Book 2 – Page 50

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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby teratorn » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:38 pm

DoctorJest wrote:
teratorn wrote:
Ansom was able to mount and dismount a spidew off-turn. Why would a gwiffon be any different?


You're assuming that. All we know is he was mounted when Sammy attacked. We don't know when he mounted, it doesn't show us when exactly he mounted the spidew. Further, he didn't dismount on his own accord. He was captured (and his mount squished)


No I'm not. He left the spidew to cleave prince Sammy's neck (check the last panel, he is on the ground), and is mounted again when Jillian comes to get him. Oh and effataigus found the text reference to him mounting the spidew in the first place, it was after kingworld.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Squishalot » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:54 pm

Smoker wrote:
oslecamo2 wrote:It was on one of the very first Hamster klogs, when leadership was explained. Unled units auto-attack enemies. And it's been always applied so far in the story. I don't know what incosistencies you're talking about, mind pointing them out?


Ditto's post, about 3rd from the bottom of page 18. No inconsistencies in the actual comic.

Ditto's post is incorrect. A better example that presumes nothing about unstated mechanics would be the dwagons in the forest ring attacking Vinny's scouting bats.

Units that are unled will attack any enemy unit they encounter. Source: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F040a.jpg

If there were no warlords with the injured dwagons, they would have attacked automatically.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Smoker » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:51 pm

justamessenger wrote:
Smoker wrote:If that stack of dwagons had not been sans leadership, then they would have immediately attacked. Please link me to this rule, because it contradicts whats happening here. Unled spidews are encountered by Jetstone forces on Jetstone's turn. They attack, even though they are completely outgunned. Note the Jetstone forces wait calmly in formation. The whole point of leadership is that you have the option of not attacking.

Its a good job some folks around here dont write rule books ;)


The 10th panel indicates that it is NOT Jetstone's turn. The spidews are attacking on their own turn.


Oops! My bad! Please refer to the dwagon donut examples suggeseted by teratorn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Oberon » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:10 pm

ftl wrote:And it is in fact clear to everyone who has access to what the AUTHOR says - i.e. the readers. Not for the characters in the story, who are popped KNOWING instinctively that it's like Stratego.
Did you really post something so clearly divergent from reality?
Book 2 - Text 25
Tram wrote:He had covered more than two-thirds of the distance to the Garrison before it occurred to him to consider the enemy units directly above him.

Though they showed no signs of impending aggression, he scolded himself. Those yellow dwagons, at least, could take some potshots at him.

Book 2 – Page 44
Tram wrote:Honestly, what's the worst they can do?
Slately wrote:I don't know. Perhaps bomb the tower?

Tram wrote:Mm, with the yellow dwagons, yes.

So, despite your insistance that all of Erfworld believes that on their own Side's turn that the enemy may as well be playing Chess and unable to take any action except watch the Side whose turn it is act, here are two characters who know much better than that.

Probably because unlike you, they pay attention to the details of the comic and don't make false and sweeping generalities that have no value.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Oberon » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:18 pm

Althernai wrote:
Oberon wrote:This was not set up to be a meeting of equals. And this is probably Tram's first and most critical mistake.

It's only a mistake from the reader's perspective because we know what Parson is up to. In fact, this is the reply to many of the arguments you've made in this thread: Tremmenis is acting wisely for somebody who was unaware of the "mounted heavies", "harvest and decrypt" and "Magic Kingdom as a means of transportation" tricks.
Ah, yes! One more repetition of the straw man of "It's only the hax that makes Tram seem stupid! He's really, really bright, he just does everything wrong but, oh my god, HAX! How could anyone possibly actually perform the function that they have been doing for many Turns when it's Parson?"

Trem's holding of the idiot ball has absolutely nothing to do with Parson using rules in a different and innovative manner, and everything to do with having utterly failed to do what a smart diplomat is supposed to be able to do: Communicate his intentions to his opponent.

