Book 2 – Page 51

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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Oberon » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:00 pm

Dr Pepper wrote:Ok, i went to my bathroom and spoke to the sasquatch. He can cross hexes off turn, btw, but only while riding a black horse. He says that Wanda couldn't decrypt that first time until GK's turn started because she couldn't complete her attuning until it started. Since then being fully attuned, she can decrypt anytime. Then he stole my deodorant to sell to the martians.
Those damn, dirty apes!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Angband » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:31 pm

Oberon wrote:That does not necessarily follow. If he can only teleport from his city, then units in the field have to cross airspace and get shot at. If he can't teleport into a city (not a limitation I cited, but likely even if he can teleport them) then they have to cross the airspace and get shot at. If he is trying to hide this ability (which tends to be contradicted the the possible appearance of the angels above the Jetstone forces), then he may simply choose to let them cross an airspace and be shot at. There is still plenty of fodder to chew here, without wandering off into the realm of pure invention.


Sorry Oberon, we know from canon that Charlie preemptively positions his archons near hotspots so they can be hired. "At the time they had been decrypted, a little over six hundred Archons. About eighty percent of these were out in the field, either serving clients or standing by to be hired near hotspots."

Furthermore, we know that Jillian's force travelled to Spacerock with cloaked Archons accompanying them. "Charlie didn't want either side knowing he had significant forces in the battlespace."

Those Archons "appearing" over the Jetstone forces (uhhh, did you mean to say Haggar forces?) just flew in there under veil.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Oberon » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:25 pm

Angband wrote:Sorry Oberon, we know from canon that Charlie preemptively positions his archons near hotspots so they can be hired. "At the time they had been decrypted, a little over six hundred Archons. About eighty percent of these were out in the field, either serving clients or standing by to be hired near hotspots."
Sure, and I said as much. But having 80ish archons out of 480 within one turn of GK seems a bit much. Charlie couldn't count on Ansom hiring them, and in fact Ansom had already turned down a contract to hire some. And Charlie can't earn revenue from another Side if they are all just floating around GK waiting to be hired out. And it would make it very difficult for Charlie to rent out his archons if he had only, say, 5 near some potential customer and that customer contacted Charlie and said they wanted 15.
Charlie:"Um, I can rent you 5 now. The other 10 will take 4 turns to get there."
Customer: "Meh, nevermind then."
Teleportation makes his business model much easier to manage.
Angband wrote:Those Archons "appearing" over the Jetstone forces (uhhh, did you mean to say Haggar forces?) just flew in there under veil.
No, I said RCC forces, from way back in Book 1. In panel one the angels were shown to be in rocky, perhaps mountainous terrain, just like Charlie's sole city, and then they were suddenly over the RCC forces. There was no "in flight / in motion" indication from the art, as we have seen in the past with archons. They were "just there."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby DoctorJest » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:43 pm

Oberon wrote:
Angband wrote:Sorry Oberon, we know from canon that Charlie preemptively positions his archons near hotspots so they can be hired. "At the time they had been decrypted, a little over six hundred Archons. About eighty percent of these were out in the field, either serving clients or standing by to be hired near hotspots."
Sure, and I said as much. But having 80ish archons out of 480 within one turn of GK seems a bit much.


How many would YOU send to the Great Western Conflict? I think I'd send alot. Seems like a worthwhile place to send them, wouldn't you think?

Teleportation makes his business model much easier to manage.


No doubt. Teleportation would make my personal business model easier to manage too. But damn that whole "it's impossible" thing getting in the way.

