Book 2 – Text Updates 043

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby ryanroyce » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:21 pm

Goshen wrote:My sense of the dramatic tells me that the moment Ansom turns, he will crumble to dust. His last words to Jillian will be "I love you..."


I was thinking that, too, though in regards to Ossomer instead of Ansom.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby Lamech » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:36 pm

Morgaln wrote:Thing is, if turnamancy could just change loyalty and world view suddenly like the pliers can, then why would people regard the decrypted as abominations? It would just look like turnamancy to them, or perhaps like a linked turnamancy/croakamancy effect, and not as horrible, world-altering as they have made it out to be. There needs to be a big difference between how turnamancy works and how the pliers affect people for that to make sense.
Because the royals are absolutly stunning in their hippocrasy? Seriously see how Tram responded to the cwap attack. He is really mad at the treachery, but Beau is honored for her sacrifce. Its nothing more tha the royals being total hippocrates.

In fact I note the only major changes we have noted in the decrypted are an altered loyalty and changing their religious system to fit. (I also note that the system isn't even the same as Wanda's. Ansom said he didn't want another unaroyal while Wanda didn't seem to care.) Wriggley still wanted the same things he always did (just with "unaroyal" replaced with "GK"), Ansom is still the same fantic. Duncan talks about how before he was jittery before battle, but now he is perfectly calm and trusting....
While we don't have a lot of examples of turned we might be able to make an argument that decryption is even less destructive of their personalities.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby Carne » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:39 pm

Estelindis wrote:
Whispri wrote:It's interesting to see how Jillian can reconcile keeping Ansom alive with killing the other decrypted. Glad he called her on it.


Especially given they cost no upkeep. Technically, she could keep them prisoner indefinitely at minimal to no cost to her side, and thus bring along as many as her flying units have room to capture (assuming they have any room left, of course) in addition to the regular encrypted units.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby Oberon » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:56 pm

Musrum wrote:
Aquillion wrote:
Oberon wrote:Having him, say, getting talked into switching sides would be interesting.

Yeah, having decrypted immune to turnamacy, but not turning will certainly confirm the direction this is going.
I did not say that! Please fix your tags.
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
Oberon wrote:Vanna isn't called a witch, demoness, etc.

I don't think we know yet how people feel about Turnamancers. The only non-Unaroyal people that we know have interacted with her are Slately and Faqians. The only comment that has been made about her was Jillian's disappointment that she wasn't like Wanda - as if she expected her to be like Wanda.
We do have Tram and Slately's conversations after the *ptui* kingworld spell. They regard it calmly, and refer to it (something like, not gonna look it up) a "nice bit of turnamancy" or some such similar positive and almost admiring terminology. As opposed to Wanda, who is a witch, etc. and who they plan to croak "just in case" (again, prolly not an exact quote). Given their clear bias against croakamancy, I'd expect to have seen some mention if there was a similar bias against turnamancy. Is it conclusive? No, but the personalities of the characters involved weigh heavily IMO that turnamancers are viewed as positively as any other of the casters we've seen associated with Jetstone.
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I think he cares about Wanda, Jack and maybe some of the warlords if he has interacted with them. I don't think he was thinking about some random purple dwagon or hobgobwin and the reader is certainly not given enough incentive to care.

"I've never killed anything bigger than a spider before today, and now I've caused the deaths of a couple of thousand enemy units. People. Couple thousand people."
About the human and humanoid types, he cares, and feels guilt at having caused their deaths. Dwagons? Not so much. He was considering harvesting one just because it was an awesome concept that he could kill one with a single blow...
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby Oberon » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:15 pm

reignofevil wrote:Specifically, before decryption, you could chose to die instead of turn.
Where did you get that idea? I don't recall anyone choosing to die rather than turn. Is this pure speculation on your part, or can you cite something from the strip which supports that assertion?
Goshen wrote:My sense of the dramatic tells me that the moment Ansom turns, he will crumble to dust. His last words to Jillian will be "I love you..."
And if this happens, my sense of the board drama predicts that the debates will be TRULY EPIC over whether he was first finally free of Wanda and was expressing his true sentiments to Jillian and second dusted for lack of support from the 'pliers, or if he had first turned and therefore loved Jillian because he had to, but second dusted because he was no longer supported by the 'pliers.

