Book 2 – Text Updates 042

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:52 pm

Atomic wrote: Bunny is [...] Should I continue?




Yes, please, it was Hillarious.
3 Naughtymancers of different disciplines walk into a bar... wait, forget what I just said. A shockmancer and a croakamancer walk into a bar.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby ryanroyce » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:43 pm

Great update, though I am somewhat confused by the use of "Pinochet" as the magic word. What does this reference mean in this context? If it was just about making money disappear, I'd have totally used "Madoff" instead. ;-)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby Jamus » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:10 pm

Atomic wrote:As far as leveling...
Word of Titans wrote:You have to understand that the denizens of Erfworld don't see a lot of what a player would see in a game. Including XP. Leveling is a surprise to them, and XP (or the equivalent) is a theory (albeit a pretty solid one). The people are in the dark and guessing, and it's kind of hard to build an XP table by actually finding 10 new level 1 Marbits to croak, discovering that you level, then discovering through experimentation that you need to croak 50 to level again.

From a narrative perspective, the fudge factor is high. But that does not mean there is not one consistent mathematical system governing leveling. It's just opaque to the characters and readers at this time.

The general answer to your question is that power gains are linear and level requirements are exponential. It's not perfectly simple as all that, but to generalize, yes.
... So I'm pretty sure croaking a (likely) Level 1 King/Overlord wouldn't do much. I mean, story/"roleplaying" experience points aside, I'm just not seeing a reasonable excuse for Parson to gain anything from killing Slately besides a nominal amount of exp.


Unfortunately, word of titans ALSO said:

Book 2 Page 10 wrote:Ansom: What have you done!
Wanda: We haven't time. I would have given you the duty, but she was close to leveling.


I suspect Rob's changed his mind about certain aspects of this as the story has progressed. Leveling is clearly not a surprise- even if the precise numbers remain impenetrable, there's at least a strong sense to it.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby Mr. Goodwraith » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:11 pm

A couple of people have asked about "Pinochet." Augusto Pinochet isn't famous for making *money* disappear. He's famous for making *people* disappear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappeared#Chile
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby GaryThunder » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:50 pm

I suspect Rob's changed his mind about certain aspects of this as the story has progressed. Leveling is clearly not a surprise- even if the precise numbers remain impenetrable, there's at least a strong sense to it.


I'll spare you the whole onerous debate, but I considered this to be the focal point of my issue this thread. I think that Wanda's ability to tell that Sylvia was close to leveling is not a narrative inconsistency but an unprecedented and noteworthy function of the Arkenpliers and of Decryption.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby multilis » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:12 pm

GaryThunder wrote:
I suspect Rob's changed his mind about certain aspects of this as the story has progressed. Leveling is clearly not a surprise- even if the precise numbers remain impenetrable, there's at least a strong sense to it.


I'll spare you the whole onerous debate, but I considered this to be the focal point of my issue this thread. I think that Wanda's ability to tell that Sylvia was close to leveling is not a narrative inconsistency but an unprecedented and noteworthy function of the Arkenpliers and of Decryption.

Given some careful watching... it is possible for someone to predict when they will level next.

Eg I levelled a while back and since then I have killed X units, so based on the known pattern, I am pretty close. This chief warlord is worth boatloads of XP. Therefore it is pretty well sure that will push me over the top to level.

One thing that factors into this... is decrypting more croakomancy or healomancy? (Croakomancy is more about having puppets)

It is possible that the pliers are really healomancy and for gift of such a return you get a *one time* loyalty shift to 100% towards person, and big shift towards side but that can erode like any normal player, and Jetstone may survive only because the decrypted brother in the sky turns, which allows archon killing, charlie bonus, and jetpack escape.

