side to victory over all others.

Erfworlders have been warring forever. FAQ was more or less an aberration for its ability to stay peaceful as a side (and that peace was certainly not permanent.) Put a perfect warlord under the control of an Erf ruler, and that ruler will make use of him. Coalitions and alliances form to deal with certain threats, but we have no reason to believe that any alliance is permanent.

Bringing peace to Erf is not like ushering in a Renaissance--it is more like building Alexander the Great's empire. Add two more Alexanders to the equation, and maybe they will complete the empire three times as quickly. Or maybe they'll just carve the world into three empires. Fewer sides, but perpetual war remains. In crafting the solution to any problem, it is the plan with the fewest number of assumptions that bears the greatest chance of succeeding. With one perfect warlord, you don't have to assume he will get along with his equals because he will have none.

[mp122984]

I've found this "Why no Multiple SPWs" a fascinating question, and I'll give my take on it, of that's okay. Granted, much of my take is just what other people have said in fewer words, but I'll try anyways.

1) As others have noted, the cost of the SPW scroll to GK may have been a heavy discount. It's possible that those involved only had enough resources to make the one. Even if the spell is profitable long-term, that can't be exploited if you lack the capital to mass-produce them.
1a) The profit, if any, goes to the side that bought the scroll, not the MK conspiracy. The MK trying to profit from the bracer,sword, etc. would be like selling a car to someone, waiting for the buyer to make improvements, and then demanding to take the improvements. It probably wouldn't fly.

2) We know what happens when you have many sides that each have competent warlords - Erfworld. Even if it wouldn't be the case, convincing people that giving each side perfect warlords wouldn't make everything the same but worse would be difficult.

3) Having more than one Perfect Warlord in Erfworld is basically begging to have the spell itself exposed once they start talking to each other, even if only to gloat. If the SPW spell were to become openly known, I'd expect at lease one of the following things to happen.
-A side realizes that the Magic Kingdom is trying to manipulate them for their own purposes, goes to wipe them out.
-A side realizes that the Magic Kingdom sold their enemies the very thing that is kicking their own butts, goes to wipe them out.
-Every side decides to buy a SPW spell in order to summon a Perfect Warlord for the express purpose of causing war, essentially ruining the whole conspiracy.

4) Those involved in the conspiracy aren't in it for the money - they're in it for the Warlord who's going to end war. I imagine a lot of casters are like Janis right now - deeply concerned that they've been sold a bill of goods. (Could that be part of the reason that Parson et al are being treated harshly by the Magic Kingdom?) Anyone who's thoughts right now are, "they're destroying everything! This is the opposite of peace!" would probably not want to try the spell again.

These discussions are cool, so thanks for hearing me out.

[ftl]

If one driver operates a car successfully, then multiple drivers in multiple cars at once will operate many cars successfully.
If one meal must make you healthier, then multiple meals for multiple people at once makes for pleasant dinner company.
If one sentence in your mouth must make you communicate clearly, then many people speaking multiple sentences makes for interesting conversations during that that pleasant dinner.
If one brain surgeon with his scalpel in your brain must operate well, then multiple surgeons operating at once help many brains at the same time.

If one person feeding the poor help to relieve hunger, than many people feeding the poor are better.
If one person laying down their weapons helps peace, then many people laying down their weapons are better.

I could go on, but I hope my point is made.

The point is made. Sometimes it's one, sometimes it's the other, depending on what your goals are and what tools are available. Multiple drivers only helps if you have multiple cars, and if the thing you're trying to transport is large enough that it needs multiple cars and divisible enough to be split up. If one meal makes you healthier, then multiple meals may make you healthier or less healthy depending on when you eat them and what's in them. If one sentence makes you communicate clearly, then multiple sentences might make you communicate more or less clearly, depending on whether what you're trying to communicate needs more than one sentence to explain. (Too many words to explain something simple is also a bad thing.) If one brain surgeon with his scalpel in your brain operates well, then multiple surgeons may be helpful or unhelpful depending on the problem at hand - if there's multiple patients then they help, if there's only one patient then they don't.

If one dose of medicine makes you get better, then multiple doses might make you heal faster or might kill you, depending on what the medicine is and the affliction that's being treated. (Actually, that's my favorite analogy so far.)