-OR- The story line blows. Because if any character opposing Parson can't actually execute some skill in their own area of specialty, just because it is Parson they are facing up against, well...Idiot Ball.
Althernai wrote:Indeed, it was not setup to be a meeting of equals -- why would it be?
Why wouldn't it be? Tram himself gave you that reason: Even if Jetstone wipes out the GK expeditionary force, GK still might defeat the entire RCCII. And Tram wants to forge an alliance with GK to prevent his Side from falling. And allied nation is not a satrapy, nor a vassal state. It is a diplomatic meeting between equals. And it might not be a smart nor a diplomatic maneuver to approach someone you want to conclude a relationship of equals with by telling their envoy "You dress stupid, your overlord is scum, and your CWL seems a right dishonorable fellow. Oh, shall we be friends now?"
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Oberon » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:44 pm

Kyrt wrote:
Oberon wrote:And you are welcome to hold your opinion on Tram's rationale for why he did what he did. I have a slightly higher standard: The correct (IMO) approach, followed by results.
His approach was correct.
Current events appear to judge Tram's approach more harshly than you, if we judge of the objective basis of results rather than a subjective like or dislike for a character. Tram wanted to speak to Parson, and failed. Tram wanted to forge an alliance, and that also failed. Tram felt that forging that alliance was very important to the turning point in a war which his Side started and organized, but which has his Side and at least one powerful ally (TV) nearly bankrupt, and the target of unaligned and aligned Sides alike who smell their weakness. But Tram certainly didn't take the matter of the survival of his Side very seriously when it came time to open negotiations, and instead issued orders and insults like he was about to begin the typical Royal recipe of insult, then attack. How large a pile of fail does it take before you can recognize it?
Kyrt wrote:A direct approach to Parson had a very good chance of being ignored as such [...]
Well, all I can say to that is that it is terribly convenient to simply conclude by fiat that no other approach could have had a better outcome than a failed approach. It also conveniently allows you to claim that Tram chose the very best approach possible, since any approach was going to fail just the same.
Kyrt wrote:Your approach makes sense if, and only if, Tram felt he was under a time pressure [...]
I've given plenty of reasons why Tram should have known that he was under time pressure. All of them based upon Tram's own stated intentions. If you can't possibly agree because nothing Tram can do will ever be less than the very best approach possible (as defined by Tram's failure), then there isn't much point in continuing to discuss the subject.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Oberon » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:50 pm

GaryThunder wrote:It would have irreparably weakened Tramennis's bargaining position if he had been desperate, or even forthright, in assuring GK that his intentions were pure and genuine and that he really really wanted an alliance/non-aggression pact. When your opponent has your entire military power cornered and (almost) completely helpless and he begins his bargaining with groveling and stammered, hasty reassurances of his good faith, that sets the tone for the bargaining to come in your favor, not his.
I don't recall anyone besides you ever mentioning "groveling and stammer[ing]" And again, it's really convenient to say that taking a different approach than the one that just failed would certainly also have failed. How do you know? Perhaps you've seen Parson contacted by a "groveling and stammer[ing]" CWL of some other Side, and Parson laughed in his face and promised him only utter destruction for being a weak, insipid fool? I must have missed that update.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Smoker » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:08 pm

Also, Kyrt, I dont buy your argument that Parson not answering a call would be detrimental, which is pretty much what your objection to the thinkagram suggestion hinges on. I have read your reasoning for it, but I just dont agree with it, and dont really want to start picking on the likelyhood of a hypthetical consequence of a hypothetical action, if said action hypothetically failed, which I still believe to be extremely unlikely and out of character for the units involved.

Likewise, I dont really see the point in arguing the merits of viable plan b's if the thinkagram wasn't answered, since the 6 or so suggestions I posted took about 6 or so seconds to think up. I was only illustrating the fact that there are buttloads of options you could explore if required, and I'm sure Tramennis could come up with something, being that he is the master diplomat.

This is pretty much where its at:
oberon wrote:Well, all I can say to that is that it is terribly convenient to simply conclude by fiat that no other approach could have had a better outcome than a failed approach. It also conveniently allows you to claim that Tram chose the very best approach possible, since any approach was going to fail just the same.

So Kyrt, if you could just admit the fact that there was a chance it would work, then we are well on the way to an agreement on the topic.

If not, well I think Bland hit the nail on the head:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:I find it amusing how some people excuse Trem's failure to start a parley by saying Parson was not up for that (therefore, a more proactive approach would have been fruitless). Now, I realize a side in a debate is not a monolithic bloc, but still it's amusing how those who accuse others of reader-knowledge-induced bias trip into that trap.


