Book 2 – Page 51

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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Smoker » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:36 am

Wanda has decrypted off turn, in (ahem) "inactive" hexes before. When she decrypted KC, for example. I've always thought of "night" as "everyone is off-turn", but maybe there are special rules for it that prevent more actions than usual.

And this is one thing thats always got me. Its generally agreed that casting off-turn is prohibited, except when there are enemies in the hex. The exception to this, is foolamancy, thinkagrams and other benign magic.

So is it really that you cant cast an offensive spell without an enemy to cast it on, or is it more there is no point?

I mean, is there an example of a caster having to wait for the turn to start in order to cast? I hope so, but I cant recall one off the top of my head. It just seems to me that the only magic you cant cast off-turn, is the only magic you never want to.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Squishalot » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:09 am

I addressed that. When she decrypted KC, she may have been able to because her hex was attacked by KC's stack.

Presumably, things like fabrication and, by association, golem making can only occur on-turn. Not everything is either benign or offensive. I'd warrant that the perfect warlord spell also required you to be on your turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Smoker » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:58 am

Squishalot wrote:I addressed that. When she decrypted KC, she may have been able to because her hex was attacked by KC's stack.

Presumably, things like fabrication and, by association, golem making can only occur on-turn. Not everything is either benign or offensive. I'd warrant that the perfect warlord spell also required you to be on your turn.


But her stack was cleared of enemy units before Wanda decrypted(?) Unless you propose that once a hex is attacked it remains "active" for a while? (Which is totally reasonable, btw)

I would still feel better about the whole thing if there was an example of a caster explicity waiting for the turn to start so s/he could cast... I'm not saying there isn't one - just I cant remember one.

Also, in terms of decryption, if the Arkentools really are tools of the titans, then it seems funny that they would be restricted to the turn of their attuned. But that's based on the Erfworld theology, so mechanically lets not go there :)

In other news, could a caster bring a level 1 marbit prisoner and a twoll along with them where-ever they went, and when they needed to cast off turn, the Marbit is released, the twoll protects the caster and the caster says "Oh goodness me! The hex is attacked! I shall now cast my knickers off!"
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Kyrt » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:36 am

Lamech wrote:Probably, but Parson would be more likely to talk to Tram if Ossomer doesn't say "After a round of insult Tram wants to talk to you." and doesn't say "Tram tried to turn me". If Tram wanted to use Ossomer as a recommendation he should have tried NOT insulting and being serious. Or simply telling Ossomer to put him through with someone in authority.


Ossomer was a warlord. He WAS someone in authority. Your argument about insults would make more sense if such displays weren't known in the real world. Tram wanted to talk to Parson. Theres a good chance Ossomer would have put him through. Getting to talk to Parson is all Tram needs Ossomer to do. Whether or not Ossomer felt insulted by Tram reminding him of his own words wouldn't affect his recommendation as to Trams truthfulness...duty would compel him to help his side.

Unless Ossomer gives some sort of recommendation there is no reason for Parson to be more likely to talk to Tram simply because he got Ossomer to play messenger boy. On the other hand if Ossomer says Tram is being insulting or tried to get him to turn Parson will be less likely to take the call and more likely to conclude the parley was in bad faith.


Ossomer can open a channel direct to Parson that Tram can use. He can and will (if asked) vouch for Trams effectiveness as a diplomat, and can confirm that in similar positions in the past he has bargained in good faith. Tram needs Ossomer to get in touch but once he has that channel, thats when the diplomacy starts. Tram can't force Parson to take the call....but getting his warlord to initiate the process has a higher chance of success than a cold call. You don't agree with Trams style, but Trams style is dictated by the fact the his side was in charge, his side was about to win a major victory, his side were about to change the entire course of this war and his side were prepared to offer a degree of mercy in exchange for some concessions. And there wasn't anything GK coulf do to change that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Squishalot » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:00 am

Smoker wrote:But her stack was cleared of enemy units before Wanda decrypted(?) Unless you propose that once a hex is attacked it remains "active" for a while? (Which is totally reasonable, btw)


Well, we don't know that technically. All we know is that KC was the one who killed Princess Cruz, and that after they fell, KC was there talking to her. We don't know the exact order but presumably, the CWL would be the primary target to be slain, not the infantry.

I would still feel better about the whole thing if there was an example of a caster explicity waiting for the turn to start so s/he could cast... I'm not saying there isn't one - just I cant remember one.


http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F144.jpg

It seems pretty clear that Wanda was waiting for the turn to start. She's been moving Ansom's body around for a while for no real reason, she exalts at the fact that it's GK's turn and then suggests that they spend the turn decrypting, implying that she couldn't prior to dawn.

