Book 2 – Page 56

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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby Althernai » Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:12 am

Smoker wrote:Or in other words, support the sides that are the greatest threat to GK, without actually putting yourself in GKs sights.

Yes, but at great cost to Transylvito itself. And for the sake of what? Royalty, which nobody in Transylvito except Don cares about? Gobwin Knob does not want to destroy its neighbors -- they clearly say that they would prefer alliance to conquest.

So yeah it was a failure, but only barely. Theres seven points above which all unluckily fell in GKs favour. If just one of those points had fallen in favour of RCCII, then Don would be one of the most popular guys around.

Yes, he would... but it would be entirely undeserved. It was not Don's protege that tipped the scales, it was Charlie -- the only reason Don would look good is because Charlie wants to stay hidden. Charlie paid Jillian so that she could hire a Turnamancer, Charlie got her to Spacerock in secret and Charlie implemented the time warp. Jillian merely acted as his instrument and was a fatally flawed one at that. She took Charlie's no-lose scenario and turned it into one where Gobwin Knob has a chance -- a small one, but enough for the Perfect Warlord. Committing resources to Jillian is a mistake; Charlie has realized that, but Don still has not.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby Fannin » Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:44 am

They may find Jetstone croaked this turn anyways because Jillian is a bit of a nut-job. It would be a shock since Tramennis has been built up as a worthy foe for Parson, but it is a very real possibility.

It appears that Don has developed somewhat of a blindspot to royalty. In the past we are told he only cared about results but from http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-06-16.jpg he is more concerned with petty digs at Caesar then then fact that Jillian and Tramennis ignored the greater threat in not finishing off Wanda. Given the investment they've made it might have been a good idea to send Vinnie with a joint command or an advisory role to make sure the job gets done, I think the old Don would have done so but the current Don defers to her judgement.

The situation played out almost perfectly except it looks like due to Jillian's flaws (the unwillingness to take out Wanda and the unwillingness to return) GK will come out of this essentially unchanged (loss of Ansom and ground forces countered by the gain of Ossomer and the gain of significant parts of Jetstone's infantry with Wanda intact) with a significantly weakened Jetstone. A more cynical Don placing Vinnie with the strike force since he is already a known opponent of GK would not have made Transylvito more of a target but would have given Don a advisor to a rash and impulsive ruler like Jillian.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby cheeseaholic » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:34 am

Don's never been that great of a leader. The first time we ever saw him, he was talking about how he didn't understand the ambush that Vinny and Jillian were going to do on Stanley. Go to point A with everything, available, attack the enemy when he comes. Granted, due to Parson's deal with Charlie, they didn't have enough troops, but Don didn't know that at the time.

Next we get Caesar's thoughts on Don. Caesar was sent into situations so dangerous and with so little troops that he thought that Don was trying to kill him off. Don's thoughts later don't show any hint of that, but this shows that Don simply wasn't willing to hit with enough force. Shockomancy aside, they didn't have as many troops as they should have. Without Caesar's pounding on the gate (an unusual strategy by the sound of it), Caesar would have died and they would have been yet another city short.

And possibly Don's greatest mistake was the wack from Faq. Yes, Jillian almost turned the tide. Yes...wait not. She didn't, Charlie did. Without Charlie's intervention the outcome of the battle was either going to be an easy victory or a hard victory for GK, depending on what Jullian did. Don took credit of course, thinking that a leader should always attempt to appear to know what is going on. It might be better to ask for ideas if you don't know what's going on sometimes, Don....


Don's main problem is that he seems to be running his side on common sense. Seems like it will work? Then do it! Don has never actually been out in the field, so his instincts there are...poor. Caesar also seems to use common sense, just from a different perspective and with a lot more field experience. Trem might use logic. Parson is the only one who seems to be trying to run things on evidence first and foremost, and he isn't the leader of his side. Charlie is of course an unknown.

