Book 2 – Page 52

[danhaas]

I read the reactions forum for two days after an Erfworld post. Those two days rank with the best the internet offers: intelligent posters pointing out the fun stuff I missed. After that... well, let's just say the quality tends to degrade dramatically.

Can I just say... LOVE your sig.

Book 2 – Page 52
by balder » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:36 am

New One is up.

48 hours later...

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2096&start=120#p48055

The discussion level starts to decrease steadily after ~40 hours. After 72 hours, it is mostly offtopic and flaming.

It seems just trolls and fanboys keep interested after 3 days.

PS.: I think I qualify as both now.

[fjolnir]

quality of posting generally decreases when the quantity of pages exceeds 4...

[drachefly]

Guests, like fish, and Erfworld reaction threads, begin to smell after three days. - Benjamin Franklin (approx)

(edited to clarify to reactions)

[atalex]

Hmm, interesting. So, you think that people should just ignore anyone who perceives events different than themselves? A very interesting point of view, indeed. I totally disagree with that point of view (ignoring people who think opposite to you).

But unlike you, I can accept the fact that there can be, there SHOULD be, people who think different than me.

Oh for pity's sake, I'm not suggesting we send Oberon to a gulag for bad-wrong-think! But the Foe button is there for a reason: to allow readers to enjoy the forums without having to wade through posters that they consistently find offensive. I, personally, find Oberon's repetitive and insistent posts asserting that "Trammenis is holding the idiot ball" to be offensive. I'll be happy to have an argument as to whether Tram should have done this or shouldn't have done that. But the "Idiot Ball" trope is an insinuation that a character is acting incomprehensibly stupid for the sole purpose of advancing the plot. It is an attack on the writing capabilities of the author, and in my personal opinion, an attack like that against Rob made against him in his own forum is offensive and rude. YMMV.

For what it's worth, I have clicked on a few of Oberon's posts in response to the latest update. So far, all of them have been some variation on "Well, Tram is a little smarter this week. Glad he's finally dropped the idiot ball." And then, I just go back to ignoring him. If that's not representative of the rest of his posts, I'm glad to hear it. But my suspicion is that when we're nearing the end of Book 3, I'll click on a post of his that will say "Hey, this reminds me of that time three years ago when Trammenis was holding the idiot ball."

[Kyrt]

Umm... so asking for a thinkagram to someone important is somehow more troublesome than asking for GK to LOWER THEIR DEFENSES, after you (RCCII) have TWICE betrayed them during a cease-fire? I'm sorry how does that work exactly?

Hows he going to arrange for one without a parley with the in-hex Warlords? If JS has a Thinkamancer capable of doing so, he doesn't appear to be in the same hex. That means he has to go through the warlords anyway.

The most he can do is request one....but that still emans goignt rhough the in hex Warlords to convince them as the Royals rep is such that they're likely to think "This is all a ploy to humiliate parson" and refuse...they know they're going to die anyway and they don't have to agree to the parley.

And yes, Tram should assume that the chief warlord is paying attention to the most important fight GK has had since the battle at the capital.

Because he should feel the need to witness his own army get slaughtered?

Why? How does a message being carried by someone you like, make you more willing to respond to the request?

I think that answers the question. or are you seriously saying that parson woudln't answrer a call from his own Warlord?

How is Tram saying "Let's talk." Any different from Ossomer saying "Tram wants to talk."?

Really? Trams side has a history of offering up spurious parleys in order to justify a slaughter. Ossomer is a loyal Warlord bound by Duty to do whats best for GK. Would you pick up a call from Tram knowing that he'll simply offer a dubious bargain and kill your army anyway?

Nor does Jetstone know GK can truly do nothing.

Actually...they probably do. They have zero move as their turn ended. And they are restricted by zone boundaries. Parson may have a few tricks up his sleeve but the zone boundaries and the lack of movement capability would prevent any attemtp to escape and attack. Which it did. If you discount the impossible, GK literally can do nothing except the various off turn actions. One of which did have a way to make the impossible possible.

They could hire Charlie and make Haggar betray Jetstone

The same Haggar who just got chewed up at the bridge? There was a reason Haggar was waiting for JS to wear itself down. And GK didn't hire Charlie in TBfGK when its very existence was at stake.

Not to mention "The impression I got was that he was working against GK..."; at which point you can argue Tram shouldn't trust his feelings.

Any number of spells (which could all be in a scroll) would allow for devastating affects across zone/hex borders.

