Book 2 – Page 50

[kagato23]

And even if she landed with almost no damage, while I she probably doesn't go down too easily (we've seen her fight) I doubt on her own she can take down a warlord that I bet has a few levels, even with damage, and if she doesn't fight him and tries to uncroak everybody instead, he's probably got enough time to close and engage her before other troops can realize what's going on and screen/defend her.

She'd sweep the floor with Antium. Before this, without the pliers, she had no problem going after Ansom. Ansom had the bonus from the pliers but even then she unmounted him and took the pliers from him.

That was with an entire stack of uncroaked jonesing on her bonus when he was by himself. And in frame, he asks "what have you done to it?" which I'm guessing means that by being a naturally attuned potential wielder of that tool, she might have been able to nullify it's bonus when clashing with it. Even without that, one-on-one I'm betting that fight would have gone much differently.

[ftl]

"If someone is sick, take them directly to the hospital."

If someone is sick, you really don't take them directly to the hospital unless it's an emergency.

In this case, the fact that the dwagons had happily sat in airspace for hours doing nothing was a pretty strong indication for Tramennis that he had all the time in the world to do all the probing and poking he wanted.

(In fact, we know from our omniscient perspective that he DID have all the time in the world to think and plan; but he had NO time at all to negotiate, as Parson initiated the plan at the same time that the 'parley' started.)

"when/if Parson ignores your call? What then?"
1) Kill a dwagon and try again, and keep killing dwagons until he answers.
2) Pay GK a small tribute - I bet a thousand Shmuckers showing up in the treasury would at least get Parson curious.
3) Try to talk to someone else of authority. Wanda even. Once you've explained to her that JS wishes to discuss GKs offer of alliance, I fail to believe she will not relay that back to Parson.
4) Send cubbins through the magic kingdom to Gobwin Knob, holding an olive branch.
5) Almost anything else that involves getting Parson's attention.

Tramennis had no time to do any of those. The attack started as soon as the parley did.

Tramennis did, in fact, demand to speak to Parson, via the person that Parson sent to talk to him. You're saying that he should have known that he should IGNORE THE PERSON GK SENT TO NEGOTIATE ENTIRELY - not just ask or demand to be connected to Parson, but go around the usual chain of command to do so? Hire Charlie to do so?

Just imagine what you're saying in Earth politics. "I, a diplomat for my country, have something important to communicate to another country... so I'm going to skip talking to the diplomatic contact at their embassy in my capitol, who was specifically sent to talk to me about this, and give a phone call directly to Obama!" Right.

And if it doesn't work, at least he gets points for trying, instead of allowing himself to be distracted by Ossomer.

How is it that he would get points for trying all those other things (which we, with our omniscient reader POV, know wouldn't work, since Parson set the plan in motion as soon as the parley started) but doesn't get points for trying the most obvious thing which would in 99% of situations be more likely to work than any of them (talk to the person who the enemy side specifically sent to talk to you) ?

[Smoker]

A unit whose turn has ended cannot attack unless attacked. And even so, it is limited to attacking only within the same hex. So if a hobgobwin marched into Spacerock at the beginning of the turn, a JS piker could attack it (reflexively). If a hobgobwin ended turn standing around in Spacerock, I am not convinced it could have then attacked a piker that wandered across its path.

I think it would have no choice BUT to attack. If the piker didn't have leadership, same applied to it.

Consider: During the dwagon donut gambit, Jillian found a led stack of dwagons whose turn had ended. The idea here is those dwagons cannot attack until attacked back. Parson specifically told them not to attack, unless attacked. An archon actually pokes the warlord.

Exactly - the only reason they did not attack is because Parson told the units with leadership not to let their stacks attack. They had a good reason for this - they wanted mind-controlled-Jillian to come up with a reason to leave the dwagons alone.

If that stack of dwagons had not been led, they could not have attacked until attacked. There is a rule that says you cannot attack unless attacked off-turn, yes? It makes no sense to think that LEADING a stack would give you LESS capability to battle, as it would if ONLY led stacks face the 'cannot attack unless attacked' restriction.