Angband wrote:Those Archons "appearing" over the Jetstone forces (uhhh, did you mean to say Haggar forces?) just flew in there under veil.
No, I said RCC forces, from way back in Book 1. In panel one the angels were shown to be in rocky, perhaps mountainous terrain, just like Charlie's sole city, and then they were suddenly over the RCC forces. There was no "in flight / in motion" indication from the art, as we have seen in the past with archons. They were "just there."[/quote]

That's not how it looks to me, looks more like they're arriving from above. And the whole thing seems like it's meant to be a "Charlie's Archons" opening credits montage anyways, to play on the whole pop culture reference. I really think you're seeing dragons in windmills.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby fractal » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:54 pm

Oberon wrote:
Angband wrote:Sorry Oberon, we know from canon that Charlie preemptively positions his archons near hotspots so they can be hired. "At the time they had been decrypted, a little over six hundred Archons. About eighty percent of these were out in the field, either serving clients or standing by to be hired near hotspots."
Sure, and I said as much. But having 80ish archons out of 480 within one turn of GK seems a bit much. Charlie couldn't count on Ansom hiring them, and in fact Ansom had already turned down a contract to hire some. And Charlie can't earn revenue from another Side if they are all just floating around GK waiting to be hired out. And it would make it very difficult for Charlie to rent out his archons if he had only, say, 5 near some potential customer and that customer contacted Charlie and said they wanted 15.
Charlie:"Um, I can rent you 5 now. The other 10 will take 4 turns to get there."
Customer: "Meh, nevermind then."
Teleportation makes his business model much easier to manage.

Teleportation would obviously be awesome for anyone, but it does require a new power we haven't seen that isn't necessary for the actions we've seen.

Why do you think Charlie had 80 archons near GK? We only see about 30.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Carne » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:56 pm

DoctorJest wrote:How many would YOU send to the Great Western Conflict? I think I'd send alot. Seems like a worthwhile place to send them, wouldn't you think?


Especially since it's a conflict that had seen back-and-forth ownership of several cities, has probably dragged on for dozens if not scores of turns. A likely place that at least SOMEone might want to hire Archons. Perhaps not GK or the RCC, but neighboring sides looking to bolster defenses, or take advantage of the chaos to invade their neighbors.

Definitely seems like good business sense to me.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby ryanroyce » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:04 pm

Oberon wrote:
Angband wrote:Those Archons "appearing" over the Jetstone forces (uhhh, did you mean to say Haggar forces?) just flew in there under veil.
No, I said RCC forces, from way back in Book 1. In panel one the angels were shown to be in rocky, perhaps mountainous terrain, just like Charlie's sole city, and then they were suddenly over the RCC forces. There was no "in flight / in motion" indication from the art, as we have seen in the past with archons. They were "just there."


Not just like Charlie's city. Charlie's location appears alpine while the Archons' appears arid. It would make sense for any Archons in the field to "make camp" in the most hard-to-reach hex they can find, to limit their chances of being stumbled upon. A narrow ledge on the side of a desert mountain seems like an ideal location for that sort of thing.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby teratorn » Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:46 pm

During book one I also thought archons could be sent directly via disk. But the fact that Charlie stations them near hotspots argues against that. Why would Charlie keep them vulnerable in the field when he can send them just when they are needed?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby MarbitChow » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:28 pm

teratorn wrote:During book one I also thought archons could be sent directly via disk. But the fact that Charlie stations them near hotspots argues against that. Why would Charlie keep them vulnerable in the field when he can send them just when they are needed?

I can think of a couple of reasons why.

1) Cost. Teleportation may cost shmuckers / juice / whatever, whereas flying to the destination is free.
2) Limited target hex. Perhaps he can only designate a single location each turn as a destination, and teleport any unit he controls to that hex.

In either of the above cases, he keeps the teleportation for emergency use only, such as if his city is attacked, or he sees an extremely high-value / low risk target.

Note that I don't actually think he's got the ability - the Book 1, Pg. 42 link seems like a montage to me - but keeping units out in the field isn't a compelling argument against him having it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Hiai » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:54 pm

Oberon wrote:
teratorn wrote:Charlie can't teleport archons, he had to cross GK's airspace and got his units shot. He wouldn't need to if he could teleport them.
That does not necessarily follow. If he can only teleport from his city, then units in the field have to cross airspace and get shot at. If he can't teleport into a city (not a limitation I cited, but likely even if he can teleport them) then they have to cross the airspace and get shot at. If he is trying to hide this ability (which tends to be contradicted the the possible appearance of the angels above the Jetstone forces), then he may simply choose to let them cross an airspace and be shot at. There is still plenty of fodder to chew here, without wandering off into the realm of pure invention.

