Book 2 – Page 50

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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Altima » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:56 am

I'm liking the way Slately is thinking throughout most of the conflict. Usually in these sorts of situation, the ineffectual ruler is running around like his head is cut off and generally making a mess of everything.

It really does seem like a subversion, as Slately seems to be following the If I Was An Evil Overlord Code...and still losing (to someone who most certainly isn't).

Ten smuckers says Jack gets croaked, or very nearly so, by those arrows.

It would almost be worth it to see Parson going on an epic rampage.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Lamech » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:14 am

Wakky wrote:ot so fast, Lamech! Those "red guys" might just be Jetstone troops with a veil cast on them. I wouldn't put it past Jack to pull a dirty trick like that.
Ah yes silly me. Absolutly possible. Regardless we "see" GK units. :mrgreen:
Whispri wrote:Then there's the fact that Tremannis has just wasted his Tower's spells, the only weapon at his disposal that can strike anywhere in the City, on non-Wanda units. Throw in some Foolamancy (using Scrolls if necessary) and Wanda and company could be moving out of range laughing for all he knows. Decrypted Yellows in tow, Jetstone's only chance to benefit from Garrison bonuses thoroughly wasted. All from dangers he's personally witnessed.
Under this senario Tram either burned through some of GK's foolamancy or the yellows' first lives
And as for defying Erfworld physics, Parson can enter the Magic Kingdom. Warlords aren't supposed to be able to do that.
Unfortunetly being able to break the laws of physics isn't something you can plan for. He can enter the MK, but casters are far more powerful and can do it too. Maybe Parson can do something else that violates all known rules, but that can't be planned for.
If you confine yourself to thoughts of magic, think of scrolls. Spells that summon acid rain clouds, emulate the effects of a yellow Dwagon's attack or just cause rocks to materialise above her enemies heads could really allow Wanda to do serious damage. Think of buff spells, Wanda's already been through one quadrupled arrow storm today without taking a scratch, add in a few protection scrolls and what could touch her now the Tower's drained of spells? Think of Weirdomancy scrolls saying "Actually, boop you" to Erfworld's rules with regards to firing across Zones. Think of a sufficient quantity of Healing scrolls. Tremannis should be prepared for such trouble. He is not.
Maybe GK can attack, but they would have done so already if Tram had any hope at all of stopping them. And presumably Tram is using the tower defenses in the most effective way possible; we don't know the mechanics of them nor the mechanics of protection spells, (Maybe Wanda can cast anti-magic field and they'll need spare arrows.) and Tram IS saving magic both scrolls and juice. And with healing they have to burn through hits anyway.
Tremannis worst mistake was quietly accepting promotion to a position that is simply beyond him.
Who else would take it? He is doing fine, he didn't see Parson's out of the box thinking ahead of time. Because its out of the box thinking. He immediatly recognized when something was wrong, then gained additional info, then concluded what Parson was doing, and finally set a volley for arrows at "Wanda".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Althernai » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:15 am

Whispri wrote:Tremannis worst mistake was quietly accepting promotion to a position that is simply beyond him.

The position is not beyond him -- he is doing very well for an Erfworld warlord. It's not his fault he's been matched up against an eldritch abomination and I don't think Jetstone has anyone who would have done better.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Squishalot » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:27 am

@ Whispri - the tower spells can only attack targets in the airspace, as far as I can surmise. Consider Caesar's ambush - the only reason he survived was because he went in on the ground, any air unit would've been vaporised by their tower defense.

So in hindsight, it's probably quite beneficial to Tram that only the TD spells were used, and not the casters own juice, since they can expend it on the ground forces.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Stroth » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:45 am

atalex wrote:I do wonder about Ossomer. Was his in panel 4 a sign that he was horrified about what happened and ashamed of what was coming (and of deceiving his father and brother)? Or was he speechless because he was just left completely out of the loop and he didn't know what the falling dragons meant either.



Maybe he can't react with Wanda unconscious. The decrypted have been implied to have some kind of thinkamancy connection with Wanda through the 'pliers, what if that's a 'Necessary for the function of the decrypted thing' rather than a 'neat benefit to the Attuned thing'? It would be a good way to balance the 'pliers. The army of ever-growing numbers of decrypted that they've got becomes a lot more manageable if one perfectly placed shockamancy trap can shut them all down for a turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby jabbersocky » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:58 am

Althernai wrote:
Whispri wrote:Tremannis worst mistake was quietly accepting promotion to a position that is simply beyond him.

