Book 2 – Text Updates 037

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby oslecamo2 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:27 am

Oberon wrote:
oslecamo2 wrote:-Hamster himself doesn't know he's suposed to be working for Erfworld peace.
Here you make my point for me. If he doesn't know and is still advancing that plan, then what problem is there with having multiple PWLs also not knowing but also advancing that same plan?

Because that's a recipe for disaster, since the current plan it's based in the fact that no one in Erfworld is good enough to beat Hamster in tactics.

If you add more people that can match Hamster's tactical genius, then we go back to a stalemate.

Really, it's like puting two spiders in a cage full of flies. One spider will eats the flies unmolested. Two spiders in an enclosed space will fight each other to the death, and then you're either have just one spider or one wounded spider. You gained nothing, and probably lost something.

Oberon wrote:
oslecamo2 wrote:-Hamster already showed he hates being manipulated. He likes being the one in charge and having freedom of action. He doesn't take orders, he gives them.

So really, if they summoned other PWL, Hamster would go "Finally a worthy oponent!", not "Hey, let's work togheter!". Because he would have no idea the other PWL were PWLs at all!
And here I just have to disagree with you completely on both of your points. Parson knows full well that Stanley owns him and orders him around at will. The slap was just one reminder of that fact. And yet we have never seen Parson griping about being under Stanley's orders, other than the very mild "have to save against death by annoyance" anytime he needed to ask Stanley for information.

Because Stanley is very easy to manipulate!
He can be annoying yes, but say the right words and you have him dancing at the tune of your music. Or sugestion spell if you're in an hurry. Plus both Wanda and Maggie are more than willing to give Hamster a hand in being the real guy in charge of GK.

One slap now and then is a perfectly aceptable price to command your personal army I would say. :twisted:

Oberon wrote:And we have never seen Parson spoiling for a fight, or relishing in the anticipation of facing a "worthy" opponent.

You have mischaracterized Parson completely.


The comic starts with Hamster claiming how he wants to be summoned. He orders his warlords to scream LEEEERRRROOOOYYY JJJEENNNKKKIIINNNSSS! He plans tactical scenarios all the time. What else do you need? For Hamster to cut himself and bath in his own blood while releasing earth-shaking warcries

He may not want to actually face a "worthy" oponent, I'll give you that, but he sure as well doesn't want alliances as well, since so far he sees parleys only as a distraction to kick his oponents in the balls.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby Smoker » Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:14 am

In all fairness, we've never seen Parson interact with anybody who would even consider an alliance with him, except Charlie (and by alliance in this case we mean contract).

Parson strikes me as a person who would take up an alliance in a second if it were tactically sound, and possibly if it were not.

That's an interesting scenario.. what would Parson say to a much weaker, nearby side that asked for an alliance? Would he accept outright as a way to reduce bloodshed (so to speak - Erfworlders dont bleed) or would Duty compell him to crush the smaller side for profit?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby Raza » Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:58 am

Oberon wrote:
Raza wrote:At least now we can cut the "Why doesn't everybody buy ten perfect warlord spells and sell the bracers?" crap. Only one was made and guided to the right hands, probably empowered by fate itself in supplying things like the bracer.
No, we can't. And it's not "crap", unless you just want to blindly accept things without doing a little prodding at the logic behind them. Yes, only one was made, and it was made with a specific customer in mind. A customer who still had to pay for it, remember. This isn't the One Ring we're talking about, it's a scroll made by a tri-mancer link. And for 500k shmuckers, or even 350k, there isn't a whole lot of compelling reasons why more wouldn't be made for any other interested customers, or even in advance with a similar sale in mind. This is only logically speaking, of course. If we drag plot into it then it just becomes an author fiat that no more will be made, no matter how logical it might be that splitting 350k or 500k shmuckers between three casters might be seen as something that those three casters might want to do a few more times.