Also, in terms of decryption, if the Arkentools really are tools of the titans, then it seems funny that they would be restricted to the turn of their attuned. But that's based on the Erfworld theology, so mechanically lets not go there :)


As complete speculation if the Titans were ex-players, it would almost be a game between them - "OK, it's my turn to build - aha! Top that!"

In other news, could a caster bring a level 1 marbit prisoner and a twoll along with them where-ever they went, and when they needed to cast off turn, the Marbit is released, the twoll protects the caster and the caster says "Oh goodness me! The hex is attacked! I shall now cast my knickers off!"


I bet people would want to see Wanda cast her knickers off ;)

To me that just sounds like another exploit :)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Smoker » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:10 am

Ah yeah! I remembered it differently to that - thanks for the link, Squishalot!

I'll take that as good evidence that Wanda cant decrypt at night, and since I cant remember any differences between "night" and "off-turn" anywhere else... its looking good for the End Turn argument..

And I like your Turns-of-the-Titans theory too!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Althernai » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:53 am

Squishalot wrote:I addressed that. When she decrypted KC, she may have been able to because her hex was attacked by KC's stack.

I don't think so:

The party was then croaked in seconds. As the Croakamancer set upon the bodies of our fallen units, Ansom shouted to me, chiding me sorely. Within a few minutes, all of our units were standing again, and K.C. was also shouting at me.

The Unaroyal units attacking her hex were all dead before she decrypted them.

It seems pretty clear that Wanda was waiting for the turn to start. She's been moving Ansom's body around for a while for no real reason, she exalts at the fact that it's GK's turn and then suggests that they spend the turn decrypting, implying that she couldn't prior to dawn.

It's possible, but it's far from clear. She had only moved Ansom the minimum amount necessary so that he wouldn't be standing in a hole after being decrypted. She digs him up in the last few panels here, then we have Stanley's and Jack's perspective, then she is talking to Parson and continues to move Ansom (even though the turn has already started) and then she decrypts him. The only thing that points to her being unable to decrypt off-turn is exalting in the fact that the turn has started, but she could be thinking of something else (e.g. she can now decrypt everything outside the city as well as inside).

It would be pretty weird if she can't decrypt off-turn -- decryption is not casting, it's the usage of an Arkentool.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Smoker » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:04 am

What did it for me, was the look on her face when she said "Dawn!"

I can think of no other reason why she'd be so happy about it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Willowleafs » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:05 am

It could have been her Erfworld-thinking that initially made her believe that she could only use the Arkentool on her own turn, and that she learned only later it does (or doesn't) need to be that way. That way she was happy for their turn, so she could try it. There was nothing to hold it back, like for instance some obscure fact as it not being possible off-turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby teratorn » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:51 am

Althernai wrote:The Unaroyal units attacking her hex were all dead before she decrypted them.


It could simply be a case of once a hex is invaded during a turn it is considered
active for the rest of the turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby effataigus » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:58 am

So, it sounds like folks have convinced themselves that off turn decryption in inactive hexes is not possible. I'd agree that this conclusion is implied by the characters' reactions, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out we are wrong either.

But what does this have to do with the situation at hand? If Jetstone ends turn now there will still be both JS and GK units in the Spacerock hex (drawing a distinction here between the atrium subzone of the garrison zone of the Spacerock hex and the entire hex itself).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Syal » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:39 pm

Smoker wrote:What did it for me, was the look on her face when she said "Dawn!"

I can think of no other reason why she'd be so happy about it.

Uncroaked decay and fall apart after several turns. The longer you can wait to raise them, the longer they'll last. That was before they made the first Decrypted, after all.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby wraithben » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:40 pm

If, and I still think it's a big if, Wanda can't decrypt off-turn then the end-turn will only be any good if Jetstone get all of their troops out of the Atrium first. Any who are left behind will be without leadership and forced to attack Wanda's forces, therefore keeping the hex active. All GK need to do is not kill some of them and Wanda still get's to decrypt everything.

However it still appears to me that the Decrypting of KC happened off turn and I'm not convinced by the hex stays active till end of turn thing myself - not sure why, just doesn't seem to ring true to me.