There's no reason why Tramennis would expect Parson not to be interested in a direct call. He did, as far as he was concerned, hold all the cards.

Once we've established that a direct call to Parson wasn't doomed for failure from the start, we then need to agree if talking to Ossomer instead of pursuing said call was the most appropriate action, but you know, baby steps.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby ftl » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:43 pm

Oberon wrote:So, despite your insistance that all of Erfworld believes that on their own Side's turn that the enemy may as well be playing Chess and unable to take any action except watch the Side whose turn it is act, here are two characters who know much better than that.

Probably because unlike you, they pay attention to the details of the comic and don't make false and sweeping generalities that have no value.


And yet, despite knowing that some minor off-turn actions are possible, this character left a giant airforce of dwagons with a croakamancer, foolamancer, and many high-level warlords floating in the airspace of his city, while he did minor things like talk to Jillian, finish of the remnants of Ansom's force, talk to Jillian some more, talk to Slately, talk to Charlie...

...yeah, he pretty much assumed that anything they can do is minor and insignificant. And neither Slately, nor Antium, nor anybody who saw any of that - you know, leaving a giant army in the back door of your city while you do other stuff - none of them gave it a second thought. Slately didn't order the tower defenses to fire as soon as possible - he waited for Tram to get back, chatted, chatted some more. Antium wasn't worried in the slightest about what would happen as they sat there. Are they all "holding the Idiot Ball"? The ONLY person in this world who thought that an army in an airspace was still dangerous off-turn... was Parson.

OK, so not quite like Stratego. But damned close.

Trem's holding of the idiot ball has absolutely nothing to do with Parson using rules in a different and innovative manner, and everything to do with having utterly failed to do what a smart diplomat is supposed to be able to do: Communicate his intentions to his opponent.


And, let's look at WHY he was unable to communicate his intentions: because he was INTERRUPTED. He expected to have a nice long chat with Ossomer and then the chat with Parson. He (thought he) knew that the GK army was helpless - they could throw a tantrum, but they'd keep sitting in airspace for as long as it took him to give the order to open fire or the order to end turn.

So yes, his failure to communicate was ENTIRELY due to Parson using the rules in a different and innovative manner - he planned on an hour-long fireside chat, not knowing that the chat could be cut short ten seconds in. (PERMANENTLY cut short, not just interrupted by a tantrum, to be resumed after the tantrum is over.) (Actually, the chat might as well have never happened - Ossomer was sent with orders to stall, not to report back what was going on in the negotiation. So Parson might not even have known what went on in that negotiation - so there might not even have been ten seconds of opportunity to say something useful.)

Current events appear to judge Tram's approach more harshly than you, if we judge of the objective basis of results rather than a subjective like or dislike for a character. Tram wanted to speak to Parson, and failed. Tram wanted to forge an alliance, and that also failed. Tram felt that forging that alliance was very important to the turning point in a war which his Side started and organized, but which has his Side and at least one powerful ally (TV) nearly bankrupt, and the target of unaligned and aligned Sides alike who smell their weakness. But Tram certainly didn't take the matter of the survival of his Side very seriously when it came time to open negotiations, and instead issued orders and insults like he was about to begin the typical Royal recipe of insult, then attack. How large a pile of fail does it take before you can recognize it?


It takes a fail larger than what would be expected of any Erfworld character who did not know Parson's plan.

Tramennis - and every other Erfworlder - would expect that they can let the negotiation take as long as they feel like letting it take. If you're saying that makes it an epic fail - that makes every Erfworlder be holding the idiot ball, basically at all times, and you might as well not read the story. Because, as the story is going, I'm pretty sure that Parson will continue to make Erfworlders looks stupid by playing the game entirely differently than they do and violating their assumptions of how their world works.

I've given plenty of reasons why Tram should have known that he was under time pressure


And none of them trump the fact that Tram had just watched that huge, giant army sit there for hours in airspace doing nothing while he went on his merry little business.

In fact, as omniscient readers, we know that Tram was NOT under time pressure. Parson gave the order not to attack as long as the parley started - Tram could have, and did, take as much time as he wanted. Once the negotiation started, well, Tramennis didn't have any time at all - Parson gave the order before even hearing anything Tram had to say.

