Book 2 – Page 53

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby teratorn » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:09 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Right you are, but on the same page Parson comments that if Wanda and co. waited at the bridge, that large column (presumably the Jetstone one they flew over) would overrun and destroy them.


But that was still with Jillian. Jestone would go after them with the fliers and the column. We already knew that Jestone would crush their ground forces (they did) and that the dwagons and archons would have a tough match against gwiffons.
Last edited by teratorn on Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
teratorn
 
Posts: 435
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 6:33 am
Location: Algarve

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby justamessenger » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:13 am

Wow, love the update!

Tramennis is showing *real* leadership re: strategy. He is implementing a classic holding/rearguard action to safeguard Slately's evacuation, along with the most powerful and expensive units (save himself) belonging to Jetstone (i.e. - the casters). Rob, thank you for showing that someone other than Parson *CAN* think strategically and execute appropriate tactics! (from a vet here, so I know whereof I speak, lol)

The first phase is to hold the line and retard the enemy's advance. Tramennis is accomplishing this by keeping a sizeable force in place to engage and likely disengage (or possibly have a running engagement/fighting retreat) GK's forces. From his actions in barring the gate after reconnoitering the atrium, it seems that he will probably pursue the idea of trying to preserve as much of his army as he can.

Thus, the second phase: Commit what troops MUST be committed in order to effectuate the first phase, while pulling the remaining forces out of harm's way.

To my mind, this is the first time that we have seen anyone other than Parson utilize this strategy, unless I am misremembering. In other words, Tramennis has enough sense to recognize that it is better to preserve what units he can than to waste them on a fruitless (but 'glorious') battle. The fact that he is wanting to save himself, rather than risk capture by GK is also laudable. After all, he is Jetstone's Chief Warlord, and it is pointless to fall in a battle that will not determine the outcome of the war. No noble self-sacrifice is needed if it will not turn the tide at a crucial nexus of events. If only Ansom or Ossomer had understood that...

Slately has had an epiphany, he has recognized that strength does not equate to effectiveness as a warlord, particularly when dealing with someone like Parson. Cunning, guile and intelligence (and the ability to use them all) are much more effective when facing an enemy as dynamic and damned near prescient as Parson. Let's just hope that Slately will have the luxury of making Tramennis his heir, and that Jetstone's new warlord can continue to harry and engage Parson on the intellectual level...

In other words, I LOVE IT!

Oh, and... WREQUIEM! HAHAHAHA!

Edit: I am really hoping some of the Great Thinkers on this forum will comment, lol. I am interested in hearing other perspectives on my thoughts.
Last edited by justamessenger on Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten."
- G.K. Chesterton

Special thanks to BLANDCorporatio for the awesome avatar!!
User avatar
justamessenger
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:52 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:18 am

teratorn wrote:But that was still with Jillian. Jestone would go after them with the fliers and the column. We already knew that Jestone would crush their ground forces (they did) and that the dwagons and archons would have a tough match against gwiffons.


I read that differently, as in when Parson says "column" he means Jetstone's infantry column, and whether anything else comes along is irrelevant; Ditto-powered archers can take down archons with some ease apparently, and Dwagons can only survive so long before croaking too. Plus, post-KW, Jetstone was assured that it could blast the Dwagon airforce out of the sky entirely.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
User avatar
BLANDCorporatio
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 3446
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:24 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby Goshen » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:20 am

Poor Ossomer. He's just sitting there emotionally crushed and his father confides in him that Tram, not Ansom, should have been leading. Ossomer's not even on that map. In the true, Earth, sense of the word, Ossomer is definitely a tool!
User avatar
Goshen
 
Posts: 200
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 10:02 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby badninja » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:25 am

Oh nice, I got a feeling that that call is going to be to Charlie for one reason, who else you gonna call? It has nothing to do with respect but probably past business dealings. I feel that Charlies role is not over and he has a greater role yet to play in this battle and the final outcome.