Thinking about book 1, Jillian split from alliance with Jetstone, as did TV and then allianced with TV to allow them to go earlier in the turn - this suggests that it could be the lowest allied side turn that the whole alliance takes, otherwise it would have made sense for TV to be made nominal head of the original alliance, with Ansom still deciding strategy, to allow the whole original alliance to go earlier in the turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby effataigus » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:52 pm

Syal wrote:Uncroaked decay and fall apart after several turns. The longer you can wait to raise them, the longer they'll last. That was before they made the first Decrypted, after all.


This is a really good point! Certainty in off-turn decryption being forbidden just dropped from 80% to 50%.

wraithben wrote:If, and I still think it's a big if, Wanda can't decrypt off-turn then the end-turn will only be any good if Jetstone get all of their troops out of the Atrium first. Any who are left behind will be without leadership and forced to attack Wanda's forces, therefore keeping the hex active. All GK need to do is not kill some of them and Wanda still get's to decrypt everything.

I believe you are confusing zone and hex.

The requirement that there be enemies in the same hex appears to be met by enemies in a different zone or subzone as is evidenced by Jack casting the Foghat when there were no enemy troops in the airspace with him.

... and to head off a likely response before it comes, yes, foolmancy is forbidden off turn in inactive hexes. From Word of the Titans:

Why could Parson not have ordered a veil to be cast, even if the Foolamancer had been in the group with the wounded dwagons? It was not his turn, and they were not under attack. Once Jillian entered the hex, a theoretical Foolamancer within that hex could have veiled, but it wouldn't have been very effective at fooling her.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Kyrt » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:15 pm

wraithben wrote:If, and I still think it's a big if, Wanda can't decrypt off-turn


Wanda can decrypt off turn.

"Found leadership" being the latest example.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby kagato23 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:18 pm

wraithben wrote:If, and I still think it's a big if, Wanda can't decrypt off-turn then the end-turn will only be any good if Jetstone get all of their troops out of the Atrium first. Any who are left behind will be without leadership and forced to attack Wanda's forces, therefore keeping the hex active. All GK need to do is not kill some of them and Wanda still get's to decrypt everything.

However it still appears to me that the Decrypting of KC happened off turn and I'm not convinced by the hex stays active till end of turn thing myself - not sure why, just doesn't seem to ring true to me.

Thinking about book 1, Jillian split from alliance with Jetstone, as did TV and then allied with TV to allow them to go earlier in the turn - this suggests that it could be the lowest allied side turn that the whole alliance takes, otherwise it would have made sense for TV to be made nominal head of the original alliance, with Ansom still deciding strategy, to allow the whole original alliance to go earlier in the turn.


I'm not even sure if that'd do it. The hex itself is going to remain active, I'm pretty sure city zones don't become separate hex's, but rather just determine if you need move or not. And even that only counts for going and and out of the garrison, which they've already done. The hex itself will be active, so the only consideration here is if it is or is not possible to cast at night.

One other thing we have to go back to (and lets please not waste 10 pages on it) is how kingsworld works. Does GK get the rest of it's turn back when this is done? Lets assume not, since if that's true the question is answered anyway. If instead Jetstone's turn ends, then everybody's turn is done for the day, and it is effectively "night".

We know that uncroaking can be done at night. Now, everything we've seen so far shows Decrypting works the same as uncroaking, except in ways that it is exceptionally better [get a better, more capable unit that doesn't decay, no juice expenditure, extra classes decryptable]. It's thus reasonably unlikely that in this one aspect, it'd actually be weaker, yes? So if you can uncroak at night, I'm betting you can decrypt. So ending turn does nothing for Jetstone. I'd guess that any unled units do still have to attack (I'd actually bet a defending side ending the turn with an active garrizon zone is unprecedented, so it'd be hard to say. It could also be that they might not be able to end the turn), though if not, they will at the least be impotent. Either way, all Jetstone gains by ending turn now is an up close demonstration of what decrypting looks like.

While he's not as smart as his son in many ways, Slately probably has the right idea again. At this point, a zerg rush is probably the best bet after the ruler is secured. Finish the arrow spam, fry any units that are still in the air, and then pour in troops from every direction, including the sky. Everybody focus on the caster, which is probably hard to screen for from at least 2 directions at the same time (3 if there's viable forces in the outer wall zone). With a healomancer to help keep your own troops going longer, and a clothmancer for the golems they could probably smack down Wanda herself and/or leave her with too few troops to effectively ward off the assault while replenishing. As is, their force advantage is probably going to tilt too far in GK's favor very shortly and make this plan less viable. Not to mention what happens if there's nothing in the dungeon... (though to be fair, nobody's going to see that coming. Even if Trem's thinking about Parson's strange ability he couldn't possibly account for the number of people actually invested in LETTING Parson get to his side's portal)

It occurs to me that had Adam received no orders, his plan might have won this. Had everybody stayed in the atrium and started stabbing anything that fell on them, they'd obviously take casualties but probably would have croaked Wanda before Jack could have helped her. Assuming Jack wasn't also immediately introduced to pointy death before he could veil.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Vreejack » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:00 pm

Atomic wrote:My only issue is where the Black Dwagons have gone during this siege. I hope they haven't been RetCon'd out!

