BLANDCorporatio wrote:I find it amusing how some people excuse Trem's failure to start a parley by saying Parson was not up for that (therefore, a more proactive approach would have been fruitless). Now, I realize a side in a debate is not a monolithic bloc, but still it's amusing how those who accuse others of reader-knowledge-induced bias trip into that trap.
Tram doesn't know if Parson would be up for it. We the readers know he would likely be willing to negotiate but there are strong reasons to suggest that he wouldn't accept a call from Tram at this time.
What Tram does know is that Royals have a reputation Parson is likely aware of....and that Parson thus has no reason to accept Parley with him given that the result - the destruction of GKs strike force - is effectively a foregone conclusion. Tram can't convince him of that without talking to him and trying to do so via any means would have a possibility of being ignored and thus devaluing Trams bargaining position.
This is all stuff Tram should know...I'm not sure where your reader knowledge argument comes from. Yes, Tram could have tried to contact Parson before talking to Ossomer...but when and if Parson refused, it would be Trams position which would be weakened. The usual Royal approach to parleys in this situation is a large obstacle Tram has to overcome.
Wanda dismounting while in the air zone didn't require a change of zone, and dismounting in these circumstances equates to a fall. We have seen Jillian starting a deliberate fall
, so it's possible.
That was on her turn. She had move. And there are games where mounting or dismounting a unit requires move to be spent.
Lamech wrote:Except he doesn't have the entire military might of GK cornered. He has a lot of it. A huge chunk of it
Which doesn't change the essence of the argument....JS can cause great damage to GKs armed forces here. They are about to kill off several warlords, two caster and recover the pliers. If they try to reach PArsona nd he rebuffs them and then they try again....they've damaged their own side by indicating that they really want a parley and hence agreement.
but the part he doesn't have? Enough to crush his side.
Unless you read the word "could" as "would" they are left with enough power and cities and units and time to create a force that may possibly dedfeat the RCC2.
Nor does he need to come grovelling. "I think we should agree to a cease-fire after this.
As opposed to the cease fire they already have as part of the parley?
I'm sure you'll need the time to rebuild your shattered forces and we would really prefer it if we could use our army to crush carpool and save our good friends in TV instead of crushing you."
"We would greatly prefer alliance to conquest"
What Tram did was read off the script that goes "Parley just to insult and then attack" or in the RCCII's case "Parley to insult and during the parley." He might as well have said “Hey Ossomer we aren’t actually parleying in good faith, we just want to insult you and get you to lower your defenses for our attack”.
What Tram did was seize control and dominate the conversation he was having with Ossomer. You see him throwing Ossomers own words back at him as insulting..others see it as probing Ossomer to see how strong decryption actually was, to test his loyalty, to guage as much as he can whetheer turning Ossomer was likely....GK after becomes a lot weaker without the decrypted.
Did he think GK was gonna meekly wait around waiting from Jetstone to attack while the baffle was down?
I think a better question would be...in Trams eyes, did it actually matter? Only the yellows could attack. Everything else fwas forbidden via zone boundaries. From where they were they couldn't affect the archers, casters or parley. If they caused trouble, Tram had the option of shooting down some , if not all, of GKS force. The yellows alone could not do significant damage to JS and were easy to remove.
Tram meanwhile, had the option of interrogating whatever warlord they sent over and using him to communicate Trams desire to parley with Parson.
What did he lose by doing things this way? Not a thing.
Why would being told that the Chief Warlord isn't gonna talk be worse than being told they can't send one random low ranking person to talk? I think that being told that even there least important units can't spare time for you would be worse than being told the second in command can't spare time.
If I understand your question correctly....Tram wants to negotiate with Parson. The last thing he wants to do with this is to undermine the value of his hostages. Contacting Parson directly, wthout any "introduction" not onyl has a fiar chance of failing (and thus be futile) but also gives Parson some negotiating edges...."Hes tryign again? He must really WANT this Parley" and " I was ready to see my strike force destroyed with no gain from you earlier...I think you'll have to up your offer if you're serious".
