Book 2 – Text Updates 041

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby atalex » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:30 pm

fjolnir wrote:
atalex wrote:
You do realize, don't you, that you're basing your reaction entirely on the tactical assessment of a Healamancer who is expressly based on a combat-averse fictional character.

It's the tactical assessment of the person with the most combat experience in the group.


Yeah, but he's Pierce! He's more obviously based on a preexisting character than any other Erfworlder we've seen. Even the Dittomancer was an in-joke based on a character who appeared only once or twice on Harvey Birdman. Hawkeye Pierce, OTOH, is arguably one of the most overtly anti-war, combat-averse characters in modern fiction. He was the central viewpoint character from a show that ran for over a decade whose entire premise was about the maddening futility of war. And Chief Healomancer Pierce is so obviously based on Hawkeye that I think he's likely to die soon. Out of all the in-jokes Erfworld has shown us, he's the only one I can think of which might rise to the level of copyright violation. I would be very surprised to see Pierce offer a military assessment which encourages the listener into a bloody skirmish.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby Sixty » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:34 pm

Great update! Interesting to learn that "Chief Caster" is a real position usually based on level and experience. So Wanda being Chief Croakamancer wasn't just some flavor at the beginning of Book 1 when Rob was trying to decide what terms to use and probably still coming up with the rules that govern Erfworld.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby atalex » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:35 pm

Two other things I loved.

1. Pierce may be based on Hawkeye from MASH, but, like Klinger, he's bucking for an Eight.

2. After we've spent months speculating on Chekhov's jetpack, this update now raises the possibility that it won't be used at all! Slately, Trem and everyone else will just ignore its utility in the confusion, and it will just be another example of Fate kicking poor Ace once again.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby Angband » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:39 pm

Crivens wrote:Hey (first time posting here).


Welcome, and may I complement you on a fine choice of nom de forum.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby gameboy1234 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:40 pm

Raza wrote:
That's why I'm not appoint with this update. IF Archons are so tough and their Foolamancy so effective, IF Ossomer is so high leadership and so easily restackable ... what was the problem before again?


They've shot lot of arrows at the atrium since then, but I'll admit it doesn't feel like it entirely works out.


Don't forget it was close before. Close enough that Jack figured out how to survive. They could have just decrypted the dwagons in the air, which would have doubled their ability to take hits. That would have left at least Wanda and probably some high level units alive.

Now some dwagons have already absorbed hits from the Tower spells, and were then havested or they croaked. And arrows have been expended. So Jetstone is now down some strength, as well as GK air forces being reduced too. It still seems close though.

Sorry if all this was mentioned already.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby multilis » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:44 pm

"Just what did the vaunted Jetstone AA defenses accomplish anyway? Downing a few yellows, maybe (without any attempt from GK of screening, Foolamancy or the like). Definitely not the surefire win we were told they were capable of"

Vaunted AA defense when you have all the time in the world is to carefully stack up, and use dittomancer to full potential, targetting most important enemies first. Chief warlord stacks with one set of archers at a time and only that stack fires arrows, that way you get maximum bonus on each shot... and/or you time things to make best use of dittomancers doubling magic.

If you hit the croakomancer, then all the uncroaked archons lose big bonus.

Arrows seem partially like an area effect weapon, most effective if more enemy is in same area.

Jetstone rushed the attack, didn't focus on leadership, fired *lots* of arrows at few targets. It is all about force multipliers, and Jetstone screwed up badly there, firing lots of arrows with poorer leadership stacking, blindly into atrium *before* Wanda decroaked her army.
Last edited by multilis on Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby gameboy1234 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:45 pm

atalex wrote:2. After we've spent months speculating on Chekhov's jetpack, this update now raises the possibility that it won't be used at all! Slately, Trem and everyone else will just ignore its utility in the confusion, and it will just be another example of Fate kicking poor Ace once again.


Actually I think it raises the possibility that the Jet Pack will be important. Either it'll be captured and used by GK, or perhaps Tramennis's plan won't work out and Ace and his jet pack will save the day.