There's no reason why Tramennis would expect Parson not to be interested in a direct call. He did, as far as he was concerned, hold all the cards.


And, if as far as he was concerned, he held all the cards - there was no need for a direct call. A direct call would only be necessary if he felt there was time pressure - i.e. there was something GK could do that would prevent him from finishing what he was saying, or prevent him from making the call later. That is, he'd think that a direct call is necessary only if he *doesn't* think he has all the cards, for this fight at least. If he holds all the cards, there's no need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Oberon » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:53 pm

ftl wrote:OK, so not quite like Stratego. But damned close.
Close only counts if your atrium doesn't get cwapped on.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Ansan Gotti » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:56 pm

I seriously can't believe y'all are generating this much text over the same issue. From everything I can see, Kozbot's contribution to the thread has been the most helpful, because Kozbot actually has -- and has effectively conveyed -- an extremely keen understanding of turn-based games.

Yes, there are things an opponent can do off-turn, but those are the exception rather than the rule, and they still aren't considered to be a serious threat or game-changer by Erfers. They are going to learn they're wrong, the hard way, due to Parson's exploits. But it's just not in their calculus.

And despite all of these walls of text, I still haven't seen one convincing counterpoint to the fact that Tramennis, understandably, thinks he has all the time in the world. A tantrum over the Atrium against expendable units does not change that fact. Some banter with his brother -- that effectively garnered info for Tramennis and shook up Ossomer, no less -- does not change that fact.

If you truly fail to understand that, then I would respectfully (matter-of-factly, but yes respectfully) posit that you don't understand the general genre of turn-based games very well. Go reread Kozbot's posts, they convey it extremely effectively. And grasping this concept is important with respect to this webcomic, because turn-based gaming is a major (foundational, really) theme. I think it will really increase your enjoyment of the whole strip if you learn more about it. Truly.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Oberon » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:03 am

Ansan Gotti wrote:[...] an extremely keen understanding of turn-based games.
If that knowledge is based upon the TBS games which we play on our universe, then that knowledge is a very dangerous and hardly useful crutch.
Ansan Gotti wrote:Yes, there are things an opponent can do off-turn, but those are the exception rather than the rule, and they still aren't considered to be a serious threat or game-changer by Erfers.
Seriously? Not a threat, and not potentially game-changing? Really? Who had their entire coalition's expeditionary forces wiped out except for the Tardy Elves? And whose turn was it when GK wiped out all of those forces? Who had their CWL killed by a Twoll off-turn? Who just saw their doom averted by an off turn and apparently solo caster standing on their own tower balcony? Who lost 80ish archons off-turn, is rightfully terrified of Parson, and tried his best to warn Jetstone?

After all of this, you're still going to claim that Erfworlders do not and should not consider off-turn actions or attacks to be significant enough to warrant some caution?
Ansan Gotti wrote:[...] I would respectfully (matter-of-factly, but yes respectfully) posit that you don't understand the general genre of turn-based games very well. Go reread Kozbot's posts, they convey it extremely effectively [assuming that you're not talking about Erfworld]. And grasping this concept is important with respect to this webcomic, because turn-based gaming is a major (foundational, really) theme. I think it will really increase your enjoyment of the whole strip if you learn more about it. Truly.
Falsely. Erfworld has as a partial theme the appearance of similarity to a TBS game. But it operates like that only up to the point where we've been told otherwise. Ways in which are major, huge, contributors to the entire story arc, and which if they did not in fact differ so, Parson would now be dead.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Oberon » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:18 am

