Book 2 - Text Updates 039

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Squishalot » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:55 am

Lamech wrote:
If anything, your argument about Bogroll only strengthens my case. If Ansom only gets a net attack of 10 after leadership, why should Bogroll get a net attack of 15? :O And how is it possible to get an attack of lower than Ansom's, if his base attack is zero?
Wait what? We know that every unit in the column had a base attack of 6 or more. Ansom's base attack is at least 6. Ansom gets a net attack of 16 after leadership (if we assume that leadership adds directly to base attack.)

I'd question the definition of 'base attack' as it's used in there, compared to what we're calling it. I think the comment "No unit within it had lower than six base attack." includes the CWL bonus (i.e. the +3 that Ansom provides to all units in the side) and possibly the Decryption +1 bonus.

What we're talking about would be the initial (2) that the (+3) and (+1) bonuses get applied to, to get to that 6 number.

My point about Ansom having a net attack of 10 is based on Oberon's comment that Ansom should have an attack of 10, as he has 10 leadership. But I realise now that I may have misinterpreted his comment....

I also realise that we may be inflating the stack bonus slightly. If an 8 stack provides a bonus of +8, then a 1 stack would provide a bonus of +1, which is silly, suggesting that the 8 stack bonus must be lower, potentially +7, for example. If so, then Ansom may have an attack of 6 (assuming that the comment from the page refers to pre-CWL bonuses), and the Arkenplier bonus is +2.

But, again, by definition, someone has to have an attack skill 3 lower than Ansom, in order for the worst unit in the stack to have an attack of 30...
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Oberon » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:04 am

Squishalot wrote:Another example - Webinar is level 5. Assuming that heavies have a base attack of 3-5, the cloth golems and heavies in his stack would have an attack of 8-10 or thereabouts, whereas his own personal attack (not affected by leadership) would only be 5.
I also kinda think that the leadership bonus applies to the unit itself. That both makes sense from a simplicity point of view by eliminating the "add to all units except itself" exception, and makes little sense from a logical point of view, as you don't lead yourself.

It also would screw up the calculation of Ansom's 33, as we'd have:
10 - Ansom
10 - Ansom's leadership
08 - Wanda's decrypted bonus
?? - Stack bonus (good spot that it's not necessarily 8 as I was assuming due to the stack bonus stopping at 8 units)
?? - Artifact bonus

And we' may have lost the CWL bonus somewhere, as Ansom was CWL at the time and that should add something as well. Although bring CWL may just allow your leadership have a farther range, including a static bonus for every unit on your Side.

Meh, I'm done speculating. We need more facts.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby kagato23 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:44 am

Oberon wrote:
Squishalot wrote:Another example - Webinar is level 5. Assuming that heavies have a base attack of 3-5, the cloth golems and heavies in his stack would have an attack of 8-10 or thereabouts, whereas his own personal attack (not affected by leadership) would only be 5.
I also kinda think that the leadership bonus applies to the unit itself. That both makes sense from a simplicity point of view by eliminating the "add to all units except itself" exception, and makes little sense from a logical point of view, as you don't lead yourself.

It also would screw up the calculation of Ansom's 33, as we'd have:
10 - Ansom
10 - Ansom's leadership
08 - Wanda's decrypted bonus
?? - Stack bonus (good spot that it's not necessarily 8 as I was assuming due to the stack bonus stopping at 8 units)
?? - Artifact bonus

And we' may have lost the CWL bonus somewhere, as Ansom was CWL at the time and that should add something as well. Although bring CWL may just allow your leadership have a farther range, including a static bonus for every unit on your Side.

Meh, I'm done speculating. We need more facts.


No, see, Ansom's leadership IS his CWL bonus. I also think that Wanda's +8 takes into account the artifact bonus. So all we really have is +18 to Ansom's stack. The rest wasn't given in numbers, so we speculated. I do think that stack bonus is much, much lower then +1 unit, +1 to atk. So, there's 15 points of attack we can't completely account for. What we really need is to know Ansom's base attack or the stack bonus. But I have to think it's above six.

Squishalot wrote:I'd question the definition of 'base attack' as it's used in there, compared to what we're calling it. I think the comment "No unit within it had lower than six base attack." includes the CWL bonus (i.e. the +3 that Ansom provides to all units in the side) and possibly the Decryption +1 bonus.


Don't agree with this. Generally "base" stats refer to stats before any bonus is added onto them.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby kwotski » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:09 am

davesnothere wrote: There does seem to be a dearth of bozos on this bus.