Protected.

Jetstone knows bombs are a possibility.

And discounts them as a major effect. They'll cause some damage but will ultimately be an irritation.

And even the irritation is still lost bargaining chips, and units. Not something that Jetstone can really afford to be throwing away right now.

Bargaining units GK forced JS to destroy. And units that a: are facing a lack of upkeep and b: aren't actually going to be of much use in the battle to come.

[Kyrt]

Edit: Re-reading this, I see the need to point out that Kyrt was the originator of the "irritation" term, not Lamech.

It seemed a fitting description.

When it did occur....Slately was annoyed more than anything else...he was worried about the building or the troops. Neither was Tram, but he wanted the yellows shot down so their only combat option was removed ands the parley could then continue.

Neither went "This a a catastrophe!!!! Quick, kill them all". Or even implied anything close to it. They got one building damaged and few dead troopers from an attack by a few units who were quickly shot down.

Did major damage occur? One roof needs to be repaired. And JS doesn't have to spend as much on upkeep. Bonus possibility....the tower will take less damage and they'll lose fewer archers.
Could major dmage have occurred? I suppose if all the yellows had rolled natural 20s a few times, then the building may have taken slightly more damage.

[Kyrt]

Apparently, Tram can "order" GK's units around to dispel veils and position themselves as Tram sees fit. Why can't he just add "I want an archon to connect me to Parson" to his terms?

Because then he's trying to negoitiate with someone who isn't in hex and has no reason to speak with him.

Is there a reason he should believe that Parson won't answer his calls? NO.

"We just proved we can't parley with JS".

"They will offer some perfunctory, unacceptable terms of surrender...."

"We coudl bargain with them in earnest"

The Royal sides have a rep. Parson knows it. Tram knows it. Parson has no reason to speak take part in a parley that has no outcome other than the humiliation of GK.

[Smoker]

In the interests of reducing the repetition that has occured over the past few reactions threads, there is this:

"The Discussion cannot stay here, Gandalf"

See you there

[Oberon]

Did major damage occur? One roof needs to be repaired. And JS doesn't have to spend as much on upkeep.

Ah, yes. The old Jetstone "We welcome the slaying of our troops and the destruction of our atrium, because we're too poor to support them anyway" argument. I like this one the best.

Parson has no reason to speak take part in a parley that has no outcome other than the humiliation of GK.

And again, insisting that a character who has never refused a discussion must refuse a discussion is a fools argument.

[atalex]

The Royal sides have a rep. Parson knows it. Tram knows it. Parson has no reason to speak take part in a parley that has no outcome other than the humiliation of GK.

In the interests of showing open-mindedness, I will respectfully disagree with this position. I can easily imagine Parson taking part in a parley. I imagine he would see that there are other possible outcomes that just "humiliation" -- if nothing else, the opportunity to gain intelligence on an enemy and possibly perform psy-ops (as he did with Ansom in Bk 1). And if he and Tram DID enter a dialogue, I could very easily see them coming to mutually beneficial terms. (Whether they could sell those terms to Stanley, Slately and Wanda is another matter.) I just don't see how it could have ever happened in this particular scenario because long before Tram had ever gotten into a position to initiate parley, Parson had already decided that the start of parley would be the trigger for his stratagem and had communicated that decision to his entire command staff. So even if Tram had insisted on speaking directly to Parson (in what I expect would be considered an astonishing breach of protocol), would Parson have taken the call at that particular time? Only if he were willing to abort his stratagem -- the desperate Hail Mary pass which he thought was the only way to avoid being wiped out -- to do so. And not just on the hope that JS wanted to offer non-humiliating terms, but on the hope that JS would unexpectedly offer terms good enough to justify quitting the field entirely. Since that would have been nearly inconceivable to Parson, I don't see why he would have taken the call at that time, because if he aborted the exploit and negotiations failed, then the expeditionary force is toast, because the moment that talks break down, Tram opens up with something like 1200 arrows and massive shockamancy.

EDIT: and now that I see the link for "Tramennis and Thinkagrams," I'll try to keep discussions of that point out of this thread.

[Kyrt]

In the interests of showing open-mindedness, I will respectfully disagree with this position. I can easily imagine Parson taking part in a parley.

In a serious parley? Yes. Probably. So long as it had greater chance of victory/success than atatcking. Right now, he knows the Royals rep and doesn't consider a parley with JS to be viable. As far as Tram is aware, however, GK likely knows the royals rep. As such, Parson - from Trams pov - has zero reason to talk to him. And no reason to pay attention to a lost force.

[Kyrt]

Ah, yes. The old Jetstone "We welcome the slaying of our troops and the destruction of our atrium, because we're too poor to support them anyway" argument. I like this one the best.

Its a gameworld...why care about minions? Plus, its a minor inconvenience - they aren't going to give up their parley for that. Nor can they do anything to stop it without talking to somebody. Noones saying they would be happy about it. But what is it that makes you think they see this as a truly major issue? They were anf are going to take losses this turn no matter what they do and were expecting it...just at the bridge. Where is the indication that this sudden attack is indeed, as you think, something truly major?

And again, insisting that a character who has never refused a discussion must refuse a discussion is a fools argument.

It doesn''t matter whether he would or not. Its whether Tram decides parson is likely to accept a call from a person who is calling just to make him a humiliating offer.

As it is, Parson probably wouldn't have taken the call...he doesn't think parley is possible and any parley undertaken simply to humiliate GK. He's planning for victory....not talks.

To put it another way....why would Tram think that Parson would accept a call from him? From Trams pov, Parson likely knows the Royals rep and their usual reason for parley in this situation. Why would the GK warlords accept the term to lend JS an Archon so he communicate and humiliate their CWL? Put that term in the pre conditions and there is a fair chance he'll either get back the response "No" or "Why?" - one of which leads to a fight where he gains nothing, the other to the parley.

[drachefly]

And no reason to pay attention to a lost force.

Oh come ON. Do you seriously think he'd just write them off and not even pay attention? You're overplaying your hand here.

[Smoker]

To put it another way....why would Tram think that Parson would accept a call from him?

Because GK forces are still there. If the enemy CWL really had given up all hope, to the point where he's just sulking in his tower thinking "Fine! Croak them all! But dont expect me to watch!" then why doesn't he disband them all and deny the Jetstone units the considerable experience they will gain from slaughtering a horde of Dwagons and highlevel warlords and Casters?

From Tram's point of view, the GK authority could quite possibly be prepared to beg for terms. Certainly they have not given up all hope of a resolution, and since the general opinion is that Tram couldn't reasonably expect an exploit, that leaves him with one logical conclusion to justify the continued existance of the GK forces... starts with a P.

But I believe I have raised this point before.

From a different perspective, if a humiliating parley is the standard course of action in these types of situations, then clearly other CWLs have endured it - why would Tramennis think GK would act any differently?

[Kyrt]

Because GK forces are still there. If the enemy CWL really had given up all hope, to the point where he's just sulking in his tower thinking "Fine! Croak them all! But dont expect me to watch!" then why doesn't he disband them all and deny the Jetstone units the considerable experience they will gain from slaughtering a horde of Dwagons and highlevel warlords and Casters?

Meaningless....he may just want to cause as much damage as possible but can't until free to cause damage. That experience will also be shared between several hundred archers and possibly some ground troops. Some game systems would also award XP simply by defeating GK, although Erfworld seems to require a kill. Even so, 600 archers and 4 casters share the XP for...40 dwagons and riders? 50? You'll note they didn't disband their ground troops at the bridge either and those troops also fought a battle lost before they began.

GKs quandry could thus be....cause as much damage as possible, or give each of several hundred archers a limited XP boost. From Trams pov, the quandry is "are they still there because they want to talk or are they still there because they want to cause as much damage as possible?"

From a different perspective, if a humiliating parley is the standard course of action in these types of situations, then clearly other CWLs have endured it - why would Tramennis think GK would act any differently?

What makes you think other CWLs would be involved in other such parleys as a matter of routine? Most other such parleys probably took place warlord to warlord, just as is happening here, because they happeend to be the in hex forces and didn't require CWL intervention.

[tennisplaya]

I'm sure this won't pertain to whatever discussions lurk on page 9, but I was thinking about when Parson was promoted to a field unit, how he was hurrying up stairs and then suddenly it got easier. I wonder if that's foreshadowing of him being able to run up the stairs of Jetstone's tower, killing everybody en route.

[atalex]

From a different perspective, if a humiliating parley is the standard course of action in these types of situations, then clearly other CWLs have endured it - why would Tramennis think GK would act any differently?

I just find this whole idea that "a humiliating parley is the standard course of action" to be very strange No one has said that in character. What Ossomer said was that Slately would order ceremonial surrender terms in this case because Slately is never personally involved in battles and this was an extremely important battle taking place in front of all his nobles at the climax of a protracted campaign that had threatened the survival of his side. I suspect that he also anticipated such humiliating ceremonial terms because that was probably what Ossomer himself would have offered if he were still CWL. Jack added the personal spin that such terms were a sign of the vanity that was inherent in the Royal character, and he conveniently (for the plot, anyway) left out the fact that there were specific political considerations which Ossomer thought made a legitimate parlay unlikely.

To put this into perspective, imagine that the Nazis had marched their entire army to the outskirts of Paris, only to suddenly and unexpectedly run out of gas, ammo and supplies. Because that's what happened here: Gobwin Knob, the most terrifying military force in living memory and an existential threat to the entire Royal Mandate, marched its way to within literal spitting distance of the King of Jetstone and was within minutes of ending the JS side. And then, suddenly, miraculously, they get stuck. Stuck in what appears to be a no-win, hopeless situation. Of course Slately's going to gloat, just like Field Marshall Petain would have gloated before "magnanimously" accepting a German surrender, probably with some humiliating terms thrown in to weaken Germany's capacity to rebuild.

None of that has any bearing on how diplomatic overtures and parleys would work in Erfworld or in our world in situations where one side does not seem to have an overwhelming strategic advantage over the other.

[atalex]

In the interests of showing open-mindedness, I will respectfully disagree with this position. I can easily imagine Parson taking part in a parley.

In a serious parley? Yes. Probably. So long as it had greater chance of victory/success than atatcking. Right now, he knows the Royals rep and doesn't consider a parley with JS to be viable. As far as Tram is aware, however, GK likely knows the royals rep. As such, Parson - from Trams pov - has zero reason to talk to him. And no reason to pay attention to a lost force.

I should have said instead "I can easily imagine circumstances under which Parson would take part in a parley." Imagine for a moment that Parson hadn't come up with the food fight yet. Imagine that he was sitting there furiously trying to think of a strategy that might work, when suddenly, Maggie tells him that JS wants to parley directly with him. I can easily imagine him taking the call. It would give him the chance to gain intel, to do psy ops, to bluff, and maybe, possibly, negotiate something better than annihilation of his forces. If nothing else, it will let him stall for time while he thinks of something. Maybe JS's "humiliating terms" will trigger some inspiration and provide the means to trick JS into defeat. Who knows? In the end, though, it doesn't matter, because Parson did come up with the food fight, a stratagem specifically designed to use parley as a cover. And once he set that in motion, there was never any possibility that he would seriously parley because doing so would require him to abort the food fight (the only way out he sees) on the mere hope that JS would offer acceptable terms.

[multilis]

"And once he set that in motion, there was never any possibility that he would seriously parley because doing so would require him to abort the food fight"

I disagree. The food fight failed if Wanda croaked, or Wanda was incapitated and Jack croaked or was incapacitated, or someone got a lucky shot with arrows, or several other things went wrong. It was the option of choice because he knew of no better option. Rough guess is it only had 40% chance of success.

If a Parley in earnest shifted concern that Charlie is biggest threat, then *possible* some deal could have been reached, or at least some understanding that would change the outcome drastically.

Two pieces of info changing hands: Charlie was behind Kingsworld, and Charlie has 600 archons and only 1 city. We already Jetstone nearly bankrupt from Charlie prices, Hagar arm twisted to lose much or army and Sammy, TV offer they could not accept and Charlie's attempts on GK, Jillian cut off and boyfriend targetted... everyone has some reason to form an anti-Charlie coalition.

[Kyrt]

I disagree. The food fight failed if Wanda croaked, or Wanda was incapitated and Jack croaked or was incapacitated, or someone got a lucky shot with arrows, or several other things went wrong. It was the option of choice because he knew of no better option. Rough guess is it only had 40% chance of success.

Risky? Yes. But it had a chance to suceed. For Parson to have accepted the parley, however, it would have been because he thought it would, in some way, have increased its chances of success. For him to have called it off, he would have to know that Trams parley was a: in ernest and b: likely to give him a better return than the fight. Since his plan was to wait for parley to start before attacking, you may conceivably have reached point a....Parson talks to Tram...but by the time point B arrived, Parson would have had the attack already underway.

There wasn't much chance of him ever bargaining seriously and because of that, little chance he would ever accept Trams call. Which is different from saying Tram shouldn't have tried.