Oss is at a loss, he is too new to the side to understand is Chief Warlord and has little experience or knowledge about his battle field leader. He cannot simply fathom what his CW is planning or even thinking. His fellow warlords not only understand the who is their CW. They also understand the what of Parson is doing and the why, and trust in it. I feel that he is not long for this battle and hopefully his brother will be switching sides at its conclusion in an un-decrypted state. Having a living warlord that is not Wanda's play toy would be an immense help to GK.

Good update overall, Xin's art was superb once again and Rob's story telling keeps us all on the edge of our seats!
I came, I saw, I had fun!
badninja
YOTD + Erfabet + Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet + Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 305
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:46 am
Location: Tatooine

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby teratorn » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:31 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:I read that differently, as in when Parson says "column" he means Jetstone's infantry column, and whether anything else comes along is irrelevant; Ditto-powered archers can take down archons with some ease apparently, and Dwagons can only survive so long before croaking too. Plus, post-KW, Jetstone was assured that it could blast the Dwagon airforce out of the sky entirely.


Of course he means the infantry, but in the sense that then they'd have to also face the infantry. Irrelevant? Ansom beat Sammy's forces even without the dwagons, GK's ground forces weren't as strong as Jeststone's+Sammy's but they were still rather strong.

By the way, Parson was talking about Sammy's group, not Jetstone's army. Even then there was a chance of beating Sammy, Jetstone and Jillian in the teens.
Last edited by teratorn on Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
teratorn
 
Posts: 435
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 6:33 am
Location: Algarve

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby justamessenger » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:31 am

As to the healomancer, that is almost certainly Benjamin Franklin 'Hawkeye' Pierce. If the scrubs don't do it, then the martini is a dead giveaway.

Edit: The hair also looks like Hawkeye's...

As for Slately wanting to contact someone before leaving: 1) he is still a damned fool despite recognizing Tramennis' talents, as he should be evacuating NOW, and every moment he waits will have a concomitant impact on Jetstone's casualties; and 2) I guess we don't know *why* he needs to talk to someone. If it is to advise as to the changes in circumstances, it will most likely be Don King. If it is to bitch someone out, it will likely be Charlie. If it is to bemoan the fate of Royalty, then the Sofa King is most likely. Of course, something that we are overlooking might be a call to Stanley, his nemesis and leader of the side opposing his own. As of right now, I don't think we have enough information to make any type of informed prognostication on the recipient...
"Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten."
- G.K. Chesterton

Special thanks to BLANDCorporatio for the awesome avatar!!
User avatar
justamessenger
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:52 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby I<3ChocolateMilk » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:53 am

Totally just spitballing here, but wasn't there a text update at some point that hinted at a 4th prince/princess still kicking about somewhere? (Has this been retconned?) Well, not neccessarily kicking around, but it was never exactly clear what happened to them.

If not, is this "friend" going to be a Merlin-esque character who has been training the heir-apparent for the day that he/she must pull the proverbial sword from the stone?

I doubt that Slately would refer to Stanley as a "friend" in any sense of the word - in fact, I don't think there is enough sarcasm in the world for him to use the word in the same context as Stanley.
User avatar
I<3ChocolateMilk
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:43 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby ZevGun » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:55 am

drachefly wrote:So, it looks to me like Tram just reconnoitered in force (panel 4) and made an expeditious retreat (panel 5). At that point he judged, "No, not safe that way" and the plan is off. But the point is, the plan was sound. That it turned out not to work in the most fortunate way is nearly irrelevant.

Does anyone see an alternate interpretation?


I can see two possibilities:
1) he's preping for Slately's retreat
2) he's sizing up GK's army to determine if they should fight or flee (see dialogue in panel 4)

Either way, blocking the exit is just an attempt to buy time for any escapes or to organize the army.
ZevGun
Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:25 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby the_tick_rules » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:09 pm

They just can't stop insulting Ossomer cant they?
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
User avatar
the_tick_rules
 
Posts: 967
Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 11:36 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby Lamech » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:13 pm

Hmm... Tram wants the atrium and Wanda wants the dungeon. In theory neither should contest the other and both will take their objective. Parson gets in and Slately gets out.
I have a question, it certainly seems to me like Tram was sending the casters out with Slately. Was that your guys impression? Thats going to hurt hard when it comes to beating GK. The dittomancer doubles leadership. And can double attacks, and apparently can "double surviving units". The healomancer could give units extra HP, basically allowing them to lose multiple "lives" worth of hits; this is extra important because normally that would be the equivalent of extra units, but here it also means GK doesn't get new units. So effectively every extra "life" of hits is an extra Jetstone unit and less one GK unit. Same thing for the dollamancer, plus he gives a bonus, although only for their heavies.