If that stack of dwagons had not been sans leadership, then they would have immediately attacked. Please link me to this rule, because it contradicts whats happening here. Unled spidews are encountered by Jetstone forces on Jetstone's turn. They attack, even though they are completely outgunned. Note the Jetstone forces wait calmly in formation. The whole point of leadership is that you have the option of not attacking.

Its a good job some folks around here dont write rule books

[teratorn]

That was with an entire stack of uncroaked jonesing on her bonus when he was by himself. And in frame, he asks "what have you done to it?" which I'm guessing means that by being a naturally attuned potential wielder of that tool, she might have been able to nullify it's bonus when clashing with it. Even without that, one-on-one I'm betting that fight would have gone much differently.

She easily held Ossomer's sword when he was going to kill Ansom. She has a huge bonus from the arkentool, I doubt any unit not wielding another arkentool can take her down in melee.

[kagato23]

That was with an entire stack of uncroaked jonesing on her bonus when he was by himself. And in frame, he asks "what have you done to it?" which I'm guessing means that by being a naturally attuned potential wielder of that tool, she might have been able to nullify it's bonus when clashing with it. Even without that, one-on-one I'm betting that fight would have gone much differently.

She easily held Ossomer's sword when he was going to kill Ansom. She has a huge bonus from the arkentool, I doubt any unit not wielding another arkentool can take her down in melee.

That was a flanking action. I'm not sure if that has any applications on erf, but even going on our standards, she did that when he was completely distracted with another target, and during his windup. And here again, it was one of her minions who actually traded the blows, she really just helped out. I do agree that she'd take out basic infantry easily enough, but one-on-one with a warlord like Adam (who's probably no slouch in levels, considering he appeared to be the guy under Trem out in the field, and has authority over quite a few other units, suggesting he's been in a few fights and won them), I don't think she'd do so well.

[SomeUnregisteredPunk]

lol... Ossamer doesn't know WTF is going on. That bewildered expression is perfect.

[Smoker]

"If someone is sick, take them directly to the hospital."

If someone is sick, you really don't take them directly to the hospital unless it's an emergency.

In this case, the fact that the dwagons had happily sat in airspace for hours doing nothing was a pretty strong indication for Tramennis that he had all the time in the world to do all the probing and poking he wanted.

You're taking a remark I made at Kyrt's question, and applying it to Tramennis' actions. Read it again, 'time' had nothing to do with why Kyrt's question was.. unusual.

"when/if Parson ignores your call? What then?"
1) Kill a dwagon and try again, and keep killing dwagons until he answers.
2) Pay GK a small tribute - I bet a thousand Shmuckers showing up in the treasury would at least get Parson curious.
3) Try to talk to someone else of authority. Wanda even. Once you've explained to her that JS wishes to discuss GKs offer of alliance, I fail to believe she will not relay that back to Parson.
4) Send cubbins through the magic kingdom to Gobwin Knob, holding an olive branch.
5) Almost anything else that involves getting Parson's attention.

Tramennis had no time to do any of those. The attack started as soon as the parley did.

Yes, you and I know that there was a time limit, but thats not the point. The point is that Kyrt's asked what could possibly be done if the thinkagram wasn't answered, presumably because the absense of any viable plan b's made the thinkagram itself unviable. These options might not be brilliant, but they are (as far as Tram) knows, still viable, and therefore the idea of thinkagram shouldn't be dismissed out-of-hand.

Tramennis did, in fact, demand to speak to Parson, via the person that Parson sent to talk to him. You're saying that he should have known that he should IGNORE THE PERSON GK SENT TO NEGOTIATE ENTIRELY - not just ask or demand to be connected to Parson, but go around the usual chain of command to do so? Hire Charlie to do so?

Just imagine what you're saying in Earth politics. "I, a diplomat for my country, have something important to communicate to another country... so I'm going to skip talking to the diplomatic contact at their embassy in my capitol, who was specifically sent to talk to me about this, and give a phone call directly to Obama!" Right.

If im currently in possession of Obama's nukes, then I at least wish to speak to his CWL. Not some guy I KNOW was only employed THAT DAY.

And if it doesn't work, at least he gets points for trying, instead of allowing himself to be distracted by Ossomer.

How is it that he would get points for trying all those other things (which we, with our omniscient reader POV, know wouldn't work,

No you misunderstand - we're still talking about the thinkagram. He gets points for trying that (or at least, something similarly direct) instead of focusing on his 2nd priority, but that's not the main point of that particular post.