If he has a reputation of insults maybe he should NOT insult?
He doesn't and he isn't.
Yes. Just throwing the nearby units in the atrium at her is how Jetstone would lose against a lone Wanda.
Really - so your position is that Wanda can defeat, single handedly, several thousand infantry troops all by herself?
What does she need Parson for? She can conquer the world all by herself.
Then she has a few dead bodies, then decrypted. The decrypted have her bonus, probably a warlord’s, artifact and dance
She ain't dancing.
Each decrypted would easily average more than one kill, and she would snowball from there.
No...she needs a ceratin critical mass before she becomes a danger. Otherwise its her plus 100 decrypted fighting several regiments, all of whom have the one primary goal...kill wanda. She needs enough decrypted nearby to keep the enemy troops near her away from her having her land in the middle of the atrium and beign surrounded by several infantry regiments is not condusive to her well being. .
Seriously? Vanna is not a unit defending her city. Vanna is not a Jetstone unit. She is not in her own side’s city. She is not defending one of her side’s cities. Page 22 implies that Jillian could not cross zones. Vanna has the exact same restrictions as GK.
Except Vanna is part of Faq, who is alliance with JS. She is after all acting and moving on their turn.
Plus "Spells are trickier. Most can't be cast unless there are enemy units in the same hex/city" - which is why Jack can veil the troops while in JS airspace and off turn.
Plus "When an enemy comes to you on their turn, you can engage, and you can cast. This includes when they are attacking your city. "
In essence, you are trying to suggest a restriction where none exist...both vanna and Jack can cast off turn...because there is an enemy force in the same hex. Vanna as a member of the RCC is defending the city and so treats GK as the enemy.
Attack can mean troop movement into enemy territory.
In real life. What you've described above is a simple move. Attack refers to the actual combat.
Unless the yellow get screened in which case you need to also shoot down the rest of your bargaining power. Which means… no cease-fire and GK destroys your side.
Individual units can be targeted. And the use of screening stacks for the yellows means screening multiple units and making Wnada more vulnerable.
Of which Tram appears to have chosen your option 3. Which also lets him "interrogate" the warlord he talks to beforehand. Ossomer works well from Trams pov as it also allows him to probe a decrypted and Ossomer can verify that he has negotiated, in good faith, in similar circumstances before.
Ossomer may confirm Tram has negotiated in similar circumstances before, but if Tram insults him he will also confirm in this case Tram is just insulting you. First Ossomer has 0 authority, and even worse he doesn’t know anything more than you about GK. So Tram buts his interrogation before getting the side saving cease-fire. Oops.
Ossomer is a Warlord. What makes you think he has 0 authority? Being a GK warlord gives him all the authority he needs to negotiate for GK.
Tram also isn't insulting anyone here. He using Ossomers own words and testing/probing him and his reactions. After all...what did he say...that red and black didn't look as good on Ossomer as they did on Ansom. He asked Ossomer to turn. He reminded Ossomer of the insults he (Ossomer) used to speak about GK and probed his loyalty to Parson. Then asked to speak to Parson.
The only insults here are those Ossomer used to say about Stanley.
Oberon wrote:Trem's holding of the idiot ball has absolutely nothing to do with Parson using rules in a different and innovative manner, and everything to do with having utterly failed to do what a smart diplomat is supposed to be able to do: Communicate his intentions to his opponent.
I don't think you or anyone else has been able to show a mechanic whereby Tram could actually do this with a reasonable chance of success. He can't guarantee that Parson will accept a Thinkgram from him nor does he have anything to show that he is actually speaking true and can be believed. Simply making talking with Parson a requirement for Parley isn't guaranteed and, from the Royals rep, as far as Parson is aware (and Tram knows this) the GK force is dead anyway. Trams best chance to get through to Parson is likely to get a GK warlord to initiate the Thinkagram link. Nor is simply demanding to speak with Parson via archon any better.