It's a powerful spell. I've already forgotten what you were asking.
Atomic wrote:As far as Adam's arm; I'd like to think it'll regrow. From the impression the Summer Intermission gave us with Wrigley, I was one to think of the prisoners as being beheaded, one-by-one. Although, I'll be the first to admit it might add a bit of a twist to things if Adam comes back with only one arm. I could see, because of his uselessness, him being assigned to Parson over the upcoming turns. Adam functioned well with Tramennis, so I can only imagine he'd work well alongside Parson. Of course, my hope is that Tramennis is Decrypted before the end of the battle, but that's just because I want him on our team. Well, I mean, Gobwin Knob's team, not our team. He already appears like he's on our team in that manner, but whatever.

My observation: It would be rather useless for the decrypted to keep the injuries they had when they died, as that would mean they were already dead. The act of decryption seems to heal a unit in a way similar to the same result you would have obtained at dawn. That's not to say that a gross physical change won't have some manifest signamancy in the decrypted, but as far as we have seen they all appear perfect.
Atomic wrote:Question for all you black-horse-rs out there: If I were to examine every breed of penguin on the planet, say that "penguins cannot fly", then write a book on it...would I be wrong if, ten years down the road, a flying penguin appears? I honestly don't have a side on it and I'm not trying to play devils advocate or anything; I'm just wondering where the relativity of truth, verses knowledge, comes into play with the different opinions out there.
Penguins possess a grue/bleen property called "fwight" which allows them to be flightless or flight-capable depending on when their species is discovered. Any penguin species discovered before about 45 million years ago was flight-capable, but since then then all the discoveries have been flightless. Who's to say their won't be another date and another property inflection? Unfortunately, I am unable to tell you what discoveries will be made in the future, even as soon as next week.
Atomic wrote:Also... Regardless of night, we have no way of knowing whether or not the lights turn off when Jetstone ends turn. In addition, Casting has nothing to do with being 'engaged' or not. If it's not your turn, the only other prerequisite we've seen is that an enemy is in the same hex... It'd be silly to assume that because an enemy isn't attacking you you can't cast. The use of Kingworld was off-turn, yet usable (like a dozen other spells we've seen) because an enemy was in the hex at the time of casting... If Wanda were unable to cast in what I'm gonna call an "Active Hex" (Ace is rolling over in his grace right now), this would be the first instance I'd be genuinely upset with Rob. It'd be a total Du Ex Machina for Charlie and contrast everything we've seen so far... But whatever. Ce La Vie.

Aside from Parson's one comment in book 1: "You can only cast on your turn," we have seen no reason to believe it is true. We do not know the context for his statement and it might have been a major misunderstanding on his part. Maybe they could not cast one specific spell at that time (a veil) because there was no way to move a foolamancer to the target hex hex off-turn. But is there any example of a necessary spell that could not be cast because of turn?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby teratorn » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:57 pm

Vreejack wrote: Any penguin species discovered before about 45 million years ago was flight-capable, but since then then all the discoveries have been flightless.


Waimanu manneringi was flightless and lived 61.6 million years ago.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby name lips » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:59 pm

Smoker wrote:
Squishalot wrote:In other news, could a caster bring a level 1 marbit prisoner and a twoll along with them where-ever they went, and when they needed to cast off turn, the Marbit is released, the twoll protects the caster and the caster says "Oh goodness me! The hex is attacked! I shall now cast my knickers off!"

Now I want to see this happen.

What if you had a unit with regeneration, and an enemy unit with regeneration. Say (like good old D&D trolls) they could only be killed with a special kind of attack (like fire) which neither of them had access to.

Then lock them in a cage together.

Boom, perpetual combat in the hex! Unlimited off-turn casting, forever!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Angband » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:11 pm

Syal wrote:Uncroaked decay and fall apart after several turns. The longer you can wait to raise them, the longer they'll last. That was before they made the first Decrypted, after all.


Sorry, that's not right.

The more time and attention a croakamancer can spend uncroaking a unit, the more powerful it will be and the longer it will last. It has nothing to do with how long the body "ripens" before uncroaking.
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