Because, you know, everyone will have an opinion on the matter, and no one will have anything but that opinion to support their side. :twisted:
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:50 am

badninja wrote:Why do I feel that Ansom knows Parson's plan and why the city's have a small number of the decrypted in them. This update only showed us two things that one Jillian is somewhat better off then we previously knew, at least able to support her side for 8 turns. Second that Ossomer could turn from GK. That last one is big I think that the pliers just bring the unit back to life with a high loyalty score for the wielder of the pliers that works like regular loyalty.


I do not think the update tells us anything about whether a decrypted unit can be turned. It just indicates what it would feel like to be decrypted (assuming Ansome is honest with Jillian). . Ansome thinks he is choosing to remain loyal to Wanda. The question is whether Ansome is capable of choosing anything else.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby GaryThunder » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:32 am

Dwagons are beasts. But Parson clearly sees the Hobgobwins, at least, as people. He was talking up a storm with Vurp, and he seemed like he was treating him with respect or at least politeness.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby badninja » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:02 pm

pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:I do not think the update tells us anything about whether a decrypted unit can be turned. It just indicates what it would feel like to be decrypted (assuming Ansome is honest with Jillian). . Ansome thinks he is choosing to remain loyal to Wanda. The question is whether Ansome is capable of choosing anything else.


Sorry I was not clear, I was ensuing that GK has a large living army. All anyone has seen so far was the decrypted leaving me with the impression that all their forces where under Wanda's control. I was stating that this was part of Parson's plan to back up Wanda by having units that can fight twice for the same side. I can see how I did not state this properly. This army has yet to play its part and I feel that Jillian is missing something very important here.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby gazes_also » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:12 pm

badninja wrote:Why do I feel that Ansom knows Parson's plan and why the city's have a small number of the decrypted in them. This update only showed us two things that one Jillian is somewhat better off then we previously knew, at least able to support her side for 8 turns. Second that Ossomer could turn from GK. That last one is big I think that the pliers just bring the unit back to life with a high loyalty score for the wielder of the pliers that works like regular loyalty.


Don't think so.
Think of it in terms of push/pull. Normal loyalty is a pull - a unit has the capacity to be loyal, the strength of that loyalty depends to a large extent on the leader exerting the pull. Higher order units, WLs and casters, have some control over how much they are affected by that pull. The direction of the pull may be changed if a unit is turned but the nature of the unit - it's capacity for loyality - is not.

Devotion to Wanda/pliers is a push. It is in the fundamental nature of a decrypted to follow the pliers, to the extent that they see it as a freely made choice - it isn't because their nature allows no other option. To turn a decrypted would mean changing the unit as much as decrypting it did.

Normal troops are drawn to follow, decrypted are driven.

However, as the number of decrypted increases that drive might weaken in newer units, it looks like it is weaker in Ossomer that in Ansom...

Finally, if Jillian were truly cynical and heartless she would have kept a few decrypted to use as lab rats for experimentation with the turning process to figure it out before trying it on Ansom.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby JimSox5 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:54 pm

gazes_also wrote:However, as the number of decrypted increases that drive might weaken in newer units, it looks like it is weaker in Ossomer that in Ansom...


Or could it be that Ossomer has never had strong convictions, he was just good at following orders? We didn't get to see a lot of him pre-decrypted, but that would maybe explain why he was apparently behind Ansom in the pecking order.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby Sieggy » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:16 pm

I have to wonder if a Royal as opposed to a (commoner) caster attuned to the pliers, would they regard the decrypted and the wielder of the Arkenpliers in the same way? If Ansom had attuned and was capable of decrypting, would Slately regard him as an abomination or rather someone who could grant their fallen foes new life in service to Jetstone? That the Titans had given them the opportunity to follow the Titanic Mandate in a manner pleasing to the Royals?