Or perhaps Tramennis's plan will work, but a drunken Ace will go completely off-reservation, and use the jet pack at an inappropriate time. Ace could ruin Tramennis's plan, perhaps handing victory to GK when they should have got a draw.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby badninja » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:54 pm

Why do I think that Ace is going to switch sides. That healomancer just cracks me up, he is my favorite person on M*A*S*H and also actor. I keep feeling that this group of castes in some way the opposites of GK's. The leaders a polar opposites obviously but Cubbins and Sizemore are the most similar both care for something. Nice update and it will play major part in how the battle will conclude with as I stated earlier with Ace defecting to someone who will listen to him.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby multilis » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:57 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:Actually I think it raises the possibility that the Jet Pack will be important.


Jetpack also makes it easier to have chief warlord or king stack with flying units to hunt remaining archons so he pay for becoming heir.

Jetpack also makes it easier to play sniper... if you can clear out airspace of enemies, you can put pack on whatever is your best ranged attack/sniper unit, or whatever can drop something dangerous on enemies and attempt surgicals strike to eliminate enemy leadership... since enemy can't cross zone on your turn your sniper can hit them without them being able to shoot back at all.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby Ditto » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:36 pm

I just need to thank kagato again for spelling out the difference between killing most of the GK airforce (before) and definitely killing every single unit (now), and to Angband for pointing out that the Twin-tubed Rear Armor Plate is a TRAP.
SteveMB wrote:The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
Sorry*.
*no I'm not
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby museunchained » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:48 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
elecampane wrote:Totally agree, but discussion was about whether the situation before the falling trick was as bad for Wanda, as everyone talked about it, considering how difficult taking Ossomer alone would be, according to casters.


:lol: And I don't need to fuel it, it goes on under its own inertia. And probably will, for a while. Shoite. What have I wrought?




Heh, poor guy. I read the forums more frequently than I log in to post and you seem to have a knack for exactly the kind of once it's in motion it stays in motion debate :p


EDIT because of course I would hit quote on the wrong post.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby DoctorJest » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:06 pm

atalex wrote:Two other things I loved.

1. Pierce may be based on Hawkeye from MASH, but, like Klinger, he's bucking for an Eight.


ah yeah, I missed that on the first read through. :lol:
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby BakaGrappler » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:01 pm

Just because his sum-up is so damn good, here is kagato again.


kagato23 wrote:The biggest thing I take from this update is the new factoid that at least warlord bonuses also effect defense stats in addition to attack. Which is important to know.

Though there does seem to be some folks who think this update is lousy, but the logic here is sound even tactically, considering how archery warfare worked. The individual archer-individual target is the thing reserved for legend. The less people there are, the LESS effective archery generally is. Archery was all about the arrow spam. You dont' aim for a target, you aim for a range. and when you and a few hundred more people dot hat at once, you cover a pretty good area.

When the GK units were all packed in the airspace, it'd be hard for an archer firing NOT to hit something. When there are only a few targets, and they all are small, fast fliers... well dodging becomes a factor, because they have space to move around. Now, if everybody is shooting at once, yeah, you still hit. but it's far less efficient. And most importantly, THEY DON'T have the numbers anymore. Trem put the arrow spam down already into the courtyard, where it was far less effective for multiple reasons: partial cover, a far less ideal angle, the fact that the dead became shields. Even then, from what we saw there werent that many GK units left pre-wrequeim. With the archers and arrows they have left, they can't do a spam on the remaining archons. Not to the point that they could guarante every unit was dead, especially when those units had viel (as we saw at the bridge, with a full arrow spam, vieling doesn't matter.) With what they had left, they have to aim carefully. And that puts you into the individual archer-target mode which is far less effective. Could they do it? Probably, that's been said But not without draining a lot of reasources and, more importantly at the moment, not without taking quite a bit of time. And definitly not a good way to do things when they are on the clock.