(bold added by me)

Sorry, Oberon. Teratorn couldn't wander off into the realm of pure invention, because YOU already did it for him. Coming up with the completely unsupported theory that Charlie might be able to teleport his troops, then defending the theory against all those who point the quite obvious contraindications of the possibility, is much more into the realm of pure invention than Teratorn ever ventured. You're tilting at windmills, here. Every single instance of Charlie having significant numbers of Archons is completely and easily explainable by the timing and local events, so coming up with this "No, really, Charlie is a Titan!"-type theory to add to the many similar ones we've seen in the forums sounds suspiciously like a deliberate troll.

I only hope that your ulterior motive for it was the altruistic desire to spare us all from diverting once more into the atrocious realm of "Tram the idiot ball carrier" debates.

And, for those of you STILL debating about whether casting can be done off-turn: Are you reading the same webcomic I'm reading? Holy cow there's soooooo many instances of casting being done off-turn in the pages and implied in the text, etc., how can this even come up as a question? One argument seems to be, in essence, "Wanda looked happy that one time". Seriously, that's where the "doubt" springs from? All caster limitations we have seen incomic to date have been easily and naturally attributable to A. Lack of Move. or B. Out of juice. You guys are coming up with these theories just to keep me from getting any work done, aren't you?? lol
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Oberon » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:21 pm

DoctorJest wrote:How many would YOU send to the Great Western Conflict? I think I'd send alot. Seems like a worthwhile place to send them, wouldn't you think?
Well, of course that makes sense. But only to a point. Until Ansom was in dire straits and signed the "Changes have been made to the contract. Touch "Agree" to accept them. You are also free to touch "I do not agree."" screw job contract, the sum total of the archons Charlie had hired out to the RCC was three. And again, Ansom had already refused that contract at some earlier point. So while it may be smart to have resources hanging hoping for employment, there is a point at which it is no longer smart as they might be able to be employed elsewhere. And 80ish archons seems like a huge number to leave hanging around when you've been refused already and when only three had been hired previously. Remember, the RCC was coming with 25:1 odds. There was no business reason to conclude that this force would be interested in hiring any additional forces. They didn't even need the three they hired, Ansom just wanted to look out for Jillian because he was in love with her, and love made him invest the unnecessary expense. Some other barbarian warlord would have been left to live or die without any additional help from the RCC or Ansom.
DoctorJest wrote:Teleportation would make my personal business model easier to manage too. But damn that whole "it's impossible" thing getting in the way.
That's a fine statement, until you realize that magic is also impossible and is a integral part of this setting. There is no reason at all to assume that teleportation can not occur in the Erfworld magic system of casters, caster links, magic items, and artifacts of power.
Hiai wrote:Sorry, Oberon. Teratorn couldn't wander off into the realm of pure invention, because YOU already did it for him. Coming up with the completely unsupported theory [...]
That fine, you don't have to agree with me. But please don't claim that my suggesting the possibility is "completely unsupported", because I never toss out a theory without support. You also don't have to agree that the support is enough to draw a conclusion from, but you cannot say that I did not provide that support.

And please, calling me a troll after putting ridiculous words in my mouth that I never uttered? Who is calling who a troll? Laughable.
Hiai wrote:That thing that you didn't say makes you sound like a deliberate troll.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby teratorn » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:59 pm

Hiai wrote:Sorry, Oberon. Teratorn couldn't wander off into the realm of pure invention, because YOU already did it for him. Coming up with the completely unsupported theory that Charlie might be able to teleport his troops,


To be fair, I came into the forums with a similar theory a long time ago so Oberon didn't do it for me, I'm as guilty of a «completely unsupported theory» as he is. This particular argument with Oberon was on the disk teleportation being at most one way, since Charlie was willing to pay for being allowed to cross GK's airspace. It doesn't make much sense if he were able to retrieve them with the dish.