It was crap. The whole idea was based on multiplayer game logic, where NPCs do nothing but stand in place all day offering their services indiscriminately, and ten people initiating the same mechanic will trigger the same result. Erfworld is a game-like world, but even games only ignore individual circumstances on such a level to preserve programming and computing time, so this was never a trait that we could reasonably expect it to have adopted.

Today's update only specifies those complications behind the spell that would have been likely, even necessary in in any detailed fictional universe. 'Plot' is not a force unique to fiction that is 'dragged in to this', but rather a depiction of individual motives, psychologies, fortunes and circumstances that would certainly affect similarly esoteric events in the real world.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:25 pm

When a discussion reaches a "no, you" point, it's best if all involved pack up and return to their respective homes. Are we going to start flinging is-not, is-too now on whether questioning the wisdom of only summoning one Perfect Warlord was crap?

I think Smoker has it right in this discussion. It really matters lots what the purpose of summoning a Perfect Warlord was. And there are more things to consider.

For example, Parson may, in fact, be just the first* PWL that was summoned. Walk before you run, ya know; trial run first, then add more to the mix later.
(*: or second, or some-such number, basically the MK conspiracy first wants to see how these PWLs turn out before starting to summon them en-masse).

Another possibility to consider is suggested by our own world. Stalemate can be somewhat effective in ensuring peace. Remember the Cold War: two powerful sides**, anxious to provoke each other directly (resulting instead in several proxy wars and the Space Race).
(**: no comment on whether said sides were as powerful as each thought the other to be. But they perceived each other as very dangerous, and at least in some regards they were.)

And since the above leans too much to the More-PWL camp, I'll just say that there are possible scenarios in which you'd want only one PWL acting around, like, as has been suggested, to create one world-spanning empire.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby effataigus » Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:15 pm

I am a little bit alarmed by one aspect of what we now know to be true. The mastermind behind this plan, and the woman holding all of the cards here, is fundamentally a unit of Faq.

Her side has a new leader, yet she hasn't gone back to Faq. How has she been able to avoid this? Is she loyal to fate magic and not to Jillian? Did Banhammer put her up to this whole cockamamy scheme? Did she hire a turnamancer to free her after getting to the MK? Or... is this whole plan just a highly convoluted power play for Faq?

Friend or not, I'd be much more worried about being used than Janis is given what we know to be true about loyalty... and given how well Faq is faring in all of this so far.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:18 pm

effataigus wrote:I am a little bit alarmed by one aspect of what we now know to be true. The mastermind behind this plan, and the woman holding all of the cards here, is fundamentally a unit of Faq.


Thine tinfoil is of the highest quality. Excellent suggestion!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby GaryThunder » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:42 pm

A stalemate is impossible given the physics of Erfworld. Sides exist at a default negative upkeep, given Parson's speculations about a zero/positive upkeep side being even possible. The only way to keep a side intact at the moment is to attack people and take their resources.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:51 pm

GaryThunder wrote:A stalemate is impossible given the physics of Erfworld. Sides exist at a default negative upkeep, given Parson's speculations about a zero/positive upkeep side being even possible. The only way to keep a side intact at the moment is to attack people and take their resources.


Money doesn't grow on trees on Earth, either. "Sides" here also exist with "negative upkeep".

Ok, so Earth economies can produce stuff, and thus bring their upkeep to positive. It would be shocking if this was not the case on Erfworld. You must have somewhere to get the Schmuckers from (mining for gems is a possibility that we already know of), for if the only way to get money is to steal someone else's, and you need to make some of that money disappear each turn by paying upkeep, then soon enough nobody has any money left.

So I don't see why stalemates would be impossible by that argument.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby Urf » Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:24 pm

Has anyone mentioned that Marie might not originally be from Faq?

Unless she's been drawn incorrectly, her eyes suggest she originates from somewhere else.

Wanda, Jillian, Jack, they all have sclera. Marie does not.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby Native Jovian » Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:05 pm

effataigus wrote:Her side has a new leader, yet she hasn't gone back to Faq. How has she been able to avoid this? Is she loyal to fate magic and not to Jillian? Did Banhammer put her up to this whole cockamamy scheme? Did she hire a turnamancer to free her after getting to the MK?

