Book 2 – Page 50

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Oberon » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:56 am

GaryThunder wrote:Bear in mind also that Tramennis is mostly used to dealing with other Royal sides.
I'm completely fine with giving Tram a pass for approaching the negotiations "in character" or as being "typical for royal Sides." I'm just not ok with truing up that approach with the positioning of Tram as being the Erfworld exception when it comes to the matter of diplomacy.

This is my issue here, and let it be clear for any who have missed it before: Tram is acting really lame, in what is supposed to be his field of expertise. Were Tram supposed to be some kind of combat master, and be failing equally, I'd be just as disappointed. Were Tram supposed to be some kind of pacifist master, and the situation spiraled into combat, I'd be just as disappointed. Tram is supposed to be a smart diplomat... We have both seen that from the supporting cast, and have seen that from his intended approach to the GK forces in the Jetstone airspace. Tram intended to forge an alliance with GK! This is supposed to be his area of expertise, his differentiator when it comes to the rest of the Erfworld characters. And yet what have we been handed? The masterful opening of negotiations with "Your clothes suck and your leader is a lame ass." This... This is my disappointment here, no matter how many people claim that it has something to do with exploits or anything else. Tram has utterly failed to be the character he was built up to be, and I think that this sucks, as a story element. Parson has been built up as being the game breaker, it would be nice to see him faced with a worthy opponent. Tram had that potential after his build up, but he has been handed the idiot ball in practice so that the plot can proceed without his mastery of diplomacy being a true counter to Parson. And that is a damn shame.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
Oberon
 
Posts: 1005
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Oberon » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:11 am

Ditto wrote:Oberon, there is no urgency to the pace of Tram's negotiation. It's a fact. Kozbot illustrated perfectly the point I made in a previous post ('what if Tram went to lunch...') with his Civ4 example. Saying you'd be satisfied if Tram *had* started out with 'Hey Ossomer, I surrender' is irrelevant because of the timing Parson laid out for his cwapping plan. I see what you're saying about not giving Parson the alternative having a plot-necessary element to it, so as not to present a choice which we'd all fault him for not taking... but again, in the immediate moment it would not have mattered in Parson's decision making process if Tram had come out with that option at this moment.
My position is rather far from asking for Tram to open with 'Hey Ossomer, I surrender', as I hope is clear to anyone who actually reads my posts...
President_Allosaurus wrote:
Oberon wrote:I'm not sure I see your point. It is one of the greatest strengths of a smart diplomat to be able to understand how the enemy perceives situations, so that he can best maneuver his own reactions to take advantage and form the best resulting bargain for his own side.
But isn't Parson seeing things so vastly different from other Erfworldians an actual plot point in this story?
It is, but that should not keep characters who are positioned as having skills in certain areas from actually using those skills. Parson is the protagonist and must be difficult to defeat, but Erfworld characters who are built up as having particular skills should be shown to use those skills to oppose Parson. That is what a story is supposed to do.
fractal wrote:Masterful diplomacy is useless when your opponent isn't interested in talking. Against all reason, Parson somehow had a better option than negotiation.
Are you really calling opening negotiations that you really need to be successful with a bunch of insults as being "masterful diplomacy"? Because failure and masterful are actually rather different terms.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
Oberon
 
Posts: 1005
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby oslecamo2 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:36 am

Oberon wrote: Tram has utterly failed to be the character he was built up to be, and I think that this sucks, as a story element. Parson has been built up as being the game breaker, it would be nice to see him faced with a worthy opponent. Tram had that potential after his build up, but he has been handed the idiot ball in practice so that the plot can proceed without his mastery of diplomacy being a true counter to Parson. And that is a damn shame.


Hmm, I don't really get this point.

How is a good diplomat suposed to be the counter to LORD HAMSTER, DESTROYER OF RULES! If anything, diplomacy is what will make them lose this battle, like Hamster himself pointed out.

Hamster: Sooo, why didn't they still finish us?
Jack: They're gonna parley.
Hamster: They're crazy then. That buys me enough time find a new way to cheat the game!


Hamster calls Jetstone crazy for not finishing them when given the chance. That's the tactical genius himself speaking. Talking will do no good for Jetstone in this situation. Hamster never tought for a moment of begging for mercy or trying to talk his way out of this situation (besides as a momentary distraction before backtabbing them).