Ansan Gotti wrote:Some banter with his brother -- that effectively garnered info for Tramennis and shook up Ossomer, no less -- does not change that fact.
Does not change the fact that you are guessing at why Ossomer is "shook up." It might be that he is disturbed by his orders: As soon as Wanda takes the atrium and the first GK unit sets foot in the tower, Ossomer is to attack and kill Slately first, Tram second, and the casters after that. At that point he'll be able to cross the zone boundary just fine. And while this is highly speculative, my assumption that I am right is no more or less valid than your assumption that you are right. Both assumptions neatly support our theories, but I don't need mine to be right for my theory to stand, while Tram's complete waste of his opportunity to communicate real terms rather than insulting Ossomer seems to be a key foundation for your position: "See?!? Ossomer has a worried look on his face! This proves that Tram is a smart guy, because it is obviously such a wonderful accomplishment to have made Ossomer look worried that actually having held a meeting to discuss an alliance as he really wanted to couldn't possibly have been more important! Oh, and I forgot to mention that Tram would have had all the time in the world to try to make Ossomer have a worried look on his face had he has actually managed to made that alliance... Oh... But Tram is still really, really smart, gosh darn it!"
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Ansan Gotti » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:30 am

Oberon wrote:If that knowledge is based upon the TBS games which we play on our universe, then that knowledge is a very dangerous and hardly useful crutch.


Well, given the fact that we readers in our earth are the only ones who are reading this webcomic, and that we readers in our earth are intended to have a common frame of reference to the universe in the work of fiction currently being presented despite all of its differences, and that that common frame of reference revolves most obviously around Parson Gotti, the general humanoid appearance of certain characters, various pop culture references, and yes, turn-based gaming, I would say it's not a crutch at all, but a foundational understanding.

Seriously? Who had their entire coalition's expeditionary forces wiped out except for the Tardy Elves? And whose turn was it when GK wiped out all of those forces? Who had their CWL killed by a Twoll off-turn? Who just saw their doom averted by an off turn and apparently solo caster standing on their own tower balcony? Who lost 80ish archons off-turn, is rightfully terrified of Parson, and tried his best to warn Jetstone?

After all of this, you're still going to claim that Erfworlders do not and should not consider off-turn actions or attacks to be significant enough to warrant some caution?


You may not realize it, but you're making my point for me. Despite your examples, a turn-based life is SO DEEPLY ENTRENCHED in the mind of Erfers, it is so basic and so foundational, that anything which does not fit into that reality must necessarily be explained away, ignored, rationalized or rejected. Our own history is full of examples of this, of paradigm-changing inventions or developments or insights that simply cannot be processed by the population at large, to the extent that adoption is rejected or delayed. At least until their effectiveness is proven, which is what Parson is doing right now.

Erfers are even more handicapped, in a way, because they appear to have limited initiative and creativity (this is a theory but one that I support), pretty limited information flow, and can explain away any anomalies with "a wizard did it" because magic actually exists in their world.

And the exceptions do appear to be limited to situations where magic or Arkentool is available, and/or where the action is happening in a city hex. So it's going to be pretty rare, and again, the turn-to-turn experience of the Erfers is completely different. In the vast majority of cases, their lives are all about being turn-based.

Now, the fact that all of those elements (city hex, magic, Arkentool) do happen to exist in this very situation will probably be one of those things that becomes obvious in retrospect, but to a hidebound Erfer who is a slave to convention and tradition (a Royal theme) and the way things are usually done, in the midst of it? Not nearly as obvious. I mean, post-it notes were pretty obvious in retrospect, too, but the fact that no one came up with it before sure did earn 3M a lot of money.

Does not change the fact that you are guessing at why Ossomer is "shook up." It might be that he is disturbed by his orders: As soon as Wanda takes the atrium and the first GK unit sets foot in the tower, Ossomer is to attack and kill Slately first, Tram second, and the casters after that. At that point he'll be able to cross the zone boundary just fine. And while this is highly speculative, my assumption that I am right is no more or less valid than your assumption that you are right. Both assumptions neatly support our theories, but I don't need mine to be right for my theory to stand, while Tram's complete waste of his opportunity to communicate real terms rather than insulting Ossomer seems to be a key foundation for your position: "See?!? Ossomer has a worried look on his face! This proves that Tram is a smart guy, because it is obviously such a wonderful accomplishment to have made Ossomer look worried that actually having held a meeting to discuss an alliance as he really wanted to couldn't possibly have been more important! Oh, and I forgot to mention that Tram would have had all the time in the world to try to make Ossomer have a worried look on his face had he has actually managed to made that alliance... Oh... But Tram is still really, really smart, gosh darn it!"


