Book 2 - Text Updates 039

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Krennson » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:47 am

CNagy wrote:That doesn't prove it at all, though. It only proves that different bonuses stack. Transylvito actually provides evidence to the contrary in its fight with Stanley in the form of Caesar's bats, which get his full bonus (chief warlord plus chief warlord in the hex bonus plus Caesar's leadership bonus) and in the process shows that those are distinct bonuses. In Ansom's case, we know what his Warlord effects are: +3 to all units, +2 (total +5) to units in his hex, and +5 (total +10) to units in his stack. Wanda's rules are bit a murkier, given her unique case, but we do know there is an Artifact bonus in play and we can assume that her status as Chief Croakamancer (as it is specifically mentioned) provides a bonus to uncroaked/decrypted (we don't know how much or how far it extends, but if it is an area affect then we must assume the local effect is greater.)

Anyway, the summer update does prove that stacks can be co-led. It says in plain language that Ansom is leading a stack of 6 heavies with Wanda. That does not give evidence that warlord bonuses stack, since the source of the bonus is different (warlord + caster as opposed to warlord + warlord). While I don't believe we have seen any solid, conclusive evidence one way or the other, I personally believe that warlord bonuses do not stack--for the simple reason that, if they did, Parson would have mentioned it as he was learning the rules of the game and he would have tried to seek some sort of exploit by it. When he does mention piling on bonuses, he rattles off a series of bonus types.


As nearly as I can tell, a Chief warlord gives +(25% of level) to all units on his side, +(50% of level) to all units in his hex, and (+level) to all units in his stack, non-cumalitive. Apparently you round up if the bonus is a decimal.

If chief croakamancer, Wanda, provides a similiar bonus to all decrypted units, that would nicely balance the penalty for having a second-level chief warlord.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Radagast » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:45 am

Can someone link me to where we found out Wanda was Level 7? I don't recall seeing that.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby drachefly » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:07 pm

Oberon wrote:I mean fascism in the dictionary sense, and not in the pejorative sense that it is often used today. Fascism by itself is not a bad thing, just as communism or socialism by themselves are not bad things. The problem with any of these systems is the corruption that they are very weak against and highly subject to. It is these weaknesses which are the stereotype that these systems are painted with, and not their strengths.


There are several problems with this. First of all, there is no one dictionary sense of fascism. This is largely because of a paucity of concrete examples, which is compounded by contradiction in tenets among the proponents, and at times even among different statements by the same proponent (good luck getting a consistent definition out of Mussolini, for example).

The more topical problem is, I am talking about the philosophical basis. Fascism is based on subsuming the individual will to the collective. Deviance is unacceptable. The idea of the state wronging an individual in it is meaningless under the system. Introspection is sharply curtailed. These are some of the few conserved elements to Fascism

Already it's in a ton of trouble, and we haven't gotten to implementation details yet.

Vreejack wrote:... modern arrow heads are usually made so that centimeter for centimeter they have the same linear density as the shaft, which means they also have the same skin drag for their mass as the rest of the arrow. ...


Only if they are the same shape. While target-practice arrowheads may be the same shape as the shaft, this is not so of arrows for combat or hunting.

Vreejack wrote:Terminal velocity in free fall occurs when the horizontal portion drops to zero (unless it was fired straight down, of course). An arrow will usually hit something long before this happens, even if only the ground.


Both components of the velocity need to be constant in time for the velocity to be truly terminal. Some would accept something with a remaining horizontal acceleration to also be at terminal velocity; but either way, the vertical velocity must be constant, and that's precisely what you didn't mention here (further context does not include it either). Very odd.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby the_tick_rules » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:26 pm

Radagast wrote:Can someone link me to where we found out Wanda was Level 7? I don't recall seeing that.


her wiki article states her at 8, she hasn't been mentioned as leveling in-comic, or ever for that matter. Maybe she has but we don't know. sizemore did through his traps messing up rcc 1.0 and the volcano trap, of which wanda was a part. If that was enough for her a big old :?: is the only answer we know for sure right now.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby teratorn » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:08 pm

the_tick_rules wrote:
Radagast wrote:Can someone link me to where we found out Wanda was Level 7? I don't recall seeing that.


her wiki article states her at 8, she hasn't been mentioned as leveling in-comic, or ever for that matter. Maybe she has but we don't know. sizemore did through his traps messing up rcc 1.0 and the volcano trap, of which wanda was a part. If that was enough for her a big old :?: is the only answer we know for sure right now.


From the summer updates:

Ansom wrote:His leadership would add three attack to all units on his side, five to those in his hex, and ten to those in his own stack. His mistress would add one to all Decrypted troops on her side, four to those in her hex, and eight to those in her stack.


We infer from this that warlords give an attack bonus to units in their stack equal to their own level, and half of that to those in the hex. Assuming it works like that to decrypted vs their lady, then Wanda's level is eight.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby GaryThunder » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:56 pm

There are several problems with this. First of all, there is no one dictionary sense of fascism. This is largely because of a paucity of concrete examples, which is compounded by contradiction in tenets among the proponents, and at times even among different statements by the same proponent (good luck getting a consistent definition out of Mussolini, for example).

The more topical problem is, I am talking about the philosophical basis. Fascism is based on subsuming the individual will to the collective. Deviance is unacceptable. The idea of the state wronging an individual in it is meaningless under the system. Introspection is sharply curtailed. These are some of the few conserved elements to Fascism

Already it's in a ton of trouble, and we haven't gotten to implementation details yet.


Damn, drache, you're ripping him up. I was going to respond here, but you've really said it better than I ever could.

As far as leadership bonuses stacking, I don't think they do, as only one unit can "lead" a stack at any given time. Wanda's bonus stacks with leadership because it's a caster bonus, or maybe a completely different Decrypted bonus.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:09 pm

GaryThunder wrote:
drachefly wrote:{snip}The more topical problem is, I am talking about the philosophical basis. Fascism is based on subsuming the individual will to the collective. Deviance is unacceptable. The idea of the state wronging an individual in it is meaningless under the system. Introspection is sharply curtailed. These are some of the few conserved elements to Fascism

Already it's in a ton of trouble, and we haven't gotten to implementation details yet.


Damn, drache, you're ripping him up. I was going to respond here, but you've really said it better than I ever could.


Oi, let's not get ahead of ourselves. I agree that drachefly neatly points out the very stuff I (and quite a lot of others) find objectionable about Fascism.

BUT, I don't think this is what Oberon is about (beside getting our goats, right-o?). What (I think) Oberon is saying, is that see, the stuff about Fascism that you and I think are bugs, may seem features to someone else. Funny thing about politics, people tend to not agree on what's the best way to run a community. So funny in fact, that hee-larious wars ensue.

But I digress. The main problem is, how much power should "the community" have over how one leads their life? We might agree that somebody should not be a parasite, that they should be expected to contribute something of value to society (and value here is a very, very wide and interpretable notion; bohemian artists are valuable members in my book, for example). Place too large a burden on the individual however, and you fall into an area of doctrines (of which Fascism is one) that are decidedly distasteful.

Finding balance is fraught with the danger of extremes; but necessary.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby the_tick_rules » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:36 pm

how did this become a part of the update discussion?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:40 pm

the_tick_rules wrote:how did this become a part of the update discussion?


I blame Godwin's Law in diluted form. Somebody mentioned something that caused someone to mention the F-word, and it went downhill from there.

Funnily enough, I'm trying to put a stop to it. Really, the discussion that is bound to follow will be fueled by a misunderstanding of intent.

Meanwhile though, I'm looking for a clip from Alan Moore about this very subject. Because I worship Alan Moore. I have a candle-lit shrine and everything.

EDIT: and here's the relevant part.
Last edited by BLANDCorporatio on Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby teratorn » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:47 pm

I was born in what was at the time a fascist country. It's very different living in one and talking about it like you guys are doing. It's not even funny reading the amount of idiocy in this discussion.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:50 pm

teratorn wrote:I was born in what was at the time a fascist country. It's very different living in one and talking about it like you guys are doing. It's not even funny reading the amount of idiocy in this discussion.


And despite playing the victim card (as well as making assumptions about where the rest of us were born or what we remember), you are correct. The only thing I know about my knowledge of how to make a just political system is that it's zero. Let's move on.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby teratorn » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:11 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:And despite playing the victim card (as well as making assumptions about where the rest of us were born or what we remember), you are correct.


But what tells you I was ever a victim and wasn't for example on the side of the regime, or that I even cared? I'm just saying that I have first hand knowledge of it. I don't need to make assumptions, the discussion talks volumes on how little people understand what they are talking about.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Decorus » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:27 pm

Wanda's bonus is a leadership bonus it only applies to Decrypted and Uncroaked.
Sizemore gives a leadership bonus to Golems and Elementals if they exist.
Ace would give a leadership bonus to Dolls.

Wanda's bonus which is a leadership bonus stacks with Ansom's Leadership bonus for Decrypted.
From what we know 3 unit types give leadership
1. Casters to units that match thier Magic type.
2. Warlords
3. Archons

Also if leadership Bonuses didn't stack Ossamer wouldn't be getting Parson's +2 to all units on his side as Ossamer's leadership bonus would be higher.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Sylvan » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:24 pm

Decorus wrote:Wanda's bonus is a leadership bonus it only applies to Decrypted and Uncroaked.
Sizemore gives a leadership bonus to Golems and Elementals if they exist.
Ace would give a leadership bonus to Dolls.

Wanda's bonus which is a leadership bonus stacks with Ansom's Leadership bonus for Decrypted.
From what we know 3 unit types give leadership
1. Casters to units that match thier Magic type.
2. Warlords
3. Archons

Also if leadership Bonuses didn't stack Ossamer wouldn't be getting Parson's +2 to all units on his side as Ossamer's leadership bonus would be higher.


I think you are confusing the term "leadership bonus" with the term "warlord bonus". You are saying that every type of bonus is a leadership bonus, which I frankly don't believe is the case. A warlord is pretty much just a unit with leadership. Stanley started as a Piker, but was given leadership via promotion. Some natural allies can also have leadership, so some hobgobwins are warlords as well.

Now, there are different types of Warlords. Some can fly, and give a bonus to bats. Some have the archery special. Maybe these ones give an additional bonus to archers, like a Transylvitian Warlord would give a bonus to bats. At least one kingdom has Warlords that rock out. Some have better intuition than others. Ossomer and Tramennis are both warlords, but one may as well have been "a side of beef promoted from the larder" while the other is a quick thinker. How do you quantify these bonuses? Duncan Scone was able to give units under his command a special sort of luckamancy/leadership bonus. Yes, it was from a magic item, but is there a Warlord out there who can naturally do the same? Do all of them do it to a degree? I don't know, or claim to.

So, to sum up, it is possible that units give multiple types of bonuses. Maybe Wanda's straight up "I am a warrior and can tell these units the right things to do" bonus is lower than Ansom's, but her ability to magically strengthen the warriors she stole from fate is about on par with what he brings to the table. The generic "leadership bonus" is dependent on their level, but an individual Warlord may or may not have something useful to contribute to different battles.

Basically, what Yuffiek said here, but with more words.

yuffiek wrote:
Smoker wrote:We've seen warlords stack together before, but I cant recall anything that states their bonuses stack. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.


The warlord bonus doesn't stack with multiple warlords. Other bonuses though will stack, like Wanda's bonus on all Decrypted stacking with Ansom's Chief Warlord bonus. (Summer Updates pg 33)

Next to Wanda (lvl 8), Sylvia is probably the toughest character (lvl 7) on the ground, so her bonus is absolutely vital for GK atm. Fud is effectively a Lvl 10+ bodyguard right now (+7 from Sylvia, and 2 gained levels)

Oh yeah, that reminds me that Wanda's Decrypted armored red Dwagon currently serving as her meat shield from JS arrows is also getting her massive stack bonus, and is about to get Duke Antium's Warlord bonus.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby ScegfOd » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:27 pm

I was just looking for the thing about how warlord bonuses stack and here it is. Looks like you can get a warlord bonus on top of a chief-warlord-is-in-the-hex bonus. Perhaps there is a bonus from having a leader in your stack and a separate bonus from the chief warlord (like the side bonus or the in hex bonus).
As a side note, anyone else notice the 6th panel where Stanley roflstomps about 30 "almost like heavies" and Caeser with one hit? O.o
Didn't someone say something about the hammer being underpowered? :P
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby fractal » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:54 pm

ScegfOd wrote:As a side note, anyone else notice the 6th panel where Stanley roflstomps about 30 "almost like heavies" and Caeser with one hit? O.o
Didn't someone say something about the hammer being underpowered? :P

The ability to command bats is insignificant next to the power of the Titans.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby kagato23 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:34 pm

yuffiek wrote:
Smoker wrote:We've seen warlords stack together before, but I cant recall anything that states their bonuses stack. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.


The warlord bonus doesn't stack with multiple warlords. Other bonuses though will stack, like Wanda's bonus on all Decrypted stacking with Ansom's Chief Warlord bonus. (Summer Updates pg 33)

Next to Wanda (lvl 8), Sylvia is probably the toughest character (lvl 7) on the ground, so her bonus is absolutely vital for GK atm. Fud is effectively a Lvl 10+ bodyguard right now (+7 from Sylvia, and 2 gained levels)

Oh yeah, that reminds me that Wanda's Decrypted armored red Dwagon currently serving as her meat shield from JS arrows is also getting her massive stack bonus, and is about to get Duke Antium's Warlord bonus.