And Tram wants to forge an alliance with GK to prevent his Side from falling.
Tram speculates that Charlie fears an Alliance. Tram, however, wants a non-aggression pact. Tranm doesn't want to be friends, he currently has GK at a disadvaatge, and while GK may still win the war, they may also lose the war.
In essence, Tram is going to see what he can get. Approaching GK as an equal when everything in play shwos this is not the case is simply emphasising to GK that JS really, really, really want this to work. Which weakens JSs hand in any negotiation over this. As with most negotiations, you don't want to give anythign away and you want to get the best deal you can for your side. Giving GK even the impression that this non-aggression pact is of tremendous importance to you is not a good idea.
"Fine...you want this deal so bad...surrender and we'll talk".
Tram went to the parley and seized control of that discussion from Ossomer with ease. He gave nothing away and his hand remained as strong when he asked to speak to Parson, doing so in a manner that would even strengthen some aspects of his discussion if Parson refused - "So Ossomer, your Warlord is a coward as well".
You're looking at this as some sort of diplomatic talks - its a bargaining session.
Oberon wrote:Current events appear to judge Tram's approach more harshly than you
Current events are the result of a rules exploit Tram wasn't going to anticpate.
Tram wanted to speak to Parson, and failed.
Since it was likely never going to happen thanks to Parson use of his exploit, thats a moot point.
Tram wanted to forge an alliance, and that also failed.
No...he'd have liked a non-aggression pact.
But Tram certainly didn't take the matter of the survival of his Side very seriously when it came time to open negotiations, and instead issued orders and insults like he was about to begin the typical Royal recipe of insult, then attack.
He criticised Ossomers dress, setting up who was in control from the start. Then he asked Ossomer to turn and reminded Ossomer of the insults Ossomer used to say about Stanley. As for orders...JS gave a list of preconditions that needed to be fulfilled before parley. I'd hazard a guess such a step may be universal.
Well, all I can say to that is that it is terribly convenient to simply conclude by fiat that no other approach could have had a better outcome than a failed approach. It also conveniently allows you to claim that Tram chose the very best approach possible, since any approach was going to fail just the same.
A direct approach may have worked. However, at the time that the pre parley requirements were being communicated to him...he was on his way to the portal room and his forces were simply awaiting word to begin their assault so in relaity, the direct approach probably would have failed as well.
Tram, in other words, not only needs to communicate with Parson but also ensure that he will actually talk. A request for a direct thinkagram link by itself wouldn't necessarily have altered Parson views of JSs rep.
"We've just proved we can't parley".
Further, if he is refused, that may harm Trams bargianing position because it may underline how much he wants something to happen. Too eager to buy means Parson doesn't have to give up so much.
The thing is...you are correct, to a degree. Ideally...ideally, mind you...Tram would have gotten an Archon or whatever to form a direct link to Parson and they'd be able to negotiate. But the crucuial issues are...would Parson accept such a call? Would Parson believe him? Parson has no reason to do either, especially given Royaltys rep, and Tram knows this.
I've given plenty of reasons why Tram should have known that he was under time pressure. All of them based upon Tram's own stated intentions.
The time pressures you've noted are the yellow attack....and that was a time pressure only if that was a serious threat as opposed to inconvenience. Anything else you've mentioned aren't actually time pressures. As it is, that meet and greet phase lasted...what? 30 seconds? A minute? Start to finish before Tram asked to be connected to Parson.
Oberon wrote:And again, it's really convenient to say that taking a different approach than the one that just failed would certainly also have failed.
The current parley failed because Parson had an exploit. Without that, what would have happened is that Tram would have signalled for Parley, Ossomer would have gone over, Tram would have probed him and tested his loyalty and then Tram would make the same demand to Ossomer that he did in the comic....Put me through to Parson.
At which point, instead of the yellows attacking, Ossomer would have had the choice of connecting Tram to Parson or not.
Where is Trams failure?
Smoker wrote:Also, Kyrt, I dont buy your argument that Parson not answering a call would be detrimental, which is pretty much what your objection to the thinkagram suggestion hinges on.
In that it potentially allows Parson to suggest JSs bargaining hand is weaker than it is? In that it shows JS as more eager to engage in talks and so "too eager to buy"? No...if I'm trying to get the best deal from someone, making him thinK I really, really, really want the goods is a bad idea. I may still get them, but it'll cost me more than it may otherwise have done so.
Likewise, I dont really see the point in arguing the merits of viable plan b's if the thinkagram wasn't answered, since the 6 or so suggestions I posted took about 6 or so seconds to think up. I was only illustrating the fact that there are buttloads of options you could explore if required, and I'm sure Tramennis could come up with something, being that he is the master diplomat.
He did. He went with option 3. Talk to someone else and open up a channel that way.
So Kyrt, if you could just admit the fact that there was a chance it would work, then we are well on the way to an agreement on the topic.
A dircet approach could have worked. But why should Tram risk it?
There's no reason why Tramennis would expect Parson not to be interested in a direct call. He did, as far as he was concerned, hold all the cards.
And is a Royal who have a reputation of holding parleys simply to run their opponents noses into their defeat. Parson knows this. Tram knows this. Why should Parson take a call only to have GKs defeat rubbed in? Why would he believe Tram if he says otherwise? Tranm held all the cards, but he still needed to get Parson to the table.
Once we've established that a direct call to Parson wasn't doomed for failure from the start, we then need to agree if talking to Ossomer instead of pursuing said call was the most appropriate action, but you know, baby steps.
A direct call wasn't doomed...but it was probably unlikely to be successful.
As it is, Trams operation did get him to the point where he asked for that direct link. So....that did work. Ossomer very likely would have arranged the meeting that way, JS wouldn't have had to show how eager it was for a deal and it still held the full value of its hostages. Would Parson accept that call? From one of his own warlords? Someone probably would have answered it.
Could Tram have set this up in the parley requirements phase? Sure he could. But then he'd not know if Parson would answer when he has several reasons not to.
Oberon wrote:After all of this, you're still going to claim that Erfworlders do not and should not consider off-turn actions or attacks to be significant enough to warrant some caution?
And if you've read the comics and knew about Trimancer links and so on you'd also have fair idea why these action don't really apply here. Not to mention you are still assuuming for whatever reason that Tram doesn't know KW was the result of a link when his own words suggests he does.
Oberon wrote:... while Tram's complete waste of his opportunity to communicate real terms...
Due mainly to Parsons exploit (which Tram can't know about) interrupting the talks.
Smoker wrote:I wonder if you could look at it from the other side: Are there any examples of Erfworlders (ie not Parson) doing anything productive when it is not their turn?
Yes...they all do. Off turn actions can be done. However...there are limits. WotT states that move is set to zero at turn end....so anything that spends MP is impossible. Other limitations are base on hex type and whetehr enemies are presnet.
Lamech wrote:She is clearly bound by zone restrictions. So it appears Jetstone allies are bound by the same restrictions as GK, and therefore Vanna is as well.
Yes...and one of those restrictions is that she can't cast off turn unless there are enemies in the same hex.
As long as Tram doesn't do anything to provoke GK or alter their situation he has every reason to think he has whatever his turn's time limit is (and possibly all night). But the royals are known for using parley's to insult and the RCCII is now known for using cease-fires to catch their opponent off-guard. If GK believes that Tram isn't parleying in good faith, what did Tram honestly think they would wait around for Jetstone to attack them while their defenses were down?
Given their only viable options were Sbombing via the yellows....or waiting around for JS to attack...yes. They can't leave the airspace (without Parsons exploit) so they stay there. They can't viably attack - Tram knows the dwagons capabilities - and zone boundaries provides protection. So...what other options can they do? Talk? Restack? Float around a bit? None of which changes the situation. All GK can really do is sit around and wait to die. Parson couldn't see a way around that without a messy exploit that relied on luck.