As well, if they are close to healomancy, we have another possible caster for attunement soon. Would be huge twist if wanda dies in this battle, at hands of a dive bomb from her own former decrypted toy. (Lots of foreshadowing including Wanda leaving Ansom behind at bridge because of concern for loyalty dropping if they kill his father/brother)

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-31.jpg

Even if wanda dies, Parson may be able to take garison, which imprisons all remaining jetstone units including casters before they can escape... only one jetpack, so if air is only way out then only the heir...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby BCCroaker » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:00 pm

[quote="Atomic]Already called that first one...but was promptly shot down by people who think Wanda is/was capable of a solid strategic idea... I think otherwise, but we'll see. I'll be ready to say "I told you so!" when it happens...or to delete my previous posts when it doesn't happ...umm....[/quote]
It wasn't Wanda's idea, it was Jack's - that most able of Parson's students -then the fiery Sylvia adopted it. Wanda has always recognised military good sense and put her ass on the line to follow through with it, its when it gets personal she gets stupid. But then a lot of the Erfworlders seem to be that way - part of the reason for the Hamsters success in book 1.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby ZaHgO » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:46 pm

I have followed this comic since issue 15, also I'm chilean, that's why I feel dissapointed in the use of Pinochet in such an insulting way.
I'm not a follower of him but neither against him. But it's clearly a mistake to take it so lightly without knowing the full context in wich the things happened.
What's worse, I was planning on ordering the books, but how could I now?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby gatherer818 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:55 pm

ParsonIsOP wrote:
WaterMonkey314 wrote:Er... are you asserting that casters in general pop randomly, without being ordered? As far as I can tell, we've always assumed that casters pop in lieu of warlords - what makes you think differently?


They had popped five Noble warlords, and no casters. Though there was no way to INTENTIONALLY pop a caster, usually a new side would receive one among their first few warlords. But it was said that the Titans read the Ruler's heart, and their Fate. Jillian's heart was armed for battle. Surely the Titans sent her what she needed.

Does anybody actually read anymore? Either way, we agree that the process is random. I also say that it may not appear in the queue. I am advancing another possibility that is ignored in favor of your chosen belief. It could very well be the case that the caster shows up in queue and people see it coming. Maybe it does replace a warlord in queue that an order was already placed for.

However, there is no evidence that it ever cost Slately money to pop Ace.

By the by, the burden of proof is on you. Not me. I haven't made a claim to knowledge. You have. Stop wasting my time covering basic etiquette for things you should already know.


Oh God, listening to you is driving me so crazy. I'll go find the update, but I have to reply now. Casters are Warlords, without Leadership, with Casting in one or more disciplines instead. The only way to get a caster is to pop a Warlord - the randomly generated Warlord has a chance to be a Caster. (The chance is currently entirely unknown and based on what the comic has said is likely highly affected by factors such as: number of Casters on a side, city the Warlord is being popped in, size of the side compared to number of Casters on the side, and Fate.) In Book One Parson mentions that Casters are technically Warlords but have no leadership score, making them ABLE to lead a stack but largely useless when doing so except when leading units that specifically get a bonus from that Caster (Uncroaked led by Croakamancer, Golems led by Dollamancer [excepting those certain Golems that Dirtamancers make and give bonuses to), etc.).

At this point it's generally accepted by the Erfworld community that you get Casters by popping Warlords. The burden of proof IS on you. If you want to contradict a well-known, uncontested position, you need to provide some evidence. What you are saying is akin to contesting gravity in real life and saying that I need to show you proof gravity exists. It's been proven and proven and proven and is STILL only a theory, yes, but a solid enough and proven enough theory it is now a law. It will remain so until and unless someone can provide adequate proof it is incorrect.


EDIT: Per the debate on whether or not homophobia exists in ErfWorld: One theory I was surprised not to see thrown around yet is that ROYALS tend to be prejudiced against homosexuals while common Erfworlders usually don't really care. Royals seem to be predisposed to be prejudiced against lots of things to begin with (I saw a lot of references to demoness, witch, beast for the GK units - all from Royals or Royal sides, at least). I find it entirely likely that conservative, traditionalist Royal Slately (stuck-up set-in-his-ways blowhard Slately, if you prefer) could be prejudiced against his "less-than-manly" son whilst the units under his command don't care if he wants to be half the Queen that Jillian is.

EDIT2: per ftl's remarks below, apparently the correct term is Commander. He saved me looking up the update I promised to look up. You decide to pop a Commander and most of the time get a Warlord - but can get a Caster. To the people of Erfworld, it's likely the same idea - they likely consider popping a Commander to BE popping a Warlord, with a chance of mystery-prize-Caster instead, but strategically, you can't say "I'm going to pop a few Commanders, hope for a Caster" unless your side is very, very rich and secure - you should be saying "We NEED Warlords so I will pop them." Casters from that pop are just a pleasant surprise.

