Book 2 – Page 50

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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:11 pm

Has anyone established that Trem's volley of arrows will only hit the part of the Atrium where Dupe-Wanda is? In his order, he only directs "volleys to the Atrium" and not a specific part of it. Might we see an ironic re-incapacitation of Wanda & co.?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby decius » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:24 pm

Geordy wrote:
Whispri wrote:Wanda's alive and in a moment she's going to shout "Angelic Hordes come forth!"

It wont happen. Why? Because in this case there would be no need for Parson to journey through the MK. Which according to the Predictomancer is definitely going to happen. There has been too much buildup for Parson entering the MK again, too.

Wrong. There is no reason for Parson to try to singlehandedly invade an enemy capital city. Therefore, if his strike force is destroyed, he will not go, but will defect to the magic kingdom
(There is no way Stanley the Tool will accept the mass harvesting of his precious dwagons as a valid military tactic, unless it works.) If his plan is super-effective, he keeps his gambit to himself, and doesn't go. Parson only travels via the magic kingdom if it makes a difference to the battle.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Sylvan » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:40 pm

Fug wrote:I'll renew my argument that only the weaker types of dwagons, pink, yellow and purple, cannot carry heavy riders and that the stronger types can. If there were croaked purple or pinks it is possible that they simply did not have enough hobgowins to fill them all.

[url=http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE031_ChrisBattey_ParsonPointing.png] "Yeah, but I should still be able to get on a mount, right?"
"Ummmm. Not if you're a heavy unit. Which...I think is likely." [/url] Now, Sizemore may not know if a red can carry a heavy, but I'm just saying....

Kudos to you good sir.
Sieggy wrote:Now, [a] big question is whether or not having GK forces in the Atrium permits the Archons to begin their attack. Right now, Trem and the archers are focused on the Atrium, which means they're wide open to a flanking attack . . .

I remember seeing bits of this discussion for the past couple months, but I still think it is one of the better bits of speculation out there. I personally think the text is inconclusive so far. This text update says units in any part of the garrison can attack any other part of the garrison, but it is unclear whether they extend that ability to allies in a city zone like the airspace (the text could imply it, and I kind of think it does, actually, but I think this was left deliberately vague by will of the titans).
Kyrt wrote:About the only thing I'm not sure of is whether evacuating the Atrium was smart move....it removes JS troops form the arrow storm giving the archersa freer hand, and prevents new bodies from being around to be decrypted but more bodies may have helped them get Wanda quicker.

Well, even in a hex filled with "maximum stacks of heavies and siege" a single stack was able to engage and kill a specific unit. Though it should be noted that the unit in question was most likely at the hex boundary and (probably) relatively unguarded (I find it unlikely that Princess Cruz had screening stacks in this update, for instance), and that the single stack in question was Queen Bea's set of bodyguards with her Chief Warlord.

So, I think you on on the right track in saying that more bodies in the atrium might have helped them get to Wanda quicker, and that is very, very important. I think Tramennis is more concerned with protecting as many of his troops as possible, rather than just killing Wanda. I guess it mostly depends on how easy it is for GK's troops to move from The Atrium to different portions of JS's garrison. If they are trapped in the big, open room with the roof that is halfway destroyed, they are still vulnerable to arrow fire and (maybe) tower spells. It is not very likely that they are trapped, considering that they now have a lot of siege (capable) units in the Garrison, and it is pretty clear by canon (see the most obvious link above related to this subject....) that those units will be able to attack any other part of the garrison, but still, I think we're just too hard on Tramennis in general.

Remember.....he is an admittedly inexperienced Warlord,who was used almost since his first turn for diplomacy, has spent over around six score turns on fathers diplomatic errands, and has to actively think about aspects of command and common combat rules (like the yellows being able to bomb him with acid that continues to melt you to tiny tiny bits). I do not think he is holding any idiot ball..... I think he is acting perfectly within his character. Any good chessplayer knows it is good to be five moves ahead of your opponent, better to be ten moves ahead, and best to be as many damn moves as possible ahead. Tramennis is a chessplayer with some talent, but not even the tiniest ounce of practice. At some point, I am going to make a separate thread with a timeline of this turn, but Tram has good reactions.... he just reacts to every move, rather than Parsons overall plan.

"Wait, so our forces are in range of JS archers and their casters(so they don't have to redeploy to hit stray dwagons), but over their garrison where we can pull off the gravity 'sploit(No, we can't be that lucky)?"

"Ugh. You mean to tell me that we ended their turn without their permission, Jillain tried to steal Jack on her way out, we took the time to debate whether or not we should wipe out the ground first or Wanda, with all that entailed, Hagger attacked GKs column, their CW was captured, so we stopped to discuss strategy again, then we wiped out their column , then I returned to the city (already linked twice above),had a leisurely Thinkagram with Charlie where I learned many things, continued discussing this with father, then decided to Parlay, and only then did they do the attack which was been possible ever since they've been in our city, and you think I am an utter fool for having never seen this coming?