Hamster is intended on winning Erfworld or go down fighting, as he himself stated in Book 1. He already made it clear for calling Ansom for discussing surrender terms just to betray him in a desesperate gambit. It doesn't matter what Trems would've said, Hamster would be too busy calculatig combat odds and preparing his next attack to care. Thus Jetstone's biggest mistake was precisely puting a master diplomat in charge. Someone like Duke Atrium would've just simply gone "Kill them all, then stab the witch's body again just to be sure", making it Jetstone's victory.
oslecamo2
 
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:37 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:13 am

oslecamo2 wrote:Hmm, I don't really get this point.

How is a good diplomat suposed to be the counter to LORD HAMSTER, DESTROYER OF RULES! If anything, diplomacy is what will make them lose this battle, like Hamster himself pointed out.

Hamster: Sooo, why didn't they still finish us?
Jack: They're gonna parley.
Hamster: They're crazy then. That buys me enough time find a new way to cheat the game!


And yet, it's the Trem-bashers that are accused of requiring characters to be omniscient.

Look, you may say that Trem would know of Parson's perfidious reputation. In which case yeah, maybe no parley at all would have been optimal; but wait, apparently Trem needs that parley to happen. So demonstrating some skill in actually getting the other side talking would have been very timely.

As to how can Diplomacy counter the perfect warlord, Headology (for those of you who know Discworld). Weren't people here stoked that Trem might lock wits with Parson? That, you know, he might actually, by using said wit, gain a reprieve for JS and eventually maybe throw Parson off his balance?

If you start with the premise that Lord Hamster must be uncounterable by the skills of others, well. There was a reason why people started clamoring that Superman was too powerful.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
User avatar
BLANDCorporatio
Toolbox Member & Kickstarter Backer
Toolbox Member & Kickstarter Backer
 
Posts: 3446
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:24 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Fishman » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:35 am

I don't see how Tramennis is incompetent. He knows Parson is perfidious: He took steps to guard against this, by insisting that foolamancy be dispelled, and that the opposing force must assemble over the garrison, away from the tower, and within shooting range of all their archers and casters. This would, ordinarily, be an extremely disadvantageous position that protects him from a perfidious attack. All these are sensible precautions given his desire to talk, which we cannot expect otherwise from. And indeed, since he's not falling to a horrible death at the moment, they seem to have worked.

People have said he is a poor diplomat, because he insulted Ossomer. But, Ossomar is/was his brother: A certain level of insultation is expected. He is speaking to his brother, not directly to Gobwin Knob, and his tactics work: Ossomer looks distinctly conflicted and uncomfortable: This is quite a feat, considering that the Uncroaked are supposed to be fanatically devoted. He is clearly pushing all of the right buttons.

He believes the crapstorm is a tantrum at first: This is a reasonable belief, as he knows GK can't effectively hurt them from their current position. When things start getting weird, he is calm, decisive, and does not panic or scream about how this is impossible. When confronted with this downright weird behavior, he makes the correct deduction that something is afoot and reacts decisively with a reasonable response.

None of these things are signs that he is incompetent, merely that he is confronted with something new and unprecedented, yet he reacts calmly and decisively. He may be outmatched, but he isn't incompetent.
Fishman
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:23 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby wrecan » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:17 am

For my part, understanding Erf warlord psychology is framed mostly by this strip. In it, Parson rummages through the Gobwin Knob library. Libraries are created full-form in each city. This is where Parson went to learn the "rules" of Erfworld, but the books contain histories, crests, and scores. Very little on the mechanics.

This indicates to me that Erfworld actively discourages warlords from thinking outside the box. Warlords and nobles don't get lessons in physics. They get history lessons. They conceive strategies base don what has happened before, not based on what people have never done. They're not even taught to anticipate what hasn't been done, which is why they are always surprised when someone does something new.

Cleverness for an Erfer is not doing something new, but doing something old in an unexpected way. Moreover, Erfers don't extrapolate. Everybody is always surprised by novelties. nobody expected the volcano exploit. But once it happened, people just put it into the list of things GK can do. They can explode volcanoes. But to an Erfer that does not mean that they can also conquer cities off-turn.

Vanna used Kingworld to end a turn. That was surprising. But nobody now assumes that Parson can prematurely end a turn. All people did was throw "prematurely end a turn" into the tool box of stuff that can be done with Vanna (linked with Charlie's Arkendish, for those who figured out his involvement). If it were known GK had a turnamancer, they'd worry. But they don't so nobody is concerned.