It's not completely unsupported. We do know something similar to teleportation exists in Erfworld, that's what the portals do. Matter can be transmitted from point A to point B without crossing the hexes in between. We can't exclude the dish being able to send units, but retrieving them seems unlikely. I sort of gave up on the dish transmitting units after we learned that Charlie kept groups of archons near hotspots waiting to be hired. If it were so simple to send units I'd rather keep them in my city, protecting my back unless they were making money.

We also know objects from other worlds can be teleported into Erfworld, so in-Erfworld teleportation should also be possible and within the framework of same mancer class.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Lamech » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:00 am

Tetron is correct. If could retrive units via dish he wouldn't have flew over. If he could send units via dish he wouldn't station archons at hotspots. And if it was standard operating procedure (SOP), the archons would have told Parson about it. More importantly if those archons got teleported they would have told Parson about it.

Now Charlie might want this ablity a secret, and might only use it sparingly, or it might be very dificult. But at the very least the archons that at GK did not teleport; (since otherwise they would have told Parson.) And Charlie has pre-stationed the archons in book 2. So we have not seen any use of teleportation by Charlie in the story so far. And therefore have no evidence that that is a power of the dish.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Smoker » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:01 am

Having buttloads of Archons stationed near GK may not have been as crazy as it seems.

I believe at some point, Charlie bit on the Arkenpliers bait reasonably hard in a negotiation with Parson.

It is possible that he was hoping to catch either the 'pliers or the 'hammer in a lightly defended stack, such that he could steal them. Many of his archons have foolamancy specials, so its possible he could have attacked a stack (either GK or JS) and escaped with the Arkentool(s) with no witnesses.

So if he had ten stacks of eight archons (or whatever) spread around the conflict for this purpose... well, I'd see his point. He's made an absolute killing from the Tool that he already has - it'd be worth an investment in trying to snag one - maybe two.

Of course he'd need to find someone to attune to them, but hey, baby steps.

On the other hand, he DID have a chance to ambush Stanley at the pass, in which case he might have snagged the hammer - interesting that he valued Parson's mathamancy over this. Still, not taking that particular chance to grab it doesn't mean he still didn't want it at a later date (ie after capturing Parson). He plays his cards very carefully, does our Charlie.

Anyway, I'm not pitching this for or against anything, just chucking it out there.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby drachefly » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:59 am

Even if outward teleportation is possible, free, and multi-destination on the same turn, you could want to station your archons near hotspots.

After all, if the time it would take to get home is longer than the time it would take to get to their next job, teleportation would be the slow route.

That said, I see no specific evidence that Charlie can do it, only the general plausibility considerations Lamech outlined shortly above.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Oberon » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:26 pm

Lamech wrote:If he [Charlie] could send units via dish he wouldn't station archons at hotspots. And if it was standard operating procedure (SOP), the archons would have told Parson about it. More importantly if those archons got teleported they would have told Parson about it.
Except that archons stationed in hot spots gather valuable intelligence, such as identifying capital cities (Haggar) which are woefully under-defended. And this intelligence allows Charlie to either bluff or just outright force other Sides to do things you want them to do. Depending on whether you believe that Charlie had enough forces near Haggar to actually take the capital out, or had a single veiled archon reporting on their force disposition, this is either a clever bluff or a position of strength which can not be gainsaid. Sammy sure wasn't willing to test the theory.
Lamech wrote:So we have not seen any use of teleportation by Charlie in the story so far. And therefore have no evidence that that is a power of the dish.
Not directly. But as I said, I certainly got that impression from the first strip in which the archons appeared. And while Charlie's ability to have as many archons as he needs, where he needs them may either be a plot necessity or enabled by his modus operandi of stashing archons near "hot spots", it is also satisfied by teleportation.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby oslecamo2 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:54 pm

Oberron wrote:
So we have not seen any use of teleportation by Charlie in the story so far. And therefore have no evidence that that is a power of the dish.
Not directly. But as I said, I certainly got that impression from the first strip in which the archons appeared. And while Charlie's ability to have as many archons as he needs, where he needs them may either be a plot necessity or enabled by his modus operandi of stashing archons near "hot spots", it is also satisfied by teleportation.