I'm pretty sure that once the side ended she became a barbarian, just like Jillian, so she's free from loyalty to Faq. Jillian's Faq isn't a resurrection of an old side -- it's a completely new side that happens to be called the same thing. Any surviving units from the old Faq (which would now be barbarians) have no reason to be loyal to the new Faq.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby joosy » Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:05 pm

reposting from page 3:
=============================
Those wondering about Wanda's loyalty...

I believe this may have to do with the very nature and goals of the kingdom of Faq itself. This was a supposedly impossible bubble kingdom. It existed in complete contradiction of the rest of the world that they knew.

I imagine that during the discussions of the royal court at Faq, there was some wondering on how they could change the rest of the world so that they would no longer have to live in secret and in constant fear of being detected.

This may have been a plan of Banhammer's but i don't think he intended for himself to croak or he understood that this was bigger than he was and entrusted Marie to carry out the plan after his passing.

That being said, Banhammer and his kingdom may have pledged themselves loyal to Fate, each to their own degree. Thus, Wanda may believe she is loyal to Fate but may also be loyal to the betterment of her side in a long roundabout way.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby Oberon » Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:24 pm

zilfallon wrote:It [multiple PWL] won't increase the chance [of the MK plan working]. Think about it, they summoned a perfect warlord so he could overpower anyone, ultimately win and stop all the wars. But what would happen if those several perfect warlords fought each other? Another cycle of endless war. But other than this, I agree with your point and find Smoker's theory about "material components" good.
Was that their intent? That one Side swallow up all the others and put an end to war by making a single Side with plenty of free-upkeep decrypted in order to get past the diminishing returns? I'm not so sure, and neither Janice nor Marie has been very forthcoming.

And is that even possible? GK had plenty of decrypted, and Parson said they had run up against the limit already, although he wasn't very descriptive about exactly what that meant...
Lamech wrote:
Oberon wrote:That argument loses all of its steam when you realize that they already sold a nuke. And that selling that nuke was an absolute requirement for their plans to proceed.

Now all that remains is discovering the reasons why selling a second (3rd, 4th, ... many) nuke would be bad for those plans. If one PWL has a chance to end war, don't 2, 3, 4, many PWL have an increased chance of accomplishing that same goal?
But they sold it to the people they wanted to use it. A side of their own chosing. They had casters in place to direct it. They did NOT sell it to a random side.
It may not have been random, but GK wasn't the sole selection that was considered. Nor was that selection viewed by Janis as being a completely sound one. Rather she felt that Marie picked Wanda due to some baggage she is carrying about Wanda.
Lamech wrote:And you are misremembering the prices [paid by Sizemore for his class on hippymancy]. It was 8 for the class and Janis said 50 per thinkamancer. In the end five got called, so we are looking at 250 or 30 times the price of a class from a grand abbie; nor do we know it was a short class
But in the end Janice said that Sizemore could skip the payment entirely, Sizemore paid her 20, and Janice paid the volunteer thinkamancers nothing. So the calculation becomes 20 to nothing, rather than 8 to 50. :roll: The differences between initial offering and initial asking, and actually paid, do make it rather difficult to determine the true worth of things here though...
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby GaryThunder » Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:38 pm

Money doesn't grow on trees on Earth, either. "Sides" here also exist with "negative upkeep".

Ok, so Earth economies can produce stuff, and thus bring their upkeep to positive. It would be shocking if this was not the case on Erfworld. You must have somewhere to get the Schmuckers from (mining for gems is a possibility that we already know of), for if the only way to get money is to steal someone else's, and you need to make some of that money disappear each turn by paying upkeep, then soon enough nobody has any money left.

So I don't see why stalemates would be impossible by that argument.