Jillian is the worst leader, as she just does things as she feel like. Common sense is no way to run a side, but it's a lot better than what she does. It will be interesting when her backers no longer find her useful....
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby opal » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:44 am

Oberon wrote:This is the entire problem with this debate... No one but me seems to be willing to acknowledge the fact that Don is king right now, with all that implies for his options.


Why is it a problem nobody agrees with you in a debate? Yes, you are the only person arguing all a King's subjects should be yes-men. I think Caesar has a right to tell Don he disagrees. And I think Benny is doing the honorable thing as a friend in disobeying a self-destructive order. Don is succumbing to peer pressure, not thinking about what is best for his side.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby Fannin » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:24 am

opal wrote:
Oberon wrote:This is the entire problem with this debate... No one but me seems to be willing to acknowledge the fact that Don is king right now, with all that implies for his options.


Why is it a problem nobody agrees with you in a debate? Yes, you are the only person arguing all a King's subjects should be yes-men. I think Caesar has a right to tell Don he disagrees. And I think Benny is doing the honorable thing as a friend in disobeying a self-destructive order. Don is succumbing to peer pressure, not thinking about what is best for his side.


I think we may be missing an important point, who knows if Don is trying to perserve his side? He may be pulling a Bea in that he is now willing to condemn his side to destruction if it eliminates the threat of the decrypted. He keeps claiming Caesar doesn't understand, maybe he sees the threat is great enough that the survival of any one side is of less importance then removing the issue of GK.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby cheeseaholic » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:31 am

I just think he doesn't like people giving him advice. Not only does he think bad thoughts about Caesar for that, but he actually sent off all the royal courtiers to die or turn when he took the throne.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby opal » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:34 am

Fannin wrote:I think we may be missing an important point, who knows if Don is trying to perserve his side? He may be pulling a Bea in that he is now willing to condemn his side to destruction if it eliminates the threat of the decrypted. He keeps claiming Caesar doesn't understand, maybe he sees the threat is great enough that the survival of any one side is of less importance then removing the issue of GK.


Then why is he acting indirectly through Faq? Translyvito hasn't sent any of there own units into this fight.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby Fannin » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:40 am

opal wrote:Then why is he acting indirectly through Faq? Translyvito hasn't sent any of there own units into this fight.


Possibly because he knows most of his units don't buy into the royalist cause, leaving his cities undefended might have sparked an immediate rebellion if as has been speculated loyalty/duty are to the side not the ruler. The current losing war against Carpool has already set up the current situation and they have not commited any forces, if he made it worse by explicitly drawing forces needed for defense away into the Jetstone fight it might have made things clear that he was willing to destroy the side for this cause and set up a coup from his court.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby gazes_also » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:11 pm

cheeseaholic wrote:
Jillian is the worst leader, as she just does things as she feel like. Common sense is no way to run a side, but it's a lot better than what she does. It will be interesting when her backers no longer find her useful....


Let's see... she's captured Ansom, who was Charlie's main leverage on her, and secured a big enough treasury to support her whole side independently for multiple turns, probably longer than TV or JS can.

She can pretty much tell her backers to go boop themselves if she wishes.
(Although really ticking off Charlie seems like a bad idea.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:32 pm

GaryThunder wrote:
Not twoll, clearly. :D But what do you suggest? We've got two heirs popping right now. Have either been referred to as a warlord, ever? Are you suggesting that you have to be a warlord to be an overlord or king? If you are, I don't think there is any backing for that theory. Is it fuzzy? You bet.


Every single heir or potential heir we've seen with their unit type identified (Stanley, Caesar, Ansom, Ossomer, Tramennis, Jillian, Sammy) has been a warlord. The burden of proof would seem to be on those who claim that being a warlord isn't necessary.


If every heir pop as a warlord by deafault, could they theoricaly benifit from the occasionnally-pop-a-caster-instead rule?