The point was, Kyrt suggested that Parson wouldn't take the call, and he wanted to know what could be done if that actually happened. So all the options listed above are a very quick list of possible plan b's, because Kyrt asked for them.

[Oberon]

You're saying that he should have known that he should IGNORE THE PERSON GK SENT TO NEGOTIATE ENTIRELY - not just ask or demand to be connected to Parson, but go around the usual chain of command to do so? Hire Charlie to do so?

Just imagine what you're saying in Earth politics. "I, a diplomat for my country, have something important to communicate to another country... so I'm going to skip talking to the diplomatic contact at their embassy in my capitol, who was specifically sent to talk to me about this, and give a phone call directly to Obama!" Right.

Right. Or at least those potential steps which you so deride as being unrealistic are very realistic, given the actual situation. Because that situation isn't at all the same as the hypothetical you outlined, and thus your hypothetical fails to apply.

Here's what we know: This was not set up to be a meeting of equals. And this is probably Tram's first and most critical mistake. Instead Jetstone dictated some terms via the big scroll and an archon. Those terms involved at least the dropping of all Foolamancy and the specific positioning of the GK forces, and can be assumed to have asked to speak to someone. Either Jetstone specified Ossomer, or Parson decided to send Ossomer.

So when a guy who is a smart diplomat feels, as Tram obviously did, that opening a discussion with the Side you have concluded that you need to form an alliance with only needs to take the form of ordering about their units, and communicating nothing at all about your intent, an intent which is very different from what a smart diplomat should know full well that GK is most likely anticipating, I call that guy an idiot ball holder. The decision to open with that approach wasn't the actions the readers could be expecting, given Tram's smart diplomat build-up, and Tram's stated need.

And when that same guy basically opens the discussion with "blah blah, I'm really witty, your clothes suck and your ruler and and your CWL is a dishonorable worm", instead of, you know, diplomacy, I again call that guy an idiot ball holder. That wasn't the actions the readers could be expecting, given Tram's smart diplomat build-up, even if it matched his snarky personality. Again, a smart diplomat knows how to rule himself, and doesn't just rely on the opponent being overawed by his brilliant (that's sarcasm) repartee...

It is possible to hold the opinion that Tram was simply doing as many diplomats do: Dealing as if he was in a position of strength, in order to get the best terms for his side. And that is fine, as long as it works. When a character makes a call on a diplomatic approach and it works, we see some support for the informed ability that this character is a smart diplomat. But it's not working, is it? In fact, Tram's approach failed to even communicate his basic intentions to his opponent, and instead communicated that this parley was going to be "Royal parley, business as usual, expect to be insulted and then attacked." And when a character makes a call on a diplomatic approach and it does not work, we see that that character has failed to be a smart diplomat, despite the informed ability he has been presented as possessing.

[President_Allosaurus]

[teratorn]

I do agree that she'd take out basic infantry easily enough, but one-on-one with a warlord like Adam (who's probably no slouch in levels, considering he appeared to be the guy under Trem out in the field, and has authority over quite a few other units, suggesting he's been in a few fights and won them), I don't think she'd do so well.

Well without knowing her stats we can't be sure unless Rob makes her fight Antium. I still think she can easily defeat the guy because Parson knew the stats involved and was sure that she and a stack of uncroaked were strong enough to defeat Ansom, even factoring the bonus from the arkenpliers. But there's not much point in debating this further, she won't be fighting alone and besides it seems Antium is going to get croaked by friendly fire.

On a different note, I've seen some references in this thread to units not being able to take initiative (that is, starting an attack) against enemies outside of their turn, but where does that come from? It's inconsistent not only with recent developments but also with book one.

[Estelindis]

I feel really sorry for Ossomer on this page. I don't know whether his expression in panel four is due to confusion / being out of the loop, being so casually addressed as "Ossomer-thing" by his father, knowing what's going to happen to his people and family and not being able to stop it, or something else. But I really, really feel for the guy.

Also feel bad for Duke Antium. Only noticed in this page that more than even his arm is melted away. Ick and ouch!