There's a lot of stuff that could be satisfied by teleportation in a static-panel comic. Luckily, we have a lot of events that cannot be satisfied by teleportation, and wich you've been avoding so far:

1-During book 1 Charlie at no moment just teleports inside GK's Garrison (instead of the undefended airspace), takes Hamster's gauntlet and calls it a day. Neither do his archons manage to move from airspace to groundspace to support Jetstone. And they're also unable to teleport away to escape the nuke. Charlie can just watch in horror as his archons are reduced to burned corpses, quite strange if they could just teleport out of there don't you think?
2-Charlie later loses yet more archons intercepted by GK's forces in the open field (summer update). Charlie then asks Hamster how much he would need to pay for a "safe passage" trough that territorry, wich wasn't even near the capital (so not for intelegence). Why would he ask that if he could just teleport over GK's territorry?
3-Finally, the decrypted archons say NOTHING about any teleportation. They tell important numbers, Charlie's location and defenses, but they say nothing that archons can teleport around.
4-Hamster also never mentions it. If Charlie could teleport, Hamster certainly would've at least spent some comic-time thinking about the implications, because he was present when the Archons "popped"

In short, it can all be explained with archons veiling powers. And we've confirmed several times archons have natural veiling powers. We have not a single character stating that archons can teleport, including but not limited to the archons themselves when under carefull Hamster interrogation.

Really, you may as well claim Charlie is omnipotent, but let his archons be barbecued and later intercepted in-route just for the lulz.

EDIT: And the relevant test, a rare case of Charlie almost begging:
CharlsNChrg: About this morning, Parson...
LordHamster: Yeah. About that.
CharlsNChrg: Is that how it's going to be?
LordHamster: For the record, I didn't order it.
LordHamster: But yeah, I think it's safe to say that anything you stick in our battlespace is going to get cut off.
LordHamster: So be careful what you're sticking, and where.
CharlsNChrg: Fair enough.
CharlsNChrg: What would it cost me for permission to pass through?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Afjord » Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:09 pm

Although the thought of teleporting Archons humor me, and especially the implications it would have, I must say that, as far as i'm concerned, charlie does not have any means of teleporting his troops. But, just to stay neutral, why don't we all agree on the following: He (charlie) had a teleportation scroll, which he used to teleport his archons with in the first book. Happy?

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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Beeskee » Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:53 pm

I think they just flew there.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Oberon » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:19 pm