So why wasn't this the case before? Multiple reasons. First, that full arrow spam talked about before. With a dittomancer there and a full compliment of tower spells, the plan would have been to overload the airspace. Use the towers to take down big and tough leadership targets, and arrow spam everything else. Vieling wouldnt' do a thing. And yes, the units would be tough, but al lot more of those arrows would have been hitting: less chance to dodge when you got people on all sides of you. What individual targets remained after this barrage could be picked of at leisure, which is a far different tactical standpoint then where they are now. They did have fliers there at the ready as well, no doubt to take out whaever might be left after this attack.

With GK not being able to really move or counterattack in anyway, that attack would have been a massacre. Now, as Jack speculates, his plan could have worked, sure. Could have being the operative word. Tough troops, deliberate vieling and screening: yes, the command might have survived, and even been in enough numbers to defend against the fliers. But they wouldn't have near enough to take the tower on their next move. They'd have to run to survive. Attack would be unthinkable: Once they did that, they are also dealing with a whole lot of completly competent infantry that can hit them. And I'm sure after the assult their siege dragons would be down to nothing, so just burning down the tower would not work so well. And that assumes that nobody gets lucky: there was always a chance that wanda or ossamer or whomever would still be hit and downed. Jack's plan was by his own admission a maybe. Dragons are big beefy targets, and an uncoordinated fall would have resulted in surviving troops alone, unled and ready for slaughter by the infantry forces. Even if wanda fell into the atrium, without Jack there Antium would have been stabbing her actual head, and that'd be that. But now? that great infantry has been partially turned into a new GK groundforce. Now it's a battle from two sides, and the reasources left are better serviced taking on the far more dangerous Garrison threat then wasting time and remaining arrows on the presently impotent air force.

Also, Pierce alone makes this update awesome. :P



And now I add to it.

We have a precedence to a "single veiled person" with Stanly and Jack being hunted by the Transilvito forces.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F115.jpg

A couple humans that can hide anywhere in the sky with foolomancy? Nah, they're gone. That is the situation now with the Archons.

At this point in time, there is no way for the tower defenses and the remaining Outter Wall archers to out maneuver, locate, and pin down the Foolomancy capable Archons that can just fly back and forth over the grounds while veiled to the locations that are light on archery units and just avoid all the booping arrows. Wasted resources on Jetstone's part, especially when those arrows can be conserved for hitting the ground troops when they bust out of the walled in building they are currently in, hopefully getting a lucky shot like with Warlord Manpower.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F002.jpg


And since the air units can not directly attack in their current situation, they can be left for later. This doesn't change the fact that the Airspace is completely under GK control, and that it would take significant resources to completely exterminate the archons and take it back, just for the sole purpose of flying a single unit out of the battle. Taking control of the airspace will do nothing to win the battle. And it would be splitting JS's resources.

Tactically, Tram was dead on saying that they are in trouble. GK now has possession of the Airspace and are now invading the garrison. The original plan called for taking the air space and then doing a garrison drop, which is what the situation has become under quite bizarre circumstances. I think everyone remembers the situation Parson faced when his airspace was occupied and the garrison was being invaded.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F119.jpg

The Unipegtaurs are now useless, and the airspace is lost. All of Tram's forces HAVE to go against the ground incursion in order to survive, and potentially win. It's all about objectives, remember?
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F124.jpg

Tram's primary objective is to continue the ability of his side to fight and their overall survival.
That has been solved by evacuating his side's king and the irreplaceable casters.

His secondary objective is to render the enemy incapable or unwilling to take the city of Spacerock.
The best way to do that is to kill Wanda.
The second best way is to kill enough military under Wanda's command that act as her shield to force the Croakamancer to surrender.
The third best way is to kill all of the army Wanda has raised (no pun intended) within Jetstone's own walls, and Wanda with them.

Barring accomplishing those objective, Tram must pull a full retreat to help secure objective 1, having more military remaining to supply Jetstone the ability to continue fighting.