I really like the fact that in spite of Jetstone being portrayed as pompous and out of touch in many ways they still have lots of characters with sympathetic attributes. One of the great things about this comic is never knowing quite who to root for (though I tend not to root for Parson on the grounds that he has plot immunity and doesn't need me to root for him).

Incidentally, I shall not comment on the Tram issue, as I don't think any of us are in a position to know either way right now. Just as there are things Parson knows that Tram doesn't know, there are things the authors know that we don't. We'll see who proves what in time and I am happy to wait.

[Oberon]

Ossomer wishes you would stop calling his brother names.

I will, just as soon as the character lives up to the hype about his super diplomatic capabilities which have both brought Jetstone more shmuckers than any of his 50ish brothers, and have also utterly failed to actually manage to diplomatically engage "on screen."

[Oberon]

On a different note, I've seen some references in this thread to units not being able to take initiative (that is, starting an attack) against enemies outside of their turn, but where does that come from? It's inconsistent not only with recent developments but also with book one.

Some people seem to think that Erfworld works like Monopoly, or Stratego, or Civilization, or any number of other examples which have been trotted out. In those games when it is your turn the opponent may as well not be present at all. But the author has made it quite clear to anyone who has been paying attention that this is not the case in Erfworld, and that there are plenty of actions, including attack, that Sides may conduct "off-turn." Some folks just seem to have missed that communication, and keep stating that Tram could expect that he could go watch a football game since it is the Jetstone turn and not have to worry about any potential GK or other Side taking actions which can impact the Jetstone Side greatly. After the volcano uncroaking, and Kingworld, it might be expected that people would have gotten the point by now. But sadly this is not the case.

[ftl]

]Some people seem to think that Erfworld works like Monopoly, or Stratego, or Civilization, or any number of other examples which have been trotted out.

Yes, some people do.

For the purposes of discussion, the most important part is that those "some people" include everyone popped in Erfworld.

But the author has made it quite clear to anyone who has been paying attention that this is not the case in Erfworld,

And it is in fact clear to everyone who has access to what the AUTHOR says - i.e. the readers. Not for the characters in the story, who are popped KNOWING instinctively that it's like Stratego.

Some folks just seem to have missed that communication, and keep stating that Tram could expect that he could go watch a football game since it is the Jetstone turn and not have to worry about any potential GK or other Side taking actions which can impact the Jetstone Side greatly.

Nope. We're saying that Tram and any other Erfworlder WOULD expect that he can go watch a football game, not that they could do so with impunity. We all know perfectly well that Parson is gonna break things - but no Erfworlder is able to expect that. Not even Jack, who's spent a whole summer gaming scenarios with Parson.

Heck, in this case, Tram ACTUALLY DID take as much time as it would take to watch a football game - lots of time has passed, with the GK forces sitting in airspace doing nothing, from between when GK's turn ended and when Tram finally got through everything else he meant to do that turn, before even getting to the negotiation.

[Althernai]

This was not set up to be a meeting of equals. And this is probably Tram's first and most critical mistake.

It's only a mistake from the reader's perspective because we know what Parson is up to. In fact, this is the reply to many of the arguments you've made in this thread: Tremmenis is acting wisely for somebody who was unaware of the "mounted heavies", "harvest and decrypt" and "Magic Kingdom as a means of transportation" tricks. Of course, given those three tricks, what he is doing is pretty stupid, but that's the consequence of having to fight the perfect warlord.

Indeed, it was not setup to be a meeting of equals -- why would it be? As far as Jetstone and all of its allies (look at the responses of Jillian, Duncan, King Don, etc.) know, the battle is over. Gobwin Knob has lost. Their remaining units are sitting ducks above a capital city with a spelled up tower, a bunch of casters, warlords and archers and the only thing they can manage is the crap attack with yellow dragons which will be slaughtered in short order. They're about to lose an Arkentool, a massive army and two valuable casters while Jetstone will sustain at most some damage to its infantry. In these circumstances, why on Erf would Jetstone set the parley up as a meeting of equals? It holds all of the cards while Gobwin Knob has no more than a tantrum up its sleeve.