Look, if you refuse to acknowledge that the artwork and the flow of the banter clearly indicate Tramennis scoring points, then we really don't have much to talk about. I will just say our opinions differ. But I think your biases and presuppositions are really blinding you, in this case. Tramennis also scored points in a very similar way with Charlie, by the way, so we do have more evidence that he is a skilled diplomat and negotiator than just the current situation.

Falsely. Erfworld has as a partial theme the appearance of similarity to a TBS game. But it operates like that only up to the point where we've been told otherwise. Ways in which are major, huge, contributors to the entire story arc, and which if they did not in fact differ so, Parson would now be dead.


And again, if you refuse to acknowledge that turn-based gaming is a rather foundational theme of this webcomic (turn-based gaming, not "the appearance of similarity to a TBS" as a "partial" theme) then we just don't have a lot to talk about. I will simply say I disagree, and internally boggle a bit about what webcomic you're reading.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Oberon » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:48 am

Ansan Gotti wrote:[...] I would say it's not a crutch at all, but a foundational understanding.
You would say that, but the comic itself has shown that you are just wrong.
Ansan Gotti wrote:Despite your examples, a turn-based life is SO DEEPLY ENTRENCHED in the mind of Erfers, it is so basic and so foundational, that anything which does not fit into that reality must necessarily be explained away, ignored, rationalized or rejected.
Meh, now you're just kinda making stuff up because I guess if you're right it makes your position on Tram's idiocy more accurate. But you making stuff up doesn't make for valid debate fodder. Comic reference or it didn't happen. That, or we've gone circle to Tram being an especially bright sort in an Erfworlder full of brain-dead inhabitants. And wouldn't the story of Parson, the brilliant and 'leet gamer, facing off against the most brilliant retard in the retard farm make for a wonderfully gripping tale? No? Well, here we find a point of agreement.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Ansan Gotti » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:03 am

Oberon wrote:
Ansan Gotti wrote:[...] I would say it's not a crutch at all, but a foundational understanding.
You would say that, but the comic itself has shown that you are just wrong.


Look Oberon, the comic is about a turn-based world, where they conduct turn-based warfare. If you disagree, then I will let the court of our peers decide for themselves who is correct.

Meh, now you're just kinda making stuff up because I guess if you're right it makes your position on Tram's idiocy more accurate. But you making stuff up doesn't make for valid debate fodder. Comic reference or it didn't happen. That, or we've gone circle to Tram being an especially bright sort in an Erfworlder full of brain-dead inhabitants. And wouldn't the story of Parson, the brilliant and 'leet gamer, facing off against the most brilliant retard in the retard farm make for a wonderfully gripping tale? No? Well, here we find a point of agreement.


I'm not making anything up, I'm making an observation based on real-life, and explaining how those real-life tendencies are even more visible and entrenched in Erfers. And my observation is artfully supported by the text, because what I am positing is actually happening in the strip, and has happened many times before. Heck, Ansom AND Stanley were both ASTONISHED at the very concept of hit-and-run tactics against the siege, because it didn't fit their conventional, hidebound views of warfare! It just didn't match their paradigm, so they didn't even consider it as a possibility. And yet it is quite obvious, both to us Earthers and even to Erfers in retrospect. But ONLY in retrospect. And that is the point.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Smoker » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:46 am

I wonder if you could look at it from the other side: Are there any examples of Erfworlders (ie not Parson) doing anything productive when it is not their turn?

That could be a pretty good indication of how they view their turn based world.

I can think of
1) Charlie offering an alliance to save Ansom when it wasn't Charlies turn.
2) Kingworld (of course)
3) Casters buying, selling and working in the MK

.. any more?

btw, I'm not trying to justify any particular point, just asking a question.
No, no. It hit him in the brain because it killed him. - Dante
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Lamech » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:53 am

Vanna was part of the defending side, the side being the Allliance. That's what an alliance does, as evidenced by Book 1, is make everyone in the Alliance share the same turn. Ansom used this fact as an exploit to get a double-move. Allies become part of the same Side as long as the alliance holds. Gobwins and Hobgobwins, for example, are allies of GK, and move on their turn, move with their units, and are commanded by their CW.

