Book 2 – Text Updates 041

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby joosy » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:47 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote: Wanda and her zombies getting a swipe at Slately is nowhere near as prominent a reason in the caster's discussion.


We DON'T use the Z word!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqNQbdD3kLw
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NotUsingTheZWord
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby Raza » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:47 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:PS: Tower and Courtyard are different zones, right?

And Wanda's in the Courtyard I think, while Slately's in the Tower. And Wanda's off-turn, and cannot move into the tower. Correct? Then Jetstone has all the time in the world.

Naw, they're only sub-zones of the garrison, defined by what they border on but not bordered from each other. GK can move freely between those now, but they cannot follow slately out into the city.
Last edited by Raza on Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby Sieggy » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:48 am

I still have to wonder who is this friend that Slately needs to talk to. My money's still on the Don. I think perhaps this gives a hint of why Slately detests Charlie - at some point in the past, JS must have battled Archons and found it an unpleasant experience. And this would be before the Battle of Expository Bridge, as Slately's prohibition preceded the battle. After all, in the Battle for Gobwin Knob, Ansom hired Charlie and promptly got croaked . . . perhaps Slately thought that Charlie either failed him or set him up for croaking / decrypting as part of an insidious Toolist plot.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:48 am

The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby joosy » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:55 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:PS: Tower and Courtyard are different zones, right?

And Wanda's in the Courtyard I think, while Slately's in the Tower. And Wanda's off-turn, and cannot move into the tower. Correct? Then Jetstone has all the time in the world.


Close. Tower and courtyard are different parts of the Garrison Zone. If you control one part of the garrison then you can attack any of the others.

to recap: City zones are: Airspace, Outer Walls, Garrison, and I believe Tunnels (if applicable) Garrison has three parts: Tower, Courtyard, Dungeon.

Once you have control of one part of the garrison you can then attack any of the other parts.
Last edited by joosy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:56 am

Aww, zones and sub-zones. Ok, that works. Carry on. Nothing to see here.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby HandofShadows » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:56 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:PS: Tower and Courtyard are different zones, right?

And Wanda's in the Courtyard I think, while Slately's in the Tower. And Wanda's off-turn, and cannot move into the tower. Correct? Then Jetstone has all the time in the world.


Wanda has orders to take the portal which is in the dungons (a different zone from the garrison) so it seems they can move between ground zones. Love the way that Peirce thinks. Very similar to the character he is based on. Doing that properly is a lot harder than you may think.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby MarbitChow » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:06 am

Imagine that Jetstone can only wipe out 5% of GK's forces each "combat round". (Note: Combat is simultaneous and real-time; I'm just using this for illustration.)
GK cannot return fire, so they drop out of the sky, one by one.
20 "combat rounds" later, GK is gone and Jetstone ends their turn.

I'm guessing that, when they have all the time in the world, they can continue to fabricate arrows to their heart's content.
This allows them to whittle away at GK's forces until there is nothing left, then end the turn.

Now assume that GK can fire back, and destroy 10% of Jetstone's forces each turn.
In 10 "combat rounds", GK has now won the city.

I don't think this update contradicts the previous condition of the battle.
The update makes it clear that they could wipe out everything in the sky, eventually.

But,

<jack bower>THEY'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME!</jack bower>
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby elecampane » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:16 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
joosy wrote:I think it had already been explained a few times that Jetstone, with the archers and the tower defenses, had enough firepower to take down all of the Gobwin Knob units in their airfield. It was also speculated that by using Jack and the Archon's Foolamancy Gobwin Knob (Wanda especially) may have survived the fight by outlasting their attack power and they could then flee at the start of their next turn.


Or, why not, fall down along with the survivors (off-turn) after the ranged Jetstonians were exhausted; or do anything else, it does not matter any more. Just what did the vaunted Jetstone AA defenses accomplish anyway? Downing a few yellows, maybe (without any attempt from GK of screening, Foolamancy or the like). Definitely not the surefire win we were told they were capable of. If this update were an honest and correct tactical assessment, then it just does not fit the previous setup of drama.


As I understand it, difficulty is not in killing a specific unit in the airspace (casters didn't say they can't take down Ossomer, they said it was not so easy), but in killing all of the enemy units in the airspace to evacuate one extremely valuable (and perhaps vulnerable, since Slately has seen only one battle) unit. How can they be sure, that there's no any veiled Archons left? Perhaps even one could kill Slately, much like Bogroll has killed Ansom.
If Wanda was still in the airspace, they could spend all of their resources to bring her down - that would mean winning the war. Now, when enemy forces are split, they just can't afford spending all all of their resources to take down Ossomer.
As to screening Wanda with units first to exaust enemy archers and casters, and harvesting the units later: don't forget, they had to break the glass roof, so that corpses would fall to the atrium.