I'm sorry you think so ... what's your name again? Uh ... Clem? I can prove different. Go ahead! Squeeze the wheeze!
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Hidden Sanity » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:11 am

I always imagined stack bonuses to bea fairly small bonus on a dimishing returns system that took the dive at 8, but that's just me.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby The Game » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:21 am

Well, from the uber stack of DOOM we know that:

1) No unit had a lower attack stat than 6
2) The lowest total bonus of the unit(s) within the stack was 30

Given that this unit is one of the Decrypted horde, we should be able to figure out Ansoms base attack quite simply.

Ansoms CW bonus = 10
Wandas decrypt bonus = 8
Base attack = 6
This adds up to a total of 24, leaving the last +6 unaccounted for (could be stack + artifact bonuses)

Going by this, Ansom has a base attack of (33 - 24) = 9.

If the lowest attacking unit would be Wanda, she'd still be subject to Ansoms +10, and she would likely have at least 6 attack, leaving us with a MAX additional bonus of +14, which is probably the pliers + a stack bonus. Either way we should be able to get something out of this.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby GaryThunder » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:23 am

It might not be a strict leadership bonus matter. Maybe the Chief Warlord gains combat bonuses concomitant with his title, and is just generally the toughest head-breaker in any given side, and that's why they're usually in the front. Also consider that for a warlord to do better commanding his own stack in the hex with his CWL, that warlord's bonus has to be greater than half of his CWL's bonus. For high-level named units like Sylvia and Jillian, that makes sense, but I significantly get the sense that with unit turnover being what it is in Erfworld, units (warlords, for these purposes) higher than level 4-5 are rare. With a beast like Ansom in the hex, a unit would do better to join his stack than that of another warlord - even with Ansom's hex-wide +5 CWL bonus stacked on, a warlord would have to be Level 6 or higher to outclass Ansom's direct bonus. There probably aren't a huge number of those, even among GK's bloated forces.

Which is why the bats in Caesar's stack at the pass were the strongest, presumably because Caesar is so high level that his direct bonus is still higher than that of any (most?) of the other warlords' plus his hex-wide CWL bonus. If Caesar is also Level 10, like Ansom (he seems to be able to overpower Jillian, a level 9, but that's another discussion), then unless he brought any Level 6+ warlords with him, his bats were the bomb.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Smoker » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:30 am

Kagato23, I think you have explained this the best so far, and your observations and theory on CWL Stack being weak are very slick.

If anyone is still unsure on this topic, I suggest you re-read Kagato's posts. :D
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Dr Pepper » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:47 am

kwotski wrote:
davesnothere wrote: There does seem to be a dearth of bozos on this bus.

I'm sorry you think so ... what's your name again? Uh ... Clem? I can prove different. Go ahead! Squeeze the wheeze!


Hmm, it appears that a few of us have come back from the shadows.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby suryasm » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:06 am

BEHOLD!

I have found the definite proof that Warlord bonuses DO add up among Warlords in the same stack! 8-)

Book 2, page 6, Panel 6, Ansom to Wanda:

"You want to attack a Royal Chief Warlord (Ossomer) leading a stack of Noble warlords...." http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -11-14.jpg

Now why would Ossomer do something like that, if warlord bonuses did not add up? Do not say "Nobles have better stats than ordinary troops". Even if they do, they would not have better stats than a top-ranked Heavy or Knight unit, otherwise the whole concept of Heavies and Knights become a waste.

As for why Gobwin Knob didn't use the same tactic, it's clearly because they are short on Warlords, compared to Jetstone. So while Ansom may be attacking at a 33, Ossomer could very well have been fighting at 40+, which is why Ansom seemed to consider the assault to be so dangerous.

All hail me!
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby John Thacker » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:00 am

Oberon wrote:As if there aren't plenty of good things about socialism. Without socialism, we would not have an interstate highway system. The taxes to build and maintain this system are not measured and adjusted by how much you use the highways, and my 95 year old grandmother who does not drive or travel is still taxed just as much as the traveling salesman who is constantly on the road.


Wow, so much incorrect here. You shouldn't laugh at other people for misusing labels if you're going to make such amateurish and ignorant mistakes yourself.

First, the taxes to build and maintain the highway system are measured and adjusted by how much you use the highways. The Interstate Highway System is almost entirely funded by the Highway Trust Fund, the federal portion of which is funded by user fees, primarily gas taxes but also some other motor vehicle taxes. (Some state and local funds from general sources are spent on the IHS, though at the same time some portion of gas taxes are diverted to non-road purposes, primarily but not entirely transit.) You can see the Highway Statistics table showing revenues and spending here. The amount of gas tax you pay is supposed to be a measure of how much you use the highways. The spending on the system is a complicated formula that is adjusted by how many people there are, how much highway there is to maintain, how much taxes they pay, and a lot of other factors, but it is supposed be measured and adjusted by how much you use the highways and other factors considered relevant.