Even the cleverest of Erfers don't think outside the box. Jack practiced with Parson for dozens of turns. The only plan he could devise was a variation on a stunt that Parson developed in one of their simulations. He didn't invent anything new. He was simply the only one who saw the novelty that Parson had invented.

It seems pretty clear to me that Erfworlders are uniformly uncreative, and that is an intentional design function of Erfworld. The Titans designed the world to discourage people from testing the rules and as a result, Parson has a distinct advantage. So far, the only people who have shown any propensity to test limits are Parson, Charlie, Stanley(!) and Marie. Parson isn't from here. I suspect Charlie has a unique origin too -- or his creativity is being caused by the Titans through the Arkendish. Stanley and Marie each had one spark of creativity. Stanley somehow devised the eyebooks through a trimancer link. Even Wanda remarked that it was the shrewdest thing he's ever done. And Marie came up with the Summon Perfect Warlord spell. I cannot imagine that Stanley came up with the eyebooks on his own. I am guessing he was influenced through the Arkenhammer by the Titans. And Marie gets all her info from Predictamancy, which appears to be a direct phone line to Fate (and Fate seems to be just another word for the Titans' will).

So, no, I don't see Tramennis holding any idiot ball... except that all Erfworlders ware saddled with the exact same idiot ball -- the complete inability to imagine things nobody has done before.

Parson doesn't "cheat". He invents, he tests, he theorizes. He is Erfworld's only actual scientist.

So I don't see Tramennis as being an idiot, no more than anybody else. He doesn't foresee Parson's exploits because he cannot even conceive of exploits, even after being told of them. No Erfworlder can. He may appear to be an idiot from our perspective, because we don't suffer Erfworlder limitations. He's doing the best he can, but he is no match for Parson, not because Tramennis is an idiot, but because Tramennis, like all Erfworlders, has a horrible blind spot and they don't even know it.
wrecan
 
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 6:41 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Oberon » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:12 pm

Fishman wrote:I don't see how Tramennis is incompetent. He knows Parson is perfidious: He took steps to guard against this, by insisting that foolamancy be dispelled, and that the opposing force must assemble over the garrison, away from the tower, and within shooting range of all their archers and casters. This would, ordinarily, be an extremely disadvantageous position that protects him from a perfidious attack. All these are sensible precautions given his desire to talk, which we cannot expect otherwise from. And indeed, since he's not falling to a horrible death at the moment, they seem to have worked.
And yet, while managing to communicate positional demands, Tram still managed to fail to communicate his intent to hold sincere alliance discussions, which he felt were necessary to the long term survival of his Side. And why is that?
Fishman wrote:People have said he is a poor diplomat, because he insulted Ossomer. But, Ossomar is/was his brother: A certain level of insultation is expected.
I wont claim that this is out of character. I only maintain that a skilled diplomat is able to rise above the expected behavior and that this is why skilled diplomats actually have value. The value Tram was built up to have. The value he absolutely failed to deliver.
Fishman wrote:He is speaking to his brother, not directly to Gobwin Knob, and his tactics work: Ossomer looks distinctly conflicted and uncomfortable: This is quite a feat, considering that the Uncroaked are supposed to be fanatically devoted. He is clearly pushing all of the right buttons.
Sure his tactics work, if you consider obtaining all of your secondary objectives to be valuable at the cost of your primary objective. And what does making Ossomer "conflicted and uncomfortable" actually win for Jetstone? Is Ossomer "conflicted and uncomfortable" because he knows that Jetstone will soon fall? What a win for Tram that was!
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
Oberon
 
Posts: 1005
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Smoker » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:52 pm

There is yet hope.

Tram's planning and research into this parley was sound, it was just his execution that was a fail.

If Tram can stop underestimating his opponent and come up with something brilliant, he may yet be the foil that he is more or less destined to be.

I'm hoping for a scene where Tram stoops to Parson's level (..2, lol) and uses an exploit of his own. He did, after all, very quickly adopt the mount-relay. I'd love to see the GK forces come running up the staircase of the tower, only to find it empty. Hovering just a few feet from the balcony are Slately, Tram and the Casters, all on Unipegataurback. The Archons and Ossomer all dusted, and the archery units disbanded.

"Enjoy being trapped in your new zone?" He asks, before giving his father the nod.