Mines, farms, etc, can contribute toward a side's upkeep but not completely pay for it. Farms seem like renewable resources...gems, less so, but presumably it's like oil in our world: yes, there is technically a limited amount in existence, but it's so large as to last for a massively long time. Even Faq had to do mercenary runs from time to time, and they were as close to a bubble kingdom as Erfworld has ever seen. From Parson's last Klog:

...it seems like one more piece of the puzzle toward having a side with zero (or positive) upkeep.


That does not seem to suggest that sides with non-negative upkeep are a regular feature in Erfworld, if it's a "puzzle" to even consider how such a concept could exist. If two-thirds of GK's army has zero upkeep and they're still at negative upkeep, it seems like a side without Decryption would be even less capable of overcoming that.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby Oberon » Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:06 pm

CNagy wrote:
Oberon wrote:I've yet to hear any rationale why multiple PWL would not be a good thing, other than the presumption that they must fight each other. And Parson's personality is not that of a person spoiling for a fight. Right now, he fights when forced to fight, and I'm not seeing any disadvantage to having multiple PWLs on Erf who fight only when forced to. Instead, I'm seeing notes on how to possibly perpetuate a Side without conflict. And I fail to see how having many people pondering this same potential is a bad thing. A Renaissance isn't brought about by a single person, it takes a group, a culture, many people all contributing to the same advancement of thought.

Parson is subject to the whims of Stanley.
Well, he is and he isn't. On paper, he totally is, and the slap confirmed that for anyone who thought it might be otherwise. But in both Books events have been arranged to ensure that Parson is in full charge of the GK forces without Stanley's interference. In Book 1 Stanley flew off with his dwagons and KISS knights (is that redundant? Yes, it is.) to rebuild at FAQ. And here in Book 2 we have Maggie and the handy powder of suggestion. This is pretty much necessary, as Stanley has been shown to be a complete clod when it comes to strategy and tactics, and with him looking over Parson's shoulder and second guessing every little order even Parson couldn't pull out a win even if the odds were completely in the GK favor... Unless the authors decide to show Stanley have some (more, he has had some) character development and decide to trust Parson to plan and to lead, then we will see Stanley conveniently taken out of the picture at any time that Parson needs to show his skills. It just can't work out any other way, and I'm not saying that this is a bad thing. It just is.
mp122984 wrote:
Oberon wrote:I'll entertain anyone's theory, as long as it makes some sense. Please elaborate, how exactly would a Side "go wipe out" the MK?
Probably by sending in their own casters and/or convincing the ones already there to put an end to the business. Starting a civil war, essentially. Assuming that one hasn't already started if the cat is ever let out of the bag.
Ok. But in order to do that, the casters would have to agree, and we've already seem Sizemore strongly argue against similar acts against the MK. That's not to say that they wouldn't have to go in the end, but it would make it rather easy for them to object, get ordered to go anyway, and then turn to being free agents as soon as they were safely through the portal and immune to attack. Also, the greatest number of casters we've seen on a side is 5, the GK count at the start of TBfGK. 5 casters doesn't seem like much of an invading army, to me. As to convincing the MK casters to "put an end to the business", if the MK sells goods and services to the Sides of Erf, then they must have some need for the shmuckers they receive in exchange for those goods and services. And this need would be directly opposed to any sort of plan to have the MK casters "put an end to the business", assuming that you are speaking of the business of selling goods and services for shmuckers. So what's in it for anyone in the MK, to war against anyone else in the MK?
happyturtle wrote:War on the MK? Destroy the portals.
Which amounts to "go to war with all other Sides", since it seems that every Side has at least one portal. Not a winning strategy.
happyturtle wrote:Forbid your casters from going there.
Which means no training for your casters and no items or services for your Side. Which puts you at an immediate disadvantage to any Side not willing to also limit itself.
happyturtle wrote:Attack any barbarian caster that you see.
The only barbarian casters we have seen appear to live in the MK. So how are you going to see them, much less attack them? If they come out, they do so as the hirelings of Sides who want their goods or services, and so will enjoy the protection of that Side while they are providing those goods or services. Which brings you back to being at war with all Sides again. I'm not seeing much opportunity to attack barbarian casters.
happyturtle wrote:Find ways to discourage other sides from dealing with the MK - bribery or threats. Force MK to take sides, and then they aren't neutral and inviolable anymore. Yeah, war on MK could happen. Might even be part of what has to happen to break Erf enough to end war.
This last might work. You'd need to find some incentive which is convincing enough. Either /threats and military dominance, which is reduced if the Side you're trying to dominate can buy items and hire casters and you can't, or some other incentive such as bribes/tribute. But you'll be like the nation trying to impose sanctions against the other nation that has a lot of oil to sell. It's a real difficult thing to do alone, and even when you're the strongest nation in the world it often doesn't go your way.
GaryThunder wrote:*It is theoretically possible for two warlords to both be equally perfect through different means. Imagine two swords created by the best swordsmith in all creation, which he apprises as being exactly alike in quality and craftsmanship, but one's a claymore and one's a katana. But then that just raises a storm of questions, chief among them being "What defines a 'perfect' warlord anyway?" Hair-splitting like that doesn't make for particularly good storytelling.
Agreed. To add more fuel to the fire, Charlie is calling Parson the "more than perfect warlord." And if you can't have two perfect warlords at the same time, you also can't have any warlord who is "more" than perfect. Perfect has a meaning, after all. :lol:
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby fjolnir » Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:45 pm

