Book 2 - Page 55

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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby the_tick_rules » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:40 pm

Dolph Lundgren?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:52 pm

Dolph Lundgren. He is a Master Weirdomancer. Or as we call 'em around here, Chemists.
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Consciences

Postby coyo » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:33 pm

I'm sooo curious as to what is going to happen next. Poor Sizemore, he has the look of being told to do something against his own conscience. I hope he'll be okey when he steps through the portal.

I don't know, but Charlie certainly is expecting Parson to go through the portal. (He knows he can go to the magic kingdom and he's heard that the portals are secure).

I don't know how things will shake down, but 'dramatic getaway', 'jetpack' and 'destruction'.

Slately cluemeter seems to have jumped ahead of Don's at this time. He's starting to listen to his own sense of right and wrong, rather than caring about trying to read the tealeaves as to what the titans say is right and wrong. It may not be all the way there. The next best option may be to disband if he doesn't either escape or get the gem.

Don seems to think Caesar couldn't comprehend the importance of getting the gem to Jetstone. Like it's something only a Royal could know. "I'm taking a risk to help a friend in need" would have a lot more traction than "its a Titan thing". Will Don get a clue, stop producing an heir, designate Caesar and realize who he has around him are the right people? The right units even?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby drachefly » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:25 pm

Caesar is already heir, it's too late to designate him.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby atalex » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:43 pm

BakaGrappler wrote:NOW I GET IT! Exactly what was nagging at me about the symmetric pattern of panel 1 and 2! I think I finally understand the final portion of the genius of those two panels and their scripting! Every time a member of the Decrypted front line Stack goes down, the dead from Jetstone are immediately raised and take their place in the stack! That is why Baron Antium is so far ahead, but with the casualties from Panel 1, Decrypted and right behind him! Because they are replacing the front line they themselves defeated, not just that they were added to Wanda's force.

Man, that is a brain bender.


Very good eye, Baka! I completely missed that. For those who don't see it yet, the diagonal row of JS troops at the bottom right of panel 1 includes the same troops, now in GK black, in a diagonal row at the bottom left of panel 2.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby atalex » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:49 pm

Dr Pepper wrote:"Sire" he began. Calling Slately `father' would not be appropriate at this time. "Sire, i have already spoken to the Transylvito moneymancer Benny. He says that there is no way out. Until 25% of the debt is paid off, we can't pop anything new or perform any upgrades. All the shmuckers we produce over the cost of basic maintenance go to Charlie's treasury, not ours. For the next 25%, Charlie gets half our production, and after that he gets a quarter of it until the debt is cleared. That's called a lien. Even if our side were disbanded, Charlie would automatically get the recovery value, up to the total amount still outstanding." Ossamer made a face, using mancy speak made his jaw ache. "Also, according to Benny, with the help of a weirdomancer, a moneymancer could temporarily stop the payments to Charlie, but only by stopping our ability to spend shmuckers on anything. Including maintenance."

Slately shook his head. "It just isn't right. If Charlie had any decency, he'd cancel the contract! He should be ashamed to take payment under these-- circumstances."

Ossamer knew what he meant. He was referring to the current, unspeakable status of Ansom. It was Ansom, as Chief Warlord, who had incurred the debt. For Charlie's part, he was supposed to help. Well what kind of help was that, that allowed such an outcome? Charlie could and did take refuge in the claim that he had exactly those things that he had promised, useless as they were. It was a case of `Letter and Sprit', Benny had said, another difficult term. Ossamer knew a simple term: `honor'. It was something Charlie would never understand.



Nicely done fic. My only objection is that, given Charlie's current near-panic over the JS situation, I imagine he would have agreed to some kind of modification of the terms (and probably even suggested terms that JS would have found agreeable).
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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby teratorn » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:00 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Dolph Lundgren. He is a Master Weirdomancer. Or as we call 'em around here, Chemists.


Yeah, talk about weird. The guy left MIT so he could starr in very bad movies.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby the_tick_rules » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:54 pm

Guess he wanted to be a moneymancer in that he has more money now.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby Oberon » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:39 pm

teratorn wrote:And how would you explain disbanding a caster to Caesar? Disbanding the caster wouldn't get you the gem, it would only feed Caesar's paranoia.