Looking for exceptions to a rule or making ridiculous hypotheticals doesn't mean that the rule is not valid or that the hypotheticals are valid.

It's not a rule in the first place.

In software development, the rule is "adding more people to a late project makes it later, not faster." Everyone knows the expression "too many cooks spoil the broth."

I've yet to hear any rationale why multiple PWL would not be a good thing, other than the presumption that they must fight each other.

If there is one PWL, then that PWL is head and shoulders above everyone else on Erf.

If there's multiple PWLs, suddenly there isn't one "Best Warlord" - there's multiple ones that are even with each other. Which is the current status quo - a bunch of sides each having roughly equally-competent warlords.

There's a big qualitative difference between "one person better than everyone else" and "multiple good warlords." The latter is already the status quo - having multiple new warlords might end up changing nothing at all, whereas having Just One rise above the rest changes things around.

And Parson's personality is not that of a person spoiling for a fight. Right now, he fights when forced to fight, and I'm not seeing any disadvantage to having multiple PWLs on Erf who fight only when forced to.

Well, once they found out about each other, they probably WOULD be forced to - because each would correctly recognize the other as the greatest threat around.

Instead, I'm seeing notes on how to possibly perpetuate a Side without conflict.

Notes on how to possibly perpetuate a Side without conflict... while at the same time, making the bloodiest and most efficient slaughter that Erf has ever seen. It's a nice contradiction, which is sort of the point.

And I fail to see how having many people pondering this same potential is a bad thing. A Renaissance isn't brought about by a single person, it takes a group, a culture, many people all contributing to the same advancement of thought.

You're assuming we're looking for a renaissance. Yes, the renaissance was brought forth by multiple people Thinking About Things. On the other hand, the Pax Romana was brought about by one empire conquering everything it could see.

Again - it all depends on how exactly Parson is supposed to bring about peace on Erf. I think I'll start a separate thread about it, because I've got at least a half-dozen different ideas for what Janis and Marie may have in mind.

[Oberon]

-A side realizes that the Magic Kingdom is trying to manipulate them for their own purposes, goes to wipe them out.
-A side realizes that the Magic Kingdom sold their enemies the very thing that is kicking their own butts, goes to wipe them out.

I'll entertain anyone's theory, as long as it makes some sense. Please elaborate, how exactly would a Side "go wipe out" the MK?

[mp122984]

-A side realizes that the Magic Kingdom is trying to manipulate them for their own purposes, goes to wipe them out.
-A side realizes that the Magic Kingdom sold their enemies the very thing that is kicking their own butts, goes to wipe them out.

I'll entertain anyone's theory, as long as it makes some sense. Please elaborate, how exactly would a Side "go wipe out" the MK?

Probably by sending in their own casters and/or convincing the ones already there to put an end to the business. Starting a civil war, essentially. Assuming that one hasn't already started if the cat is ever let out of the bag.

[GaryThunder]

The thought occurs that SPW cannot possibly be correctly cast more than once, no matter what convoluted links are created or what machinations the Magic Kingdom has in mind. Perfect is unmodifiable, like unique. You can't be more perfect or less perfect, you're either perfect or you aren't. Casting SPW twice would result in one Perfect Warlord and another warlord who - unless he is the exact carbon copy of the first PW in every single aspect - is not perfect. The second will be either more or less competent than the first, which means one of them isn't perfect, which violates the conditions of the spell.* It isn't Summon Extremely Good Warlord, it's Summon Perfect Warlord. Granted, the casting could be screwed up and an imperfect but still extremely good warlord might be summoned (as has been repeatedly hinted at regarding Parson), but then the EGW you end up with won't have the same game-breaking effects a PW would.

And as for wiping out the Magic Kingdom, that all depends on whether the portals are the only access to the MK as opposed to the most convenient access. For all we know, the MK exists somewhere on Erfworld, but it's so far away/unreachable by traditional means that the portals are the only feasible way of getting back and forth to it. If that's true, then it is possible, however impractical, for a traditional army to attack and possibly destroy the MK. But even if that were possible, any force attacking the MK would have to contend with (dozens? scores? hundreds? MK population is unclear) some large amount of casters defending the place, which seems very difficult to overcome given what game-breakers casters are in this system. Their Predictamancer population would seem to make sneak attacks impossible, and with time to prepare, they could set up some horrifyingly powerful linked spells...Even if you could get to the MK, actually wiping it out is a completely different story. (Though I'll just bet that Parson has already given it some thought.)