GaryThunder wrote:
...it seems like one more piece of the puzzle toward having a side with zero (or positive) upkeep.


That does not seem to suggest that sides with non-negative upkeep are a regular feature in Erfworld, if it's a "puzzle" to even consider how such a concept could exist. If two-thirds of GK's army has zero upkeep and they're still at negative upkeep, it seems like a side without Decryption would be even less capable of overcoming that.

The thing we can see but most of the sides don't (and it appears parson is ignorant of it as well) is that it is possible that GK is a positive upkeep side, what with the ability find, tame and harvest dwagons, along with 0-upkeep decrypted means that they can EASILY go into surplus production if they wanted to.(unless you have to pay upkeep for tamed dwagons that croak on the same turn)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby Decorus » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:27 pm

What Parson was saying is its impossible for a side in Erfworld to support itself without fighting.
Charlie might be able to with his single city and telecom industry.
The original Faq supported itself by selling its army as mercenary forces.
GK has massive resources in its gems, but still runs in a negative upkeep just like any other kingdom.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby GaryThunder » Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:51 pm

The thing we can see but most of the sides don't (and it appears parson is ignorant of it as well) is that it is possible that GK is a positive upkeep side, what with the ability find, tame and harvest dwagons, along with 0-upkeep decrypted means that they can EASILY go into surplus production if they wanted to.(unless you have to pay upkeep for tamed dwagons that croak on the same turn)


I seriously doubt Parson is somehow unaware of GK's upkeep. He almost certainly goes over the actual numbers fairly regularly, especially given his job as city manager. Being Wanda's premier strategist on the side would also require Parson to keep an eye on the side's finances, to make decisions concerning force deployment, asset capture, and the buying (and selling?) of items from other sides and/or the Magic Kingdom. He does know enough about GK's finances to inform Charlie when they're hitting the "diminishing Schmuckers point," after all.

And speaking of Charlie, and revisiting a point from earlier in the thread, I thought of another reason why Charlie wants Parson out of the picture so badly. He's humiliated. Parson has not just outguessed him but consistently turned his best schemes back on him, even profiting at his expense (the bit where he examined Charlie's smart decision to avoid letting him out of the Mathamancy deal and informed Charlie that he had gained far more than Charlie had in that conversation?). Charlie is bitter and furious about being beaten like that, not to mention the horrendous security breach that the Decrypted Archons represent. His primary motive in eliminating Parson may be less fear of his power and more seeking revenge for outsmarting him.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby Oberon » Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:56 pm