Caesar is the only unit powerful enough to save Transylvito if they're attacked. The Don has no leverage here, he can't afford losing Caesar.
You're right about Benjamin. Don needs him, if only to make the gem right now, but he probably helps stretch the TV treasury as a regular duty each turn. I disagree on Caesar. Don not only can afford to get rid of Caesar, but he should disband Caesar instantly the next time he utters a disloyal or argumentative word. Caesar is the heir, and that gives him too much leverage. When you've got other units disobeying direct orders and going to someone else, a particularly vocal, negative, and argumentative someone else, to get a second opinion on your orders, you're in a very shaky position, your authority has already been undermined. You need to get it back, and quickly. Don has a royal heir popping now, and getting rid of Caesar makes way for a new CWL. It also allows Don to keep Benjamin around, instead of disbanding him for collaborating (whether intentionally or not) with Caesar.
John Campbell wrote:Loyalty's an unknowable stat. Benny's a valuable and difficult-to-replace unit (as is Caesar). Disbanding him isn't going to get Don that gem. And disbanding units for disloyalty can't be good for the Loyalty of other marginal units, which kind of implies that there's a point of no return after which disbanding disloyal units turns into a purge that ends only when the overlord has no side left, or at least a side so badly crippled by the loss of its most valuable units that it's easy pickings for any external foes (and I'm not convinced that Don would do that... I'm pretty sure Stanley would, but I think Don would see the writing on the wall and bow out with whatever grace he could muster before he destroyed Transylvito that way).
How do you imagine the cascade occurring? This is an honest question. If Don disbands Caesar, we already know that there will be a loyalty penalty. But who else is going to stand up to Don, when without an heir killing Don kills the side? It'd be not only suicide, but mass murder. I suppose that casters and warlords might turn more often, but how is Don supposed to weigh that potential against his own death? If he wants to live on as king of TV, he needs to be the ruler of TV. And it appears as though Caesar has already poisoned the water. Get rid of Caesar and the waters might remain muddy, but until the heir pops there isn't much alternative for the other units but obedience, regicide with a huge helping of mass suicide, or an opportunity to turn. And casters are typically the only units allowed to turn rather than just being killed out of hand.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby Althernai » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:21 pm

Oberon wrote:Don not only can afford to get rid of Caesar, but he should disband Caesar instantly the next time he utters a disloyal or argumentative word. Caesar is the heir, and that gives him too much leverage. When you've got other units disobeying direct orders and going to someone else, a particularly vocal, negative, and argumentative someone else, to get a second opinion on your orders, you're in a very shaky position, your authority has already been undermined. You need to get it back, and quickly. Don has a royal heir popping now, and getting rid of Caesar makes way for a new CWL. It also allows Don to keep Benjamin around, instead of disbanding him for collaborating (whether intentionally or not) with Caesar.

Do we have a reference for how disbanding actually works? It's not clear to me that he can disband a disloyal unit. If disbanding is an order, then Caesar can disobey.

If Don disbands Caesar, we already know that there will be a loyalty penalty. But who else is going to stand up to Don, when without an heir killing Don kills the side?

I don't think they're going to stand up to them, but the casters can easily run off to the Magic Kingdom. What the warlords could do immediately is not as clear, but when the time comes for confrontation with Gobwin Knob, they certainly can switch sides (Wanda & Co. have been giving people that option for a while now).
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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby the_tick_rules » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:49 pm

there is a disbanding article in the wiki. Though is it everything about disbanding and Rob doesn't have anything more to add later? Dunno.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby Lamech » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:04 pm

Oberon wrote:You're right about Benjamin. Don needs him, if only to make the gem right now, but he probably helps stretch the TV treasury as a regular duty each turn. I disagree on Caesar. Don not only can afford to get rid of Caesar, but he should disband Caesar instantly the next time he utters a disloyal or argumentative word. Caesar is the heir, and that gives him too much leverage. When you've got other units disobeying direct orders and going to someone else, a particularly vocal, negative, and argumentative someone else, to get a second opinion on your orders, you're in a very shaky position, your authority has already been undermined. You need to get it back, and quickly. Don has a royal heir popping now, and getting rid of Caesar makes way for a new CWL. It also allows Don to keep Benjamin around, instead of disbanding him for collaborating (whether intentionally or not) with Caesar.
Disbanding Ceaser would be a really bad idea. The fact of the matter is the casters can just leave. Worse even is the warlords who can turn the second they get into combat. (Not only do they eat upkeep, it messes up planning and gives units to GK.) Sure right now Ceaser has a chance of attempting a coup, but disbanding him has a very good chance of costing him bunny, Ben, and a number of warlords. Ceaser has basically been shown to be right on just about everything, so I bet it would be even worse now. Plus Ceaser is basically essential to the mighty Translovito style.

He can't disband Ceaser because its a death knell. They are on the edge right now. They lose if Ben goes or a few to many warlords turn. Plus if Ceaser really wanted to stage a coup? Call GK and ask to deal. Dwagons show up and he turns, he could even get GK to ambush them with archons or something since the warlords don't fly with screens of bats up. While disbanding Ceaser might* save Don from a coup. I think it has a much better chance of costing him a big chunk of his leadership, and caster.