Which leads to me a serious theory - how was it that King Banhammer had so many Casters in his tiny Kingdom? Did he know a trick to forcing Casters to pop? I'm picturing his name in action now... say (this is an ENTIRELY ARBITRARY NUMBER with NO IN-COMIC REFERENCE) you get back 85% of the Schumuckers you spent to pop a unit when you cancel production. *Declare the production of a Commander* Now, Predictamancer, what will it be? "A Warlord, Sire." *Cancel Commander* *Declare the production of a Commander* And now? "A Caster, Sire." Excellent.
Last edited by gatherer818 on Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby ftl » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:10 pm

gatherer818 wrote:Oh God, listening to you is driving me so crazy. I'll go find the update, but I have to reply now. Casters are Warlords, without Leadership, with Casting in one or more disciplines instead. The only way to get a caster is to pop a Warlord - the randomly generated Warlord has a chance to be a Caster. (The chance is currently entirely unknown and based on what the comic has said is likely highly affected by factors such as: number of Casters on a side, city the Warlord is being popped in, size of the side compared to number of Casters on the side, and Fate.) In Book One Parson mentions that Casters are technically Warlords but have no leadership score, making them ABLE to lead a stack but largely useless when doing so except when leading units that specifically get a bonus from that Caster (Uncroaked led by Croakamancer, Golems led by Dollamancer [excepting those certain Golems that Dirtamancers make and give bonuses to), etc.).


Are you sure you don't mean that casters are Commanders? Commanders aren't the same thing as Warlords. Commanders are anyone that can lead a stack.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F040a.jpg
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F084a.jpg

Doesn't change your point, just a terminology nitpick.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby DyolfKnip » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:20 pm

First time poster here!

I just noticed something. The room Slately's in in seems to be the same one that Ace Hardware was giving a speech to the archers in back in Text Update 30 (Slately even says, "Air defense was meant to muster here"). Gives a much better shot of some of the things on that table. Doesn't look like there's any dynamite, but it is definitely a light saber, as well as some kind of rocket. Which means some magical version of gunpowder, which means firearms are a real possibility. Parson would grasp that immediately.

Poor Ace. Someone needs to tell him that if he wants to be helpful, he's working for the wrong side.

--
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby gatherer818 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:31 pm

ZaHgO wrote:I have followed this comic since issue 15, also I'm chilean, that's why I feel dissapointed in the use of Pinochet in such an insulting way.
I'm not a follower of him but neither against him. But it's clearly a mistake to take it so lightly without knowing the full context in wich the things happened.
What's worse, I was planning on ordering the books, but how could I now?


What you're saying is, it's ok for Erfworld to make references to everything else and it's funny, but if it references YOUR country's history then it's wrong? Yeah, maybe I'm just really outspoken today, but that seems very hypocritical.

Maybe Americans everywhere should be upset that to take a city with FLYING AIR units, you have to KNOCK DOWN THE TOWER WITH THEM. Weird, I see Americans ordering the books...

Bleh, all my posts today have been destructive instead of constructive, and not just on this site. Maybe I'm just tired... maybe I'm tired of hypocrites and idiots. Time will tell.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby OneHugeTuck » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:20 pm

Yeah really. How could ERFworld's creators use 'pinochet' in such an insulting way. Clearly, while they know he was a mass murderer famous for making innocents disappear, they don't know the -whole- story.

Totally unfair. I'm going to start a boycott of this webcomic.



gatherer818 wrote:
ZaHgO wrote:I have followed this comic since issue 15, also I'm chilean, that's why I feel dissapointed in the use of Pinochet in such an insulting way.
I'm not a follower of him but neither against him. But it's clearly a mistake to take it so lightly without knowing the full context in wich the things happened.
What's worse, I was planning on ordering the books, but how could I now?


What you're saying is, it's ok for Erfworld to make references to everything else and it's funny, but if it references YOUR country's history then it's wrong? Yeah, maybe I'm just really outspoken today, but that seems very hypocritical.