PS: first post on the forum, hi all! =)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:22 am

MarbitChow wrote:Imagine that Jetstone can only wipe out 5% of GK's forces each "combat round". (Note: Combat is simultaneous and real-time; I'm just using this for illustration.)


And I imagine that arrows can run out (which we know happens), and that Wanda and a sizeable force would have survived the barrage. And the recent assessment of the Archons and Ossomer's leadership bonus tilts this assessment into "Wanda was in no danger" territory. If they'd waste significant arrows and juice trying to get the what, 22 units GK still has airborne, imagine what they'd need to do against those 22 units, plus Wanda's bonus to the decrypted Archons, plus everything else around.

elecampane wrote:As to screening Wanda with units first to exaust enemy archers and casters, and harvesting the units later: don't forget, they had to break the glass roof, so that corpses would fall to the atrium.


Hi!

My point is that GK could do anything it pleased. Wait the arrows and spells out, poop on the Atrium, fall down and harvest - or not. Whatever works. They were not pressed into a course of action by superior enemy firepower, because said enemy firepower would not have been effective.

Assuming what tactical assessments this update makes are to be taken at face value.

PS: this is going in circles. I've had enough. I'll just believe that this update was Jetstone hesitant to croak Ossomer, and leave it there.
Last edited by BLANDCorporatio on Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby Swodaems » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:23 am

What Ace should be saying:
"I admit that making an poorly organized attack on their airforce using the archers would be a bad move, but we should at least expend all the juice stored in the tower while it still has some potential use. Even if that use is nothing more than decreasing the amount of juice the archons have. There is a significant Faq airforce that is potentially within recall range that might be able to later use that to their advantage alongside with a force of our own flyers. Simply leaving it unused is a horrible idea as it can be used against us later. Ceding the city for the moment may be the best course of action, but it still our turn and we should be taking actions that would help our options should we decide that the best course of action would be to make an organized attempt to retake the city instead of making a retreat to old Jetstone. Their air force is probably weaker than their ground force ATM, due to the Croakamancer's position. If we can take it out, we open up the avenue for attacks of airborne opportunity such as the one that was used against Ansom. We can use my device as a means of adding another important flying command unit to the battle."
My prediction for what he is going to end up volunteering to do:
"As any units remaining in the city will be captured if all units in the Garrison fall or are captured, the situation demands that at least some units make the sacrifice of staying behind to hold it while the majority of our army leaves the city. Me and the cloth golems are the best choice for this. The cloth golem heavies may become a major liability during a retreat (due to move penelty or their current wounded against ansom's ground force status). Their and my best use is to make a stand here, based at the portal room. My bonus to them allows me to use them to good effect against the units I'll be fighting and I can simply flee thru the portal to the 'neutral' MK when I feel sufficiently threatened. I can be in our old capital be turn's end implementing some designs I've got for items that will increase our combat capabilities. It is a solid plan that would llow us to retain as much of the useful army units as possible under what I believe the circumstances to be and allows for the useful sacarifice of some units that might prove liabilities." That he personally hates those units is a nice bonus.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:28 am

Swodaems wrote:What Ace should be saying:{snip}


What Ace should realize is that empty lines between paragraphs are his friends. I'm so sorry. Interesting ideas though, and certainly good thinking for a move ahead, when Spacerock would need to be retaken.

Less impressive on the Cloth Golem point. They are liable to be decrypted anyway ... unless Ace can somehow dispel them fast enough or something.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby joosy » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:32 am

and on a completely unrelated note.. now that Wanda has control of what I am assuming is the bulk of Gk's dwagons I am not sure she will be keen on retaking FAQ. At least not the way that Stanley has in mind.

Eager to know how this turn of events is playing out in the halls of the Transylvito king.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:35 am

joosy wrote:Eager to know how this turn of events is playing out in the halls of the Transylvito king.


I'm with those who say Don is the friend Slately wants to talk to. It makes sense. And it will be nice to see the change, as I'm sure Don is celebrating the downing of GK's Dwagons ... only to get a call from Slately telling him that he's leaving the city as fast as he can manage!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby Angband » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:38 am

hajo wrote:twin-tubed rear armor plate


It's a TTRAP!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby elecampane » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:41 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
elecampane wrote:As to screening Wanda with units first to exaust enemy archers and casters, and harvesting the units later: don't forget, they had to break the glass roof, so that corpses would fall to the atrium.


Hi!

My point is that GK could do anything it pleased. Wait the arrows and spells out, poop on the Atrium, fall down and harvest - or not. Whatever works. They were not pressed into a course of action by superior enemy firepower, because said enemy firepower would not have been effective.

Assuming what tactical assessments this update makes are to be taken at face value.

PS: this is going in circles. I've had enough. I'll just believe that this update was Jetstone hesitant to croak Ossomer, and leave it there.