oslecamo2 wrote:There's a lot of stuff that could be satisfied by teleportation in a static-panel comic.
Many or most of the panels in which we see archons moving, it is clear that they are moving. This first appearance gives no indication of movement, just hovering in place. Not proof of anything, but as I've said it sure gave me the impression that they just appeared.
oslecamo2 wrote:Luckily, we have a lot of events that cannot be satisfied by teleportation, and wich you've been avoding so far:
Come on... Does it really require the sideways insulting tone insinuating that I'm avoiding all the best arguments against my harebrained theory? You can do much better than that... I've avoided nothing, and either I or others have already answered all of your points previously. Shall I insinuate that you are deliberately avoiding any recognition of those contrary positions? Why would I expect that this would win any support for my position? Why would you?
oslecamo2 wrote:1-During book 1 Charlie at no moment just teleports inside GK's Garrison (instead of the undefended airspace), takes Hamster's gauntlet and calls it a day.
Not being able to teleport into a city, this would be a reasonable limitation on the power to teleport your units. The rest of your point 1 and point 2 and the "pass through GK territory" discussion is covered by the "can transmit only" highly plausible limitation.
oslecamo2 wrote:3-Finally, the decrypted archons say NOTHING about any teleportation. They tell important numbers, Charlie's location and defenses, but they say nothing that archons can teleport around.
They do not have that capability. Charlie/arkendish does. I think that it is pretty clear that either the archons were not entirely forthcoming or for purposes of plot Parson was too intimidated by all those tiny playboy bunnies to spend enough time, er, pumping them for information as we could have expected him to do.
oslecamo2 wrote:4-Hamster also never mentions it. If Charlie could teleport, Hamster certainly would've at least spent some comic-time thinking about the implications, because he was present when the Archons "popped"
Who? Hamstard, the little devil on Parson shoulder? You don't get original thought out of your imaginary friend...
oslecamo2 wrote:In short, it can all be explained with archons veiling powers. And we've confirmed several times archons have natural veiling powers. We have not a single character stating that archons can teleport, including but not limited to the archons themselves when under carefull Hamster interrogation.
Not so careful, as supported by the strip. Parson was intimidated, and this may have overcome his natural inclination to collect as much intel as he could. Also, the archons themselves treated their relationship with Parson as if he were a "full services" customer of Charlie. This "full service" may easily be limited to sex and unthinking charges into certain death, as was described about most contracts with those terms. It almost certainly does not include "tell the guy who is going to rape you and then send you to die as many of my secrets as you might know."

Additionally, only archons with the foolamancy special can veil. And this strongly appears to be a single target effect, as outlined in the strip with the archons spying on the Haggar forces:
Book 2 Text 18 wrote:Lindsay and Paris ended turn at the head of the column, Miley and Brittany at the rear. Hilary and her partner Avril took up a risky blind, directly over the heads of Prince Sammy's leadership stack. They kept the rising sun at their backs, relative to the warlords, and spent most of their juice to shine out their shadows. It was tricky, but worth it.
They spent most of their juice. Not one foolamancer capable archon keeping the entire stack veiled. And it nearly drained each one just to veil themselves.

It's vaguely plausible that Charlie had 80ish archons within a single turn's flight of GK. Vaguely, but not logically. As discussed before, he had only managed to hire out three archons to the RCC previously, and those were a love gift of Ansom looking out for Jillian, and not really needed otherwise. Charlie had been turned down by the RCC on a second contract. Charlie could hardly have imagined that Ansom would try to assault the uncroaked on the walls alone and get into a position where he was forced into hiring more archons, that was a stupid maneuver. And the RCC had a 25:1 advantage, and the remainder of their siege was only a single turn away. They needed no help, there is no logic present in any expectation of Charlie to hire out more archons to the RCC, and there were surely profits to be made elsewhere.

But for the sake of argument, Charlie had 80ish archons within a single turn's flight of GK. And they all had the foolamancy special? Really, now Charlie is just bat-crazy-prepared... It is simply implausible to me to consider that of Charlie's 600 archons that he had 80ish foolamancy capable units within a single turn's flight of GK. For why? It makes no sense. Even if Charlie illogically for reasons explained above expected to be able to hire out more archons to the RCC, he didn't need to concentrate many/all of the foolamancy capable ones near GK. The RCC knew he was a potential mercenary for them, and GK knew he was a potential mercenary against them. No veiling required under these circumstances. So, why?

Let me be clear: I'm not claiming that this is a done deal, proven and unassailable. It isn't. We have only speculation to kick around the forums, not hard supporting facts. It is my belief that this capability makes sense, based upon what I believe are logical facts and observations. But only in a hypothetical sense. I'm not claiming that it must be so. It could be revealed to be wrong, and I'd be ok with that. But if so, I'd like to have some of the illogical circumstances for the case where Charlie does not have this ability explained in better detail. I just don't see much in the way of alternative logical explanations that work with the information currently available which makes any sense. The ability for the arkendish to teleport units, at least from Charlie's sole city, does make that sense, given the other details.
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