The position is not beyond him -- he is doing very well for an Erfworld warlord. It's not his fault he's been matched up against an eldritch abomination and I don't think Jetstone has anyone who would have done better.


Atium might have been a better choice purely because he wouldn't have overruled Slately when he ordered to wipe out the flyers. But that being said tram did get alot of good intel in regards to charlie that may prove useful in the following turns. If Jetstone actually survives this battle that is.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby zilfallon » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:29 am

Stroth wrote:Maybe he can't react with Wanda unconscious. The decrypted have been implied to have some kind of thinkamancy connection with Wanda through the 'pliers, what if that's a 'Necessary for the function of the decrypted thing' rather than a 'neat benefit to the Attuned thing'? It would be a good way to balance the 'pliers. The army of ever-growing numbers of decrypted that they've got becomes a lot more manageable if one perfectly placed shockamancy trap can shut them all down for a turn.


Yes, it would be a very good way to balance the 'pliers, but that's not the point: Arkentools exist to be OVERPOWERED. Having weaknesses which balance them would totally kill the point.

Also, EPIC UPDATE! Damn Jack...That was good...I wonder if he'll do another trick like this one :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Stroth » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:39 am

zilfallon wrote:Yes, it would be a very good way to balance the 'pliers, but that's not the point: Arkentools exist to be OVERPOWERED. Having weaknesses which balance them would totally kill the point.


I meant balanced against the other Arkentools. The 'Hammer lets you convert dwagons, rock out and use some basic changeamancy. The 'Dish gives very powerful thinkamancy and maybe a bonus to gaining archons. And both of those are incredibly useful tools. But they don't really measure up to perfect conversion of all enemy units to your side with no upfront cost.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby zilfallon » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:45 am

Stroth wrote:
zilfallon wrote:Yes, it would be a very good way to balance the 'pliers, but that's not the point: Arkentools exist to be OVERPOWERED. Having weaknesses which balance them would totally kill the point.


I meant balanced against the other Arkentools. The 'Hammer lets you convert dwagons, rock out and use some basic changeamancy. The 'Dish gives very powerful thinkamancy and maybe a bonus to gaining archons. And both of those are incredibly useful tools. But they don't really measure up to perfect conversion of all enemy units to your side with no upfront cost.


What you said is true, IF we assume that we've seen all the powers of Arkenhammer and Arkendish.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby syskill » Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:23 am

Whispri wrote:
atalex wrote:I do wonder about Ossomer. Was his in panel 4 a sign that he was horrified blah blah blah

He chose to blind himself, no one made him do it. Despite that, he could see blah blah blah


You are all very stupid people indeed. That's not Ossomer, just more Foolamancy.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Smoker » Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:34 am

There's nothing to say that the Tower doesn't have LOTS more spells charged in it.

They did, after all, call off the Tower Defenses early. It's safe to assume that if you turn your torch off, there is still enough battery to turn it back on again later.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Kyrt » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:15 am

Whispri wrote:He chose to blind himself, no one made him do it. Despite that, he could see well enough to tell that non-yellow Dwagons were falling and yet... As for what else he could have done, his Father's "croak everything" plan still sounds like a fine one, it was probably their best chance of hitting Wanda.


And likely still would have failed....Parson positioned Wanda so she was screened. JS were messed up once Parson got his plan across to Jack and Wanda...after that, there was very little JS could do to stop it. Parson gambled...Wanda could very well have died in the fall....but he seems to have stacked the odds as much in his favour as he could. JSs trouble was that it could easily win the battle....but may still have lost the resulting war. JS held out for the traditional parley and for Tram and his forces to return. Tram wanted a parley for sound reasons as well. But once Parson got involved, even killing off the GK force wouldn't have helped....only Wanda needed to survive. JS shooting them down would have created a little bit more chaos and perhaps prompted Parson to harvest the mounts sooner to provide more cover for Wanda but the end result would be the same...Wanda on the ground with the pliers and a whole heap of dead bodies.

By the time he realised what was happening Wanda and company had hit the ground unmolested.


In other words, it took him a few seconds to realise Parsons plan to bypass a physical law. Fast. And his response is probably the best he can do given everything else. Trams problem is that there wasn't anything he could do to stop that. Wanda was screened enough that she likely would get down somehow. The big question was would she survive.