*I say might because if Ceaser may not be actually planning a coup. He thinks Don's decisions have seriously endangered the side, and he is ticked that he has been removed from heir-ship. That might be enough to make him try a coup, but he might simply want Don to not get himself killed. Duty may be compelling him to attempt to get a better strategy.
Get rid of Caesar and the waters might remain muddy, but until the heir pops there isn't much alternative for the other units but obedience, regicide with a huge helping of mass suicide, or an opportunity to turn. And casters are typically the only units allowed to turn rather than just being killed out of hand.
Normally that is the case. GK on the other hand would prefer units turning willingly to their side. So when GK comes knocking they can go a turning.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby teratorn » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:01 pm

Without Caesar's bonus their chances of winning any major battle will drop significantly. Given the way Vinny described how important Caesar bonus was, and how much stronger his stack was, it seems he is way above the other TV warlords, including Vinny. I don't think the Don can afford disbanding Caesar now.

Oberon wrote: I disagree on Caesar. Don not only can afford to get rid of Caesar, but he should disband Caesar instantly the next time he utters a disloyal or argumentative word. Caesar is the heir, and that gives him too much leverage.


Ben is disobeying an order, and there are stringent conditions on that. Shouldn't Ben necessarily keep quiet if he thinks Caesar might topple the Don? Ben acts as if Caesar is more important than the Don for their side. It's a bit like duty forcing Parson to cheat at the end of the battle for GK instead of just sending the casters to the MK.

You're right that being the heir makes him too powerful since he can claim the throne, but he has nevertheless shown to be pretty loyal. He complained but went grumbling to his corner and kept doing his part for Transylvito. If he ever makes a move for the throne he'll be doing it for TV not for himself. I expect him to use his strength to impose his own terms on the Don, not to croak him. Jillian may not like what is coming.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby coyo » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:11 pm

teratorn wrote:Jillian may not like what is coming.


I know she likes the megalogwiffs, but she seems unconcerned for anything past turning Ansom at the moment.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby Lamech » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:23 pm

teratorn wrote:Without Caesar's bonus their chances of winning any major battle will drop significantly. Given the way Vinny described how important Caesar bonus was, and how much stronger his stack was, it seems he is way above the other TV warlords, including Vinny. I don't think the Don can afford disbanding Caesar now.
Yeah, His stack was stronger than the other warlords. It seems like hex bonuses are about half the chiefs level. (See Wanda and Ansom.) So that+regular bonus would imply he is double their levels and then some. Of course the hex bonus might max out at some point. Which would imply he's merely more than five levels above the rest of the warlords. Dude is majorly important for their side.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby JohnATallon » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:35 pm

teratorn wrote:Without Caesar's bonus their chances of winning any major battle will drop significantly. Given the way Vinny described how important Caesar bonus was, and how much stronger his stack was, it seems he is way above the other TV warlords, including Vinny. I don't think the Don can afford disbanding Caesar now.

Oberon wrote: I disagree on Caesar. Don not only can afford to get rid of Caesar, but he should disband Caesar instantly the next time he utters a disloyal or argumentative word. Caesar is the heir, and that gives him too much leverage.


Ben is disobeying an order, and there are stringent conditions on that. Shouldn't Ben necessarily keep quiet if he thinks Caesar might topple the Don? Ben acts as if Caesar is more important than the Don for their side. It's a bit like duty forcing Parson to cheat at the end of the battle for GK instead of just sending the casters to the MK.

You're right that being the heir makes him too powerful since he can claim the throne, but he has nevertheless shown to be pretty loyal. He complained but went grumbling to his corner and kept doing his part for Transylvito. If he ever makes a move for the throne he'll be doing it for TV not for himself. I expect him to use his strength to impose his own terms on the Don, not to croak him. Jillian may not like what is coming.


Caesar is also important because he is their Chief Warlord. The King makes the general policy decisions, while the Warlord makes the decisions that impact the war efforts. Ben is likely seeking the Chief Warlord's opinion because the decision to loan the money will impact Transylvito's ability to fight, may result in some disbanding, and will leave the kingdom with no margin for error or bad luck. Furthermore, the Chief Warlord is the person in the best position to determine if Jetstone can survive this fight to be able to repay the loan.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:37 pm

coyo wrote:
I know she likes the megalogwiffs, but she seems unconcerned for anything past turning Ansom at the moment.


Jillian admitted to needing schmuckers from Charlie to pay for Vanna, and she might be cut off from that now, so turning Ansom may depend on TV sponsorship.