Maybe Americans everywhere should be upset that to take a city with FLYING AIR units, you have to KNOCK DOWN THE TOWER WITH THEM. Weird, I see Americans ordering the books...

Bleh, all my posts today have been destructive instead of constructive, and not just on this site. Maybe I'm just tired... maybe I'm tired of hypocrites and idiots. Time will tell.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby Dr Pepper » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:46 pm

Jamus wrote:
Unfortunately, word of titans ALSO said:

Book 2 Page 10 wrote:Ansom: What have you done!
Wanda: We haven't time. I would have given you the duty, but she was close to leveling.




Yikes! It's been 15 months since Oss was decrypted. Where does the time go?
Read, like there won't be a movie
Game, like the die rolls don't matter
Filk, like everyone is tone deaf anyway

10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby Squishalot » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:54 pm

ftl wrote:
gatherer818 wrote:Oh God, listening to you is driving me so crazy. I'll go find the update, but I have to reply now. Casters are Warlords, without Leadership, with Casting in one or more disciplines instead. The only way to get a caster is to pop a Warlord - the randomly generated Warlord has a chance to be a Caster. (The chance is currently entirely unknown and based on what the comic has said is likely highly affected by factors such as: number of Casters on a side, city the Warlord is being popped in, size of the side compared to number of Casters on the side, and Fate.) In Book One Parson mentions that Casters are technically Warlords but have no leadership score, making them ABLE to lead a stack but largely useless when doing so except when leading units that specifically get a bonus from that Caster (Uncroaked led by Croakamancer, Golems led by Dollamancer [excepting those certain Golems that Dirtamancers make and give bonuses to), etc.).


Are you sure you don't mean that casters are Commanders? Commanders aren't the same thing as Warlords. Commanders are anyone that can lead a stack.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F040a.jpg
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F084a.jpg

Doesn't change your point, just a terminology nitpick.

It's hard to say. 'Commanders' would include units like Archons with leadership. I'm uncertain as to whether the Archons can engage or choose not to engage, but based on the ones hovering above Haggar's army, it would suggest that high level Archons (we don't know if at least one in each hex had the Leadership special) can act similarly to a warlord with regards to engagement.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby John Campbell » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:18 pm

So it occurs to me that homophobia on Erfworld may actually work the opposite way around that we Earthworlders would expect it to. Here on Earthworld, homosexuality is disapproved of, and is therefore associated with negative stereotypes (which may not have any basis in fact... most of the gay guys of my acquaintance resemble Ossomer more than Tramennis).

On Erfworld, however, the existence of Signamancy, not as a "quaint belief", but as an actual mechanism working in the world, may turn that around. A unit prefers units of his own sex, and therefore takes on the appropriate Signamancy, becoming foppish and fabulous. In a culture that values being strong and "manly", the homosexuality may be disapproved of not because of any intrinsic issues with homosexuality, but because it results in unappreciated Signamancy. In other words, in Erfworld, the stereotypes are not only true, but enforced by the natural laws of the universe, so rather than disapproved behavior resulting in being stereotyped negatively, the stereotypes seen as negative that result from behavior cause the behavior to become disapproved.

And this may not apply to Jillian, because the issue isn't with the homosexuality, per se, but with the linked Signamancy, and the Signamancy, the stereotypes, that apply to gay women, and especially bi women, are totally different than those that apply to gay men. In Jill's role as barbarian warrior princess, some butch Signamancy might even be helpful. Sure didn't hurt Xena any...

Even here on Earthworld, there are plenty of guys who think that two men gettin' it on is disgusting, but lesbians are hot...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby Selexor » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:16 am

Not to get too involved in the Homosexuality-In-Erfworld debate, but there is the obvious fact, no?

Heterosexuality is seen as "normal" and "natural" because heterosexuality is the basis of procreation. Because homosexuality doesn't perform this function, it's seen as "abnormal" and "unnatural". Leaving aside all cultural, ethical and religious arguments, what we have left is this simple lesson in biology. You could even make a decent argument that this is the reason homosexuality came to be seen as less pure and acceptable than heterosexuality in many cultures.