On the subject of the Atrium evacuation, those archers weren't too effective against Wanda at the bridge. Sylvia was actually batting arrows out of the sky. On top of that, it looks to me like those Dwagons are croaking troops who are trying to run away, granting them easy pickings, while he's leaving Wanda and company time to organise (and get to their feet) before they hit the garrison's defenders. Are the arrow hails really worth it?


Tram has enough archers to croak the entire/most GK force. That was GKs problem. Tram seems to be having them saturate the atrium...he's getting rid of survivors and hes continuing the evacuation to deny GK more dead bodies to decrypt. If he is able to keep up the arrow storm, he may very well be able to kill off a lot of decrypted as Wanda raises them and he may even get Wanda.

As for time to organise....if they stay, they're in danger from friendly fire. That provides more bodies for Wanda. As it is, the JS troops are fighting...or did you miss the decapitated dwagon?

Tremannis's mistakes are legion. If they lose this battle, they lose everything. He's Chief Warlord and he's allowing Parson's battle plan to survive contact with the enemy. Unforgivable.


And there was nothing he could do to stop it. His best option was to continue with the traditional parley. But prevent GK getting to the ground? Parsons plan involved killing his own army. He needed ONLY Wanda to survive.

What do you expect him to do to stop things? He needs to kill Wanda...but Parson had her put up screening stacks. And before that he had Jack put up baffles. So killing her wouldn't be quick or easy...and Parson would just enact his plan sooner and ignore the elements that added extra confusion.

JSs mistake was not to kill GK while Wanda was an easy target. That would still have left it in a poor position.
Trams mistake was to consider the impossible impossible....while not considering that the supply rules provided a workaround. Even then, had he attacked, he'd still be left in what he sees as an unenviable situation.

Then there's the fact that Tremannis has just wasted his Tower's spells, the only weapon at his disposal that can strike anywhere in the City, on non-Wanda units.


You would prefer that he use up his casters juice on non-critical targets? He needed to get rid of the yellows. He chose a method that ddn't waste casters juice and didn't use up arrows. As for waste....we don't know enough to state this was the best option, but its very likely the case the twoer has more spells and juice available to it....it didn't strop casting because it ran out, he ordered it stopped.

Throw in some Foolamancy (using Scrolls if necessary) and Wanda and company could be moving out of range laughing for all he knows.


Not a chance. GKs problem is that they couldn't win, they couldn't attack, they were sitting ducks, they couldn't move or escape. Foolamancy wouldn't help. Shockamancy wouldn't help. A suitable Trimancer link would help but none were in the hex.

And as for defying Erfworld physics, Parson can enter the Magic Kingdom. Warlords aren't supposed to be able to do that.


He's also been told Parson is some kind of Mathamancer...a caster. Casters CAN enter the MK.

If you confine yourself to thoughts of magic, think of scrolls. Spells that summon acid rain clouds, emulate the effects of a yellow Dwagon's attack or just cause rocks to materialise above her enemies heads could really allow Wanda to do serious damage. Think of buff spells, Wanda's already been through one quadrupled arrow storm today without taking a scratch, add in a few protection scrolls and what could touch her now the Tower's drained of spells?


600 archers firing at a cloud of targets that can't escape and 3 casters boosted by the towers spell bonus.

Think of Weirdomancy scrolls saying "Actually, boop you" to Erfworld's rules with regards to firing across Zones. Think of a sufficient quantity of Healing scrolls. Tremannis should be prepared for such trouble. He is not.


And you think this because...what? He refuses to shoot down his hostages (aka weakening his bargianbing position)? With all the scrolls in the world, what makes you think that his force of archers, made safe behind zone boundaries and off turn limitations, can't wipe out most, if not all, of GKs force? Regardless of what they do? The Erfworlders seem to think that is the case.

Tremmanis has had all the time in the World to prepare for battle. He failed to do so.


By removing units vulnerable to attack and stationing his archers in readiness for battle. What more would you have him do?

This is a Capital fight, Jetstone is dying as Tremannis flounders. They lose here? It's over, even if the King escapes he'd have no money and no army.


Even if they win they are in trouble. Thats a big reason Tram wants to parley.

Why would Gobwin Knob have to parley? All they have to do is find a way of keeping Wanda alive.


They don't have one beyond dumb luck. GK doesn't have to parley...in which case JS wipes out their strike force. GK doesn't have to agree...in which case JS wipes out their Strike force. In both cases, GK gets nothing, Wanda dies and JS gets the pliers. If GK does agree, it gets the return of a powerful strike force, several experienced warlords and a Master Foolamancer in addition to a secure border.