Slately then gives the order to raze the city, collapsing the tower with the GK forces within.

... or something like that.


PS. If there's one thing I've learned from bashing heads with certain people in this thread, it's that I've been spelling Tramennis with an E all this time. :?
No, no. It hit him in the brain because it killed him. - Dante
User avatar
Smoker
 
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby atalex » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:02 pm

Every time I respond to this thread, I have to remind myself that the one rule here is "don't be a dick," because Good Lord does this relentlessly tedious debate moves me to anger.

Oberon, just tell me one thing: If you were Tram, what would you have said at the start of parley, given (1) that Ossomer's sole instructions were "stall for time," (2) Parson stated from the start that initiation of parley was the signal for the exploit to begin, (3) there is no indication that Parson was paying any attention at all to the conversation during parley, since he was watching the entire field as the exploit as going into effect, and (4) the first S-bomb actually fell within 30 seconds of parley starting.

In that context, what magic words should Tram have used that would have persuaded Parson to abandon his strategy in favor of an actual negotiation of any sort? And I want you to actually give me actual words he should have used, not just another refrain of "well, he shouldn't have used any insults cuz that's just mean!" as you fling yourself onto the fainting couch and clutch your pearls in scandalized offense.
atalex
 
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:08 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Ditto » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:06 pm

Oberon wrote:
Ditto wrote:
Oberon, there is no urgency to the pace of Tram's negotiation. It's a fact. Kozbot illustrated perfectly the point I made in a previous post ('what if Tram went to lunch...') with his Civ4 example. Saying you'd be satisfied if Tram *had* started out with 'Hey Ossomer, I surrender' is irrelevant because of the timing Parson laid out for his cwapping plan. I see what you're saying about not giving Parson the alternative having a plot-necessary element to it, so as not to present a choice which we'd all fault him for not taking... but again, in the immediate moment it would not have mattered in Parson's decision making process if Tram had come out with that option at this moment.
My position is rather far from asking for Tram to open with 'Hey Ossomer, I surrender', as I hope is clear to anyone who actually reads my posts...

I know this, sure. But I'm just pointing out that even opening with the most advantageous situation GK could ever get from a parley, it wouldn't have made a difference. (as atalex just related above, as well.) I'm not sure why Tram opening with something a little lighter but more direct would make you feel better, since it cannot possibly have changed the outcome. I still believe if/once Tram got to talking with Parson, things might have gone down well. Just because *Parson* precluded that possibility with his cwap attack doesn't mean that *Tram* was incapable of selling it. He never had the opportunity and could not have obtained the opportunity in these circumstances, no matter how quickly had acted. Not that speed is relevant.

Smoker, that's actually a very clever plan. They'd have to make sure they have enough forces that can resist Wanda uncroaking all their casualties, (and hopefully downing the tower would that, giving the GK team a taste of their own city-crashing medicine) since whatever dwagons are left when Jetstone ends turn are just going to spank those unipegataurs out of the sky... but it's a start!
SteveMB wrote:The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
Sorry*.
*no I'm not
Ditto
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:32 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Smoker » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:31 pm

Clearly that was directed at Oberon, but its a really good question. So on the assumption that anyone can play, I'd put forward the suggestion that Tram should have made "a thinkagram to someone of authority" part of his opening demands to GK when he made them move the dwagons over the atrium.

I mean, there's nobody in the hex who has the authority to make the sort of agreement that Tram was shooting for anyway, so it makes a bit of sense.

The opening line isn't so critical once he's got Parson actually paying attention to him, and there is no doubt in my mind that Parson would have given him at least a few minutes to state his case - he's not the type to slam shut a possibility, and he really was not comfortable about taking the risk of Wanda falling. I'm confident that Tram would have had a chance at sorting something out.

Besides, if Parson had declined, that would be a whopping great clue that something was amiss, and a wonderful time to order everyone to attack the flyers with everything they had.
No, no. It hit him in the brain because it killed him. - Dante
User avatar
Smoker
 
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby the_tick_rules » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:36 pm

Does Jetstone have a thinkamancer anyway to talk to parson?
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
User avatar
the_tick_rules
 
Posts: 941
Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 11:36 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Smoker » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:41 pm

ditto wrote:Smoker, that's actually a very clever plan. They'd have to make sure they have enough forces that can resist Wanda uncroaking all their casualties, (and hopefully downing the tower would that, giving the GK team a taste of their own city-crashing medicine) since whatever dwagons are left when Jetstone ends turn are just going to spank those unipegataurs out of the sky... but it's a start!