Defenders can cross zone boundaries within the city they are defending. This was clearly established in Book 1 as well. Further, casting Kingworld doesn't appear to need to target troops, so zone boundaries are irrelevant since it's not a spell with range that needs to be considered. Additionally, it seems heavily implied that Charley was involved in the trimancer link that created Kingworld, which meant the Arkendish is a factor, and Arkentools seem to have their own rules.
Umm... GK is a side. Jetstone is a side. The alliance? Not a side. Can you provide a single example where an alliance is called a side?http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-02-24.jpg Here we see Slately surprised that Jillian can cross zones. She is clearly bound by zone restrictions. So it appears Jetstone allies are bound by the same restrictions as GK, and therefore Vanna is as well.

Ansan Gotti wrote:Look Oberon, the comic is about a turn-based world, where they conduct turn-based warfare. If you disagree, then I will let the court of our peers decide for themselves who is correct.
It is "turn-based", but that doesn't mean your totally helpless. In fact rather important things are doable off-turn; making scrolls and items/spending juice. A few rareish forms of attack (trimancy, bombing, city defense, turnamancy moves, possibly others.) Negotations can take place off turn ("Haggar help Jillian or die"). Some forms of movement (gravity based moves, turnamancy, portals). Some spells. And of course all fighting is done in real time within a hex.
So I think a better analogy for erfworld's turns would be magic the gathering, munchkin, or DnD.
In magic attacking only your turn. Some spells are your turn only. You would be insane if you thought the other guy was helpless, and in fact a number of important things really only get done on the other guys turn. (Tap: 1 damage to something)
In munchkin the main focus is the monster slaying and leveling, yet other people can do so very much on your turn.
In DnD you can normally only move and take actions on your turn, and yet AoO, readied actions and immediate actions can be devestating.
Turn-based=! helpless off-turn.
And despite all of these walls of text, I still haven't seen one convincing counterpoint to the fact that Tramennis, understandably, thinks he has all the time in the world. A tantrum over the Atrium against expendable units does not change that fact. Some banter with his brother -- that effectively garnered info for Tramennis and shook up Ossomer, no less -- does not change that fact.
As long as Tram doesn't do anything to provoke GK or alter their situation he has every reason to think he has whatever his turn's time limit is (and possibly all night). But the royals are known for using parley's to insult and the RCCII is now known for using cease-fires to catch their opponent off-guard. If GK believes that Tram isn't parleying in good faith, what did Tram honestly think they would wait around for Jetstone to attack them while their defenses were down? Or did Tram think that his insults would be seen as parleying in good faith? And don't say the damage would be minor. If it wasn't for Parson's plan the yellows could have been screened and then Jetstone would have had to croak the rest of their bargining chips.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby joosy » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:54 am

DoctorJest wrote:
teratorn wrote:
Ansom was able to mount and dismount a spidew off-turn. Why would a gwiffon be any different?


You're assuming that. All we know is he was mounted when Sammy attacked. We don't know when he mounted, it doesn't show us when exactly he mounted the spidew. Further, he didn't dismount on his own accord. He was captured (and his mount squished)


OMG. Folks. You cannot cross hex or zone BOUNDARIES off-turn. With few exceptions it is just that simple. You can do whatever you want as long as you do not cross a hex or zone BOUNDARY off-turn. You can mount/unmount. You can hop up and down. You can play checkers. You can knit a sweater. You can fly a kite. If you are wondering if you can or can't do something off-turn first ask yourself if it crosses a hex or zone boundary. If the answer is yes then the answer is most likely no.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Oberon » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:10 am

Ansan Gotti wrote:Look Oberon, the comic is about a turn-based world, where they conduct turn-based warfare. If you disagree, then I will let the court of our peers decide for themselves who is correct.
That thing that you keep saying, I do not think it means what you think it means.
Ansan Gotti wrote:I'm not making anything up, [...]
Yeah, you're making stuff up. Citation or it didn't happen. I can cite plenty of references to characters, and I'll exclude Parson even though he got all of his rules knowledge from discussions with Erfworld residents (with the exception of the heavy/mounted thing), being well aware of a plethora of off-turn activities which Erfworld people can take. I'm not aware of a single off-turn activity you can take in Civ IV. Unless in Civ IV you can spot an approaching enemy force and spend shmuckers to upgrade your city? Because, you know, in Erfworld, you can. Even if you don't like to think about it.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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