Book 2 – Page 52

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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Smoker » Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:28 pm

Kyrt wrote:
Smoker wrote:Because GK forces are still there. If the enemy CWL really had given up all hope, to the point where he's just sulking in his tower thinking "Fine! Croak them all! But dont expect me to watch!" then why doesn't he disband them all and deny the Jetstone units the considerable experience they will gain from slaughtering a horde of Dwagons and highlevel warlords and Casters?


Meaningless....he may just want to cause as much damage as possible but can't until free to cause damage. That experience will also be shared between several hundred archers and possibly some ground troops. Some game systems would also award XP simply by defeating GK, although Erfworld seems to require a kill. Even so, 600 archers and 4 casters share the XP for...40 dwagons and riders? 50? You'll note they didn't disband their ground troops at the bridge either and those troops also fought a battle lost before they began.

GKs quandry could thus be....cause as much damage as possible, or give each of several hundred archers a limited XP boost. From Trams pov, the quandry is "are they still there because they want to talk or are they still there because they want to cause as much damage as possible?"


GK forces at the bridge were allowed to fight to the death because they could still damage the enemy. They wouldn't win, but they'd still take some on the way down, which is less to deal with later on.

Currently, the GK forces in the airspace cant do jack. So they cant even peg a few archers on the way down, or burn a few buildings. They best they can do is crap, which they can do anytime. The fact that they haven't means....

On the topic of "The XP isn't worth so much, so GK might just as well let JS have it." Imagine if the casters drain the tower defenses and their own juice, then a small number of Archers peg all the remaining forces. You at least beef your casters up, and we KNOW how valuable that can be. You cant discount the value of the XP here.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Oberon » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:23 am

Kyrt wrote:As it is, Parson probably wouldn't have taken the call.
And you have once again decided, strictly because it supports your position to do so, that Parson would break with all precedent and refuse to take a call from Tram. If he isn't willing to speak with Tram, why parlay at all? Why didn't Parson just refuse to position his troops and dispel foolamancy and just bomb away? The only logical conclusion is that Parson also wants to talk. So why keep insisting that Parson would refuse? Perhaps it is because without this insistence on out of character and never before witnessed behavior, your position doesn't make any sense?
Kyrt wrote:Its a gameworld...why care about minions?
Why care about minions? Because they cost. They cost both time and shmuckers, both of which are rare resources. You can never replace lost time. And the value of a leveled unit or warlord is far greater than the time spent popping it. And in case you haven't noticed, Jetstone is desperately short on shmuckers.
Kyrt wrote:Plus, its a minor inconvenience -
Ah yes, keep repeating the words "minor" and "inconvenience" and maybe you'll convince someone, other than yourself. Your attempts to make trivializing labels stick don't make the loss of the atrium and the units under the yellow poop any less significant.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby elrolfe » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:44 am

Oberon wrote:
Kyrt wrote:As it is, Parson probably wouldn't have taken the call.
And you have once again decided, strictly because it supports your position to do so, that Parson would break with all precedent and refuse to take a call from Tram. If he isn't willing to speak with Tram, why parlay at all? Why didn't Parson just refuse to position his troops and dispel foolamancy and just bomb away? The only logical conclusion is that Parson also wants to talk. So why keep insisting that Parson would refuse? Perhaps it is because without this insistence on out of character and never before witnessed behavior, your position doesn't make any sense?


Or maybe it's because when Parson was told of the conditions of parlay, he couldn't believe how lucky he was. After all, he's just received a demand from the opposing side to position his forces right where they can do the most damage. A move that would have been very suspicious in other circumstances. Add in the order for Ossomer to simply stall in the parlay, and the evidence points to Parson not being interested in talking with Tram at this point. Remember, this has only been a few minutes since Parson talked to Jack and learned that any parlay would likely be some token offer of a humiliating outcome. Parson is still in the same desperate situation that he was when Vanna ended GK's turn prematurely. He's come up with an option that might preserve his forces, and he's taking it. If the enemy demands help his position, so much the better. Parson's goal here is to preserve the lives of the people he's responsible for. That much is clear to me from his conversation with Maggie when he noted that all the miniatures on the board were real people. Parson, as chief warlord, is directly responsible for those people. When someone else was CWL, he could rationalize that he was only suggesting plans and that it wasn't his responsibility. Now that he holds the title again, he has to face the fact that the choices he makes directly affects the lives of the people under his command. After talking with Jack, he believes that conversing with Tram would be a waste of time, so he is moving forward with his plan. And why wouldn't he trust Jack's advice? Jack still knows a lot more about how Erfworld works than Parson does. Parson had no intention of entering into any serious parlay with Jetstone. His goal was to preserve as much of his force as possible. Nothing else.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Lamech » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:51 am

Its a gameworld...why care about minions? Plus, its a minor inconvenience - they aren't going to give up their parley for that. Nor can they do anything to stop it without talking to somebody. Noones saying they would be happy about it. But what is it that makes you think they see this as a truly major issue? They were anf are going to take losses this turn no matter what they do and were expecting it...just at the bridge. Where is the indication that this sudden attack is indeed, as you think, something truly major?
Even if they have to get rid of some units they are not worthless. First sourmanders and such can be harvested and used to make rations and save shmuckers. Second they lose some choice in what they lose. Instead of being able to preferentially get rid of low levels or less useful units types for the coming battles. Finally they can sell units to their allies. Translovito needs forces badly, possibly Haggar if they can get a good cease-fire.
Even if they can't sustain their forces they can still get SOMETHING. And Jetstone is in dire straights. They need everything they can get.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Oberon » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:43 am

elrolfe wrote:Add in the order for Ossomer to simply stall in the parlay, and the evidence points to Parson not being interested in talking with Tram at this point. Remember, this has only been a few minutes since Parson talked to Jack and learned that any parlay would likely be some token offer of a humiliating outcome. Parson is still in the same desperate situation that he was when Vanna ended GK's turn prematurely. He's come up with an option that might preserve his forces, and he's taking it. If the enemy demands help his position, so much the better. Parson's goal here is to preserve the lives of the people he's responsible for. That much is clear to me from his conversation with Maggie when he noted that all the miniatures on the board were real people. Parson, as chief warlord, is directly responsible for those people. When someone else was CWL, he could rationalize that he was only suggesting plans and that it wasn't his responsibility. Now that he holds the title again, he has to face the fact that the choices he makes directly affects the lives of the people under his command. After talking with Jack, he believes that conversing with Tram would be a waste of time, so he is moving forward with his plan. And why wouldn't he trust Jack's advice? Jack still knows a lot more about how Erfworld works than Parson does. Parson had no intention of entering into any serious parlay with Jetstone. His goal was to preserve as much of his force as possible. Nothing else.
Despite Parson's conclusions about Tram's intent with the parley, Parson would have accepted a call and would have conducted a conversation with Tram. We have as evidence Parson's 100% history of conducting such conversations. And Parson is smart enough to recognize an out when it presents itself. The falling units exploit was a huge risk, and Parson knew that it had/has a great chance of costing as much as it gains. But a legitimate offer of terms from Tram, without the insults, would have been listened to in the spirit with which it was offered.

At any point Parson could have ordered the yellows to begin bombing. And if they took some arrow or tower fire while positioning themselves, big deal. You screen them with dwagons of other colors to preserve the crapping capability, and then you harvest just as was done. Dwagons killed by arrows or tower fire just interfere with the coordinated harvesting, they don't really impact the plan at all.

So there is no harm at all, and a lot of potential gain, for Parson to hold a discussion with Tram. As you said, Parson is just trying to preserve his forces. But that only works if Tram asks for a discussion, because otherwise Parson is correct to conclude that this is the typical royal parley and initiate his exploit.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Smoker » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:37 am

Oberon wrote:But a legitimate offer of terms from Tram, without the insults, would have been listened to in the spirit with which it was offered.


I love that line. Well said.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Kyrt » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:39 am

Smoker wrote:GK forces at the bridge were allowed to fight to the death because they could still damage the enemy. They wouldn't win, but they'd still take some on the way down, which is less to deal with later on.


And the reason this rationale is invalid for the strike force above JS is....?

Currently, the GK forces in the airspace cant do jack.


Until JS attacks. At which point...they CAN defend themselves and they are free to do damage.

On the topic of "The XP isn't worth so much, so GK might just as well let JS have it." Imagine if the casters drain the tower defenses and their own juice, then a small number of Archers peg all the remaining forces. You at least beef your casters up, and we KNOW how valuable that can be. You cant discount the value of the XP here.


XP always has value. The question is will GK prefer to do some damage and let the JS forces gain some XP. We don't know how much XP they can get. All we can say is that it'll be shared between 600 archers...which means, individually, they probably don't get a lot.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby joosy » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:40 am

These discussions remind me of heated arguments in the computer lab in college back in the late 80's.
"Gandalf should have just had the Eagles fly the ring right to Mount Doom"
"Sauron is an idiot for not thinking that destruction of the ring was a possibility"
"Where are the rest of the wizards who were sent to protect MIddle-Earth?"
My answer to them was always the same 'Because the plot didn't call for it/them."
I won't even get into the WarGames movie arguments.

Posting on the forums should be fun.
If some posts get you all worked up and angry, I give you the sage advice from Mystery Science Theater 3000:
"If you're wondering how he eats and breathes
And other science facts,
Just repeat to yourself "It's just a show,
I should really just relax"
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Smoker » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:46 am

Kyrt wrote:
smoker wrote:Currently, the GK forces in the airspace cant do jack.

Until JS attacks. At which point...they CAN defend themselves and they are free to do damage.


Is this correct? Forgive me, but I dont recall anything about dwagon breath crossing zone borders off turn, even as defense. If you (or anyone else) can link me to something I've missed, I will be happy to review this point.

The reason I dont think it holds, is because if this were the case, then Parson would be wise to send a few dwagons on a suicide run into the tower to try to fry Slately. He's right there on the balcony (or was, until very recently), and archers are already attacking, so if what you say is canon, I wonder why Parson let it slide?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby joosy » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:48 am

Kyrt wrote:
Currently, the GK forces in the airspace cant do jack.


Until JS attacks. At which point...they CAN defend themselves and they are free to do damage.


As long as their attackers are in the same city zone. If they truly could attack across zones after being attacked, then the red and purple dwagon breath/sound attacks could be brought into play and could raze the tower.

Remember that one of the very few exceptions to attacking across zones/hexes is for units defending a city off-turn.
If you need proof please read:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-06-09.jpg 2nd to last paragraph.
This was demonstrated in Caesar's recount of his retaking of Chocula. After Transylvito initiated the attack, Chocula defending units could attack his units in the adjoining hex even though it was not their turn.

Remember this simple rule: If it is NOT your turn,you cannot attack/move across hexes or city zones of cities you don't control. There are very few specific exceptions to this rule.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Smoker » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:50 am

joosy wrote:These discussions remind me of heated arguments in the computer lab in college back in the late 80's.
"Gandalf should have just had the Eagles fly the ring right to Mount Doom"

Haha, I had this discussion with my gf just yesterday. :lol:
Eagles dont have the will power to resist the ring - they would have taken it back to their nest, lol.

Ooh, and thanks for the link joosy ;)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Kyrt » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:54 am

Oberon wrote:And you have once again decided, strictly because it supports your position to do so, that Parson would break with all precedent and refuse to take a call from Tram.


He has no reason to. He is also planning a battle. Precedent also has him making and accepting calls based on his needs. He talked to Charlie to make deals. He talked to Ansom for psyops. In short, on his terms.

If he isn't willing to speak with Tram, why parlay at all?


Because GK can't initiate the attack...they have to wait for JS.

Why didn't Parson just refuse to position his troops and dispel foolamancy and just bomb away?


Because he'll do more damage if his forces attack together once JS attacks them.

The only logical conclusion is that Parson also wants to talk.


Ridiculous. GK is hanging around because it can't initiate action. GK can disband to deny the JS archers XP or it can hang around until JS attacks and then kill as many as they can. Pick one. They didn't disband at the bridge to deny JS XP so precedent suggests this time they will also wait until they can do damage.

As for why Parson would refuse? First...the main point is, does Tram think Parson would answer? He knows the Royals rep and he has already refused an Alliance this turn. Second, as to whether or not Parson would actually refuse - he doens't think they can parley with JS, he knows the Royals rep, he's in the midst of planning a battle and this time, his plan doesn't involve psyops. The question is not if he will actually answer....the question is if he thinks he'll gain some advantage for his plan by agreeing. If he concludes that yes, there will be some advantage...he'll take the call.

Why care about minions? Because they cost. They cost both time and shmuckers, both of which are rare resources. You can never replace lost time. And the value of a leveled unit or warlord is far greater than the time spent popping it. And in case you haven't noticed, Jetstone is desperately short on shmuckers.


Yes...which means less upkeep will be a bonus. And soldiers are meant to be used in battle. Again...where do you get the idea this is a MAJOR concern instead of an irritation?

Ah yes, keep repeating the words "minor" and "inconvenience" and maybe you'll convince someone, other than yourself. Your attempts to make trivializing labels stick don't make the loss of the atrium and the units under the yellow poop any less significant.
[/quote]

What makes you think they are significant in the first place? The troops aren't going to be used in this battle to any great degree. The building can be repaired and JS was prepared for losses anyway.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Kyrt » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:57 am

Lamech wrote:Even if they have to get rid of some units they are not worthless.


They not worthless. But they are expendable.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Kyrt » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:03 am

Oberon wrote:Despite Parson's conclusions about Tram's intent with the parley, Parson would have accepted a call and would have conducted a conversation with Tram.


Possible.

Certain? No.

We have as evidence Parson's 100% history of conducting such conversations.


Which isn't 100% proof.

And Parson is smart enough to recognize an out when it presents itself.


Which this isn't.

The falling units exploit was a huge risk, and Parson knew that it had/has a great chance of costing as much as it gains. But a legitimate offer of terms from Tram, without the insults, would have been listened to in the spirit with which it was offered.


No. It wouldn't have been. Because as Parson was picking up the phone, he would also have been signalling the attack to start. He had no interest in talking. He had no interest in parley. He had an out of his own and he was not likely to blow that off on a parley with people he cannot trust who have a history of talking simply to make ludicrous demands.

If Parson has no interest in parley beyond stalling Tram and Slately while his attack begins...why would he want to talk with them? Ossomer can do that just as well.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Smoker » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:14 am

Kyrt wrote:The question is not if he will actually answer....the question is if he thinks he'll gain some advantage for his plan by agreeing. If he concludes that yes, there will be some advantage...he'll take the call.


Tramennis has every reason to believe that Parson will gain from accepting the call. He sees units waiting around for the parley. Again we come back to the point of "They are there to either attack off turn or to parley."

Lemme know when you find that link.

Kyrt wrote:
oberon wrote:Despite Parson's conclusions about Tram's intent with the parley, Parson would have accepted a call and would have conducted a conversation with Tram.


Possible.

Certain? No.


No less possible than asking for a thinkagram after having tried to turn Ossomer.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Smoker » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:21 am

Kyrt wrote:Yes...which means less upkeep will be a bonus. And soldiers are meant to be used in battle. Again...where do you get the idea this is a MAJOR concern instead of an irritation?


I think the point is, that Jetstone are low on Shmuckers. To get more Shmuckers they need more cities. To get more cities, they need troops to take them. Without troops, Jetstone have no way of taking back any cities, and with few cities remaining, their ability to pop new troops for this purpose is diminished.

Those troops are not a burden on Jetstone, they are their hope. Hope which is now covered in poo.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby effataigus » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:07 pm

Smoker wrote:Those troops are not a burden on Jetstone, they are their hope. Hope which is now covered in poo.


:lol: I hope the Erfworld movies are narrated by Morgan Freeman (playing Hubble, a neutral lookamancer from the MK)... and that he uses this line.

But odd to cite JS's problematic upkeep and troop loss problems in the same breath, since the first problem alleviates the second.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Ansan Gotti » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:10 pm

Oberon wrote:Ah, yes. The old Jetstone "We welcome the slaying of our troops and the destruction of our atrium, because we're too poor to support them anyway" argument. I like this one the best.


One of your largest shortcomings in discussion/debate is that you set up straw men far too often. No one is claiming Jetstone welcomed this. Based on the below, however:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -06-24.jpg

It is canon that Jetstone has been having major money problems, has been disbanding some units, and harvesting others.

Grunt infantry pop at a rate of approximately six-eight per turn per city:

http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... reaker.jpg

Accordingly, even though yes, there is a preference to avoid having troops needlessly killed (a preference expressed by Tramennis' order to evacuate the atrium), no, it is not a big honkin' tragedy that should cause an overreaction freakout mass extermination (and I can cite numerous examples of this position being put forward) that would completely void Tramennis' original plan to use the GK air units as a bargaining chip for a negotiation.

I will also note that no one has rebutted a fine poster's previous comment from a few threads ago that a ton of time had already elapsed before the discussion with Ossomer started, thus bolstering the contention that Jetstone thought it had all the time in the world, and undermining the contention that there was a time-sensitive element to the negotiation such that Tramennis should have laid all his cards on the table immediately (and again, I can cite numerous examples of this position being put forward, while numerous people have responded that that would have weakened Tramennis' bargaining position).

At the end of the day, we can have a legitimate disagreement on the particular nuances of diplomacy strategy -- and I feel that I am being generous to the "lay all the cards on the table immediately" side of the argument by calling it legitimate -- but can you at least see that the very fact that we can have a legitimate disagreement about it takes this out of the realm of "idiot" into the realm of "reasonable person making a mistake" (with the mistake primarily being revealed with omniscience or hindsight)?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:26 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:At the end of the day, we can have a legitimate disagreement on the particular nuances of diplomacy strategy (and I feel that I am being generous to the "lay all the cards on the table immediately" side of the argument by calling it legitimate)


Oooh, zing.

So anyway, is this discussion legitimate or you patiently trying to enlighten them dunderheads or what?

My take on it is that there's a whole thread about it elsewhere and it's better served at that place. Though other people have said, are saying, and will say what I'd say on the topic. The big problem is, there's roughly three areas of contention (time constraints; contact protocol; bargaining power) and all of them reached a state where, really, it's just going in circles. By now, for either side, either you see it, or you don't.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Ansan Gotti » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:28 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Oooh, zing.

So anyway, is this discussion legitimate or you patiently trying to enlighten them dunderheads or what?

My take on it is that there's a whole thread about it elsewhere and it's better served at that place. Though other people have said, are saying, and will say what I'd say on the topic. The big problem is, there's roughly three areas of contention (time constraints; contact protocol; bargaining power) and all of them reached a state where, really, it's just going in circles. By now, for either side, either you see it, or you don't.


I wasn't aware of the other thread (where is it, by the way EDIT never mind, found it). I'd be happy to participate over there, instead. Here, it was more of a comment by Oberon which I found objectionable. Given the frequency of that occurrence, I suppose I should seriously consider the suggestion made by another poster to add him to my ignore list.

As for your comment, "By now, for either side, either you see it, or you don't," I think that's partially true, but given that I'm just trying to cast reasonable doubt on the "Tramennis is an idiot" contention (I think he's a good CW, but I will settle for merely average for the purposes of having an easier rhetorical proposition to establish), I think the existence of a legitimate discussion which has gone on for this long is pretty solid support for my position.
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