Hey thanks :)

And remember the unipegataurs have move, and the Haggar column isn't very far away. I'm sure they could take shelter (any port in a storm). Also remember that Jillian had archon support on the way on, but we didn't hear anything about them on the way out, so with the money they gain from razing the capital and killing the GK archons, maybe they could employ Charlie again after all?

(also I think they'd need to hide enough units around the place so that the mechanics accepted JS still had "control" of the garrison)

the_tick_rules wrote:Does Jetstone have a thinkamancer anyway to talk to parson?

No, but they could have demanded an Archon provide one it.
No, no. It hit him in the brain because it killed him. - Dante
User avatar
Smoker
 
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Ditto » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:43 pm

They'd have to flag down an archon, which is how they relayed the terms of the parley originally. At which point, Ossomer would have said, 'Sure thing, bro...' and the archon would come down and say 'Please hold for Lord Hamster.... please hold.... please hold...' as long as was necessary for the S-bombing to start.

Getting a thinkagram started doesn't fix Tram's problem. Other solutions?

Smoker- I still think they'd be hard pressed to fight off a newly decrypted GK force, and would YOU go seek harbor with Haggar after they clearly planned to croak you in EXACTLY this circumstance, AND are under Charlie's thumb?
SteveMB wrote:The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
Sorry*.
*no I'm not
Ditto
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:32 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:49 pm

Ditto wrote:They'd have to flag down an archon, which is how they relayed the terms of the parley originally. At which point, Ossomer would have said, 'Sure thing, bro...' and the archon would come down and say 'Please hold for Lord Hamster.... please hold.... please hold...' as long as was necessary for the S-bombing to start.

Getting a thinkagram started doesn't fix Tram's problem. Other solutions?


Hah, so dismissive.

Look, what Smoker said is that it would have been smarter for Trem to call an Archon and, instead of going through the motions of what looks like a mock-parley, actually make some move to get talking to Parson- or, at least, have the Archon deliver some message for Parson that Trem thought would be interesting.

What was delivered was "we'll make fun of you know by pretending to extend a diplomatic opening", or at least this is how Trem should know JS's actions would be viewed.

THEN, assuming Trem did make an overture for dialog, and Parson refused, well. Ok, he tried. But there may well have been a chance to get that Thinkagram going- and this, mind you, way before any S-Bombing was due at all.

Smoker's suggestion in fact allows one to have your cake and eat it too, in that, depending on what Trem told that Archon, he might get some time to talk with Ossomer as well as Parson on the line at a time of his choosing.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
User avatar
BLANDCorporatio
Toolbox Member & Kickstarter Backer
Toolbox Member & Kickstarter Backer
 
Posts: 3446
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:24 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby wrecan » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:57 pm

Smoker wrote:No, but they could have demanded an Archon provide one it.

Isn't that what was going on when Tramennis told Ossomer "I would speak to" Lord Hamster?

Ossomer arrives for parley. The presumption is the person sent to parley is authorized to parley. Ossomer's parley went as follows:
1. Determine if Ossomer would like to turn. He doesn't.
2. Find out what authority he has. Ossomer learns he does not serve Stanley (whose side Tram is supposedly fighting) and does not know Parson (who is supposedly his chief warlord)
3. Immediately after that, Tramennis demands to speak with Parson. Immediately thereafter, the yellow begin crapping.

Another note is the idea that Tramennis should not act the smarmy person he normally does, but be direct or solicitous. I think we've seen time and time again that when people act out of character, Erfworlders immediately take it as a sign that they are being deceived or that there is mind-control occurring. Duncan's manipulation of Jillian worked on that principle. Tramennis' distrust of Charlie's intel was based in part on Charlie's atypical behavior. Charlie himself has remarked to Jillian that were he to give away his intel freely nobodyw ould believe it because he would be acting out of character.

Tramennis has been established to be a smarmy know-it-all who opens parleys with an exchange of insults and witticisms. Were he to act otherwise, with an opponent who knows his personality (like Ossomer), it would immediately appear suspicious. Had Ossomer engaged in the parley sincerely seeking to negotiate, Tramennis' behavior would have made Ossomer believe it was a trap, or that someone else was pulling the strings. For better or ill, Tramennis has to open his negotiations with an exchange of insults.