Regarding what could happen if Don loses his warlords' loyalty: a warlord managing an outlying city could potentially order the units under him to stand down and allow themselves to be captured. Mechanically, I guess that would be ordering the other units to move from the garrison zone of a city to a non-garrison zone (such as outer walls, tunnels, port) and then surrendering the garrison to air units of the enemy. TV could lose whole cities to the Carpudlians if Don disbands Caesar, especially if Bunny is unavailable or unwilling to remotely countermand the disloyal warlord's orders.

In contrast to GK, where Parson and Sizemore felt their surrender would lead to the slaughter of all the infantry, twolls, etc., TV seems to rely more on units that are nonspeaking (bats, battle bears, firebirds) or that seem disinclined to independent thinking (dolls); I imagine that such units would be incorporated by a capturing side. In fact, it seems that TV has reached a point that some cities might have only a single warlord - so if that warlord turns, that's it!

(Non sequitur: I wonder if any of TV's units were made by Holly Shortcake.)
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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby John Campbell » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:44 am

Oberon wrote:How do you imagine the cascade occurring? This is an honest question. If Don disbands Caesar, we already know that there will be a loyalty penalty. But who else is going to stand up to Don, when without an heir killing Don kills the side? It'd be not only suicide, but mass murder. I suppose that casters and warlords might turn more often, but how is Don supposed to weigh that potential against his own death? If he wants to live on as king of TV, he needs to be the ruler of TV. And it appears as though Caesar has already poisoned the water. Get rid of Caesar and the waters might remain muddy, but until the heir pops there isn't much alternative for the other units but obedience, regicide with a huge helping of mass suicide, or an opportunity to turn. And casters are typically the only units allowed to turn rather than just being killed out of hand.

As I already said, disbanding Caesar would make it impossible to launch a coup against Don, at least as anything more than a suicide run. Temporarily. Until the new heir pops. At that point, Don's right back to square one, except now he's out his best warlord and the rest of his leadership corps is even more pissed at him and even less Loyal. Oh, and the guy who takes over after he gets croaked is a green and unknown Royal rather than a tough, competent, and popular commoner warlord. Maybe that's better if you're Don.

And that's assuming that the side lasts long enough to pop that heir after disbanding their high-level Chief Warlord (who is, again, also their Heir, thus making Don, like Slately, into a single point of failure for the entire side) when faced with external enemies like Gobwin Knob's Arkentoolbox + Potato Warlord steamroller, or the less powerful but perhaps more immediately threatening sides like those guys they've been running the protection racket on (I forget their names), or whatever other local equivalent of Haggar they may have.

And making a successful coup impossible is not the same thing as compelling obedience. The options, as Benny has just amply demonstrated, are not a binary "croak Don" or "ask how high on the way up". There's plenty of spectrum of resistance in between. Don has the blunt weapon of disbandment to threaten Benny and the Jets with, but every time he uses it on one of them - probably even every time he threatens to use it on one of them - everyone's Loyalty drops, and the likelihood that he'll be able to get his way without threatening it again drops. What's he going to do if they don't obey after he waves disbandment at them? Disband the lot of them? This is where that cascade kicks in.

I'm not sure at this point that there's anything that Don can do to ensure that he lives on, as king or no. I kind of suspect that before long, he's going to have to make a decision as to whether it's better, in whatever scales he uses to weigh such decisions, for Transylvito to be ruled by a commoner, or not to exist at all.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby GaryThunder » Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:59 am

And how would you explain disbanding a caster to Caesar? Disbanding the caster wouldn't get you the gem, it would only feed Caesar's paranoia.


I can just see Caesar's reaction when (not if) he finds out that Don disbanded Benny just to stop Benny from talking to him. It involves a lot of blood.

I'm not sure at this point that there's anything that Don can do to ensure that he lives on, as king or no. I kind of suspect that before long, he's going to have to make a decision as to whether it's better, in whatever scales he uses to weigh such decisions, for Transylvito to be ruled by a commoner, or not to exist at all.


It's tough. On one hand, losing Transylvito entirely cripples/kills Faq, and with the fall of Jetstone and the beheading of Haggar, that's the RCC pretty much finished against the might of the Arkenpliers. But on the other hand, if Transylvito persists but loses its Royal status, it can't really claim a stake in this fight of Royalty v. Arkentools, not to mention that Caesar would cut off Faq anyway upon assuming Rulership.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 55

Postby Spot » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:13 am

I can't believe that nobody has yet mentioned the obvious sequence of coming events:

(a) Don has Benny make a gem worth a lot of money.
(b) the gem needs to be physically dispatched as quickly as possible to Stately.
(c) the quickest route between Don and Stately, is through the magic kingdom.
(d) a huge hulking warlord, who can cut the head off of a war-weinerdog in single stroke of the sword, is about to be traveling through the magic kingdom...
(e) ...and using the exact same gate that the gem courier will need to go through.
(f) PROFIT!!! (for Parson).
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