So tactical analysis: While against the combined columns of Haggar, Jetstone and Jillian, GK's odds weren't great. In the teens if they had a city to defend themselves with. But when GK is actually in the garrison those precious archers (both columns were archer heavy) will be less effective, and bottlenecks will improve the effectiveness of breath weapons. Plus each one of the Jetstone casters (except maybe cubbins) is massively valuable and will have left the building. Also somehow I think that Haggar will be sitting this one out. At least until the winner is clear so they can suck up to said winner. On the other hand GK has lost some leadership (Ansom getting replaced), a worse chief warlord bonus. And I don't think they stole enough units to replace what was lost on the bridge.
So all in all I think GK is in a better position then the hypothetical GK vs. Jetstone+Haggar+Jillian.
Lamech
 
Posts: 1450
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby justamessenger » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:35 pm

ZevGun wrote:
drachefly wrote:So, it looks to me like Tram just reconnoitered in force (panel 4) and made an expeditious retreat (panel 5). At that point he judged, "No, not safe that way" and the plan is off. But the point is, the plan was sound. That it turned out not to work in the most fortunate way is nearly irrelevant.

Does anyone see an alternate interpretation?


I can see two possibilities:
1) he's preping for Slately's retreat
2) he's sizing up GK's army to determine if they should fight or flee (see dialogue in panel 4)

Either way, blocking the exit is just an attempt to buy time for any escapes or to organize the army.


I believe Tramennis mentioned the Tower Gate, which is unlikely to be the gate linked to the Atrium. If I recall correctly, he came in through the main gate, up the 'Main Way', and through the Atrium. I do not believe Tramennis would have suggested that his father fly into the teeth of the dwagons and GK's massed forces. It seems more likely that there is another exit from the tower where GK's troops are not going to bar the way.

Occam's Razor and all that...
"Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten."
- G.K. Chesterton

Special thanks to BLANDCorporatio for the awesome avatar!!
User avatar
justamessenger
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:52 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby Sixty » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:36 pm

Though unlikely it would be rather funny if Slately called Stanley.

Slately: You may have won THIS battle worm, but the war is not...

Stanley: We won?

Slately: I... you didn't know?

Stanley: I just made the hamster guy take care of it and went to go get a sandwich.

Slately: *Facepalm*
User avatar
Sixty
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:03 am
Location: Salisbury, Maryland

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby justamessenger » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:46 pm

Lamech wrote:Hmm... Tram wants the atrium and Wanda wants the dungeon. In theory neither should contest the other and both will take their objective. Parson gets in and Slately gets out.
I have a question, it certainly seems to me like Tram was sending the casters out with Slately. Was that your guys impression? Thats going to hurt hard when it comes to beating GK. The dittomancer doubles leadership. And can double attacks, and apparently can "double surviving units". The healomancer could give units extra HP, basically allowing them to lose multiple "lives" worth of hits; this is extra important because normally that would be the equivalent of extra units, but here it also means GK doesn't get new units. So effectively every extra "life" of hits is an extra Jetstone unit and less one GK unit. Same thing for the dollamancer, plus he gives a bonus, although only for their heavies.

So tactical analysis: While against the combined columns of Haggar, Jetstone and Jillian, GK's odds weren't great. In the teens if they had a city to defend themselves with. But when GK is actually in the garrison those precious archers (both columns were archer heavy) will be less effective, and bottlenecks will improve the effectiveness of breath weapons. Plus each one of the Jetstone casters (except maybe cubbins) is massively valuable and will have left the building. Also somehow I think that Haggar will be sitting this one out. At least until the winner is clear so they can suck up to said winner. On the other hand GK has lost some leadership (Ansom getting replaced), a worse chief warlord bonus. And I don't think they stole enough units to replace what was lost on the bridge.
So all in all I think GK is in a better position then the hypothetical GK vs. Jetstone+Haggar+Jillian.