And if that, since a new side is likelier to pop caster, could it mean Jillian's heir could be a caster of some sort? (just to piss her off: some kind of philosopher prince)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby Lamech » Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:03 pm

So anyway, now there's this thing going on in Jetstone. It looks like Jetstone "aint gonna last nine turns", and they've been taking all the knocks from GK since Unaroyal disbanded. If and when Jetstone go down, who's next to take the hits? Faq? Jittari? TV? As far as we can piece together, they are the three closest sides. Faq wouldn't even be there if not for Don, and that would leave them with a 50/50 chance of taking a massive GK load, in the face.

Looks like Jillian is about to eat it actually. And I'm guessing the non-royals and Haggar have enough brainpower to attempt to get an alliance (or at least get terms) and I bet Parson will accept an alliance with less then perfect terms. And after Jillian pops like a pinata, Jetstone will take it for the reasons they are already taking it.

So yeah, they are stretched to the limits fending off Carpool, but at least that all they have to worry about, so long as they keep propping up GK's enemies until one of them actually wins.

Of course, this all falls apart when you point out what a nut-job Jillian is, but its all he had to work with... It was a solid plan.
It would be a solid plan if Don would accept defeat and ask GK to bail them out. It didn't work. Its over he lost. Now accept the fact that you need to make a deal with the devil to not die to carpool. And he should have kept a tighter leash on Jillian. See that thinkamancer? She can put a suggestion on Jillian.
I think its a matter of perspective. It's easy to cry foul when Jillian quit the field early (and yeah, I agree that was pretty naughty of her), but remember that if not for some pretty exceptional circumstances then things would be very very different right now.
Agree with this. Disagree with what the different result would be. If Charlie didn't provide FAQ super spell, giants, and a turnamancer, Jillian and her airforce would have been splattered by GK on their way to the tower.
If Jillian didn't have spanky feelings for Wanda, she would have finished the job.
Her chief warlord thought that the GK forces would have crushed them. And he decided that with his magic earmuffs, so we know he actually knew what he was talking about. She might have done some damage. Or it might have ended poorly and GK gotten even stronger. Worse case senario is that Jillian is captured and GK blackmails another FAQ unit into moving Wanda down to the garrison. From their the falling exploit can procede without a risk of Wanda croaking. I think fleeing was the correct desision for her side, the RCCII, and Translovito.
If Jillian had loved Wanda more than Ansom, she'd have captured her, and left.
She might have turned Wanda. Or she might have failed and then gotten herself splattered by the GK airforce. And remember what she wanted to do with her brand new Wanda? Crush Jetstone.
If Wanda had captured Tramennis (or anyone else) instead of Ossomer, then Ossomer would still be CWL and would have blasted GK out of the sky, exploit or no.
First the Parley does seem to be SOP. Even if he didn't wait for the parley its not like shooting down GK would have been quick. They still would have had the time they needed to move and drop. And Parson had enough time to plan because the Jetstone forces needed to return to the city. Nor would have Ossomer reacted quite as well as Tram. One slip up at that point and your easily looking at a wipe.
If it turned out that AcidPoo couldn't melt the top of the Atrium, then no exploit.
If Wanda failed her falling roll and croaked on impact, GK loses.
True, but on the first one there I question your logic. There are a lot of things that if GK was missing they would lose. How is that luck?
If Antium hadn't taken a shaft from behind by his own men, then Wanda would be KIA.
Doubt it. There were two casters, at least one of which is a good melee fighter. And a dwagon. Remember the last time a warlord had a caster cornered like this? Sizemore splattered the warlord.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby GaryThunder » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:02 pm

Jillian is just not a good investment. She won't follow any plan, and she constantly gets her objectives confused, to the point where they all suffer for it. Don's decision to bolster Faq is a good idea from a tactical standpoint, meat-shield wise, but Jillian's presence makes it a bad idea.

Case in point, the last text update. Jillian's objective is to bring Ansom around, right? Except, oops, she forgot all about that and started casually slaughtering Decrypted and capturing troops for her other objective of bolstering Faq's army. Great, except now she's pissed off Ansom pretty severely, ruining any shot she might have of bringing him around without magic, which she doesn't even know works.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby drachefly » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:08 pm

Sizemore did not splat the warlord. He was leading two heavy metal golems, who splatted the warlord.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby GaryThunder » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:25 pm

And Sizemore didn't have an Arkentool. The role of Sizemore's golem could have easily been filled by Wanda's dwagon, if Antium hadn't gotten thwart'd.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby Konaa » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:39 pm

Jillian isn't a terrible leader- just a terrible ally.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby mortissimus » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:38 pm

teratorn wrote:I'm surprised Parson would allow Ansom to risk so many of GK's archons in his decapitation strike. They offer telecommunication, they allow for dwagon taming, too useful to risk losing most of them.


Parson was a stationary warlord when Chief Warlord Ansom decided to take the archon's with him. Besides, GK rests on Wanda, so megastack of DOOM is the right strategy, and the stronger and more versatile the better. Even if it puts almost all eggs in one basket.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby Althernai » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:22 pm

gazes_also wrote:Let's see... she's captured Ansom, who was Charlie's main leverage on her, and secured a big enough treasury to support her whole side independently for multiple turns, probably longer than TV or JS can.

She can pretty much tell her backers to go boop themselves if she wishes.

That would be true... except that she captured Ansom from Gobwin Knob and her newfound wealth comes from sacking the cities of Gobwin Knob which leads to Stanley and Parson agreeing that wiping out FAQ should be the next step. If Gobwin Knob wins the current battle, FAQ will need all the help it can get.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby the_tick_rules » Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:24 pm

Yeah she has multiple turns of revenue because her side is tiny. She burns all her bridges she can see if she really can take it with her. Not that she isn't seeming to be burning them anyway but that's Jillian.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby Oberon » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:43 am

Smoker wrote:I thought it [commander] was the name given to a unit that had the ability to lead a stack, regardless of the unit (not) having the leadership special. Casters can lead stacks and are therefore commanders, even though they do not grant a leadership bonus. (I am aware that Casters do give -a- bonus to some unit types, but I believe this is seperate to leadership.)
I think you're right.
Smoker wrote:I know many people here dont agree, but I believe there was a lot of logic in propping up Jillian, and the only problem in TV is the middle management's ignorance and/or arrogance on the issue.
I agree here also. I do wonder why Don hasn't been more forthcoming or explanatory with his warlords and caster corps. This may be because he doesn't expect them to understand even with his explanations, or that he is used to being obeyed without the need for explanations. TV is modeled after vampire mobsters, after all. When the mob boss or the head vampire gives an order, he's not typically interested in hearing that the person ordered wants to consult with someone else first...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby Oberon » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:54 am

opal wrote:
Oberon wrote:This is the entire problem with this debate... No one but me seems to be willing to acknowledge the fact that Don is king right now, with all that implies for his options.

Why is it a problem nobody agrees with you in a debate?
That is never a problem. What is a problem is the willful ignoring of facts. Don is the king, he gives the orders. If his units do not follow those orders, they disband. That is how things have been described to work.
opal wrote:Yes, you are the only person arguing all a King's subjects should be yes-men.
Yeah, except that I've never said that at all. Go build some more straw men, they are fun to play with. Erf leaders can have advisers. They can accept criticism, input, feedback. But the bottom line is that the management of the side is on their shoulders. You can dislike Don for whatever reason: He doesn't share enough of his plans with his leadership cadre; he supports the rather chaotic Jillian; he reversed his position on royalty, a position which was hard earned through the lessons of his two former heirs; he has placed TV in a position where shmuckers are scarce, and yet still wants to loan the entire remaining treasury to Jetstone. Yeah, there are plenty of reasons to call Don a poor leader. But none of them bother to acknowledge that no matter how little a person might think of his management capabilities, Don is still the man in charge.
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