Book 2 – Page 54

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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Lamech » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:11 am

Atomic wrote:1.) The military reason: Splitting your forces over any distance is rarely a good idea from a strategic standpoint, especially considering the long distance they'll be separated by...and the fact that the two forces would now be divided by a building/wall they can't penetrate and a massive amount of enemy units. That's without even touching on how close the odds were before the detaching Wanda's group.

Not only does it halve the offensive and defensive capabilities of each group (or stack, depending on how the Dwagons would benefit from leadership verses stacking bonuses), it puts both groups at a much larger risk of being destroyed by a massed attack from the Jetstone-ian forces. Caesar actually points that out in this very update (see below), even though he's likely under the assumption that Gobwin Knob's forces are still together... And if he recognizes that the Gobwin Knob forces are halved, well, then Parson wouldn't have needed to come over, 'cause the full might of the Gobwin Knob army would've been enough to win the battle...
But she has to split up the forces to take the dungeon. The dwagons can't go. If she wants the portal she MUST split the party. So the question is now what should be done with the dwagons? I think attacking the tower is the right call. If it works the tower falls. It forces Tram's forces to come out the door, perfect for those breaths. If he doesn't tower falls. It forces them to deal with the dwagons before going after Wanda, otherwise the tower is in more danger of falling. They're pinning the forces down.

What do you think should be done with the dwagons? Do you think leaving a bit of leadership behind was a poor call?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Dr Pepper » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:18 am

Two immediate observations.

1) It appears that Don is in fact the "friend" that Slately said he would have to call. I guess he's reached the point of swallowing his attitude toward "lesser" royalty.

2) The Jetstone home guard seems to have turned with gusto. They're positively eager to start slaughtering their former friends. BTW: is Sylvia Scarlet unique-- or does she come in six-packs?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby the_tick_rules » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:22 am

Actually her name is Sylvia Lazarus, scarlet was one of her fan name given to her during her long no-name status. I don't understand the six-pack question. She's herself, maybe some random people bear a resemblence but that's most liekly due to just going generic for the random schmucks.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Wyvern » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:01 am

atalex wrote:I'm a little unclear on the layout now. My understanding is this: The Atrium is a large open area roughly the size of a football field and enclosed on all sides by a large building. There is a front door and a back door within the Atrium, but of which lead into the building. The front door leads to stairs which connect to the Atrium. The back door leads to stairs which connect to the dungeon. (This does not preclude the possibility that there are other ways to the tower and or dungeon, I suppose; these are just the only ones mentioned.) Slately will not need to cross through the Atrium. He will descend the tower stairs and exit through the front of the garrison into the city.The dwagons and other siege will stay in the Atrium to try and break through the front door to target the tower. The rest will leave through the back door to the dungeon.

HAve I got all that right?

I'm late on this now, but I was also kind of confused about this. I tried to make a little diagram to see if I could sort it out. (Spoilered for size.)

Spoiler: show
Image


The tower is built into the side of the atrium. The king is coming downstairs and leaving, passing by the door to the atrium but not entering it. The dwagons are going to try to tear down the tower from the other side of that door, led by Sylvia. Wanda, Jack, and all the infantry are going down to the dungeon via some as yet unknown route (since they can't reach the displayed one).

The question here is...what's the point of the atrium, if an invading force can just run around the back and go up the tower without fighting through it? It's possible that I have the whole thing flipped backwards, such that the atrium gate doesn't exist and the tower gate is the only entrance to the garrison, but then the atrium is still not well-positioned to serve as the first line of defense for the garrison...you'd have to move all the troops out into the cramped entry room at the base of the tower.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby the_tick_rules » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:12 am

The tower is a part the garrison zone of a city, as is the courtyard and tunnels (though spacrrock is apparently an excption that it has no tunnels). So the tower is going to be there no matter what. Jetstone amped it's garrison zone up beyond inner walls that GK had breached by weiner rammers or whatever else other cities have on average to the massive walled complex we see. The atrium is the specific part of this building where the courtyard used to be. They just built a building around it with a glass roof, thus the atrium was born.
Last edited by the_tick_rules on Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby name lips » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:22 am

Wyvern wrote:
Spoiler: show
Image


Only thing I think you're missing is the "back way" into the dungeons from the Atrium. Otherwise it's exactly how I envision it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby GaryThunder » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:26 am

The back entrance to the tower is likely a small and perhaps hidden door as opposed to a grand gate such as is in the Atrium's front. It's not an assailable point of entry like the gates are, it's too small and you can't fit that many people through it. It's being used now for its primary purpose: so the people in the tower have an escape hatch after the enemy comes crashing through the front door. Or the roof, in this situation.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby the_tick_rules » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:37 am

The tower stairs from the dungeon are probably the back way, probably.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Sylvan » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:39 am

I'm pretty sure the back door to the Tower still leads straight into the Garrison, not out into the city. Consider (Emphasis mine).