I believe this is an incorrect assessment of Tramennis' goals: He does not wish to take the Atrium, he wishes to engage GK's forces, if he feels he can succeed in the battle. In other words, the objective is not land, but attrition.

As to the strategy of sending out the casters, given their rarity and a desire *not* to see them killed and decrypted, the choice of sending them out with Slately (which also supports *his* chance of making it out alive, thus allowing the side to live on) makes much more sense. Slately is the key element of Jetstone's survival. Not only does sending the casters with him improve the odds of JS's ability to continue, rather than fall, trump any tactical advantage they might need, it also deprives GK of the potential to net themselves more casters without cost/upkeep.

As to the actual battle likely to unfold in the hallways, corridors, etc., remember that bottlenecks can work both ways. JS can mass its archers and other ranged units behind corners and such. The confined hallways may significantly limit the maneuverability of the dwagons, which would, in turn reduce GK's ability to navigate the inside of the Tower quickly. Also, the force entering the Tower has to clear rooms and any and all side corridors to prevent ambushes on their softer targets (like casters, and potentially leadership).

The general rule of thumb is a 3:1 ratio for attackers vs. defenders. I am not certain that GK has sufficient strength to meet that ratio, particularly if JS has the advantage of leadership bonuse; however, it is not Tramennis' intent to push that advantage if there is no certainty of success. Again, I believe his goal will be to preserve as many of his troops as possible, and it takes a far smaller force to engage inside the Tower and effectively slow down GK's advance.

Of course, the wild card here is Parson. I am not yet clear on what role he might be able to play in the unfolding events, insofar as he might increase the overall effectiveness of GK forces, but may not be able to outmaneuver Tramennis if JS attempts to fight a delaying action rather than a head on battle.
"Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten."
- G.K. Chesterton

Special thanks to BLANDCorporatio for the awesome avatar!!
User avatar
justamessenger
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:52 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby cheeseaholic » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:54 pm

Archers without arrows would make poor combat troops. They've been firing for a while, and we didn't see any on screen order to cease fire.

The ditomancer's juice might be low, but I think sending the healomancer and carnymancer away is definitely a mistake I would keep them near the exit and use them as a repair station for injured units.

Of course, I don't know what step 2 is. Step 1 is retreat. Step 3 is rule from new capital. But step 2 is ???????.
cheeseaholic
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby GaryThunder » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:00 pm

The general rule of thumb is a 3:1 ratio for attackers vs. defenders. I am not certain that GK has sufficient strength to meet that ratio, particularly if JS has the advantage of leadership bonuse; however, it is not Tramennis' intent to push that advantage if there is no certainty of success. Again, I believe his goal will be to preserve as many of his troops as possible, and it takes a far smaller force to engage inside the Tower and effectively slow down GK's advance.


Remember that the Arkenpliers change the entire equation. Tramennis cannot fight Wanda's group with traditional tactics, and the sufficient ratio of attackers to defenders is significantly different as a result of Decryption.


Unrelated: In Panel 7, what the hell is that flying thing above Ossomer's head? It doesn't look like any of the other Archons flitting around. It's not a dwagon. The posture and coloration look like those of Archons, but laid end-to-end...maybe two of them got bored waiting around in the sky and decided to pass the time by - nope, that train of thought is over now.
GaryThunder
 
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:10 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby Calemyr » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:02 pm

I can't tell whether Slately is saying "If I'd used Tram back when I had a chance, I wouldn't be talking to a corpse" or whether he's saying "I send warriors when I should negotiate and diplomats when I should fight - I really am at fault, here." or "Yep. Trem's just as much of a disappointment as you were, boyo."