(Now, before huge wars of flame ignite, keep in mind that time is relative in Erfworld. Yes, Tramennis has seen and done a lot on this turn in between its beginning and Parson bombing the Atrium. I think Parson has had, objectively, from an EARTHworlders perspective (possibly much) less time to respond to all of this than Tramennis. Recall the discussion of a scouting unit traveling several hexes but responding to whoever in just a few minutes. You get the intel when you get the intel. How the BOOOOOOOOP does that even work off-turn? I think any point addressing THAT will almost certainly have to go into the realm of pure speculation, though I may be wrong. In referencing the above timeline in seems to me like those dwagons could have begun bombing as soon as Parson became CW(when Tram was still outside the city, see above), but he trusted Jack's intel that the royal side would wait for a parlay and he thought that would give them enough extra time to have a giant gaping hole in the roof once the yellows were done. If Tower Defenses can be awesome enough to wipe out ten dwagons on approach, methinks they could wipe out a lot of yellows before a sufficiently-sized hole was made, unless your defenders are distracted by their "dead" brother/son.)

The tl;dr version of the above? Parson is a grandmaster of strategy games. Tramennis is an inexperienced commander who basically reacts (intelligently!) to single moves, but has no idea about his opponents "OMGWTFBBQ" plans to kick his ass. He is not holding an Idiot Ball, because he is pretty much playing the part he is supposed to. He already has GK in a bad position.... even if Wanda fully recovers in time they'll still (probably) "lose most of [them] anyways.". But reacting to one of Parson's plans as it hits you is a surefire way to get your ass thoroughly kicked...... IMHO.

Hiai wrote:Dear Rob and Xin, For many moons I have been reading this comic and loving it. The artwork has been amazing, of course, but mainly I just love the gripping story. The way we truly care about the characters. It is a great example of what every good storyteller strives for. So, with this new comic up, the last of 2010, and the grin on my face as I watch Jack cast a spell-scroll...

I just want to say thank you. I love you guys! Keep up the great work, and have a less frustrating, more productive, much healthier, and extremely prosperous 2011. Happy New Year!

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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Guppy » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:06 pm

Fug wrote:What Parson is trying with decrypting harvested units has never been tested as far as we know. Erfworld mechanics may simply take the body of something that has been harvested- even if it has been decrypted or uncroaked- and turn it into cheeseburgers.


Erfworld mechanics may also not necessarily "take the body". It's been said that after harvesting, rations simply pop next turn. What if Parson has managed to break the mechanic, and we get both a decrypted unit and a pop of rations? Now that would be game-breaking.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby GaryThunder » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:15 pm

Parson only really needs the Decrypted dwagons to stick around for the rest of Jetstone's turn/the rest of the day. It doesn't especially matter if they depop into rations at the beginning of GK's next turn - Wanda will have a city full of Decrypted Jetstone units to hold the city, regardless of whether or not the dwagons remain.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby youngstormlord » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:15 pm

I love "The Cure" reference :lol: . It was worth the wait for the shear awesomeness.

On the unrelated note, It seems Healamancy scrolls are pink and I need to change my fanfiction accordingly. Which I'll promptly do.

ETA:Small point I haven't seen mentioned before: Jack is the soldier that points "There! By the red, toward the center!"(that part is mentioned), all the while looking the same as wounded commander with one arm he pointed the "Wanda" to (Almost the same, except being healthy :twisted: ). That part wasn't mentioned.
Last edited by youngstormlord on Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Fug » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:17 pm

Sylvan wrote:
Fug wrote:I'll renew my argument that only the weaker types of dwagons, pink, yellow and purple, cannot carry heavy riders and that the stronger types can. If there were croaked purple or pinks it is possible that they simply did not have enough hobgowins to fill them all.


[url=http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE031_ChrisBattey_ParsonPointing.png]

"Yeah, but I should still be able to get on a mount, right?"
"Ummmm. Not if you're a heavy unit. Which...I think is likely."

Now, Sizemore may not know if a red can carry a heavy, but I'm just saying.... "


Thanks for being thorough. I didn't remember that and although Sizemore was technically wrong in that Parson could get on a mount (it just couldn't fly) I accept this as a pretty strong rebuttal of my argument.

To add to the rest of your post, based on previous updates I agree the archons could probably not attack into the tower off turn, even after their side was attacked otherwise JS would have been more careful. If they can whip up some defensive magics to block arrows is another question altogether through.