SummerUpdates wrote:Spacerock had dungeons, but no tunnel zone at all. Instead, it had an unusually ornate and well-defended Garrison. Its outer structure was not merely a wall, but a full twelve-story palace complex of rooms and chambers.

At its center, a vaulted roof of smoked glass panels covered what would be the open courtyard in a more typical Level 5 design. This formed a cavernous area they called the atrium.


So, I think you can see the front entrance to the tower from the Atrium in the same text update quoted there. Its just that in the very back of the tower there is an exit to that twelve-story palace complex, and from there you can find an exit to the outside.

I was also under the impression that the theme continued in the dungeon zone, so Wanda might find herself fighting in close quarters.

I'm kind of in the camp that thinks this battle might be heading in a bad way for Gobwin Knob. Yeah, croaking Slately is checkmate, but remember Ossomer's discussion of how it was also less than optimal? I was thinking GK might be able to use their siege to just bust a path to the portal room that the dwagons could travel (we're so porous that anyone can walk in!), so now this glee to go for the less optimal approach, which Parson only suggested if they had to fight against bad odds, just strikes me as a terrible idea.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Wyvern » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:40 am

the_tick_rules wrote:The tower is a part the garrison zone of a city, as is the courtyard and tunnels (though jetstone is apparently an excption that it has no tunnels). So the tower is going to be there no matter what. Jetstone amped it's garrison zone up beyond inner walls that GK had breached by weiner rammers or whatever else other cities have on average to the massive walled complex we see. The atrium is the specific part of this building where the courtyard used to be. They just built a building around it with a glass roof, thus the atrium was born.

Well, according to the original garrison rules we learned, the airspace borders the tower and the courtyard borders the outer walls. This implies that typically the tower does NOT border the outer walls, and that you need to clear out the courtyard first to reach the tower zone on foot. Which would be a desirable thing, since the throne room is apparently in the tower. But in Jetstone, it seems that the courtyard subzone (i.e. the atrium) can be bypassed entirely if you want, which strikes me as odd, especially since a big show was made of the atrium being extra-defensible.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby the_tick_rules » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:48 am

I guess it depends on what and where the backdoor is exactly. If the backdoor is within the same zone then it'd still be proper under erf rules, if the backdoor is still within the atrium but another part of it that would not be a bypass route as you'd have to be already in the place to use it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Atomic » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:01 am

Lamech wrote:What do you think should be done with the dwagons? Do you think leaving a bit of leadership behind was a poor call?
The thing is, did Wanda *really* have to split the force up like she just did? Even if the dwagons can't waltz into the Portal Room/dungeon, who's to say they can't be just as effective on the other side of the tower? If Wyvern's diagram is correct (and it looks as close to being accurate as anything we've seen so far), why not take the dwagons to the other side of tower and have 'em yell at the walls over there? All of this could've been done while remaining close(r) to Wanda and the tunnel-capable units, too. That's another reason why splitting up the forces (over such a large distance) was troublesome; it removes the possibility of reinforcements if things get hairy. Imagine Parson's surprise when he's escorted into the Atrium by Wanda and they see Tramennis waiting for them, looking all dandyish and covered in the dust of their fallen Dwagons...Surprise!

Additionally, if they *had* to split the forces up, wouldn't it be a better idea to leave behind the unit with the highest bonus? I mean, as far as we can tell, Sylvia has the highest leadership of any Warlord...But wouldn't Wanda's Arkentool-bonus be the greater than that, as far as benefiting the newly decrypted Dwagons? If her bonus is the greatest and she's going with the tunnel-capable units, wouldn't that make the Portal-Room-party the most important group? But if getting to the Portal Room is more important than destroying the tower, why even focus on destroying the tower? But if burning the tower is so important, why are they--- Ugh.

ALSO -- Where are all of Jetstone's heavies? I remember it being a big theory (about a year ago...lol.) that all the wounded heavy-units would be something that could help turn the tide in Gobwin Knob's favor, yet we haven't seen heads or tails of 'em since Tramennis entered the city.

Someone (who deserves credit for their theory) postulated in another thread that Jetstone would cede control of the city right as Sizemore (or was it just Parson?) walked into the portal, landing him (them) in Jetstone's original capitol site, instead of in Spacerock the City... Maybe when the dwagons destroy the tower Tramennis/Slately will realize that all hope is lost and designate their former capitol before Parson makes it through? Imagine the 'lulz'...

Wanda: Lord Parson, where are you?
Parson: What do you mean 'where am I'? I'm waiting right here in the portal room.
Wanda: ...
Parson: Wait. Where are YOU?
ORLY: O SNAP
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby fjolnir » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:07 am

This atrium is the courtyard, there are gates from the tower to the outer wall that bypass the courtyard, from there they are just going to walk out the front door unmolested because all gk units in the area are either trapped in the city hex or many hexes away in gk territory...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Ansan Gotti » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:29 am

atalex wrote:Not surprising, really. Caesar is an anti-hero plotting against a character most of us like, and arguably with good reason given how Jillian has let down her backers. Vinny hasn't even been seen since the last summer update and has fallen from "Ansom's right hand and conscience" to "Jillian's latest besotted love toy."


Sorry, are you referring to Jillian as a character that most of us like?

I am not so sure about that, at all. Jillian is disliked by quite a few people, and I would almost bet it's an equal number to the ones who like her. Maybe even more.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby GaryThunder » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:36 am

Additionally, if they *had* to split the forces up, wouldn't it be a better idea to leave behind the unit with the highest bonus? I mean, as far as we can tell, Sylvia has the highest leadership of any Warlord...But wouldn't Wanda's Arkentool-bonus be the greater than that, as far as benefiting the newly decrypted Dwagons? If her bonus is the greatest and she's going with the tunnel-capable units, wouldn't that make the Portal-Room-party the most important group? But if getting to the Portal Room is more important than destroying the tower, why even focus on destroying the tower? But if burning the tower is so important, why are they--- Ugh.


Wanda's decision was fine and in keeping with her orders. Filter her decision through Parson's strategy rant. Her primary objective at the moment, which is also a direct order, is to secure the portal room for Parson's arrival. So she is personally leading the group that will accomplish that task, because if you want to get something done right, etc, etc. But as her goal is to topple or capture the garrison, an important secondary objective presents itself in keeping as much pressure on the King as possible, and hopefully being able to score a win outright by checkmate. Since Wanda can't oversee it herself, she delegates it to her second-in-command Sylvia, the one warlord among her Decrypted who she actually seems to respect.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Sokrotes » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:45 am

Not anything very deep to say this time. I just want to tell Xin that i think this is the most well draw, visually stunning strip thats been drawn. It may not be anything extravagant like a huge battle scene but i think it looks amazing. Especially the bottom in the Translvito War Room.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:19 am

Sylvan wrote:So, my question to you is, where did the other two archons come from? Yeah, yeah, all speculations aside, it doesn't say either way. Which is why I said it was implied that they all surrendered. Don't accuse me of giving people the wrong facts and trolling if you're just going to snip the important bit and do the same to me.


"Heavily implied", you said. Which was not the case. All we had to go on was- one Archon shot down, one Archon surrendered, three Archons croaked, and that a battle happened in which the surrendered Archon did not sustain injury. If anything is heavily implied, it's that three Archons were croaked in battle. As in shot down. In fact, I see no implication at all that three Archons surrendered, but that's just me.

As for the "trolling", it's because you tempt me to return to the topic of Archons and shooting them down, at Spacerock. A discussion (started by me, I admit, therefore making me the original troll) which took in one form or another half the reaction thread of the previous update, and one I hoped to avoid. Not asking you to know what everyone's been saying so as to be able to understand lame forum in-jokes, but please do lighten up.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby splintermute » Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:33 am

Wyvern wrote:
Spoiler: show
Image

That looks right. We already have a map of the general layout - the Transylvito model in panel 9. The tower appears to be on one side of the atrium, adjacent to the outer walls. The fact that Caesar is suggesting a triple-scale display, and has to specify where the dungeon goes relative to the tower and atrium, suggests that the dungeon isn't necessarily immediately beneath the tower - it's a separate garrison zone, and may be directly accessible from the atrium
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:01 am

Sylvan wrote:I'm kind of in the camp that thinks this battle might be heading in a bad way for Gobwin Knob.