I also think that Ossomer is much tougher, than Wanda. So if screening-with-archons blocks, say, 95% of the enemy arrows, the difference in damage needed becomes 20 times greater. That can be very significant.
Strictly speaking, they couldn't break the roof after loosing some units - it was said that units roll off the roof and fall elsewhere, so that units would be lost. But even if they could, drama was in Wanda taking a dive to the atrium at her own will, decision which Jetstone hasn't foreseen. And without that decision Jetstone would be in no danger.

Upd: sorry, didn't notice your PS. Pretty reasonable resolution
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby Raza » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:10 am

Angband wrote:
hajo wrote:twin-tubed rear armor plate


It's a TTRAP!

I should think a rear armor plate would provide some measure of protection against traps...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby teratorn » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:49 am

Before, they had a target rich environment with easy to get dwagons (they're huge) that weren't protected by foolamancy or the like. They'd fall fast. Archons are small, harder to get individually and probably easier to kill with arrows (a single shot is enough). If a couple of them manage to survive the airspace is unsafe, they have a lot of firepower. Also a single arrow incapacitated Jack and he looks tougher than Wanda.

No need to attack them for now, but Trammenis should keep at least one caster to shoot a few of them for the bounty when he decides to leave town.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby kagato23 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:01 pm

The biggest thing I take from this update is the new factoid that at least warlord bonuses also effect defense stats in addition to attack. Which is important to know.

Though there does seem to be some folks who think this update is lousy, but the logic here is sound even tactically, considering how archery warfare worked. The individual archer-individual target is the thing reserved for legend. The less people there are, the LESS effective archery generally is. Archery was all about the arrow spam. You dont' aim for a target, you aim for a range. and when you and a few hundred more people dot hat at once, you cover a pretty good area.

When the GK units were all packed in the airspace, it'd be hard for an archer firing NOT to hit something. When there are only a few targets, and they all are small, fast fliers... well dodging becomes a factor, because they have space to move around. Now, if everybody is shooting at once, yeah, you still hit. but it's far less efficient. And most importantly, THEY DON'T have the numbers anymore. Trem put the arrow spam down already into the courtyard, where it was far less effective for multiple reasons: partial cover, a far less ideal angle, the fact that the dead became shields. Even then, from what we saw there werent that many GK units left pre-wrequeim. With the archers and arrows they have left, they can't do a spam on the remaining archons. Not to the point that they could guarante every unit was dead, especially when those units had viel (as we saw at the bridge, with a full arrow spam, vieling doesn't matter.) With what they had left, they have to aim carefully. And that puts you into the individual archer-target mode which is far less effective. Could they do it? Probably, that's been said But not without draining a lot of reasources and, more importantly at the moment, not without taking quite a bit of time. And definitly not a good way to do things when they are on the clock.

So why wasn't this the case before? Multiple reasons. First, that full arrow spam talked about before. With a dittomancer there and a full compliment of tower spells, the plan would have been to overload the airspace. Use the towers to take down big and tough leadership targets, and arrow spam everything else. Vieling wouldnt' do a thing. And yes, the units would be tough, but al lot more of those arrows would have been hitting: less chance to dodge when you got people on all sides of you. What individual targets remained after this barrage could be picked of at leisure, which is a far different tactical standpoint then where they are now. They did have fliers there at the ready as well, no doubt to take out whaever might be left after this attack.

With GK not being able to really move or counterattack in anyway, that attack would have been a massacre. Now, as Jack speculates, his plan could have worked, sure. Could have being the operative word. Tough troops, deliberate vieling and screening: yes, the command might have survived, and even been in enough numbers to defend against the fliers. But they wouldn't have near enough to take the tower on their next move. They'd have to run to survive. Attack would be unthinkable: Once they did that, they are also dealing with a whole lot of completly competent infantry that can hit them. And I'm sure after the assult their siege dragons would be down to nothing, so just burning down the tower would not work so well. And that assumes that nobody gets lucky: there was always a chance that wanda or ossamer or whomever would still be hit and downed. Jack's plan was by his own admission a maybe. Dragons are big beefy targets, and an uncoordinated fall would have resulted in surviving troops alone, unled and ready for slaughter by the infantry forces. Even if wanda fell into the atrium, without Jack there Antium would have been stabbing her actual head, and that'd be that. But now? that great infantry has been partially turned into a new GK groundforce. Now it's a battle from two sides, and the reasources left are better serviced taking on the far more dangerous Garrison threat then wasting time and remaining arrows on the presently impotent air force.

Also, Pierce alone makes this update awesome. :P
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby GKBeetle » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:14 pm

@ kagato23
Best forum post ever in explaining away some misconceptions. Everything you said was well thought out and readable. Plus, I'm happy that you got to it before I could. I was just about to post something like what you said before I refreshed and your post was there. There's no way I would have explained it so well. Good job.
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