Book 2 – Text Updates 043

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby Raza » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:40 am

I'd say Jillian's decision to capture only the living is at least potentially logically sound. The turning of decryped units is an unknown - the turning of living ones is not. She can only capture so many, so everything else being equal it makes sense to capture the living. Only in Ansom's case is it not.

Ansom's also not one to talk about mass executions, after Wiggley's first update. Frankly, so far it seems his only real complaint is her skipping conventional reconnaissance... Jetstone for life, I guess.

SteveMB wrote:If the Decrypted have true free will, it seems unlikely that all the thousands that have been created would be so uniformly loyal to Wanda.

Why not?

People are supposed to have free will - at least insofar as free will is possible - and we're tediously uniform, too.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:47 am

Raza wrote:I'd say Jillian's decision to capture only the living is at least potentially logically sound. The turning of decryped units is an unknown - the turning of living ones is not. She can only capture so many, so everything else being equal it makes sense to capture the living. Only in Ansom's case is it not.


Erfworld as usual, in other words. So given that, why would Ansom want to side with her, when that other one offers a chance for something completely different?

Raza wrote:Ansom's also not one to talk about mass executions, after Wiggley's first update. Frankly, so far it seems his only real complaint is her skipping conventional reconnaissance... Jetstone for life, I guess.


Aaah, that debate shall rise again! I suppose in Ansom's mind those were not executions. Just conversion by temporary incapacitation.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby ryanroyce » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:17 am

Raza wrote:I'd say Jillian's decision to capture only the living is at least potentially logically sound. The turning of decryped units is an unknown - the turning of living ones is not. She can only capture so many, so everything else being equal it makes sense to capture the living. Only in Ansom's case is it not.

Ansom's also not one to talk about mass executions, after Wiggley's first update. Frankly, so far it seems his only real complaint is her skipping conventional reconnaissance... Jetstone for life, I guess.


I suspect the point of contention was more that Jillian was specifically excluding the Decrypted from her "recruitment drive". If she was simply executing everyone, I don't think Ansom would have complained (much; she would still be croaking his Side's units). It's not like the Decrypted cost upkeep anyway...

...OTOH, Jillian probably doesn't know that yet. She will learn this soon enough, once she realizes that she doesn't have to pay for Ansom, but for now there is some logic to both Jillian's and Ansom's behavior here. He knows that Decrypted don't cost upkeep, so he would feel that their executions are particularly callous.

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby genuis101 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:25 am

Running on this about Ansom calling Jillian out on not scouting, look back at the start of the comic. He was going to do the same thing, till Parson through Wanda told him he was going to scout. And again Ansom had to see that Parson had beaten him again though in understanding, not battle. He seems to be finally growing up and learning from Parson. And lesson 1: Be cautious, cause you don't know what the enemy have may have up their sleeve. I would wager most of his anger is directed at himself for having failed to grasp it the first time, and at having been upstaged again.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby badninja » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:40 am

Why do I feel that Ansom knows Parson's plan and why the city's have a small number of the decrypted in them. This update only showed us two things that one Jillian is somewhat better off then we previously knew, at least able to support her side for 8 turns. Second that Ossomer could turn from GK. That last one is big I think that the pliers just bring the unit back to life with a high loyalty score for the wielder of the pliers that works like regular loyalty.

The fact that the city had a majority of its forces living should not be a surprise to any gamer, which Parson is, they are there to simply hold and give fresh bodies when Wanda would get there on the relay system. Ansom knew this and assumed that a force would be soon coming to stop her. The only reason the backup never came was Parson is distracted by his plans for Jetstone that he missed this golden opportunity. Over all great update Rob and Xin!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby Beeskee » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:59 am

Great update. :D


Raza wrote:...Wiggley's...


Wrigley. Wrigley the Spearman. As in, wrigley spearmint gum. :D

Sorry. I just had to point that out. ;) I love the puns.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby SteveMB » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:01 am

Whispri wrote:
SteveMB wrote:If the Decrypted have true free will, it seems unlikely that all the thousands that have been created would be so uniformly loyal to Wanda.

One could say much the same thing about the thousands of soldiers who've fought and died for Jetstone in this war.

The difference is that ordinary Erfworld units don't even claim to have true free will; they are bound to their side and Overlord by Loyalty and Duty. Even things like coups seem to require the unit to believe that it is acting against its superior in order to serve the good of its side as a whole.

On the other hand, it's unclear how much of a difference this actually is. Subjectively, inside their own heads (now that we've gotten glimpses of some unit's thoughts in the text updates), Loyalty and Duty seem to give rise to the same sort of thoughts as small-l-small-d loyalty and duty in the real world, for both living and Decrypted units. For all we know, the "unseeable stats" could simply be how Erfworlders interpret these things (by analogy to the visible stats that clearly govern other aspects of their lives), no more real than epicycles and phlogiston.
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby Sixty » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:20 am

Interesting update. Though technically shouldn't Faq have temporarily had FIVE cities? The 3 originals and then the one they stole from Jitterati and then this one for a brief minute or two? I suppose the obvious conclusion there is that they razed the Jitterati city as well.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby Beeskee » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:46 am

Yeah they razed Jitterati's city, I think it was said that it would have been too hard for FAQ to retain the city, probably because of distance and terrain.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby effataigus » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:47 am

Ansom needs to learn when to keep his mouth shut. If I didn't know better I would think he's trying to get Jillian to turn around and head back to Spacerock.

Of course, perhaps he is. Maybe the wounded megalos would give the archons something to finish off and give Wanda more bodies.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby gazes_also » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:54 am

Ansom here shows himself to be a good strategic thinker as well as tactical thinker.
Jillian is just thinking of turning Ansom, not any other decrypted, however Ansom sees that if decrypted can be turned at all then turning them en masse has to be the objective.

Turned decrypted would negate Wanda's major tactical advantage, the ability to use a side's own fallen units against it. An army of turned decrypts would be a highly effective force to use against Wanda, as it turns it back to a straight up fight to the dusting.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby multilis » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:56 am

"The fact that Ansom claims to not be a mere puppet of Wanda does not mean he in fact is not. He might lie, or he might deceive himself. This update leaves that old debate unresolved- because we're not entirely sure that Ansom is a puppet of Wanda either."

I think no one knows for sure including Ansom or Wanda, but... Wanda suspects that decrypted can turn, she left Ansom behind at the bridge for that reason. (She gave reason that she worried about his reaction to killing father/brother)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby gameboy1234 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:19 pm

Ytaker wrote:I'd guess this indicates you can modify your own loyalty stat. Ansom's is heavily weighted in favour of Wanda, who cares about him more than Jill who kills decrypted. If she does try to turn him he may well prove more resistant to turning that she had anticipated. Even more so than a conventional decrypted.



I think it's the other way around. Ansom can't modify his loyalty stat, so he rationalizes it as "will of the Titans."
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby JohnATallon » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:47 pm

badninja wrote:Why do I feel that Ansom knows Parson's plan and why the city's have a small number of the decrypted in them. This update only showed us two things that one Jillian is somewhat better off then we previously knew, at least able to support her side for 8 turns. Second that Ossomer could turn from GK. That last one is big I think that the pliers just bring the unit back to life with a high loyalty score for the wielder of the pliers that works like regular loyalty.

The fact that the city had a majority of its forces living should not be a surprise to any gamer, which Parson is, they are there to simply hold and give fresh bodies when Wanda would get there on the relay system. Ansom knew this and assumed that a force would be soon coming to stop her. The only reason the backup never came was Parson is distracted by his plans for Jetstone that he missed this golden opportunity. Over all great update Rob and Xin!


Good idea, but at the end there you're thinking like a real time strategist and not a turn based one. Ansom would know no help could come to the city until Gobwin Knob's next turn. When help arrived, then Wanda would be able to decrypt the bodies and use her relayed forces and her new decrypts to re-take the city and force Jillian's forces to flee or die.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby ShirKhan » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:52 pm

multilis wrote:Wanda suspects that decrypted can turn, she left Ansom behind at the bridge for that reason.


No, as far as I can recall, she actually left him behind because she was pissed off that Jillian might have come for him and not for her. (Parson hints something like that directly before, to which she doesn't react well. See http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2009-12-24.jpg)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby the_tick_rules » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:08 pm

I remember Wanda was worried Ansom might have residual hesitation about croaking jetstone and jillian.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby Akkristor » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:10 pm

"Least they're free of Wanda,"

Ironic that she says this as she is planning to use her Turnamancer to force a loyalty change in GK troops. Does she really not see a difference? Wanda's decryption forces a loyalty change postmortem, while her turnamancer Vanna's magic simply does the same to the living. Stanley, Wanda, Jillian; all the troops are under someone's control, but it's only the decrypted ones she seems to have a problem with?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby SteveMB » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:29 pm

Akkristor wrote:"Least they're free of Wanda,"

Ironic that she says this as she is planning to use her Turnamancer to force a loyalty change in GK troops. Does she really not see a difference? Wanda's decryption forces a loyalty change postmortem, while her turnamancer Vanna's magic simply does the same to the living. Stanley, Wanda, Jillian; all the troops are under someone's control, but it's only the decrypted ones she seems to have a problem with?


She might share the general feeling among the Coalition that the Decrypted are un-Titanly abominations (like Uncroaked but worse). A more obvious possibility is that the issues, hell, subscriptions, between her and Wanda are coloring her judgment (again).
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby GaryThunder » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:49 pm

Jillian's being a hypocrite and Ansom called her out on it. I have to respect him for that. And Jillian is an idiot if she thinks she can win Ansom's heart, even through Turnamancy, after slaughtering his fellow Popped Again brothers and sisters like that. If she were at all smart, she would have made sure Ansom couldn't see or didn't know about what she did with the Decrypted units.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 043

Postby Ansan Gotti » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:00 pm

Love most text updates, but this one was kind of meh to me. Most of that is probably because I can't stand Jillian. Part of it, though, is that I'm not sure I like turnamancy and I'm not sure I like the turning mechanic, at least as it has been portrayed thus far.
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