So yes, Tremmenis is going to order around Gobwin Knob's units, start the parley by mocking Ossomer to try figuring out how much of his brother is left, take his sweet time, and keep Gobwin Knob guessing about what his terms are going to be because there is nothing meaningful they can do but parley with him. After the yellow dragon tantrum is deal with, the only thing they can do is parley and if they don't agree to his terms, they'll be slaughtered. He is establishing that he is in control of the situation in order to get better terms later on.

The only mistake (and it is likely to be fatal) is of course that there is something they can do, but give a guy about to be hit by 3 distinct zero-day exploits a break.

[teratorn]

]Some people seem to think that Erfworld works like Monopoly, or Stratego, or Civilization, or any number of other examples which have been trotted out.

Yes, some people do.

For the purposes of discussion, the most important part is that those "some people" include everyone popped in Erfworld.

Not really, Tram was afraid Parson would hit him with the yellows, and he even made sure the yellows were kept from the tower so they wouldn't attack, a clear indication he was aware of what yellows can and can't do. He thought about the obvious, attacking the tower, and although the poop thing went twice through his mind he failed to see the implications. It's like his mind was trying to tell him where the danger was. I do indeed think he was "stupid" and he'll be chastising himself for that. He's a smart guy and I expect he will be the first to remark on how dumb he was.

[Lamech]

And it is in fact clear to everyone who has access to what the AUTHOR says - i.e. the readers. Not for the characters in the story, who are popped KNOWING instinctively that it's like Stratego.

Except for the fact that they do not? Parson is able to determine numerous off-turn actions by asking other erfworlders what can be done off-turn. Tram considers the fact that GK can attack. Twice. Slately worries about what GK could do.

[kagato23]

I do agree that she'd take out basic infantry easily enough, but one-on-one with a warlord like Adam (who's probably no slouch in levels, considering he appeared to be the guy under Trem out in the field, and has authority over quite a few other units, suggesting he's been in a few fights and won them), I don't think she'd do so well.

Well without knowing her stats we can't be sure unless Rob makes her fight Antium. I still think she can easily defeat the guy because Parson knew the stats involved and was sure that she and a stack of uncroaked were strong enough to defeat Ansom, even factoring the bonus from the arkenpliers. But there's not much point in debating this further, she won't be fighting alone and besides it seems Antium is going to get croaked by friendly fire.

On a different note, I've seen some references in this thread to units not being able to take initiative (that is, starting an attack) against enemies outside of their turn, but where does that come from? It's inconsistent not only with recent developments but also with book one.

Awwww. This was actually one of those civilized debates where we argued our points and perspectives without making it personal and/or antagonistic for it's own sake! I missed when those were the only kind! We agree on that though: in the present circumstance, Antium's about to get some new colors.

[oslecamo2]

I do agree that she'd take out basic infantry easily enough, but one-on-one with a warlord like Adam (who's probably no slouch in levels, considering he appeared to be the guy under Trem out in the field, and has authority over quite a few other units, suggesting he's been in a few fights and won them), I don't think she'd do so well.

Well without knowing her stats we can't be sure unless Rob makes her fight Antium. I still think she can easily defeat the guy because Parson knew the stats involved and was sure that she and a stack of uncroaked were strong enough to defeat Ansom, even factoring the bonus from the arkenpliers.

Hamster didn't know that. All he knew it's that Ansom was in the air and all the airforce he had available to intercept him was three flying mounts, a couple fresh uncroacked warlords and Wanda to give them a fat bonus for being on the same stack. Hamster sent them because he had nothing else better to stop Ansom's killing spree. Do or die. Or more precisely, fall to the ground, be heavily wounded and rescued by the dirtmancer.

On a different note, I've seen some references in this thread to units not being able to take initiative (that is, starting an attack) against enemies outside of their turn, but where does that come from? It's inconsistent not only with recent developments but also with book one.

It was on one of the very first Hamster klogs, when leadership was explained. Unled units auto-attack enemies. And it's been always applied so far in the story. I don't know what incosistencies you're talking about, mind pointing them out?

[Smoker]

It was on one of the very first Hamster klogs, when leadership was explained. Unled units auto-attack enemies. And it's been always applied so far in the story. I don't know what incosistencies you're talking about, mind pointing them out?

Ditto's post, about 3rd from the bottom of page 18. No inconsistencies in the actual comic.