Smoker wrote:What it comes down to, is Parson's purpose in erfworld. If he is supposed to conquer the whole world, then yep. One Warlord is the way to go. The One Side World can only happen if there's only one PWL, and he creams all the other sides.
Agreed. I am only putting forth the theory that multiple PWL would be helpful if the goal of the MK plot is to have one side conquer all. And that intent is not clear at this time.
Smoker wrote:If Parson's goal is to break some rules, re-arrange the social structure, teach the people of Erfworld something about free-will, or whatever, then this can be done simultaneously in different parts of the map. In fact, because nobody really knows the extent of Erfworld, it's probably an awesome idea to pepper a couple of PWL's around the map, to reduce the time it takes for one new culture to spread to the ends of the world.
Again, agreed. You have neatly summarized both sides of the discussion, as far as I see them. All that remains now is some more glimpses into the intent of the MK conspirators...
Smoker wrote:Also: Attacking the MK is an excellent way to commit suicide. If you can imagine all those casters geared up for war, in dozens of trimancer links, protected by all kinds of foolamancy and backed up by dolls, golems and uncroaked.. plus all the abilities/units we dont know about.. No sane side would take that on, and any insane side that did would lose.
And yet again, agreed. I found the very concept to be rather laughable, but I was interested to see if the author of that idea had some thoughts that I had not yet considered.
oslecamo2 wrote:Because that's a recipe for disaster, since the current plan it's based in the fact that no one in Erfworld is good enough to beat Hamster in tactics.
But, is it?
oslecamo2 wrote:Because Stanley is very easy to manipulate![/b] He can be annoying yes, but say the right words and you have him dancing at the tune of your music. Or sugestion spell if you're in an hurry. Plus both Wanda and Maggie are more than willing to give Hamster a hand in being the real guy in charge of GK.
That works until the time comes that Stanley decides that all his casters and CWL have either betrayed him, or have just failed him. Such as the next time a battle happens to go badly and Stanley gets all depressed even while his CWL is planning for his next counter move. Then Stanley orders all units to return to GK and sets off with his dwagons and KISS units to try to reclaim the FAQ capitol site. And orders all his casters and his CWL out of his sight.
This happened once, there is no reason to assume that Stanley is so easy to manipulate that it can't happen again.
oslecamo2 wrote:
Oberon wrote:And we have never seen Parson spoiling for a fight, or relishing in the anticipation of facing a "worthy" opponent.

You have mischaracterized Parson completely.
The comic starts with Hamster claiming how he wants to be summoned. He orders his warlords to scream LEEEERRRROOOOYYY JJJEENNNKKKIIINNNSSS! He plans tactical scenarios all the time. What else do you need? For Hamster to cut himself and bath in his own blood while releasing earth-shaking warcries
I still feel that you mischaracterize Parson. The events you cite were prior to the point where he had learned that his decisions do indeed cost lives, win or lose. And even so he was not exulting at the coming bloodshed, just being a little indulgent during a battle which was already committed to. I maintain, we have never seen Parson spoiling for a fight, or relishing in the anticipation of a battle. He has a high degree of interest in the strategy components of every battle, but we've never seen him rejoice at croaked enemy units, or gloat about the casualties he has caused. Parson has been very carefully presented as a dorky gamer guy who may be enthusiastic for more cerebral challenges in a gaming arena, but who even when it is necessary for his own survival regrets the casualties he has caused.
fjolnir wrote:
GaryThunder wrote:
...it seems like one more piece of the puzzle toward having a side with zero (or positive) upkeep.

That does not seem to suggest that sides with non-negative upkeep are a regular feature in Erfworld, if it's a "puzzle" to even consider how such a concept could exist. If two-thirds of GK's army has zero upkeep and they're still at negative upkeep, it seems like a side without Decryption would be even less capable of overcoming that.