As for the what happens next, Tram is going to get away. He has to, he's too good an adversary to get rid of and he'd make a much more interesting ally later, of his own volition when the situation gets more dire. Ace... I'm not sure about Ace. The erf will weep tears of bitter blood if Parson gains Ace's loyalty. Less so if he gets decrypted, however. I could see how it'd happen, too: Ace disobeys orders to get the jetpack to Tram, but in doing so puts him and Tram into a position where only one can escape and Ace decides to buy time for the boss to escape. Wanda wants to kill him, but Parson is able to dissuade her and Ace gets chucked into dungeon. A while later, Parson shows up in the dungeon with an armful of Ace's hardware, asking if he really built them and gushing about how brilliant they were. Finally, someone gets it.
Calemyr
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:40 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby justamessenger » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:07 pm

GaryThunder wrote:
The general rule of thumb is a 3:1 ratio for attackers vs. defenders. I am not certain that GK has sufficient strength to meet that ratio, particularly if JS has the advantage of leadership bonuse; however, it is not Tramennis' intent to push that advantage if there is no certainty of success. Again, I believe his goal will be to preserve as many of his troops as possible, and it takes a far smaller force to engage inside the Tower and effectively slow down GK's advance.


Remember that the Arkenpliers change the entire equation. Tramennis cannot fight Wanda's group with traditional tactics, and the sufficient ratio of attackers to defenders is significantly different as a result of Decryption.


Unrelated: In Panel 7, what the hell is that flying thing above Ossomer's head? It doesn't look like any of the other Archons flitting around. It's not a dwagon. The posture and coloration look like those of Archons, but laid end-to-end...maybe two of them got bored waiting around in the sky and decided to pass the time by - nope, that train of thought is over now.


You are correct that conventional tactics are not likely to work, which is why Tramennis is far more likely to use asymmetric tactics, which is far more viable with GK 'storming the castle.' Small units CAN effectively engage larger units, with the dual outcomes of a) slowing down an advance, as additional measures must be taken to secure the column, and b) inflicting casualties.

Think of a team of soldiers clearing a building in an Iraqi/Afghani city: It takes a decent sized team to enter, clear and secure a building. Even one or two enemies can make that process considerably more difficult and time-consuming. The entry team cannot advance without ensuring that each room, each closet, each stairwell, each and every potential hiding spot is cleared. Tramennis can use this absolute necessity to his advantage.

Edit: The larger the building (in this case a huge tower), the more troops and more time are required to conduct the sweep. From what we have seen of the interior of the Tower, it will take GK forces a significant amount of time to clear each room and corridor on each floor.

As for the Archons, I believe what we are seeing in that panel is one of the pairs in 'orbit' in the airspace, perhaps something analogous to a CAP.
"Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten."
- G.K. Chesterton

Special thanks to BLANDCorporatio for the awesome avatar!!
User avatar
justamessenger
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:52 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby factotum » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:22 pm

boegiboe wrote:Another line of thought: The Money Problem.

Jetstone is in the position of having to maybe start disbanding forces to remain solvent. If they really ned to make their last stand in their old capital, they'll need some cash to beef up defenses.


Why is this necessarily a "last stand"? We don't know how many cities Jetstone has left to them--for all we know there could be dozens but the Gobwin Knob forces bypassed them to get at Spacerock. It would actually make sense to do that in a world where (a) the entire fighting force of a side disappears when their leadership falls and (b) the capital is actually a rather poorly defensible city compared to some of the others!
factotum
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 12:31 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 53

Postby atalex » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:46 pm

throwingrocks wrote:Slately's comments seem to be a bit out of place here; with all the background we've gotten for Slately, it really did seem like he didn't want Tramennis as CWL, and didn't agree with him, and would rather have someone else, etc. And then in just two updates, he goes from disagreeing with near everything to suddenly believing that Tramennis is the CWL who he should have appointed in the first place?

Ironically, this seems to be a rushed conversion. I'm tossing in another "Get on with it!" like zadcap.



He had an epiphany. Tramennis coldly and bluntly explaining the dire facts of their situation with more clarity than Ossomer (and, IMO, Ansom) could ever have managed finally broke through the haze of Slately's narrow-mindedness. Slately may not be able to think outside the box himself, but maybe he's finally realized that what he needed all along was someone else who could. It reminds me a little of Gandalf waking King Theoden from his slumber.
atalex
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:08 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests