Book 2 - Page 55

[JustDoug]

My opinion seems to be against what most everyone else thinks. I do not think Caesar is going to lead a coup. We really do not even know how that sort of thing works, it is probably very difficult and it really does not seem like popular opinion (or it's equivalent) is that far against Don. Besides, it was attempted before and Don was able to come out just fine. I think Don is more powerful than he is given credit for. While i admit it is possible that Caesar will want to lead a coup, i really do not think it is going to be successful.
Basically, i just do not think it is a sure deal, which is what most people seem to be saying. It is not like "oh, that is the last straw for Caesar, it is all over for Don." It is far from a simple thing to do to lead a coup, maybe even harder in Erfworld with Loyalty and such, and therefore it is not guaranteed to succeed (otherwise more people would try to do it).

I have a question though, i never really paid 100% attention to Caesar, have we actually seen Caesar show any signs of wanting to lead a coup or being mad at Don personally (obviously he really disagrees with some things he has done, but that does not mean he is about to rebel)? I would really appreciate the links or the references.

While there have been hints about new sides forming and how loyalty works revealed, from what I can parse from the rules show so far is that wht we think of as a coup d' etat is impossible- at least in the form familiar to our good 'ol StupidWorld.

This is only speculation, but going by the Slately/Trem 'discussion' about command and who's in charge earlier, I think an Erfworld-style coup would be, "You're still the ruler, but I'm the one now running things. You've screwed up too many times and are risking the Side. You sit on your throne and shut up; I'll be making the decisions now."

[Oberon]

Edit: And to add, the guy getting dusted right in the throat is awesome

I was wondering why we didn't see him dust, though.

I was quite amused by the "Front row of the Jetstone defenders in Panel 1 are the front row of the GK attackers in Panel 2" effect.
(Suitesned beat me to it, but I loved it also.)

Damn, Benjamin is a disloyal bastard! Unless he can justify his disobedience as being for Don's own good, isn't he supposed to disband? Don said "'s an order", and told Benjamin not to listen to what Caesar says. That's two orders disobeyed, and no disbanding occurred. Stanley wouldn't have been so slack with a disobedient unit, that's for sure.

1. Ha. Be discreet about digging a hole with a shovel!

Tunneling. With magic. The shovel is a prop, or a focus, or it helps to keep the poo at arms reach.

Sadly, the only thought that comes to mind right now is that the picture behind Don's desk is a really odd portrait to keep around of one's own daughter.

Maybe not, for a side that has a unit type called "skanks."

Does anyone else think that Don King could have handled that exchange with Benjamin better?

I mean, I can understand Benny's objections, but Don's reply to those objections seemed a bit . . . I dunno, weak.

I agree. I expected something like "Ben, siddown and make me that gem, or disband. Your call." Stanley certainly wouldn't have taken that sort of in-your-face disrespect.

I think at the time, her allies *weren't* in financial trouble. Jetstone lost all its money in the course of GK's campaign against them - which only started after Unaroyal fell.

I think that it might have started during TBfGK. Ansom,in speaking to the gathered RCC leaders, referenced how difficult the campaign was for all of them. That couldn't just have been the difficulty of cooperation, finances had to factor in there somewhere.

I still think Ace is just a red herring filler to cover Rob's boredom with this project, but if he actually comes to do anything I will admit I am wrong.

And why, oh 2 post twoll, do you feel that Rob is bored with the project? What secret insights are you privy to which we mere peons can only hope to learn from your generosity?

[Krennson]

My opinion seems to be against what most everyone else thinks. I do not think Caesar is going to lead a coup. We really do not even know how that sort of thing works, it is probably very difficult and it really does not seem like popular opinion (or it's equivalent) is that far against Don. Besides, it was attempted before and Don was able to come out just fine. I think Don is more powerful than he is given credit for. While i admit it is possible that Caesar will want to lead a coup, i really do not think it is going to be successful.
Basically, i just do not think it is a sure deal, which is what most people seem to be saying. It is not like "oh, that is the last straw for Caesar, it is all over for Don." It is far from a simple thing to do to lead a coup, maybe even harder in Erfworld with Loyalty and such, and therefore it is not guaranteed to succeed (otherwise more people would try to do it).

I have a question though, i never really paid 100% attention to Caesar, have we actually seen Caesar show any signs of wanting to lead a coup or being mad at Don personally (obviously he really disagrees with some things he has done, but that does not mean he is about to rebel)? I would really appreciate the links or the references.

While there have been hints about new sides forming and how loyalty works revealed, from what I can parse from the rules show so far is that wht we think of as a coup d' etat is impossible- at least in the form familiar to our good 'ol StupidWorld.

This is only speculation, but going by the Slately/Trem 'discussion' about command and who's in charge earlier, I think an Erfworld-style coup would be, "You're still the ruler, but I'm the one now running things. You've screwed up too many times and are risking the Side. You sit on your throne and shut up; I'll be making the decisions now."

might work..... or you do that, and THEN you say....

"I'm stepping outside and breaking our alliance with the hobgoblin guards. I'll be back in five minutes."

and four minutes later, you're king.

[genuis101]

I'm not trolling but I can see how that might be seen as such. (Seriously, I've been called on my tone before but I do believe what I am about to say.)

My thoughts:
I first brought up the issue with regards to the sever schedule slip this comic has suffered. While being unable to maintain the schedule here, Rob found the time to do a completely different project to completion which he then pushed heavily on this site. (A duel in the Somme) Add to that the fact that the 'text updates' have felt like empty filler for a long time. I think there are only 3-4 out of all 45 that actually need to be read, the rest can all be dropped and there would be no difference in presentation or understanding (this does not extend to the summer updates which are needed).
This has led me to the conclusion that Rob is bored of this project and would rather work on different one, but this is the one people come for. In my mind Ace is the prime example of the 'text updates' being pointless filler. I was wrong in thinking that we would never see him in the comic proper, but I still don't see him being coming a character in the story. There is a ton of speculation about how he and his stuff might fit in, but I suspect that he will never move out of the text updates and actually become a character that the main plot has to deal with.

This is not to say that the 'text updates' are bad, I just wish they bonus or extras to the comic, rather than filler between every episode.

[MarbitChow]

Add to that the fact that the 'text updates' have felt like empty filler for a long time. I think there are only 3-4 out of all 45 that actually need to be read, the rest can all be dropped and there would be no difference in presentation or understanding (this does not extend to the summer updates which are needed).

If you assume that the comics will be placed into a book, and that the text updates in between each page will not be included in those books, it makes perfect sense.
You see them as 'filler', others see them as 'bonus content'. Anything that is necessary to advance the story goes in the comic.
The text updates are opportunities to flesh out the world in much more detail.

The text updates are like the gourmet sauces you add to a steak.
Sure, the stake would be fine without them, and the sauces don't add much substance, but the additional flavor elevates the meal to a whole new level.

[Decorus]

Well some of the schedule slippage is related to the artist's speed at drawing pages. Some of the slippage is due to having to reletter the entire comic for publishing as a book.
Most of the text updates are interesting for what they tell us or don't tell us.

Almost everything we know about the great caster conspiracy to bring Parson is text updates.
Almost everything we know about Charlie and his powers are text updates.
More then likely the next text update will be about Sizemore, Janice and Maggie.
How ever we could be suprised and hear some more about Benny and his concerns.

[John Campbell]

While there have been hints about new sides forming and how loyalty works revealed, from what I can parse from the rules show so far is that wht we think of as a coup d' etat is impossible- at least in the form familiar to our good 'ol StupidWorld.

This is only speculation, but going by the Slately/Trem 'discussion' about command and who's in charge earlier, I think an Erfworld-style coup would be, "You're still the ruler, but I'm the one now running things. You've screwed up too many times and are risking the Side. You sit on your throne and shut up; I'll be making the decisions now."

Difference between the situation in Jetstone and the situation in Transylvito: Tramennis is not Slately's heir. (That's what this whole fuss is about.) Slately doesn't have one. This means that if anyone - foreign or domestic - croaks Slately, it's all over for Jetstone. The side ends, any units in the field immediately disband, those in cities go neutral (read: implacably hostile to all comers) and freeze in time unless foreign units enter their city. Tramennis can make Slately largely irrelevant, but he can't actually replace him as overlord unless he gets that promotion to heir, and any Jetstone unit croaking Slately is effectively committing suicide for not just themselves but the entire side.

Caesar, on the other hand, is Don King's heir. If Don gets croaked - by anyone, not necessarily Caesar - the overlordship of Transylvito passes on to Caesar, and life (literally) goes on for the other Transylvitan units. Don's in a precarious position, because he has both foreign enemies and domestic unrest, so if he doesn't have an heir, he becomes - like Slately - a single point of failure for the entire side. If Gobwin Knob takes Don out, and he hasn't got an heir, Transylvito ends. If he does have an heir - no matter who it is - that's a safety measure in the greater war, but leaves him vulnerable to domestic rebellion because they can now croak him without croaking themselves. He's in an especially precarious position because his current heir is more popular than he is, particularly among his active warlords and casters - i.e., the toughest and most free-willed units he's got, and the ones most likely to be able to snuff him in a surprise attack before he can disband them - and the replacement heir won't pop for several more turns yet. And popping that heir is itself a two-edged sword, because it's both a way to keep Caesar under control - with another heir, Caesar can be disbanded or threatened with disbandment without endangering the side - and a further provocation for Caesar's faction.

[Suitesned]

If the hobgobwins can't get through the tunnel because they are now heavies, will Parson be able to run through Sizemore's tunnel in the MK?

[Sixty]

If the hobgobwins can't get through the tunnel because they are now heavies, will Parson be able to run through Sizemore's tunnel in the MK?

Parson did mention going into the GK tunnels in a text update (where he nicked his foot with a pick axe) and a lot of those tunnels were created by Sizemore. Though maybe there are different classifications of tunnels a Dirtamancer can make, with some being faster/easier to make than others.

[Dr Pepper]

I'm not trolling but I can see how that might be seen as such. (Seriously, I've been called on my tone before but I do believe what I am about to say.)

My thoughts:
I first brought up the issue with regards to the sever schedule slip this comic has suffered. While being unable to maintain the schedule here, Rob found the time to do a completely different project to completion which he then pushed heavily on this site. (A duel in the Somme) Add to that the fact that the 'text updates' have felt like empty filler for a long time. I think there are only 3-4 out of all 45 that actually need to be read, the rest can all be dropped and there would be no difference in presentation or understanding (this does not extend to the summer updates which are needed).
This has led me to the conclusion that Rob is bored of this project and would rather work on different one, but this is the one people come for. In my mind Ace is the prime example of the 'text updates' being pointless filler. I was wrong in thinking that we would never see him in the comic proper, but I still don't see him being coming a character in the story. There is a ton of speculation about how he and his stuff might fit in, but I suspect that he will never move out of the text updates and actually become a character that the main plot has to deal with.

This is not to say that the 'text updates' are bad, I just wish they bonus or extras to the comic, rather than filler between every episode.

Disagree. The text updates are not just filler, every one of them either advances the plot or deepens the background.

[the_tick_rules]

Can't Don just order Ben to do it? Or was that a full on disobeyal?

[fjolnir]

Remember previous to TBfGK, GK didn't have many heavy units because the only way out of the city was either by air (dwagons) or tunnels (Spidews), most heavies cannot enter tunnels...

[the_tick_rules]

Spidews are heavy, so is Parson. There are some exceptions allowed.

[Krennson]

Can't Don just order Ben to do it? Or was that a full on disobeyal?

either that was a full-on disobeyal, or it would have been if Don had repeated that this was a direct order.

[BakaGrappler]

Can't Don just order Ben to do it? Or was that a full on disobeyal?

either that was a full-on disobeyal, or it would have been if Don had repeated that this was a direct order.

It was a full on disobedience, since Don DID say that it was an order.

[Selexor]

Well that's no secret. It was in only the fifth comicthat we saw the first example of this. An overlord gives an order to a caster, who not only disobeys the order but flat out tells him that's what's happening.

Ben can disobey without batting an eyelid if he honestly believes that he needs to. The question is, at what point does The Don lose the ability to disband him as a penalty? I mean if an overlord could disband any unit in their side just by thinking about it, then sides couldn't croak their own rulers in the first place. Perhaps a connection to the Loyalty score? At the moment Ben is able to disobey Don because his loyalty is high. There must be a turnover point, I think.

[Guppy]

Yet we're only aware of the Pliers doing one thing, creating decrypted troops. That's really powerful, sure, but it's just one power.

Two things, as a melee weapon the Pliers are insta-kill on undead. Ansom used them in that manner.

[Guppy]

"Don't write off the pigeons.
Sure, unled pigeons are real weak.
But with a warlord bonus?
Theyyy're...more like basic infantry units.
Havin' the chief warlord in the hex adds another bonus, so every pigeon we got here is like advanced infantry.
The ones in Stanley's personal stack'll have his full bonus, so they're almost like heavies.

And we have a flippin' ton of walnuts..."

Whoa... exploit!

[zilfallon]

Well that's no secret. It was in only the fifth comicthat we saw the first example of this. An overlord gives an order to a caster, who not only disobeys the order but flat out tells him that's what's happening.

Ben can disobey without batting an eyelid if he honestly believes that he needs to. The question is, at what point does The Don lose the ability to disband him as a penalty? I mean if an overlord could disband any unit in their side just by thinking about it, then sides couldn't croak their own rulers in the first place. Perhaps a connection to the Loyalty score? At the moment Ben is able to disobey Don because his loyalty is high. There must be a turnover point, I think.

Why do people think Don has lost the ability to disband? I hope you realize that disbanding Ben would do Don absolutely no good at the moment. Don isn't like Stanley.

[Selexor]

Oh, I don't think Don has lost the ability to disband units. It was a second idea I tacked onto the first one, just not especially well-phrased. The thought relevant to the conversation was that we have a precedent for Ben openly disobeying an order and defying the Don.

The irrelevant one was added to that. Namely: if a ruler can disband any unit he's popped, and a unit's loyalty has dropped to the point where he's clearly going to turn, it makes obvious sense that the ruler in question would simply disband the rogue unit. So there must be a point where the ruler does lose that ability, and I was theorising that the point comes at the moment that unit breaks loyalty.

In short, Don can disband Ben if he chooses... unless Ben actively turns on him.