The thing we can see but most of the sides don't (and it appears parson is ignorant of it as well) is that it is possible that GK is a positive upkeep side, what with the ability find, tame and harvest dwagons, along with 0-upkeep decrypted means that they can EASILY go into surplus production if they wanted to.(unless you have to pay upkeep for tamed dwagons that croak on the same turn)
I don't think that GK is an upkeep positive Side, despite all of it's decrypted which are upkeep free. And I don't understand how any rate of taming dwagons, which should have a high upkeep similar to that of archons, is of any advantage to GK in the upkeep balance. Parson said:
LordHamster wrote:I mean yeah we're up against the diminishing Shmuckers point, so it's a good time to pause and do diplomacy.
What exactly he meant by "diminishing shmuckers point" is difficult to define, but it seems to be pointing at a GK difficulty in continuing to build up its own forces, leading to the increased desirability of growth via diplomacy.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby mp122984 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:44 am

Oberon wrote:Ok. But in order to do that, the casters would have to agree, and we've already seem Sizemore strongly argue against similar acts against the MK. That's not to say that they wouldn't have to go in the end, but it would make it rather easy for them to object, get ordered to go anyway, and then turn to being free agents as soon as they were safely through the portal and immune to attack. Also, the greatest number of casters we've seen on a side is 5, the GK count at the start of TBfGK. 5 casters doesn't seem like much of an invading army, to me. As to convincing the MK casters to "put an end to the business", if the MK sells goods and services to the Sides of Erf, then they must have some need for the shmuckers they receive in exchange for those goods and services. And this need would be directly opposed to any sort of plan to have the MK casters "put an end to the business", assuming that you are speaking of the business of selling goods and services for shmuckers. So what's in it for anyone in the MK, to war against anyone else in the MK?


We've already seen a bit of that. He's said to be one of the most popular casters pre-decrypted. The only connection that he has to Wanda or the SPW spell is that he's on the same side as the two. And he's still been subjected to shunning and outright violence because he's the nearest target for them to vent on. The neutrality of the Magic Kingdom is starting to unravel - no one likes the decryption, and some casters are proving themselves willing to deny GK business because of it.

This isn't purely about business anymore. Principles are starting to enter into it. The question becomes what happens when the MK starts to fear either a fifth column or the backlash the SPW spell may cause if it's ever trace to them. Perhaps, it's not that a side has 5 casters to fight for it. Rather it's that a side has 5 casters to represent it to try to convince those still in the MK to join their side, or at least to keep others from fighting against their side.

Oberon wrote:
Smoker wrote:Also: Attacking the MK is an excellent way to commit suicide. If you can imagine all those casters geared up for war, in dozens of trimancer links, protected by all kinds of foolamancy and backed up by dolls, golems and uncroaked.. plus all the abilities/units we dont know about.. No sane side would take that on, and any insane side that did would lose.
And yet again, agreed. I found the very concept to be rather laughable, but I was interested to see if the author of that idea had some thoughts that I had not yet considered.


If there's been anything that's actually portrayed the MK like this, I'd like to see it please. I myself don't remember seeing trimancer links in the MK, or any unit in the MK that isn't a caster - dolls, golems, and uncroaked can't enter the MK, so maybe they can't even be created in the MK? Indeed, the point of the MK is that the casters aren't geared up to go to war. And as far as we know if a side does fear an attack by the MK, there's an easy solution - seal up the portal.

We'll probably see more of that happening once this battle has ended. As GaryThunder pointed out, whether the only way out of the MK is through the portals becomes a key point. Should all sides decide either independently or as a group to seal the portals, the mere threat would put the MK in a serious bind, give the sides much more leverage, and raises thorny issues about sides hoping to cheat in order to get more casters on their side. You may be right that MK as a neutral zone may be extremely difficult to conquer militarily. Whether or not a side can try to make it unviable for casters to live there might be a different question.

Thanks for your objections and points.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 037

Postby fjolnir » Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:54 am

I said it is likely possible to reach upkeep positive or better by taming dwagons to harvest on the same turn you get them not that GK was currently using this method, just that unless there is some sort of punitive upkeep penalty involved with taming that we haven't heard about it should be possible to do this: inspect everything to maximize production bonuses, scout for feral dwagons in an optimal route around GK, go out and tame every dwagon that is found and send them back to the city, where they are harvested for food for the side.
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