Your 95 year grandmother who does not drive or travel is taxed much, much less for the Interstate Highway System than the traveling salesman who is constantly on the road.

In previous years, I would be able to say that the money for the highways was entirely from user fees. That was true up until 2006. The recent stimulus bill contained "emergency" highway money from general funds, because the Democrats really wanted to spend more on highways but were worried about the political backlash from raising gas taxes, especially when gas prices were high.

Second, it's simply untrue to say that "without socialism, we would not have an interstate highway system," and bespeaks of an utter lack of imagination of a world other than the one we have that's shocking in someone reading a fantasy comic. We wouldn't have the current Interstate Highway System, but we would certainly have an interstate highway system. We had interstate highways before the IHS (both public and private), and they connected to one another.

Your claim is like claiming that because the Titans left Royals in charge of all the Sides, that without Royals Erf would have no Sides. A claim since proven utterly false!
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby GaryThunder » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:42 am

BEHOLD!

I have found the definite proof that Warlord bonuses DO add up among Warlords in the same stack! 8-)

Book 2, page 6, Panel 6, Ansom to Wanda:

"You want to attack a Royal Chief Warlord (Ossomer) leading a stack of Noble warlords...." http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -11-14.jpg

Now why would Ossomer do something like that, if warlord bonuses did not add up? Do not say "Nobles have better stats than ordinary troops". Even if they do, they would not have better stats than a top-ranked Heavy or Knight unit, otherwise the whole concept of Heavies and Knights become a waste.

As for why Gobwin Knob didn't use the same tactic, it's clearly because they are short on Warlords, compared to Jetstone. So while Ansom may be attacking at a 33, Ossomer could very well have been fighting at 40+, which is why Ansom seemed to consider the assault to be so dangerous.

All hail me!


I thought this as well, a while ago. But this fails to account for a significant factor, that being that if that's true, once the other warlords were Shocked and Tramennis was gummed up, Ossomer should have been reduced to just his bonus. Then Ansom, moving in fully stacked with Wanda's bonus and the Arkenpliers bonus, should have easily bested him. But he didn't...I think that Ossomer was in fact "leading" the stack of Noble warlords, and that only the leadership bonus of the unit leading the stack counts. (Otherwise, why would it be called leading the stack?) Ansom was upset at the notion of attacking an entire stack of powerful Noble warlords with Ossomer's bonus. Warlords are all but explicitly stated to be some of the physically strongest and toughest units on the battlefield, far more so than common infantry or even knights, with the exception of certain heavy units like dwagons or megalogwiffs. A whole stack of buffed-out Noble warlords would have cleaned Ansom's clock, especially with Ossomer leading the charge. Ansom didn't fear their bonuses, he just feared their power.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Lamech » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:48 am

suryasm wrote:Now why would Ossomer do something like that, if warlord bonuses did not add up? Do not say "Nobles have better stats than ordinary troops". Even if they do, they would not have better stats than a top-ranked Heavy or Knight unit, otherwise the whole concept of Heavies and Knights become a waste.
Yeah, no. Warlords are really badass. See Jillian taking the dwagon? And then see when the dwagons attacked the column or fought off the woodsy elves? They are super powerful, maybe not as strong as a good heavy, but really strong. And they are much smaller than any heavy so for maximum power in a chokepoint warlords are the best. And the whole plan was based around using the chokepoint to their advantage.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Beeskee » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:10 pm

Krennson wrote:
Krennson wrote:
Beeskee wrote:I


On-topic: "The stone floor, solid as a rulebook"... Is Sylvia thinking this? If so, does that mean Erfworld has an actual rulebook somewhere in the popped libraries that Parson missed? Or do units have a concept of rulebooks without them actually existing? (That would be weird, since they have no concept of children.) Or is this flavor text by the author and not actually indicative of something that exists in Erfworld?



The concept of a 'rulebook' is probably part of erfworlds weird 'religion of the titans.' They probably don't have an ACTUAL rulebook handed down by the titans, but there might be several 'proposed' rulebooks by various philosphers, with differing levels of "crunchiness" versus "spiritualist" aspects to how they describe the erfworld condition



Although.... come to think of it, an "owners manual" would be the perfect arkentool for parson to find.



It would be hilarious if that was the fourth arkentool. "The rulebook of the gods." Nobody goes after it because they know all the rules. :D Ok it may be lame from a story standpoint but reading that conversation would be totally lolworthy. Go on, imagine the look on Parson's face when he finds out about it. :D
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Avalus » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:41 pm

Does anyone else see the Lord of the Rings reference? (King Theoden, being squishesd under his horse an the battle of pellenor-fields und shouting "Eorlingas to me!")

Anyway, what a superb update along with Jacks comments about Jetstonian Weather in the las Comic about my fav. Update to that point. :D

And turning to that bonus debate:

Many pages indicate that there are many types of 'Leadership' bonus (or at least that is how I understand it).
So here are my thoghts about it:

Attack seems to consist of:
Baseattack + Equipment bonus* + Stack bonus** + Leadership bonus + Artifact bonus + Terrain Bonus + Caster bonus + [CWL Bonus***]

(* Like the queens booping big sword or Parsons magic items...
** in Stacks between 2 and 8 (a single unit (=stack of 1) should not recieve a stack bonus, that is kinda counterintuitive ;)
***i.e. 30,50 or 100% of CLW's LD)
(Boni with respect to each unit, like golems get bonus by Dirtamancer, Croakamancer and Decrypted/uncroaked, unled stacks without LD and so on)

- The Stack-Leaders LD adds to all Units in the stack (thats why the unit with the highest value is usually leader...)
Probably, (in case of a stack with multiple Warlords like Ossomers), the warlords not leading only add their LD bonus to themself individually which would make a Stack of Warlords quite powerful (yet most likely also very expensive..
also @ Suryasm: I think, Ansoms reply'd that way, because he thought they would try to wipe out that stack [Very Dangerous indeed with all those individuall powerfull Warlords]. It is clear, that he was unaware of that sneaky grab'n'run tactic until Jack explains it)
- I see no problem with the notion, that the leading Warlord has not the highest total attack value. (Think about it, a warlord leading a stack of heavies, it is likly that the Warkord deals way less damage but he can direct the heavy's attacks)
- different kinds of Boni stack whereas boni of the same flavour don't seem to stack (Only one Warlord can lead a stack and therefore adds his LD to all others attackvalue)

My Conclusion is, that many Warlords in one Stack are not really usefull. I Admit, it would be an utterly powerfull stack but in an "additive Way" (to quote Parson here).
You should do better if you distribute the Warlords to unlead stacks, so each unit gets the Warlords bonus. Probably Jetstone uses the Warlord-stack around Ossomer because they are short of heavys (who seem to be more powerful).
Arright, I forgot, Jetstone is fond of it's infantry so it makes sense fluff-wise ;)

Let's take a breif look at Scarlets situation, shall we?
After her dearing descent and crash she was incapitated but conscious. So she has Attack 0 but a LD Value
Then she stacked with Fud und he got her LD to his attack and stomped those Jetsones.
And lastly she added her LD Bonus to Captain Archer (*lol*) thereby boosting his damage and (as I take it from the picture), telling him who to shoot.

(I hope one is able to understand my scribbelings, english is not my native language)
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Beeskee » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:06 pm

We know decrypted warlords can combine bonuses with croakamancers (Wanda+Decrypted Ansom) - or rather, that casters combine bonuses with units they control or create.

Not sure if warlords combine bonuses with chief warlords. I think they do, based on the Transylvito-Stanley battle, but I'd have to re-read it.

Really not sure if warlords combine bonuses with other regular warlords.


We do know combat bonuses are the key to winning, but that Erfworld units don't always see "the big picture" or will disregard bonuses that don't seem effective enough. Wanda tells Jack not to bother using any foolamancy to protect them. Parson tells Jack to put a cheap baffle on the stack because he'll take that 1% bonus or whatever it gives, even though it may not technically matter in the battle.

So regular warlords could combine bonuses, perhaps at a lowered bonus amount. Maybe that's where the missing 10 points or whatever come in. I'm not bad at math but there are way better mathamancers here. :) So I haven't really played with the numbers to figure out what is going on. Too much is still undefined so we don't get the full picture, but I would imagine the author actually did the math if he's giving a number for it, since anything we've seen with that level of detail has been planned out carefully and he doesn't seem to invent numbers. If it was uncertain, he would have left that detail out. Based on the math we've seen in this thread, if Ansom's attack was that high, we're missing some key piece of info.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby peteratjet » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:00 pm

This is wildly off topic, and rather silly. The USA has ~never~ had a socialist government, unless the Presidency of Eugene Debs was somehow erased from history. (Fate-o-mancy?)
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby suryasm » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:36 pm

Avalus wrote:My Conclusion is, that many Warlords in one Stack are not really usefull. I Admit, it would be an utterly powerfull stack but in an "additive Way" (to quote Parson here).
You should do better if you distribute the Warlords to unlead stacks, so each unit gets the Warlords bonus. Probably Jetstone uses the Warlord-stack around Ossomer because they are short of heavys (who seem to be more powerful).
Arright, I forgot, Jetstone is fond of it's infantry so it makes sense fluff-wise ;)


A possibility, but you have to remember - Warlords are insanely expensive units. They are repeatedly shown having some of the highest upkeeps in the game. And they are expensive not because of their fighting ability (which is high but not THAT high) but because of their Leadership. A led stack not only gets enormously stronger due to straight WL bonus, but there is also a large intangible bonus which comes from all the extra tricks a led stack can perform, against an unled one.

Given this, I am convinced their is some bonus stacking taking place when Warlords unite. Otherwise the downsides of wasting all those warlords in one stack is too high, infantry fluff notwithstanding. Maybe not a full bonus, but at least a partial (maybe 30%?). As for Ossomer losing the bonus when his fellow lords went down - remember they were not actual incapacited by injury. They were paralyzed by bubble gum, and by a Shockomancy special ability paralysis. Most of the Warlords are shown recovering in seconds. This is very similar to Sylvia's incapacitation which does not impair Leadership bonuses in any way. So, yeah, Ossomer was in fact attacking at as high a level as Ansom or better, which is why he was winning their duel. Ansom and Wanda effectively had to double-team him to take him down. So one single CWL Ossomer had to be matched by Ansom (att 33) and Wanda (att at least 11, possibly much higher with Arkenpliers). Sounds like a man buffed by mongo bonuses.

Also, someone said a smaller, lighter unit is better in a chokepoint. This is silly. In a space with no room for maneuver or fancy footwork, what would you rather have - a 4-foot tall damage dealer, or a 6-foot tall damage dealer with a lot more hits? Because that bridge may be narrow, but plenty wide enough for heavies to engage effectively.
Last edited by suryasm on Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:45 pm

suryasm wrote:Also, someone said a smaller, lighter unit is better in a chokepoint. This is silly. In a space with no room for maneuver or fancy footwork, what would you rather have - a 4-foot tall damage dealer, or a 6-foot tall damage dealer with a lot more hits? Because that bridge may be narrow, but plenty wide enough for heavies to engage effectively.


Correct. Maybe whoever made the initial claim meant something else though. Choke points end, eventually. A narrow passage ends into a wide open space, which may be filled with hostile units (heavy or otherwise) that only need to fight whatever squeezes through the choke.

That said, heavies are seemingly the best units to tackle this situation and break through a choke point; it still would be a tough battle, with the enemy capable to concentrate more firepower on GK units. Which is another reason why weakening JS as much as possible now while the Atrium's not empty is a good idea.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby effataigus » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:56 pm

This is getting confusing with all of the different questions in play. I haven't paid enough attention to this topic during my reading of the comic. Here are the questions I've seen in the forum... do we have firm evidence that gives us an answer to any of the following?:

1. Do multiple warlords in the same stack have leadership bonuses that stack for each other?
Speculation in italics... hrm, seems silly, but it would account for all of the warlord stacks we've seen, also how Ansom+Jillian+Vinnie+archons kicked so much dwagon butt. Would have been better to have a full warlord stack in the Caesar/Bat/Dwagon/Stanley fight though, no? Also, begs the question of why this isn't the *only* tactic used.

2. Is there a size limit on stacks?
Random rules regarding max stack size being related to the size of the units involved would account for a lot of observations... why bats, why not heavies....

3a. Does CWL leadership bonus stack with local leadership bonus or is the higher value used?
If these two types of leadership do not stack at all, then having low level warlords lead stacks only makes sense to allow the stacks to be directed and to level up your warlords.

3b. If it does stack, does CWL's bonus apply twice when the leader of a stack is the CWL?
Seems unlikely that it stacks twice. If it does, then Ansom and units in his stack should have had 28 just from leadership and Wanda, not to mention any stack bonus or base attack... keeping in mind that other units in his stack had 30 total. If it doesn't stack twice, is that just because it's Ansom leading the stack? If this is the case, then it would make more sense to have another warlord leading your CWL's stack.

4. Is stack bonus 1 for 1 until you have 8 units, or are there diminishing returns on that?
Hmm, 8=2^3... wouldn't be surprised if max stack bonus was 3...

5. What is a warlord's base attack? Around how much is this typically?
Last edited by effataigus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am, edited 239044 times in total.
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