None of which applies in Erfworld due to the obvious fact that there is no such thing as procreation. There are no pregnancies, no babies, no births, no subsequence nor consequence from sex, unless the Titans decided that there should be some Erfworld version of an STI (cwabs?). And, if heterosexual sex serves no more of a biological function than homosexual sex, then both are equal as an act of emotional and physical pleasure. In which case, one of the biggest "gay people are bad" arguments has never existed within Erfworld.

Added to that is the fact that Erf women are obviously seen as equally skilled warriors and leaders when compared to men, and all of a sudden even the masculine / feminine roles become meaningless. Gender is nothing more than a symbol, like a city full of houses that nobody lives in. Men and women wield exactly equal power in this world, and as such, saying that a man isn't acting manly enough is... utterly meaningless. Because "manly" is a word without meaning.

In short: When Slately scorned Tramennis because he "wasn't enough of a warrior", I don't think that was a creative euphemism or an attempt to hide homophobia or anything of the sort. I think Slately was simply being honest and wishing that Tramennis really was more of a warrior, and nothing else. And I believe that for the simple reason that nothing else makes any sense.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby kreszantas » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:42 am

ryanroyce wrote:Great update, though I am somewhat confused by the use of "Pinochet" as the magic word. What does this reference mean in this context? If it was just about making money disappear, I'd have totally used "Madoff" instead. ;-)

ZaHgO wrote:I have followed this comic since issue 15, also I'm chilean, that's why I feel dissapointed in the use of Pinochet in such an insulting way.
I'm not a follower of him but neither against him. But it's clearly a mistake to take it so lightly without knowing the full context in wich the things happened.
What's worse, I was planning on ordering the books, but how could I now?


ZaHgO I understand your frustration. Please do not let comments on this or any other board for that matter stop you from enjoying Erfworld. I am not in anyway connected to Erfworld but I am an Political Science professor. The way Pinochet was interrepted by a previous poster was incorrect. Pinochet did three amazing unheard of things in your country. 1) He revitalized a free-enterprize economy 2) Allowed for multinational corporation to return allowing for massive expansion of your countries economy that were at one time expropriated by Allende's Popular Unity government 3) He created a "economic miracle" by making the phoney or useless money disappear bringing back your country from the verge of collapse.

The coin that Stately caused to vanish using Pinochet was a "fake" coin, not real smuckers therefore it showed that in parallel with Pinochet. Hope you find this summerization of 20+ years of history into a short paragraph satisfactory. If not, may the winds of internet take you to a new destination safely.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby teratorn » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:52 am

Selexor, but up to now different gender couples have been the norm in Erfworld with a blatant exception (Wanda and Jillian). Erfworldian Royals may view it as the way the titans meant it to be and look upon the likes of Trammenis or Jillian.

Not every unit in erfworld seems affected by sexual woes, we have seen no female gobwins, no female hobgobwins, no female twolls, no female marbits. Strange since Mung hinted that seeing Wanda aroused him somehow. There are female unipegataurs, though.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 042

Postby Selexor » Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:21 am

Well, to be fair, Teratorn... we've just not seen any gobwins, hobgobwins, twolls or marbits that appeared to have prominent breasts and/or long hair. Because, honestly, that's the only metric we'd have to judge them by - we have no idea what the difference is between female and male genders in a non-human species. Hell, it's entirely possible that these species don't actually have females at all.
That said, signamancy being what it is, you're probably right nonetheless. Which is odd! Humans and Vampires have distinct genders that mean nothing. For popped units, there's Archons which seem to be entirely female, while Twolls seem entirely male, and this also means nothing. And then we have Elves, which appear to have males and females, whereas other natural allies like Gobwins, Hobgobwins and Marbits, where we've not seen any that appear distinctly female.
Given that gender is, by definition, meaningless in Erfworld, you have to wonder what's up with that.

You also make a good point about couples in Erfworld. Heterosexual couples do seem to be the norm. And I wasn't implying that all people of Erfworld are automatically bisexual or anything! Merely that if people are calling Slately out as a homophobe, then I feel the need to point out that there is no biological nor sociological reason for a concept like "homsexuality" to exist at all, let alone in a negative light. The only explanation left would be that there was once an old Titanic Mandate that gay people are icky... which would kind of surprise me if it did exist.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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