Finally it doesn't seem like decrypting costs Wanda any juice so she should be full and could presumably have a few casting tricks up her sleeve.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby zilfallon » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:21 pm

Fug wrote:Tinfoil hat time- Parson and survivors will retreat to the cities Jilian razed on her way home and rebuild it. Wanda will realize that fate meant her to lead her own side- since her units have their own emblem- and possibly for Parson to lead his own side since decroaked units had his emblem. A world of possibilities opens up after that.


Decrypted have Wanda's livery because Stanley lets his warlords do so.
Uncroaked at GK walls had Parson's emblem because he ordered Wanda to uncroak them so. That's not fate. And we don't know if the cities razed by Jillian are capital sites or not. They're just peripheral cities though, it is unlikely they're capitals.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Fug » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:23 pm

GaryThunder wrote:Parson only really needs the Decrypted dwagons to stick around for the rest of Jetstone's turn/the rest of the day. It doesn't especially matter if they depop into rations at the beginning of GK's next turn - Wanda will have a city full of Decrypted Jetstone units to hold the city, regardless of whether or not the dwagons remain.


Good point, assuming Jetstone doesn't simply move their troops out of the zone/hex GK is currently in which would leave them with some live or decrypted pink/purple/yellow dwagons some heavy hobgowins a few decrypted GK fall/arrow volley survivors and a few decrypted jetsone troops. From a meta point of view Rob is very good at making these battles into seesaws and this is one way I could imagine GK seeming to have an incredible advantage only to loose it suddenly, just like JS seems to have lost their sure victory :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby clik » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:24 pm

Sylvan wrote:Any good chessplayer knows it is good to be five moves ahead of your opponent, better to be ten moves ahead, and best to be as many damn moves as possible ahead. Tramennis is a chessplayer with some talent, but not even the tiniest ounce of practice. At some point, I am going to make a separate thread with a timeline of this turn, but Tram has good reactions.... he just reacts to every move, rather than Parsons overall plan.


Any good chess player knows it is extremely rare to be five moves ahead of your opponent except in most mismatched setups and absurd to be 10 or more moves ahead unless the position is very, very simple (like when your opponent has just a king and you have a king and the minimum required mating pieces). In actual games you don't look umpteen moves ahead in chess, predicting all possible moves. That's not mathematically feasible (given perhaps 20+ possible moves per side the amount of move combinations to consider for looking 5 moves out is 20^10, or 10,240,000,000,000 moves to consider). Instead you develop and set up lines of attack and zones of control.

Pardon my pet peeve, I just hate seeing bad chess metaphors.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby GaryThunder » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:28 pm

Evacuating a big area like the Atrium takes some time. Bear in mind it's been probably less than a minute since the yellows started crapping on the Atrium roof. There are still scores of Jetstone troops in there, and even if there aren't too many - we know at least there are all the dead troops that got crapped, ripe for Decrypting - Wanda has just landed her whole strike force in the garrison, minus the Archons. She has all the live dwagons that sank under the weight of the heavy Hobgobwins, all of the dead dwagons that got harvested, and (most) of the riders, either alive or Decrypted. Plus whatever Jetstone troops she has. And remember the huge bonus she gives to Decrypted troops under her command - dwagons plus leadership and Decrypted bonuses? Pretty substantial, I should think.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Fug » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:29 pm

zilfallon wrote:
Fug wrote:Tinfoil hat time- Parson and survivors will retreat to the cities Jilian razed on her way home and rebuild it. Wanda will realize that fate meant her to lead her own side- since her units have their own emblem- and possibly for Parson to lead his own side since decroaked units had his emblem. A world of possibilities opens up after that.


Decrypted have Wanda's livery because Stanley lets his warlords do so.
Uncroaked at GK walls had Parson's emblem because he ordered Wanda to uncroak them so. That's not fate. And we don't know if the cities razed by Jillian are capital sites or not. They're just peripheral cities though, it is unlikely they're capitals.


Of course there is fate and what Wanda perceives as fate. I seem to remember Stanley was unnerved by Wanda having attuned to the pliars and Maggie had to do some work to soothe his ego. I also read the decrypted having Parson's emblem as being Wanda jabbing a little at Parson i.e. he was obsolete like the uncroaked in the face of the decrypted.

Good point about the capitals. I'm a little unsure how that mechanic works.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby GaryThunder » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:31 pm

I think Wanda put Hamstard on the Jetstone Uncroaked just to piss off Ansom, specifically.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Fug » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:36 pm

I guess I am not convinced that GK is in a super strong position right now unless they can somehow avoid volley after volley of arrow.

Of course they are in a better position but JS still has a lot of resources to throw at them (although two of their casters used juice making a jetpack). I would guess it is very possible in the game mechanics for GK to win or at least to survive if they get to keep decrypted dwagons (there is no reason beside my conjecture, storytelling and the apparent fact that it hasn't been tested to suspect that they will not got to keep decrypted harvested dwagons).