Having done that, however, he managed to get to the point pretty quickly. He wants a parley and he wants it with Parson. Had GK been sincere about parley, instead of dwagon crap, Ossomer would have summoned an archon to the parley. (Or, more likely, Wanda would have sent an archon immediately to set up a communication with Parson.) But Tramennis didn't know that Ossomer lacked any knowledge or authority to parley until three frames before the crapstorm hit.

As for Tram "calling down an archon", that doesn't seem to be how it works. You call for a parley and each side sends a representative. Gobwin Knob chose Ossomer (frame 6) and as soon as Tramennis discovered Ossomer was a shill, he demanded to speak with Parson and that's when the crapstorm happened.
wrecan
 
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 6:41 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:05 pm

wrecan wrote:As for Tram "calling down an archon", that doesn't seem to be how it works. You call for a parley and each side sends a representative. Gobwin Knob chose Ossomer (frame 6) and as soon as Tramennis discovered Ossomer was a shill, he demanded to speak with Parson and that's when the crapstorm happened.


At least one diplomatic encounter happened via Thinkamancy without live representatives. I refer to Parson pushing Ansom's Royalty buttons.

So conceivably, Trem could have requested of that original Archon to, instead of relay the usual mock-parley script, get some interesting message to Parson. I stress, something that trem would think might make Parson interested in talking.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
User avatar
BLANDCorporatio
Toolbox Member & Kickstarter Backer
Toolbox Member & Kickstarter Backer
 
Posts: 3446
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:24 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby the_tick_rules » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:07 pm

Are there Archons in the wanda's air assault team to parley with? I remember all the mounted dwagon riders but were there archons?
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
User avatar
the_tick_rules
 
Posts: 941
Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 11:36 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Smoker » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:13 pm

Ditto wrote:They'd have to flag down an archon, which is how they relayed the terms of the parley originally. At which point, Ossomer would have said, 'Sure thing, bro...' and the archon would come down and say 'Please hold for Lord Hamster.... please hold.... please hold...' as long as was necessary for the S-bombing to start.

Getting a thinkagram started doesn't fix Tram's problem. Other solutions?


No I mean demand one before Ossomer approaches, while they were relaying the terms for parley originally. Even from that same archon who was already right there.

And we'll never know if Parson would have answered, but a) I believe he would, and b) if he didnt then Tram has no reason to hold back - as soon as the first dookie was dropped, he would have realised there's nothing for it but to signal the attack to begin, and not just on the yellows.

Anyway, I'm not arguing with Atalex, I just thought it was an interesting question.

Ditto wrote:Smoker- I still think they'd be hard pressed to fight off a newly decrypted GK force, and would YOU go seek harbor with Haggar after they clearly planned to croak you in EXACTLY this circumstance, AND are under Charlie's thumb?


I would go to them because they are under Charlie's thumb. If they were not, then I'd rather trust my luck hiding under a rock somewhere. I could even pay Charlie to.. encourage.. Haggar to stick to their alliance. Plus, there's a lot to be said for a common enemy. When Haggar see GK rising from the ashes (assuming Wanda survived the razing of the tower) they'll probably be very glad for the Casters to back them up.

But anyway, it was just a crazy idea I came up with on the spot, I didn't suppose to have a perfect plan - I just want to see Tram do something out of the box so he can regain some street cred.
No, no. It hit him in the brain because it killed him. - Dante
User avatar
Smoker
 
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby effataigus » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:21 pm

I'm sure this has been stated before, but many people are acting as though Tram had only one objective going into this parley. The other stated objective was learning what he can from Ossomer (specifically whether Ossomer can be turned before Tram nukes his brother if I recall correctly).

Was he doing this? Yes. Were his efforts successful? Hard to say with decryption being what it is, but Ossomer's reactions are very telling. If it is possible for him to be convinced to turn, then Ossomer probably would have/will.

If you accept these conclusions, then the only blame you can lay at Tram's feet was not realizing the urgency of getting on the phone with Parson. I don't fault him for this for reasons I've already posted, but some do. I think that's fine.

Hahah, I love Smoker's plan. If they managed to clear the airspace of archons and get all of the way out of town (next hex, not just in the sky, if I understand the rules correctly) then it might even work!
Last edited by effataigus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am, edited 239044 times in total.
User avatar
effataigus
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 876
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:49 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests