Book 2 – Page 52

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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:39 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:As for your comment, "By now, for either side, either you see it, or you don't," I think that's partially true, but given that I'm just trying to cast reasonable doubt on the "Tramennis is an idiot" contention (I think he's a good CW, but I will settle for merely average for the purposes of having an easier rhetorical proposition to establish), I think the existence of a legitimate discussion which has gone on for this long is pretty solid support for my position.


:lol: If your position is "a controversial topic is the alleged possession by Trem of an Idiot Ball", then that's cheating.

I mean, by now it will take a superhuman effort to convince us that that discussion did not, in fact, take place, and we were all sharing knitting tips or something.

EDIT: so then, the battle's on. I repeat, at the mo', Slately's escape looks as good as assured, so the question is what will Parson (fail to?) do. Something else I wonder is what goes on in Transylvito.

I mean, Don should be ecstatic. All those dwagons- now you see them, now you don't. Surely the JS AA defenses made minced meat of GK's airforce. Eat that Caesar! What, you didn't see the arrows? Well the batcam needs an upgrade or two; we'll worry 'bout it later. Now let's party.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Ansan Gotti » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:42 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote: :lol: If your position is "a controversial topic is the alleged possession by Trem of an Idiot Ball", then that's cheating.

I mean, by now it will take a superhuman effort to convince us that that discussion did not, in fact, take place, and we were all sharing knitting tips or something.


I don't think it's cheating; evidence that otherwise reasonable people are disagreeing on a matter tends to support the reality being somewhere in the middle, rather than one extreme being validated.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:46 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:I don't think it's cheating; evidence that otherwise reasonable people are disagreeing on a matter tends to support the reality being somewhere in the middle, rather than one extreme being validated.


I'm sure there's a reasonable counter-case to be made against that as a general principle, but for now I'm lazy and will just paraphrase movie critic Mark Kermode: everyone's got their opinion; I just happen to be right. :P
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Ansan Gotti » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:50 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:EDIT: so then, the battle's on. I repeat, at the mo', Slately's escape looks as good as assured, so the question is what will Parson (fail to?) do. Something else I wonder is what goes on in Transylvito.

I mean, Don should be ecstatic. All those dwagons- now you see them, now you don't. Surely the JS AA defenses made minced meat of GK's airforce. Eat that Caesar! What, you didn't see the arrows? Well the batcam needs an upgrade or two; we'll worry 'bout it later. Now let's party.


All I can say is, I can't wait for a text update from Don's court.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Turtlewing » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:57 pm

Speculating on the parley is pretty pointless because Tram didn't have enough information to make a reasonable offer.

Tram thought GK was helpless to save any of their units, or make any strategic gains. As such any offer that lets GK mitigate their losses from "total" to "partial" is being generous and can be considered as a concession on the part of Jetstone in a parley.

Parson, however knows that there is a (risky) way he can make strategic gains, save some or all of his units, and even gain some of Jetstone's units. As such he would only view Tram's offer as a concession if its value outweighed the risk of his plan not working. In short, it's Wanda and the Pliers go free or no deal.

Even if Tram were willing to consider an offer that would have satisfied Parson, it's unlikely Slately would have allowed it. So in the end the conversation would have gone something like this:

Tram: I have an offer for you, we keep Wanda, the Pliers and the Archons. However we will generously allow you to retain the rest of your forces in exchange for a non aggression pact, and an agreement to negotiate future alliance and trade agreements in good faith.
parson: Why should I give you my most valuable unit?
Tram: because you have no choice.
Parson: I see, give me a few moments to call up the Tool and clear this with him.
Parson: (to Maggy) contact Wanda tell her "let's do lunch"
Tram: Lord Hampster?
Parson: (To Tram) Yes, just a moment... (to Siezmore) get ready to go through the portal
Tram: Lord Hampster?
Parson: (to Tram) Here it comes.
** The literal s**t hit's the metaphorical fan **
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby atalex » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:59 pm

Turtlewing wrote:Speculating on the parley is pretty pointless because Tram didn't have enough information to make a reasonable offer.

Tram thought GK was helpless to save any of their units, or make any strategic gains. As such any offer that lets GK mitigate their losses from "total" to "partial" is being generous and can be considered as a concession on the part of Jetstone in a parley.

Parson, however knows that there is a (risky) way he can make strategic gains, save some or all of his units, and even gain some of Jetstone's units. As such he would only view Tram's offer as a concession if its value outweighed the risk of his plan not working. In short, it's Wanda and the Pliers go free or no deal.

Even if Tram were willing to consider an offer that would have satisfied Parson, it's unlikely Slately would have allowed it. So in the end the conversation would have gone something like this:

Tram: I have an offer for you, we keep Wanda, the Pliers and the Archons. However we will generously allow you to retain the rest of your forces in exchange for a non aggression pact, and an agreement to negotiate future alliance and trade agreements in good faith.
parson: Why should I give you my most valuable unit?
Tram: because you have no choice.
Parson: I see, give me a few moments to call up the Tool and clear this with him.
Parson: (to Maggy) contact Wanda tell her "let's do lunch"
Tram: Lord Hampster?
Parson: (To Tram) Yes, just a moment... (to Siezmore) get ready to go through the portal
Tram: Lord Hampster?
Parson: (to Tram) Here it comes.
** The literal s**t hit's the metaphorical fan **


So Parson = Kirk and Tram = Khan? Love it. Only, Parson would have put his damn shields up in the first place.:)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby the_tick_rules » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:40 pm

now erf is crossing over into star trek? Now things are getting really crazy.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:12 pm

Erfworld has already crossed into Star trek ... don't you remember, back in book one, that elf caster doing vulcan magic hand trick on Parson? Wonder what that caster was...
3 Naughtymancers of different disciplines walk into a bar... wait, forget what I just said. A shockmancer and a croakamancer walk into a bar.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby effataigus » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:02 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Ansan Gotti wrote:I don't think it's cheating; evidence that otherwise reasonable people are disagreeing on a matter tends to support the reality being somewhere in the middle, rather than one extreme being validated.


I'm sure there's a reasonable counter-case to be made against that as a general principle, but for now I'm lazy and will just paraphrase movie critic Mark Kermode: everyone's got their opinion; I just happen to be right. :P


Sounds like that would usually be right to me, Ansan! However, while not a counterexample, it's worth pointing out that all bets are off when the argurers have fundamentally incorrect assumptions. As an example, I offer up a pretend argument that never happened many panels ago between Jack and Duncan. At question was how likely Wanda was to survive the turn. Duncan says 0%, Jack says 10%. Knowing more than they did about what was going on elsewhere, I'd have put Wanda's survival chance at 90%.

I wouldn't be overly surprised if, after a few more revelations, this whole argument shifts to how impossible it is that Tram could have been so foresighted when he provoked GK into attacking.

But I don't see how this is supposed to help my knitting :?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Oberon » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:04 pm

Kyrt wrote:
Oberon wrote:And you have once again decided, strictly because it supports your position to do so, that Parson would break with all precedent and refuse to take a call from Tram.
He has no reason to.
So your position may be summed up as follows: Despite a 100% historical record of accepting parley through whatever means, since it supports your position to believe so you insist that Parson must have broken both his historical record and his character development and refused to do as he has always done in the past.

Good luck with that position! :lol:
Kyrt wrote:
If he isn't willing to speak with Tram, why parlay at all?

Because GK can't initiate the attack...they have to wait for JS.
This is completely against the canon. Units must attack when they encounter non-aligned units. The only thing preventing this is leadership. Both sides here have leadership, and thus both sides here have the option to initiate combat at any moment. Remember the poop? No Jetstone unit was attacking a GK unit, and yet the GK units were free to poop away.
Kyrt wrote:
The only logical conclusion is that Parson also wants to talk.

Ridiculous. GK is hanging around because it can't initiate action.
Ridiculous. Re-read the strip.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby fractal » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:13 pm

Turtlewing wrote:Speculating on the parley is pretty pointless because Tram didn't have enough information to make a reasonable offer.

Tram thought GK was helpless to save any of their units, or make any strategic gains. As such any offer that lets GK mitigate their losses from "total" to "partial" is being generous and can be considered as a concession on the part of Jetstone in a parley.

Parson, however knows that there is a (risky) way he can make strategic gains, save some or all of his units, and even gain some of Jetstone's units. As such he would only view Tram's offer as a concession if its value outweighed the risk of his plan not working. In short, it's Wanda and the Pliers go free or no deal.

Yeah, I said pretty much the same thing a couple months ago; people largely ignored it. Perhaps Tramennis should have insisted on direct negotiation asap (although I don't think there was any particular reason for it), but even if he had, we know that negotiation would have broken down. His lack of omniscience regarding Parson's imminent attack canceled out with his lack of omniscience regarding Parson's expected success - it didn't matter what Tramennis did.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Decorus » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:53 pm

fractal wrote:
Turtlewing wrote:Speculating on the parley is pretty pointless because Tram didn't have enough information to make a reasonable offer.

Tram thought GK was helpless to save any of their units, or make any strategic gains. As such any offer that lets GK mitigate their losses from "total" to "partial" is being generous and can be considered as a concession on the part of Jetstone in a parley.

Parson, however knows that there is a (risky) way he can make strategic gains, save some or all of his units, and even gain some of Jetstone's units. As such he would only view Tram's offer as a concession if its value outweighed the risk of his plan not working. In short, it's Wanda and the Pliers go free or no deal.

Yeah, I said pretty much the same thing a couple months ago; people largely ignored it. Perhaps Tramennis should have insisted on direct negotiation asap (although I don't think there was any particular reason for it), but even if he had, we know that negotiation would have broken down. His lack of omniscience regarding Parson's imminent attack canceled out with his lack of omniscience regarding Parson's expected success - it didn't matter what Tramennis did.



Yeap Tram was screwed and the only way he could have known he was screwed was to break the 4th Wall and read the strip.
Charlie did warn him, but Tram couldn't and shouldn't trust Charlie.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Oberon » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:00 pm

Turtlewing wrote:Speculating on the parley is pretty pointless because Tram didn't have enough information to make a reasonable offer.
For what it's worth, I believe that you are correct. And I find no flaw or fault with the remainder of your post, either.

I never claimed that Tram and Parson would be able to come to terms. That is both deep into the realm of speculation (almost fan-fic, writing alternate histories) and unable to be discussed without huge amount of disclaimers and caveats. I usually try not to go there. I only felt very disappointed with Tram for failing to do what smart diplomats are supposed to be able to do: Get the other party to the table for a discussion. The situation, even allowing for individual character viewpoints, should have been clear to Tram.

All Tram needed to do was two simple things, both of which were tied together in a single causality:

1) He needed to recognize that Parson could attack at any moment, and then cogitate as to why Parson had not yet attacked. He twice remarked upon the former, but never once thought about the latter. Why did he fail to even speculate as to why Parson didn't take a few crap attacks at him as he entered the city, or bomb the tower, or otherwise attack? He speculated that Parson could try to drop crap on him, but never once thought about why it didn't happen. Isn't that strange to anyone besides me? The smart diplomat tries his best to get into the head of his opponent, to think as he thinks in order to predict his actions. And wondering why my opponent didn't try to kill the CWL when he was under my opponent's yellow dwagons seems like a good way to be thinking if you're trying to get into his head. But Tram fails at this.
2) He needed to avoid the trap of reading the same, conventional royal script of insult and then attack. And here he failed miserably, and instead precipitated the attack he recognized as being quite possible in point 1 above. Why did he fail so miserably? Why did he trot out the same, tired script which could only be perceived as a prelude to an attack, when he desperately wanted to parley in earnest? Again, the smart diplomat should be capable of seeing things as his opponent sees them. And if Tram had managed that, he should have anticipated that insults would have touched off an attack. This is, of course, entirely from the POV of Tram and his knowledge of the situation. No 4th wall breakage needed. Put yourself in this position and it should seem natural that Parson attacked when he did. But Tram fails at this.

Had Tram succeeded in achieving a meaningful discussion (beyond sniping at Ossomer, naturally, for those who will continue to insist that his snipes at Ossomer had the potential to do good things for Tram, even at the expense of the perpetuation of his Side), even had the parley broken down over the terms, I would have rejoiced in Tram's portrayal as a smart diplomat. Instead I've been left wondering why all the informed ability about Tram being a smart diplomat and an unconventional thinker was thrown out the window in exchange for a few cheap snipes at a brother he should have expected to receive as a part of the terms arrived at with GK. Both his priorities and his intelligence were subverted for a laugh track, and/or as a means to advance the plot (i.e. The Idiot Ball). And I find that to be a damn shame.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Dr Pepper » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:49 pm

Smoker wrote:
joosy wrote:These discussions remind me of heated arguments in the computer lab in college back in the late 80's.
"Gandalf should have just had the Eagles fly the ring right to Mount Doom"

Haha, I had this discussion with my gf just yesterday. :lol:
Eagles dont have the will power to resist the ring - they would have taken it back to their nest, lol.


Wow-- that explains the pteradactyl like creature that the chief nazgul rides, it's an eagle mutated by his ring!
Read, like there won't be a movie
Game, like the die rolls don't matter
Filk, like everyone is tone deaf anyway

10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby ryanroyce » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:56 am

Oberon wrote:
Turtlewing wrote:Speculating on the parley is pretty pointless because Tram didn't have enough information to make a reasonable offer.
For what it's worth, I believe that you are correct. And I find no flaw or fault with the remainder of your post, either.

I never claimed that Tram and Parson would be able to come to terms. That is both deep into the realm of speculation (almost fan-fic, writing alternate histories) and unable to be discussed without huge amount of disclaimers and caveats. I usually try not to go there. I only felt very disappointed with Tram for failing to do what smart diplomats are supposed to be able to do: Get the other party to the table for a discussion. The situation, even allowing for individual character viewpoints, should have been clear to Tram.

All Tram needed to do was two simple things, both of which were tied together in a single causality:

1) He needed to recognize that Parson could attack at any moment, and then cogitate as to why Parson had not yet attacked. He twice remarked upon the former, but never once thought about the latter. Why did he fail to even speculate as to why Parson didn't take a few crap attacks at him as he entered the city, or bomb the tower, or otherwise attack? He speculated that Parson could try to drop crap on him, but never once thought about why it didn't happen. Isn't that strange to anyone besides me? The smart diplomat tries his best to get into the head of his opponent, to think as he thinks in order to predict his actions. And wondering why my opponent didn't try to kill the CWL when he was under my opponent's yellow dwagons seems like a good way to be thinking if you're trying to get into his head. But Tram fails at this.


Eh, there are several logical explanations for why Tram wasn't attacked by the yellows on his way through the Atrium, not the least of which being that, at the time, GK's forces had no idea who Jetstone's new CWL was. For all they knew, the new CWL was already in the tower with Slately. Coming close behind, maybe it simply didn't occur to GK that they could have attacked Tram on his return until it was too late to do so (after all, it didn't occur to Tram at first, either). Third, there's also the chance that GK thought that even the meager offerings of a traditional Royal Parley would be the best they could hope for. All of these conclusions are a more logical than thinking that Gobwin Knob was planning to conquer Spacerock off-turn.

Oberon wrote:2) He needed to avoid the trap of reading the same, conventional royal script of insult and then attack. And here he failed miserably, and instead precipitated the attack he recognized as being quite possible in point 1 above. Why did he fail so miserably? Why did he trot out the same, tired script which could only be perceived as a prelude to an attack, when he desperately wanted to parley in earnest? Again, the smart diplomat should be capable of seeing things as his opponent sees them. And if Tram had managed that, he should have anticipated that insults would have touched off an attack. This is, of course, entirely from the POV of Tram and his knowledge of the situation. No 4th wall breakage needed. Put yourself in this position and it should seem natural that Parson attacked when he did. But Tram fails at this.


Yes, Tram recognized that GK still had one fruitless attack at their disposal. That's it. Even if they had cwapped all over Tramennis during his return, GK was still going to lose. Do not continue to ignore the fact that, in the eyes of everyone except Parson and Charlie (Jillian, Duncan, Jack, etc), GK was DOOMED. To the point that both Jack and Duncan were stunned by the notion that GK wasn't. Why should Tram, a rusty warlord at best, have had a different perception of events than Duncan, a much more experienced CWL? Furthermore, there was no logic to Parson's yellows cwapping all over the Atrium without the Banana Exploit and the Harvest Exploit to combo with it. I don't hesitate to point out that ABSOLUTELY NO ONE on this forum predicted either Exploit and we have more intel on Parson than anyone else. At best, we knew falling had to play into it somewhere, but no one figured out how. How could Tramennis have possibly predicted that insulting Ossomer's fashion sense would precipitate these Exploits and the Doom of his Capital?

Oberon wrote:Had Tram succeeded in achieving a meaningful discussion (beyond sniping at Ossomer, naturally, for those who will continue to insist that his snipes at Ossomer had the potential to do good things for Tram, even at the expense of the perpetuation of his Side), even had the parley broken down over the terms, I would have rejoiced in Tram's portrayal as a smart diplomat. Instead I've been left wondering why all the informed ability about Tram being a smart diplomat and an unconventional thinker was thrown out the window in exchange for a few cheap snipes at a brother he should have expected to receive as a part of the terms arrived at with GK. Both his priorities and his intelligence were subverted for a laugh track, and/or as a means to advance the plot (i.e. The Idiot Ball). And I find that to be a damn shame.


Do you really think that Parson would be put off in the least by Tram insulting Ossomer's fashion sense? Really? Parson couldn't have cared less and, given the barrel that GK was leaning over, it was hardly a deal-breaker in any case. As I've said before, Tramennis' only REAL mistake was believing wholeheartedly in his imminent victory, but one mistake does not make an Idiot Ball.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Oberon » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:49 am

ryanroyce wrote:Eh, there are several logical explanations for why Tram wasn't attacked by the yellows on his way through the Atrium, not the least of which being that, at the time, GK's forces had no idea who Jetstone's new CWL was. For all they knew, the new CWL was already in the tower with Slately. Coming close behind, maybe it simply didn't occur to GK that they could have attacked Tram on his return until it was too late to do so (after all, it didn't occur to Tram at first, either). Third, there's also the chance that GK thought that even the meager offerings of a traditional Royal Parley would be the best they could hope for. All of these conclusions are a more logical than thinking that Gobwin Knob was planning to conquer Spacerock off-turn.
First, GK had met Tram. They knew he was a Jetstone prince. Assuming that some unknown in the tower was now the Jetstone CWL is an illogical position. If Tram can look up and recognize the danger the yellows pose, surely the GK forces can look down and see the prince of Jetstone arriving in his Roo transport... Second, taking the position that GK didn't see an opportunity to attack is assuming that your opponent is a fool. This is not the thought processes of a smart diplomat. You need to assume that your opponent is as well aware of his options as you are, or you will constantly be surprised by his actions. Third, never assume that your opponent only hopes in desperation for your tender mercies. This is the thinking of a fool, and one who will be constantly surprised by the logical actions of your opponent which you ignore in favor of your own illogical assumptions.
ryanroyce wrote:Do not continue to ignore the fact that, in the eyes of everyone except Parson and Charlie (Jillian, Duncan, Jack, etc), GK was DOOMED.
I'm amused that you would decide to phrase it so, when I took great pains to describe the exact situation you now insist that I "continue to ignore." Why stand up such a weak straw man?
ryanroyce wrote:Furthermore, there was no logic to Parson's yellows cwapping all over the Atrium without the Banana Exploit and the Harvest Exploit to combo with it.
Wrong. The logic in such an attack was described by Tram himself: Do what you can, while you can. There is no reason to lose units which can better be lost while dealing damage to the enemy. And this is the attack option Tram needed to recognize and prevent. He wants to engage in dialogue, right? This is made clear. And to best engage in dialogue, it is best to avoid open conflict. This is simpleton logic that any smart diplomat should be able to arrive at with ease.
ryanroyce wrote:I don't hesitate to point out that ABSOLUTELY NO ONE on this forum predicted either Exploit [...]
I'll repeat, not that you'll listen, that Tram's reactions were completely idiotic even, and as I took pains to point out, in the strict light of what he knew, and in no sense did this judgement involve the 4th wall or reader knowledge.
ryanroyce wrote:How could Tramennis have possibly predicted that insulting Ossomer's fashion sense would precipitate these Exploits and the Doom of his Capital?
Tram has all the information he needed to predict that Parson would, no, should, attack once Tram communicated his adherence to the royal strategy of insult, then attack. This is the entire reason he is holding the idiot ball! He wanted to parley with Parson, and instead he instigated a conflict which may have made any parley impossible. And if you cannot see this, you are also holding the Idiot Ball.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby ftl » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:19 am

Oberon wrote:[
All Tram needed to do was two simple things, both of which were tied together in a single causality:

1) He needed to recognize that Parson could attack at any moment, and then cogitate as to why Parson had not yet attacked.


This. This and a thousand times this. This is EXACTLY the crux of the entire matter.

If Tram had realized that Parson could actually do something useful, then I would agree with any denigration of him, if he continued to act as he did.

However he did not. The question then is - how much should that be held against him when discussing his intelligence?

Consider this. Out of ALL the people watching that fight, the ONLY one who thought of that exploit was Parson. Don King and a roomful of Transylvito warlords didn't. They saw that the dwagons were trapped in airspace and thought the battle was won - Caesar still grumbled about Jillian, of course, but he didn't make any strong points about how Jetstone was now screwed. Jillian and Duncan didn't. Duncan said "if they lose the battle now, they deserve to" - in his mind, there was absolutely nothing that GK could have done, it was all up to Jetstone not to screw it up. Jack, who had spent an entire summer gaming scenarios with Parson, thought that their best plan was to use the dwagons as meat shields, throw up baffles, and hope Jetstone runs out of arrows. Slately still considers the battle won *even now*. Even Charlie didn't mention anything about an off-turn falling exploit - even his most dire warnings were generic, talking about how dangerous Parson is, but presenting no reason to believe that he was able to do anything in the current situation.

Are you saying that they are all idiots for not seeing that GK could use an exploit to fall?

Everyone was convinced that Parson COULD NOT do anything useful. Point 1 is where the entire hangup in this discussion occurs. I think it is completely natural and in-character for any erfworlder, even the smartest ones, to miss this.

He twice remarked upon the former, but never once thought about the latter. Why did he fail to even speculate as to why Parson didn't take a few crap attacks at him as he entered the city, or bomb the tower, or otherwise attack? He speculated that Parson could try to drop crap on him, but never once thought about why it didn't happen. Isn't that strange to anyone besides me?


Well, we don't know everything he though about. But no, given that we have reader omniscience, it doesn't seem strange. The ACTUAL reason was that, with the loss of Ansom, GK forces were in too much disarray to do anything at all. Wanda was being all fatalistic and not paying attention to the reality of the battle, all the other commanders up in airspace were decrypted and thus would defer to Wanda. Parson had just been appointed and wasn't watching the battle closely and had no idea the CW just walked under them.

Whether or not Tram considered it, "they're still in the process of switching CWs, and the new guy hasn't been caught up to speed yet and so nobody's really in charge" would be an obvious guess, and would in fact be correct. (Also, anyway, this entire thing happened before Tram had even heard of Parson - the parley with Charlie happened later.)

The smart diplomat tries his best to get into the head of his opponent, to think as he thinks in order to predict his actions. And wondering why my opponent didn't try to kill the CWL when he was under my opponent's yellow dwagons seems like a good way to be thinking if you're trying to get into his head. But Tram fails at this.


We don't know whether he did or didn't consider it; anyhow, the answer was trivial and boring, and wouldn't have added anything to the discussion even if Tram had figured it out. And it wouldn't have been notable enough to mention in-comic if he did.

This line of thought would only be notable if Tramennis made the *WRONG* conclusion from it (that there was some deep significance to the lack of attack). The right conclusion - that GK was in disarray - would have encouraged him to follow the path that he did in fact follow.

2) He needed to avoid the trap of reading the same, conventional royal script of insult and then attack. And here he failed miserably, and instead precipitated the attack he recognized as being quite possible in point 1 above. Why did he fail so miserably? Why did he trot out the same, tired script which could only be perceived as a prelude to an attack, when he desperately wanted to parley in earnest?


Because, re: point 1, like everybody else in his universe besides Parson (and maybe Charlie), he did not believe that GK could do anything of value to prevent him from continuing the negotiation at his leisure. He had been given no reason to believe he needed to avoid that trap - he felt he could correct that impression as the parley went on (since he was sure GK couldn't do anything).

Again, the smart diplomat should be capable of seeing things as his opponent sees them. And if Tram had managed that, he should have anticipated that insults would have touched off an attack.


Except, the insults DIDN'T touch off the attack. If he had seen things as Parson would see them, he would correctly guess that the smart CW would never fall for stupid mindgames like that.

And he'd be right. The insults didn't set off the attack. What set off the attack was the very act of parley - Parson was just using the parley as a distraction. He didn't even hear what Tram said to Ossomer, insults or no insults.

Again - this train of thought would lead Tram to change something ONLY if he reached the *WRONG* conclusion, that Parson was the sort of warlord to throw a tantrum in response to insults.

This is, of course, entirely from the POV of Tram and his knowledge of the situation. No 4th wall breakage needed. Put yourself in this position and it should seem natural that Parson attacked when he did. But Tram fails at this.


Putting myself in his situation, it seems entirely unnatural and impossible that he should be able to attack at all!

Literally everybody in his universe, besides Parson and maybe Charlie, were caught off-guard by what happened. Does this make erfworld an entire universe of idiot-ball-holders?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby ftl » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:35 am

Oberon" Second, taking the position that GK didn't see an opportunity to attack is assuming that your opponent is a fool. This is not the thought processes of a smart diplomat. [/quote]

Except, in this case, it was entirely correct. If I remember correctly, we have never any indication that Parson knew or noticed about Tram prancing through there. He was, at the time, busy devising his strategy.

If you're criticizing Tramennis for assuming his opponent made a mistake, you're literally criticizing him for being right!

[quote]I'm amused that you would decide to phrase it so, when I took great pains to describe the exact situation you now insist that I "continue to ignore." Why stand up such a weak straw man?[/quote]

Perhaps I misread your responses, but I believe you never described that exact situation. Are Jack, Jillian, Slately, Don King, and the rest ALSO idiots for not seeing that Parson could trigger a falling exploit?

You describe why you think the situation should have been obvious to Tramennis. However, the evidence in the comic is that everybody *else* missed it too. As far as I can tell, the two possible conclusions from that are:
1) They're all idiots.
2) Actually, it wasn't as obvious as you're making it seem.

We've had plenty of evidence that Jack isn't stupid. Maybe Jillian would be. But Don isn't either, he may be off his game with trusting Jillian but he's not an idiot. So, that leaves (2). That this blind spot isnt' at all obvious to any erfworlder, because it's fundamentally different than the way they think they know battles work.

You have not addressed this argument, because you have not answered the question of, if this were so obvous, why didn't Jack think of it? or why wasn't Don King frantically thinkagramming to Jillian telling her to go back and finish the job? why didn't Charlie say "hey, they could just fall down, y'know."? My answer is that because, since it was a clever trick that nobody expected, all of them missed it too. What's your answer, if you're saying that it's obvious? Are all these characters also holding idiot balls?

[quote][quote="ryanroyce wrote:
How could Tramennis have possibly predicted that insulting Ossomer's fashion sense would precipitate these Exploits and the Doom of his Capital?
Tram has all the information he needed to predict that Parson would, no, should, attack once Tram communicated his adherence to the royal strategy of insult, then attack. [/quote]

If he made that prediction, he'd be wrong. Because Parson ordered the attack BEFORE Tram ever communicated his adherence to that strategy.

This is the entire reason he is holding the idiot ball! He wanted to parley with Parson, and instead he instigated a conflict which may have made any parley impossible.


Tramennis did not instigate the conflict. He would know perfectly well that Ossomer would expect such banter from him, and he would probably expect that a smart warlord won't be fooled by useless word games.

Parson attacked NOT because of anything Tramennis said, but because he saw an off-turn movement exploit using decryption and the falling mechanic.

And if you cannot see this, you are also holding the Idiot Ball.


Gee, thanks for keeping the discussion civil, oberon, by calling us all idiots.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby atalex » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:59 am

ftl wrote:
And if you cannot see this, you are also holding the Idiot Ball.


Gee, thanks for keeping the discussion civil, oberon, by calling us all idiots.


Yeah, crap like that is why I foe'd him. At this point, he's like a terrier that won't let go of a chew toy he's decided is the most important thing in the world.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 52

Postby Durinix » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:59 am

Tramennis didn't go straight to the parley stage with Parson because he wanted information about turning decrypted units first. If those units could turn, that would have made a huge difference to what he would have been aiming for in parley.

His priority is information and understanding what's going on as he felt that the GK units were not a threat (clearly a wrong assumption). This is why the insults made perfect sense.

On a different aspect, I can't wait to see Parson level.
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