Before they would have been either wiped out or survived with a few units so not a bad turn of events but I don't think they are out of the woods.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby GaryThunder » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:41 pm

The advantage GK has is Decryption. Wanda can easily get into a position where she can be protected from arrows (just get under something, an archway, anything) and Jetstone must immediately institute a 2:1 kill ratio or better, or Wanda's army grows faster than it shrinks.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Fug » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:07 pm

The decryption advantage only works if JT throws troops at them though (or if they still have significant forces on their turn and can move into different zones/hexes). JT can use their remaining tower defense to get rid of the archons and Ossomer, and arrows, scrolls and spells to attack GKs troops on the ground in the atrium.

It seems logical that GK's ground troops should be able to find shelter from arrows in the atrium but erfworld mechanics may not allow for this. I think the only cover that they could use is other living units (screening stacks). Wasn't this why the acidic BC snaked its way around to target unled stacks?

Still I can imagine they might have a way to block arrows with magic of some sort and at a minimum many more GK troops will survive than if they tried to survive in the airspace . . . but if their decrypted dwagons turn into cheeseburgers at the start of the GK turn (again a complete speculation on my part) they could find their commanding position compromised and Parson potentially stuck in JT . . . after all its comic 50 of the book . . . the first book was 150 odd pages. Guess we will have to wait and see :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby oslecamo2 » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:43 pm

So, who said that Jack couldn't do anything meaningfull with the little juice he had left? :D

I was also right on the first danger Wanda would have to face being Jetstone's ground troops, not tower volleys. Trems is again too late in reacting.

Also glad to see there's still people with brains in Jetstone's side. Kill extra-dangerous first, questions later. Shame for them Jack was still there.

Fug wrote:I guess I am not convinced that GK is in a super strong position right now unless they can somehow avoid volley after volley of arrow.

They're on the ground. Arrows in Erfworld are only an effective weapon against fliers. Against ground troops it seems to do little else but a little softening, altough lucky hits are possible as in the begginning of book 1. But then we have Caesar taking on hundreds of archers almost by himself just because he doesn't take flight, and when Ansom went to capture Ossomer, they took heavy losses from the arrows untill they landed, after wich they didn't seem to take any more significant damage.

And then, GK's forces aren't longer limited to an area. They can now charge the garrison and go into melee. At wich points any remaining archers start risking friendly fire.

Fug wrote:Before they would have been either wiped out or survived with a few units so not a bad turn of events but I don't think they are out of the woods.


Well, they aren't, but now Jetstone will be forced to face them head on, and GK has the pliers to win any direct battle of atriction. The only real obstacle left is the healmancer keeping GK's troops from dying and doll golems wich shouldn't be decrypteable.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby Kyrt » Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:04 pm

Well, even in a hex filled with "maximum stacks of heavies and siege" a single stack was able to engage and kill a specific unit.


Who, as you say, had separated themselves out to parley with them making themselves an easily identifable target. Wanda is "somewhere in that sub-zone".

So, I think you on on the right track in saying that more bodies in the atrium might have helped them get to Wanda quicker, and that is very, very important.


Possibly....but it would also mean more troops lost to friendly fire unless Tram forgot about the archers. Which means more troops for Wanda to decrypt. Its also uncertain what Tram was doing wrt the Foolamancer...was he evacuating the majority of troops on the grounds that a live Foolamancer would make any search take longer thus increasing the risk they'd be there when/if the Croakamancer decrypted the troops? Did they forget about Jack?

I think Tramennis is more concerned with protecting as many of his troops as possible, rather than just killing Wanda. I guess it mostly depends on how easy it is for GK's troops to move from The Atrium to different portions of JS's garrison.


They can attack any garrison sub-zone...I can't recall about movement.

Tram has good reactions.... he just reacts to every move, rather than Parsons overall plan.


He prepared for the likely moves and got caught out with an impossibility....to which he responded quickly....seconds in the timeline. Was there anything else he could have done? As far as I'm aware...nothing. The best he could have done was to destroy the GK force before Parson was made CWL but part of the reason they wanted to wait was to get their units back in the city so they could be wiped out. Another is that JS needs a truce of some sort.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby BCCroaker » Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:06 pm

I think part of the plan is to make Tram put Slateley in a safe place and what could be more secure than the Portal room? Parson comes through with his sword and Slateley's head and body decide on an amicable divorce and go their separate ways.
By the way, in the second to last panel, is that a red dwagon being beheaded in the background?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 50

Postby kaylasdad99 » Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:16 pm

youngstormlord wrote:On the unrelated note, It seems Healamancy scrolls are pink and I need to change my fanfiction accordingly. Which I'll promptly do.

Don't forget that the knob at the end of the scroll is white with a red cross, like a first aid kit. :lol:
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