Hee...if casters can indeed be Decrypted and keep their casting intact, then Wanda could, theoretically, steadily amass an army of Decrypted casters to swarm the place through the portals themselves. But, again, the MK's Predictamancers would be shrieking warnings of this onslaught many turns before it was anywhere close to feasible.


*It is theoretically possible for two warlords to both be equally perfect through different means. Imagine two swords created by the best swordsmith in all creation, which he apprises as being exactly alike in quality and craftsmanship, but one's a claymore and one's a katana. But then that just raises a storm of questions, chief among them being "What defines a 'perfect' warlord anyway?" Hair-splitting like that doesn't make for particularly good storytelling.

[ftl]

3) Having more than one Perfect Warlord in Erfworld is basically begging to have the spell itself exposed once they start talking to each other, even if only to gloat. If the SPW spell were to become openly known, I'd expect at lease one of the following things to happen.
-A side realizes that the Magic Kingdom is trying to manipulate them for their own purposes, goes to wipe them out.
-A side realizes that the Magic Kingdom sold their enemies the very thing that is kicking their own butts, goes to wipe them out.

Besides, it's not even "The MK" that sold them anything. It's Janis, Marie, and a few other casters. There's probably other casters out there working for other sides or for other goals. I'm not at all convinced that Janis or Marie represent the will of the majority of the MK casters or any sort of central authority that they have (if they even have a central authority.) Are you?

You're literally saying that when a side finds out that some casters sold their enemies something powerful... their response is going to be to try to destroy all barbarian casters? That sounds pointless - if a side finds out that some casters sold their enemies something powerful, the most likely response is to send their own casters to buy something more powerful. It's a lot easier to wipe out an enemy, even one supported by some extra barbarian casters, than to take on ALL BARBARIAN CASTERS, most of whom wouldn't give a whit about your conflict (until you attack them) - IN ADDITION to the enemy that they're helping.

[happyturtle]

War on the MK? Destroy the portals. Forbid your casters from going there. Attack any barbarian caster that you see. Find ways to discourage other sides from dealing with the MK - bribery or threats. Force MK to take sides, and then they aren't neutral and inviolable anymore. Yeah, war on MK could happen. Might even be part of what has to happen to break Erf enough to end war.

[GaryThunder]

My Predictamancer comments caused me to think further on the nature of Predictamancers and Fate. Predictions seem to be inviolable, though open to broad interpretation. This seems to suggest that Predictamancers are actually kind of useless, because once a Prediction is made it can't be changed. Marie Predicted that Faq would fall someday, so Banhammer ordered an heir popped. But this did not stop Faq from falling. Granted, it gave Faq the ability to revive itself after a while...but Jillian's Faq is so very different from Banhammer's Faq that it seems unlikely that Banhammer would see Jillian's Faq as a true continuation of his side.

In this vein, if a side gears up to attack the Magic Kingdom through any means and the Predictamancers see it coming...what can they do? If Marie Predicts one day that the MK will suffer a massive onslaught and eventually fall, nothing the MK does can possibly avert this outcome. So Predictions don't seem to amount to much when it comes to planning strategy. Their real use is to plan around events you know will occur, rather than foreseeing events and taking steps to stop them.

Unless Predictions are not inviolable and can be averted. But then you have a "deadly embrace" conundrum between the MK Predictamancers and any Predictamancers on the attacking side.

MK: Crap in a basket, we're going to be attacked through this portal on this turn! We'd better put a whole boopload of defenses and traps there to counter it.
Side: Hey, we're going to attack here and - blast everything, they're fortifying that portal. We'd better use a different strategy.
MK: They're coming in a different way! Move the fortifications to this new spot!
Side: They've moved their defenses! Change the plan of attack!
MK: They changed their attack! Change the defense!

Etc, etc, etc. It would come down to who screwed up first, either by making incorrect Predictions or by failing to appropriately respond to them. Until that happened, both teams would just have to sit around and listen to their Predictamancers babble.