Remember back to the conversation between Ansom and Vinnie in Book 1 . . . Ansom was upset that Stanley, a non-royal, was leading a side and used his belief that Stanley was a regicide as a justification for this attitude. Vinnie seemed rather skeptical of this, and said so. And it was Ansom, not Wanda, who developed and promoted the idea of Toolism. Wanda wasn't promoting an agenda, other than following the path of Fate that would bring the Tools together. I rather got the impression she was out a-conquering because that would be the surest way to bring the Tools together, and besides, that's just what one DOES in this world. Conquer or be conquered.

Trem is now aware from Jillian that even Wanda isn't a Toolist, and once he has an opportunity to reflect on what he's been told (remember, he's been a but preoccupied so far this turn), he may realize that all is not what he thought it was. Since he knows what a pompous boob his brother was, this may present him with options he hadn't considered before. Also, with Ansom gone (and assuming Ossomer survives), how will the war be presented? Will Ossomer continue with the 'New Titanic Mandate' trope, or not? And would Wanda even give a Dwagon Dookie one way or another?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby Housellama » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:05 pm

Here's a thought.

Perhaps Turnamancy doesn't affect Loyalty in little chunks. Instead, it changes a unit's Loyalty all in one go, and by a set amount. The higher the Loyalty, the harder it is to turn them. Also, the less Loyal they will end up being immediately AFTER they are turned. Think of it as a sliding scale. Turnamancy flips the unit, modifying Loyalty all at once, essentially. (This is all supposition, but it kinda fits and has a nice symmetry).

A unit with a strong Loyalty to its old side would end up having a low Loyalty to its new side, and vice versa. See the illustration below for an example

Side A Side B
100 ------------------------0---------------------- 100
______x__________y

Now, let's say Unit x and Unit y are both being turned. This is their Loyalty beforehand. Then they are Turned.


Side A Side B
100 ------------------------0------------------------ 100
________________________x__________y

This would be the Loyalty afterwards.

If a Turnamancer doesn't have the chops to turn them on a single turn, then they can build up effort over multiple turns.

Just a thought.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby Goshen » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:15 pm

Oberon wrote:
Goshen wrote:My sense of the dramatic tells me that the moment Ansom turns, he will crumble to dust. His last words to Jillian will be "I love you..."
And if this happens, my sense of the board drama predicts that the debates will be TRULY EPIC over whether he was first finally free of Wanda and was expressing his true sentiments to Jillian and second dusted for lack of support from the 'pliers, or if he had first turned and therefore loved Jillian because he had to, but second dusted because he was no longer supported by the 'pliers.

Because, you know, everyone will have an opinion on the matter, and no one will have anything but that opinion to support their side. :twisted:

:lol: Well said!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:40 am

Housellama wrote:Here's a thought.

Perhaps Turnamancy doesn't affect Loyalty in little chunks. Instead, it changes a unit's Loyalty all in one go, and by a set amount. The higher the Loyalty, the harder it is to turn them.


OMG. Turnamancy is Quantum Mechanics.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby drachefly » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:53 am

... no. Just, no.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby Housellama » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:55 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Housellama wrote:Here's a thought.

Perhaps Turnamancy doesn't affect Loyalty in little chunks. Instead, it changes a unit's Loyalty all in one go, and by a set amount. The higher the Loyalty, the harder it is to turn them.


OMG. Turnamancy is Quantum Mechanics.


I'm not sure whether I love you or hate you right now.

...that would put Jillian watching Vanna in the dungeon and thinking she's not playing hard enough in a decidedly odd context.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:14 pm

Housellama wrote:I'm not sure whether I love you or hate you right now.


I didn't observe what you did there.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby Housellama » Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:35 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Housellama wrote:I'm not sure whether I love you or hate you right now.


I didn't observe what you did there.


*facepalm*
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby drachefly » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:54 am

What's the conjugate variable of knowing what he did there? Because now we have a chance to get it very well defined.
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