Atomic wrote:I disagree with Wanda's decision. It's almost certainly going to go wrong from a military-view, a literary-view and a plot-view... She's gonna mess stuff up. I can just feel it.


You two are right. For the wrong reasons :P I'm thinking that this battle will go not-as-good-as-expected for GK, but less because Wanda made a bad decision. Her plan is sound. However she, and Parson, and their allies, are not the only ones with two brain cells to rub together and a vested interest in the outcome. Something will happen ....

Atomic wrote:Splitting your forces over any distance is rarely a good idea from a strategic standpoint, especially considering the long distance they'll be separated by


Eh, well, maneuvering your forces generally means separating them over distances comparable to what Wanda is doing. It's not like they are telling each other "yo, I'm gonna attack Washington, you go for Moscow. Ready? Roll dice." They are just allocating what they have to where it would be most useful. Standard tactics, really.


Atomic wrote:One of the first rules I learned about fictional/creative writing was that, when creating a story, everything needs to progress the plot/character development in some way or another. Rob is obviously a talented writer, so from a meta-perspective, I can't imagine him making an error in Parson's wording at the end of Page 52


Several things to say here. The fact that the plot needs to move is not an argument for Wanda making a mistake is the most relevant. Another is that rules are guidelines, not laws with sanctions attached. A great many good writers do in fact spend long passages NOT advancing the plot, nor developping character, not even laying story-background, but rather writing in loving detail about the history of the Jesus-owned-his-own-clothes debate. Finally, never, ever, assume someone is mistake proof.


Atomic wrote:simply wouldn't have had Jack speak those words if it wasn't going to have an impact on the story...to some degree or another, Jack's suggestion is gonna have an effect on the battle. I just get this really foreboding feeling; intensified by the fact things seem to be going well for Gobwin Knob the last few pages. Tie that into my first point about the military implications, and I'm betting we're gonna look at a major player in the battle dying. Soon.


This is a possibility, of course. It always is.

Atomic wrote:The thing is, did Wanda *really* have to split the force up like she just did? Even if the dwagons can't waltz into the Portal Room/dungeon, who's to say they can't be just as effective on the other side of the tower?


I'm not sure they can get there unless they punch through another set of walls anyway.

Atomic wrote:Additionally, if they *had* to split the forces up, wouldn't it be a better idea to leave behind the unit with the highest bonus? I mean, as far as we can tell, Sylvia has the highest leadership of any Warlord...But wouldn't Wanda's Arkentool-bonus be the greater than that, as far as benefiting the newly decrypted Dwagons? If her bonus is the greatest and she's going with the tunnel-capable units, wouldn't that make the Portal-Room-party the most important group? But if getting to the Portal Room is more important than destroying the tower, why even focus on destroying the tower? But if burning the tower is so important, why are they--- Ugh.


Prioritize, prioritize. You don't send everything you have to take just one objective, and not all objectives are equally important etc. Planning is not a trivial matter of "we'll hit here with all they've got!".

Atomic wrote:Someone (who deserves credit for their theory) postulated in another thread that Jetstone would cede control of the city right as Sizemore (or was it just Parson?) walked into the portal, landing him (them) in Jetstone's original capitol site, instead of in Spacerock the City... Maybe when the dwagons destroy the tower Tramennis/Slately will realize that all hope is lost and designate their former capitol before Parson makes it through? Imagine the 'lulz'...


Come on, that WOULD be funny.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby CaesarVH » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:17 am

She's not a robot, she's a doll. I think she's supposed to be a takeoff of the character of Sally from The Nightmare Before Christmas.[/quote]


To me it looks a lot like various dolls (robots) in anime, such as Battle Angel Alita or Ghost in the Shell. "Robot" works but I think it's literally a golem of some sort, maybe cloth, maybe something else.[/quote]
Yes, she is a cloth golem, she is called a Doll. This is a reference to the way mobsters often called their women "Dolls", just like Goyles, a knight class transylvito unit, are a play on how a mobster would say "Girls".[/quote]

also: Gargoyles! Indeed it sounds like the Italo-American (New York) Mobster accent for girls, but if I remember correctly they used goyles mostly as guard units sitting on top of the walls and towers etc. (Flight capable units). The knight-class units you refer to are the "better" guard goyles, the skanks (also word for females but a bit less nice)

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