[mp122984]

3) Having more than one Perfect Warlord in Erfworld is basically begging to have the spell itself exposed once they start talking to each other, even if only to gloat. If the SPW spell were to become openly known, I'd expect at lease one of the following things to happen.
-A side realizes that the Magic Kingdom is trying to manipulate them for their own purposes, goes to wipe them out.
-A side realizes that the Magic Kingdom sold their enemies the very thing that is kicking their own butts, goes to wipe them out.

Besides, it's not even "The MK" that sold them anything. It's Janis, Marie, and a few other casters. There's probably other casters out there working for other sides or for other goals. I'm not at all convinced that Janis or Marie represent the will of the majority of the MK casters or any sort of central authority that they have (if they even have a central authority.) Are you?

Perhaps I was too thrift in my words, conflating the Magic Kingdom with the conspiracy itself. Still, as the update says, Janis had enough pull to get the spell made. She's a Grand Abbie. And when Parson was being held at wandpoint, Janis as the one who ordered that he be guarded instead of killed, and was told that the Thinkamancers she needed would be willing to work for free. While there may not be a central authority, Janis probably does have more influence than any other MK inhabitant we've seen so far. If anyone ever ties the spell back to her or Marie, she (and we) are going to learn the hard way just how much she represents the MK.

You're literally saying that when a side finds out that some casters sold their enemies something powerful... their response is going to be to try to destroy all barbarian casters? That sounds pointless - if a side finds out that some casters sold their enemies something powerful, the most likely response is to send their own casters to buy something more powerful. It's a lot easier to wipe out an enemy, even one supported by some extra barbarian casters, than to take on ALL BARBARIAN CASTERS, most of whom wouldn't give a whit about your conflict (until you attack them) - IN ADDITION to the enemy that they're helping.

I did note that some kingdoms might attempt to buy the spell themselves. As for response, it might happen if a side feels it's worth the risk to remove the spell from play.

[Balance]

For the proponents of making SPW spells for profit--the reason the spell produced the artifacts is because it was compensating for being miscast. There is no reason to believe that it would be possible to reliably reproduce those results, or even to reproduce them at all. Even if you could deliberately produce a (slightly Im-)Perfect Warlord every time, they would likely be imperfect in different ways, resulting in the spell compensating with different items, which might well be worthless.

Some possible outcomes of the spell:

This Warlord is perfect in every way...except he lost a leg in a war on his world. They get a prosthetic leg that fits him perfectly, and is useless to everyone else on Erf.

That Warlord is perfect in every way...except he can't see stats. They get the glasses, a magic item that does something everyone else on Erf can do naturally.

The other Warlord is perfect in every way. She's a ruthless natural mathamancer with the psychic ability to read stats, fights like a demon, has an eidetic memory for the history of battle, and is at least as inventive as Parson. They get nothing (except a perfect warlord who may pose a major threat to their plans).

[President_Allosaurus]

Oh jolly good a Christmas (Eve) update!

Absolutely! I'm still trying (not?) to figure out where the missing ribbon-end is!

Is it foolamancy, or is Wanda turning us into fools?

[Smoker]

See, I dont really agree that making extra PWLs is a good idea, but you cant say definitively that it isn't, either.

What it comes down to, is Parson's purpose in erfworld. If he is supposed to conquer the whole world, then yep. One Warlord is the way to go. The One Side World can only happen if there's only one PWL, and he creams all the other sides.

Two PWLs, or more, would only make the situation worse, because as stated before, all the PWLs are forced by their Rulers to continue the game of Erfworld, and a world of two or three allied sides cannot be relied upon to last.

However.

If Parson's goal is to break some rules, re-arrange the social structure, teach the people of Erfworld something about free-will, or whatever, then this can be done simultaneously in different parts of the map. In fact, because nobody really knows the extent of Erfworld, it's probably an awesome idea to pepper a couple of PWL's around the map, to reduce the time it takes for one new culture to spread to the ends of the world.

If they could.

The fact that they haven't, tells me that either; Parson's goals can only be acheived by one person, or the creation of another such spell is impossible.


Also: Attacking the MK is an excellent way to commit suicide. If you can imagine all those casters geared up for war, in dozens of trimancer links, protected by all kinds of foolamancy and backed up by dolls, golems and uncroaked.. plus all the abilities/units we dont know about.. No sane side would take that on, and any insane side that did would lose.