teratorn wrote:We know that is not the case. Parson has zero move and he was able to mount and dismount (Wanda was also able to ride unipegataurs during RCC's turn).
Simply pointing out a mechanism to illustrate what I meant. The rules simply may not allow Wanda to dismount or initiate a deliberate fall.
kagato23 wrote:She's got several different kinds of magic though, and we know from Ansom that the pliers are melee-capable. Not a powerhouse of hit reducer like the Arkenhammer, but between that and the fact that she's got multiple schools of discipline (and I bet croakamancy itself has at least one or two nasty spells to cast on enemies) it would probably take a stack to take her down
Of which JS has how many in the Atrium? Several regiments worth. Shes going down. If it cost JS a regiment or two it'd probably be worth it...especially because they've speculated the decrypted may simply cease to be. Does she have some super secret power to kill off hundreds or thousands of troops withone spell? Possibly.,..but then she'd be capable of taking cities by herself.
Wanda needs to survive - she needs to survive both the fall and she needs to survive long enough for her decryption to get going. Having her simply fall doesn't provide that cover. Having her veiled and fall doesn't provide that cover. Gettign her to the ground after GK damaged the atrium and killed some JS troops, then had their own dwagons and soldiers fall? That possibly does provide the cover.
But Wanda getting her mount shot down and surviving the fall is dead.
teratorn wrote:She'd sweep the floor with Antium. Before this, without the pliers, she had no problem going after Ansom. Ansom had the bonus from the pliers but even then she unmounted him and took the pliers from him.
Even were that true, its not Antium she'd be facing without Parson Plan. Its Antium and several hundred or even thousand infantry.
Oberon wrote:And you are welcome to hold your opinion on Tram's rationale for why he did what he did. I have a slightly higher standard: The correct (IMO) approach, followed by results. You can continue to feel that Tram's approach was valid. I disagree, and we can both see the results. So Tram failed in approach and failed in results, and you are still free to decide that he "did the best he could", but history is showing us things a bit differently than that opinion.
His approach was correct. He is fighting, in this case, against the Royals reputation for adding insult to injury with spurious parleys. A direct approach to Parson had a very good chance of being ignored as such, and that in turn would hurt his own bargaining position as Parson could then later point out, legitimately, that he was fully prepared to see his own force wiped out. Going through Ossomer removed that possibility, gave Tram the option to probe and interrogate Ossomer and gave him a way to actually have a member of GK vouch for him - he has, in the past, negotiated with enemies in good faith rather than wipe them out, even when he held the upper hand.
The one and only downside to this is the possibility that GK may use the yellows to cause some damage. This is an act Tram cannot realistically prevent without talking to Parson....and thats not an act Tram is likely to fulfil just by asking. The consequences of failure are potentially devastating here and the costs - the yellows engage in limited bombing attacks after which they can be swiftly shot down - are minor.
Your approach makes sense if, and only if, Tram felt he was under a time pressure, the effects of not acting were devastating to his cause and Tram had a realistic chance of not only getting through to Parson but persuading he was dealing in good faith. None of which appears to be the case. Tram had no time pressure, the consequences of the yellow attack was relatively minor, Tram couldn't guarantee Parson talking to him and going in straight meant there was no oportunity to persuade him he was acting in good faith....that he was serious about letting GK keep its strike force.
Kyrt wrote:An interesting perspective, from a person who I believe has supported Tram's actions by claiming that very little time has passed. So the yellows shot down by tower defenses will be falling at a rate of "one body here, another there....two a minute later"? Then when Maggie tells Parson that "the tower is engaging the yellow dwagon stacks, Lord. We've lost four...now five..." about 5 or more minutes passed?
4 or 5 in a short period of time when they were sitting still and no other GK units were involved, allowing JS to focus on just those units. As it is, better to get 50 or whatever falling at once than 5. Especially because in any battle, it will be JS who can force the pace.
Why do people keep thinking that a unit cannot attack just because it is not that unit's turn? The rules as they have been communicated to us state the exact opposite: A unit must attack when it encounters an enemy unit, unless it is led.
I thought it said something about this in the city battle rules we've been given. Or was it one of the Klogs?
And yet again, full out wrong. Tram both knew that Parson could attack off-turn and that that attack was a perfectly legal option for the GK expeditionary forces.
Attack....in this case....being to let the bomb fall as opposed to actually attack across a zone boundary. Off turn attack wasn't an option unless JS forced the issue by attacking them, thus invoking defence. The SBombs fall....which is why they are an exception.
Lamech wrote:I bet she could easily take a warlord or two.
Possibly...can she take a regiment or two?
Moved directly over the heavies and infantry units that are central to victory in normal battles? The thing Jetstone would need to fight if negotation fell through? Thats not a whole lot of damage control there. And of course Jetstone still loses barganing power.
Moved away from the tower where they could affect the negotiations; moved away from the archers and casters who were the only unit capable of attacking them; moved above an area of the garrison where ground troops could catch any fall survivors.
Those ground units weren't going to be involved to any huge degree.
True GK might view such an attempt as part of the insult process. They almost certainly WILL view insults as part of the insult process. If you want someone to view your parley as a serious parley and negotation you should negotiate, NOT insult.
Tram was probing Ossomers loyalties here. Not by insulting GK directly, but by repeating ossomers own worlds back at him.
And Tram didn't have to persuade Ossomer he was serious..he has to persuade Parson. In neither case, however, is it necessary for him to hide his disdain for GK, especially not to Ossomer.
Vanna had the same restrictions GK had.
No..she didn't. To posit why not..suppose Kingworld was cast on JS? What if it forced an end to GKs turn by simply bringing forward JSs turn? But as part of the defending side, Vanna wasn't as restricted by zone boundaries...GK was and is.
What matters is that it crippled the enemy forces when no enemy units were in the same zone.
But they were in the same hex.
Moving troops is just another kind of attack.
No. And its also something any Erfworld would consider largely impossible off turn.
Smoker wrote:This sounds a bit like
"If someone is sick, take them directly to the hospital."
"And when/if all the doctors ignore them? What then?"
Doctors have an obligation and responsibiliy to treat the sick. It is their job.
Parson has no such obligation or responsibility to talk to Tram.
So your "when/if" should read "in the extremely unlikely event". But anyway...
Parson MAY have taken it. But as he himself said, they'd proven they can't parley with JS, not to mention he'd been told the parley was all but a sham meant more to humiliate and justify the good guys attacking than anything remotely substantial. The only substantial reason he'd have for taking it would be if he could do a better job stalling than Ossomer....but Ossomer didn't have to stall for long and Parson was directinf his attack.
Parson no doubt would have been very amenable to a pact if one could be arranged. Thats very different from saying that he'll automatically take a call from JS that, as far as he is concerned, is a simple setup as he has been told. Tram, meanwhile, is fully aware of Royaltys reputation in this regard so hes faced with a simple dilemma.
He wants to negotiate in good faith and to do so requires talking to Parson, if not Stanley. Calling them out of the blue MAY get a response and it may not. Given the potential harm to the negotiations if the call is refused, as well as the potential benefits by talking to one of GKs warlords, his decision makes sense. The only cost is the potential attack by the yellows....which he can easily shoot down.
1) Kill a dwagon and try again, and keep killing dwagons until he answers.
You're going to kill them anyway. Parson "knows" that. From Trams pov...every dwagon he shoots down results in fewer hostages to bargain with.
2) Pay GK a small tribute - I bet a thousand Shmuckers showing up in the treasury would at least get Parson curious.
Even were this likely to work...JS is all but broke.
3) Try to talk to someone else of authority. Wanda even. Once you've explained to her that JS wishes to discuss GKs offer of alliance, I fail to believe she will not relay that back to Parson.
Ossomer is someone of authority. A Warlord. What do you thinK Tram was doing talking to him? Nor was Parson going to send Wanda...not after what happened Unaroyal. The only other people of note I'm aware of were Jack, KC and Sylvia.
4) Send cubbins through the magic kingdom to Gobwin Knob, holding an olive branch.
MK is neutral.
5) Almost anything else that involves getting Parson's attention.
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Of which Tram appears to have chosen your option 3. Which also lets him "interrogate" the warlord he talks to beforehand. Ossomer works well from Trams pov as it also allows him to probe a decrypted and Ossomer can verify that he has negotiated, in good faith, in similar circumstances before.
The question then is which option is more likely to get Tram what he wants? Which is more beneficial? One way he talks to Parson sooner if it works but has a fair chance not to and that may be detrimental, the other potentially gets him more info and is probably surer but slower.
... awesome.