Thats a potentially powerful incentive.

Lord Hamster can learn everything Ossomer knows about Spacerock's defences just by asking. He has full knowledge of his own sides capabilities, which is of course denied to Jetstone. He has Mathmancy backing him up. He can talk to Ossomer and ask how best to goad his brother into reaction 'x'. And Tremannis knows all this! Yet he didn't pause to think. Didn't think enough to show concern.


And it is NOT GKs turn. GK cannot attack. It cannot move. It cannot fight. It cannot escape. Its options are limited to tossing off a few S-Bombs and trying to survive the onrushing arrow storm. It doesn't matter what Hamster knows or can find out. He can't make use of that information. Because its not his turn.

Tremannis worst mistake was quietly accepting promotion to a position that is simply beyond him.


He's doing quite well so far. Hes reacting quickly, he's grasped Parson plan and hes doing what needs to be done to counter it....evacuate the atrium to give his archers a clear line of fire and deny Wanda more bodies and have his troops try to remove Wanda. Is there a better plan? He could have had all the troops remain to search for Wanda...but that would remove his archers from that battle and give Wanda more troops if they didn't get her...GK does have a Foolamancer.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby suryasm » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:19 am

Damn that Wanda pic gives me all sorts of disturbing thoughts. Great art as always.

All I have to say after watching Jack operate, is that he IS Erfworld's Director of Deception, Disinformation, and Psychological Operations. Or am I the only one who read that book?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby the_tick_rules » Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:08 am

Jack, you da man.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Geordy » Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:12 am

Whispri wrote:Wanda's alive and in a moment she's going to shout "Angelic Hordes come forth!"

It wont happen. Why? Because in this case there would be no need for Parson to journey through the MK. Which according to the Predictomancer is definitely going to happen. There has been too much buildup for Parson entering the MK again, too.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:14 am

Sweet! A very good start for the year (I'm seeing this on Jan 1st)!

Ok, it lacks A Certain Background Character, but ya can't have everything (and besides, ---->).
And it's got loads of neat stuff!

Jack being cool, a The Cure pun (and seeing as how their music was, supposedly, by and for depressed sorta-goths, I'm really relishing it on more levels), Slately and Antium looking composed, Ossomer showing some promise for character development (I second whoever said that if he bites it, fanfic about him will start flying), the implied awesomeness of update next ...

Excellent!

Have a Good New Year, Erfworld!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby the_tick_rules » Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:23 am

Defeating Mecha streisand and now healing wanda? Robert Smith is a busy boy isn't he?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby arin » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:42 pm

Y'know... everything else aside, it occurs to me that this will be the first time in Erfworld's history that a city is conquered on it's own turn. We've seen one fall before (Unaroyal), but never change hands, and given that this is the first time anyone's ever loopholed the concept of crossing zones off-turn... makes you wonder how the "game" might interpret it.

Especially since it would also be the first time anyone made a territorial gain when it wasn't their turn.

Are such things even possible? Will it occur normally, or will it break Erfworld's source code somehow? :)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby badninja » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:50 pm

Oh boy, I love how they forgot very fast about the foolamancer that is there. Now Parson's plan is starting to become more clear, have his troops impersonate Jetstone troops so Jetstone thinks it won the battle and when they grab the fake pliers. Then they must search every unit in Jetsone to find the fakes, buying enough time for Parson to get there and start his next offensive. Is there rules regarding hidden units that where previously know about?

During the summer updates I rember something about veiled units and attacking but the exact wording is not coming to me. I think that Parson's plan is to make Jetsone declare the battle over and then surprise re-attack Jetstone to get back their lost turn. I feel that many of the surviving GK units are pretending to be Jetstone units and are waiting for the orders to attack. Great update cannot wait for the next!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Fug » Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:57 pm

I can see a simple reason why it GK could gain a very strong hand but have to retreat any units that survive- the dwagons may still turn into rations at the beginning of next turn- even if they are decrypted.

What Parson is trying with decrypting harvested units has never been tested as far as we know. Erfworld mechanics may simply take the body of something that has been harvested- even if it has been decrypted or uncroaked- and turn it into cheeseburgers.

Tinfoil hat time- Parson and survivors will retreat to the cities Jilian razed on her way home and rebuild it. Wanda will realize that fate meant her to lead her own side- since her units have their own emblem- and possibly for Parson to lead his own side since decroaked units had his emblem. A world of possibilities opens up after that.
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