The warlord bonuses definitely don't stack, and I don't think it works the way you think it does. I think the actions of chiefwarlords have demonstrated why:

They are almost always in front.

Now, we don't know how warlord bonuses stack yet, just chief warlords. But I'm sure it's a lot less, at least by half. If warlord bonuses stacked the same way as chief warlord bonuses, then chief warlord stacks would, as a rule, be in many cases THE WEAKEST stack.

If we assume Sylvia is level 7, and she has a +5 when Ansom is in the hex, in addition to her own plus 7 on her stack, her stack gets +12 leadership bonus compared to Ansoms +10. Logically, if this is how the system works, then Chief Warlords should actually hang back, and often let subordinates do most of the initial/heavy work except in low risk situations where they want to level.

Instead, we seem them in the foreground, fighting the fight for their rulers. This has been the case for every Chief Warlord we've seen except for Parson. The conclusion we have to reach is that being just a warlord does not give the same bonus' to stack.

One additional note, we don't know how attacks work with levels (and for that matter, if defense and hits get any bonus' at all). But I'm guessing leveling twice (we can assume he was low level at least, 1-2 if he's leveled twice in one go), might actually give more then just +1 to atk. Might be 2-3, for a heavy. I'm guessing though that he's a pretty tough hob right now, either way.

ScegfOd wrote:I was just looking for the thing about how warlord bonuses stack and here it is. Looks like you can get a warlord bonus on top of a chief-warlord-is-in-the-hex bonus. Perhaps there is a bonus from having a leader in your stack and a separate bonus from the chief warlord (like the side bonus or the in hex bonus).


Now, I'm just throwing out a number, but this makes the math work: Lets assume that warlords only give half of their level to their stacks. So, to get somebody even equal to the chief warlords stack, you'd need somebody of the same level, and above him to get a higher bonus then his stack. And if your a higher level then the chief warlord, the thinking would then by why the boop aren't you chief warlord (which is of course ignoring strategy, which is Stanley's big flaw. Ansom offered him far greater power but Parson's proved already that leadership bonus isn't all that can win a fight, though even he see's the wisdom of commanding in the background and letting the higher level people give the bonus). So, if we do this, the math would match up to how people have been acting so far, and it all makes sense. Its why the chief warlord is often leading the fight, theirs is generally the baddest stack in the hex. Parson leading GK is the exception, but he's a very special case.

Also, if we look back when Parson is talking "Artifact bonus piled on the leader bonus", Leadership shouldn't have been that big a deal if warlords worked the same; Jillian is a 9, Ansom is a 10. +1 isn't that hot. If however it went from +4 (Jillian's 9 divided by half and rounded down) to +10, that'd be a more significant threat.

Now, we don't have any conclusive information either way, but I"m guessing that if two warlords in the same hex combined their bonuses, we'd again see very different behavior. I'm betting the bonus either goes to A: whoever is highest, or B: whoever is officially declared "in charge" of the stack. This may be automatically decided by the criteria of "A": "You don't give me orders commander. I'm a 9; your a 5." Again, if they stacked, then we'd have people figuring that out by now. You'd see all warlord stacks, because the bonuses of them would outweigh the limitations of how many targets you could engage simply by near-juggernaut status. As is, I'm guessing the benefits of having multiple stacks who can coordinate and flank attacks with decent gains to troops is better then having one big strong stack that can be ultimately surrounded and chipped down.
Last edited by kagato23 on Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby the_tick_rules » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:07 pm

the chief adds 30% of his level as a bonus to all units on his side, 50% to hex, 100% to side. I believe a reg warlord has the last two of the three and they do work together. I would have said stack but that's crosssing terms :lol:
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby kagato23 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:11 pm

the_tick_rules wrote:the chief adds 30% of his level as a bonus to all units on his side, 50% to hex, 100% to side. I believe a reg warlord has the last two of the three and they do work together. I would have said stack but that's crosssing terms :lol:


... I think that makes it more confusing then if you just said Stack? :lol: But as I just spent far too long typing out above, if Warlords give 100% to stack as well, then anytime you have a warlord better then half his chief warlords level, his stack's leadership bonus is actually STRONGER. From how everybody has engaged in combat so far, either nobody can count and hasn't figured that out somehow, or warlord bonus must work differently then chief warlord bonus.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby the_tick_rules » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:19 pm

If I'm right about reg's that makes sense, like why they make so many reg warlords, cause you can only have one chief.
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