Oh, and I think Tram would consider attacking the Archons at this point as a show of contempt by doing the only thing he can do, while he can. And I think we all know Tram's views on that.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby DunkelMentat » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:46 pm

Alcohol with a curative for incapacitation? He ought to give FOUR Loko a try.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby kreszantas » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:40 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
auraseer wrote:They didn't say they are unable to shoot down the warlord. They seem sure they'd get Ossomer eventually. The problem they're talking about is that, after using tower juice and arrows to get him (and having used up a lot on the atrium troops already) they could not be sure of mopping up every last Archon. That would leave it unsafe for Slately to escape by air.

If Wanda were still in the air, they would not have to worry about mopping up stragglers. As soon as their still-fully-powered defenses overwhelmed part of the screen or got in a lucky shot, GK would lose the whole war.


Why not croak every Archon, anyway? There's a bounty on their head.

And no, just no. A minute ago there was "Full GK expedition group above Spacerock = Jetstone is biding time, in a position to mock parley because they've surely won". Now it's "most of GK's airforce is down on the ground = Jetstone's not sure of nuking what's left out of the skies". It doesn't add up nicely.

As for a lucky shot, Wanda was almost hit by the Atrium's inclement weather, there was the fall to contend with as well ... this update makes it seem that veiling Archons, shielding Dwagons etc would have made her chances in the air seem good by comparison.


Also one other thing we know that WREQUIEM happened around the same time as this conversation takes place. Note the timing and sequence of the kings' passing through the column. The conditions on which the four were speaking shifted from one of advantage to one of speculation which was exactly the point Hawkeye was trying get Ace to understand.

But the ultimate laugher would be if the twin-tubed full plate armor was too big for the diminuative king... doh! doh!
Huh? What was that sound, oh nevermind it was nothing.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby shalist » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:06 pm

As has been noted, it's probably a tad easier to dominate GK's forces, when

a) You have archers. With arrows.
b) You have a fully juiced up tower.
c) You have all the time in the world.
d) Everything you need to shoot was sitting right there, unveiled and well within range:

update wrote:As condition to formal parley, all Foolamancy must be dispelled, and our forces must be assembled over the garrison, within range of their archers and casters.


Edit: Its worth noting that Wanda had little difficulty nuking all sortsa archons and fliers with GK's tower defense, so the shell-shocked healomancer might be overstating their combat ability a bit, especially since the encounter on the bridge was probably the only time he'd ever 'fought' them. (per the update, he'd only been on the front lines since JS sent the elves away, which would have to have been relatively recent...perhaps his 6-7 levels were from protecting a weakened JS from opportunistic neighbors?)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby cmattg » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:43 pm

Hi!

Is this the first time the Dittomancer's name has been mentioned?

If it is, am I the first to realize he is Lloyd, the Doubler?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby random_guy » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:20 am

I think there's one other important difference for Wanda's tactical situation. Earlier, when she was in the air, she had to decrypt the dragons quickly enough in order to be able to keep them. In the current situation, she can decrypt them at her leisure, so she will have fresh units once Jetstone runs low on arrows. Decrypting in mid-air means gaining new units while Jetstone is still firing arrows, so the new units won't last as long. Also, there are only a few holes in the roof of the atrium, so units will have a small amount of cover from arrows. Also, Jack could have used foolamancy while they were in the air, but Wanda refused because she thought Fate wanted her to live.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby danhaas » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:25 am

We don't have the rulebook of Erfworld. We don't have an exact description of every item, artifact, unit, not even for every school of magic.

I know strategy and tactics are super fun, but we simply don't have enough material to do any logical prediction of any battle. After Kingworld and a lot of other unexpected events coming up, why bother?

All we can do is wild speculation and ex post facto explanations, which may require quite a stretch sometimes.

We are, though, capable of doing psychological predictions, based on signamancy and character personality.

Lol, tvtropes is more reliable than erfwiki, imo.

And if any of you are concerned that any character you cherish is gonna die, remember this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0472.html
With decryption, that is so true.
Last edited by danhaas on Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 041

Postby GaryThunder » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:25 am

I can't believe I didn't see this before. Lloyd's staff isn't a lollipop, it's a copyright symbol.

He's a copywright.
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