Book 2 – Page 56

[GaryThunder]

Yes, Oberon, but Don's failure to talk things out with his leadership as opposed to ruling directly over them by fiat, even if vindicated by precedent, is still a fatal error under the circumstances. Don's a smooth talker, I don't doubt he could have brought Caesar and the others around if he had been forthcoming from the beginning. But he carried on doing things the way he always had, which he simply couldn't afford to do.

[oslecamo2_temp]

This is the entire problem with this debate... No one but me seems to be willing to acknowledge the fact that Don is king right now, with all that implies for his options.

Why is it a problem nobody agrees with you in a debate?

That is never a problem. What is a problem is the willful ignoring of facts. Don is the king, he gives the orders. If his units do not follow those orders, they disband. That is how things have been described to work.

"Described" being the key word here. But how do things actually work from what we saw?
-The comic begins with Wanda flatlly refusing a direct order from Stanley.
-We hear of multiple instances of subordinates betraying their superiors, wich should be impossibe if units autodisband if they disobey orders.
-Jillian had a long grinding conflict with her father, who wanted her to become a lady of arts, while she refused and went to stab things in the face.
-Queen Bea's chief warlord refuses to suicide charge her decrypted daughter untill the queen gives her word that she'll run to safety.
-Fabulous Trems overrides his father direct orders right in front of everyone (Don't shoot everything down! Kill just the yellows! )

So far we have multiple instances of units not following orders and living to tell the tale, a good chunk of them from actual chief Warlords.

This is, what's exactly the diference between Caesar now and Trems a few pages ago? "Father, you will leave the city if I have to have you bound and carried". He's basically screaming "Screw your orders, I'm doing what I think it's best for our side!"

Meanwhile, we have zero instances of units disbanding for refusing to follow orders! As far as we know, it's just a boogey man story to try to scare subordinates into not rebelling against their rulers!

[Smoker]

As far as I understand, you can only disobey a direct order if you are honestly acting in the best interest of your side. - This is your duty stat coming into play.

If you are not acting in the best interest of your side, you can either turn, or you autodisband - this means that anyone who is still a unit of a particular side, whatever their feelings, has not yet intentionally acted against it.

You can unintentionally act against your side: Parson did it by not supervising the city properly, and Wanda did it by bringing Stanley on when she expected him to fall. Note the moment she deliberately started acting against Faq, she turned.

EDIT: I should also add the other method of disbanding is when your Ruler doesn't want you around anymore, so s/he intentionally disbands you. This is where Caesar is at right now: He hasn't intentionally damaged the side, even though his inner thoughts might not be entirely pure, so he hasn't auto-disbanded.

Although, correct, we have not seen anyone auto-disband, so it might well be a boogey-man story, but so far the logic holds, and I think we can trust what we've been told on the topic.

Anyway, back to Don.

I think the key here, is that Don wasn't planning Kingworld. He just wanted a side to get between him and GK. Yeah Kingworld was Charlie's idea, and would have been awesome if there'd been some follow through by any one of a number of people, but that wasn't the plan from the start. All Don was doing was setting aside a chunk of his money to put against GK through someone else. I dare say that were it not for Faq, he would be fighting GK anyway, so that money is spent against them either way. So he loses three cities, but Faq gains three, and they are fighting GK pretty much on TV's behalf.

The fact that Jillian almost ended GK's advantage but didnt', doesnt stop the fact that putting someone between you and the bad guy is a great idea.

The problem is that Jillian is all he had to work with, but what were his options?

In fact:

Looks like Jillian is about to eat it actually.

Is exactly the point. If it wasn't Jillian who was next in the firing line, it would be TV. If you accept that as a reasonable suggestion, then Don's investment in Faq has been beneficial. Note I didn't say "worth it", but I happen to think that also.

It would be a solid plan if Don would accept defeat and ask GK to bail them out. It didn't work. Its over he lost. Now accept the fact that you need to make a deal with the devil to not die to carpool. And he should have kept a tighter leash on Jillian. See that thinkamancer? She can put a suggestion on Jillian.

This is all good, but an alliance with GK is something they can consider now, or if/when Jetstone falls and their safety buffer is growing thin. Carpool are not knocking on their door yet, and if TV's allies were lucky enough to end the GK threat, then Faq can turn its attention to protecting TV for a few turns until they are back on their feet again.

A suggestion would have been a great idea.

I think its a matter of perspective. It's easy to cry foul when Jillian quit the field early (and yeah, I agree that was pretty naughty of her), but remember that if not for some pretty exceptional circumstances then things would be very very different right now.

Agree with this. Disagree with what the different result would be. If Charlie didn't provide FAQ super spell, giants, and a turnamancer, Jillian and her airforce would have been splattered by GK on their way to the tower.

Hard to say, Jillian could have charged all her Mega's at Wanda while the tower tried to cover them... I figure if she can nab Ansom from a massive stack then she could do the same to Wanda - squash/capture her right off the back of her Dwagon, then squeeze her into a corpse. There's not much to say how probable that is, but I dont think its impossible that they could have at least croaked Wanda.

But anyway, that's getting into speculation territory, but all I'm saying is that the plan only went as far as "Put up someone between them and us" and so far its worked really well.

Of course Don might ruin it all in the next update, saying its not about war, its about Royalty.. but so far, I consider the above to be a pretty reasonable POV.

[GaryThunder]

The only evidence we have indicating any sort of autodisband functionality is Parson's statement "Disobedience may cause the unit to disband." This may be reserved for egregious acts of disobedience, clearly against the ruling authority, where every instance of disobedience we've seen has been reasoned and at least partially in line with the best interests of the side, if not the whims of the Ruler.

Smoker makes a good point...if not for Kingworld, Don's investment would have been a total failure. Ossomer estimated that Wanda's group could have fought directly through Jillian's forces and still been able to destroy Spacerock's garrison, if not capture it. This is after Jillian's been riding on the purse-strings of both Charlie and Don to build up her disproportionately huge fleet of air units. (Ossomer may also have failed to calculate Decryption into his battle estimates - if Wanda were able to catch and Decrypt the falling enemy units, including the very-high-leadership Jillian, that may have allowed capture of the garrison once more.) Don's investment was only saved from being utter ruination by something he didn't ever know about,

[oslecamo2_temp]

The fact that Jillian almost ended GK's advantage but didnt', doesnt stop the fact that putting someone between you and the bad guy is a great idea.

The problem is that Jillian is all he had to work with, but what were his options?

Perhaps simply make his own troops fight? Caesar mentions how taking FAQ cities would mean several extra warlords, not to mention their production capacity.

Is exactly the point. If it wasn't Jillian who was next in the firing line, it would be TV. If you accept that as a reasonable suggestion, then Don's investment in Faq has been beneficial. Note I didn't say "worth it", but I happen to think that also.

The problem it's that TV is bankrupting themselves to finance Jillian. Congratulations, now you don't need to worry about GK destroying you, because soon you'll be unable to pay for your forces upkeep.

This is all good, but an alliance with GK is something they can consider now, or if/when Jetstone falls and their safety buffer is growing thin. Carpool are not knocking on their door yet, and if TV's allies were lucky enough to end the GK threat, then Faq can turn its attention to protecting TV for a few turns until they are back on their feet again.

That would imply that "There's no problem I can't solve by stabbing it " Jillian doesn't decide it's easier to put bankrupt TV out of their misery than paying back her debt.

A suggestion would have been a great idea.

Jillian has been known to be able to snap out of those. Heck, this time she even took measures to warn her chief warlord to watch for it.

Hard to say, Jillian could have charged all her Mega's at Wanda while the tower tried to cover them... I figure if she can nab Ansom from a massive stack then she could do the same to Wanda - squash/capture her right off the back of her Dwagon, then squeeze her into a corpse. There's not much to say how probable that is, but I dont think its impossible that they could have at least croaked Wanda.

She nabbed Ansom when he was gravely wounded and left with just a rag tag group of infantry and a couple of warlords as bodyguards after the rockers suicide charge. Wanda on the other hand has her own personal dwagon fleet, Jack and the archons providing foolmancy backup, and at least a dozen elite warlords. Even Jillian's chief warlord agreed it could only end as a slaughter for their own side, so chances are that at best Jillian would be left stabbing at illusions before becoming another of Wanda's puppets.

But anyway, that's getting into speculation territory, but all I'm saying is that the plan only went as far as "Put up someone between them and us" and so far its worked really well.

Really well?
-Almost bankrupt.
-Several warlords and cities lost due to resource funneling to Jillian.
-Jillian has just put herself on Charlie's bad side. Do you really want to put yourself on Charlie's bad side?

Really, TV could been fighting this with their own units, and it would be much more profitable. It would be their own forces leveling up, for them the spoils of war, and don't have to trust Miss crazy berseker queen to keep her side of the bargain.

[Mrtyuh]

I would like to point out a couple of things people seem to be missing. Firstly, although I do think Don's support of Jillian is a mistake, from his point of view, she has already done one thing which he probably considers worth the investment. She crippled Jitterati. Transylvito is down 3 cities, but one of those, White Castle, was captured by Jitterati, not Carpool. If not for Faq, Transylvito would be facing a two-front war now, since Jitterati would probably still be trying to take advantage of Transylvito's disintergration, thereby accelerating it. We, the readers, know the entire enterprise was conceived by Charlie, but Don does not. From his point of view, Jillian earned every Schmuker that turn.

Secondly, Don is not conducting business the same way as always. Caesar commented that he used to have long talks with Don and considered himself lucky to work for such a guy. Now, Don doesn't talk to him at all. That indicates that Don has completely changed his management style. Imagine, before the Battle of the Pass, if, instead of asking Vinny to explain the plan to him, Don had just said "No!" Either management style can work, but abruptly changing from a cooperative style to a dictorial style will cause resentment in the middle management. The cooperative style tends to foster a sense of ownership, so, while Transylvito's Warlords had no more power then than now, they may have felt that Transylvito belonged as much to them as to Don. To put it in ErfWorld terms, they developed a high Loyalty and Duty to their side. Now that Don's actions are actively hurting their side, their Loyalty and Duty to Transylvito may be higher than their Loyalty and Duty to Don.

[drachefly]

And Sizemore didn't have an Arkentool. The role of Sizemore's golem could have easily been filled by Wanda's dwagon, if Antium hadn't gotten thwart'd.

Maybe so, though he had surprise on his side, which would have helped especially on the dwagon. I was specifically disputing the claim that

There were two casters, at least one of which is a good melee fighter.

We've seen Wanda make one melee attack. It was effective, but it was also against the arkenpliers, to which she is attuned. She was mainly trying to distract Ansom so someone else could take him down. We don't really know what she could do against a normal sword.

And I'm fairly confident that you weren't talking about Jack.


As for Don... I'm not going to try to explain why "He's the boss" is not sufficient, if all that has gone before did not succeed.

[cheeseaholic]

Everyone keeps talking about Duty and Loyalty as if every unit had those stats maxed out. Parson may have those stats maxed from the summoning spell (or else be under the effects as though he did), but nobody else has any reason to have those stats maxed. It seems logical that there's a roll to see if an order can be disobeyed and if the unit will be disbanded for it.

Somehow I don't think Don's units have high Duty and Loyalty to him at the moment. So either that's a low chance at an auto-disband, or a low chance for a disband period. And a low chance at being forced to follow orders.

Would be interesting if in a bloody coup a warlord or two made their Loyalty check and a fight broke out.

[Swodaems]

There were two casters, at least one of which is a good melee fighter.

We've seen Wanda make one melee attack. It was effective, but it was also against the arkenpliers, to which she is attuned. She was mainly trying to distract Ansom so someone else could take him down. We don't really know what she could do against a normal sword.

You're forgetting Ossomer's capture. When Ossomer and Ansom were fighting, she used the pliers to grab Ossomer's sword, giving Ansom an opening.

Also, about the warlords not auto-disbanding for disobeying Don, think about exactly what they have said they are doing. They aren't saying they're willing to actually go into Don's study and fight him. Taking their statements literally, they're saying that they will go in there, tell Don they have a problem with him, and give him the choice to disband them. I think their intentions have precluded the auto part of the auto disband for disloyalty.

[drachefly]

Okay, that's interesting. Yes, Wanda does seem to have at least one specialized melee move available that would be very appropriate to this situation.

[the_tick_rules]

She's a level 8 so she could probably handle a chump. But I'm betting she's far from being the front-line equivalent of a level 8 warlord so she's not going to be a prefered choice for direct combat.

[drachefly]

Well, yeah. But it appears that she is capable of delaying a high level warlord for a few seconds, which makes her a powerful melee support unit.

[Lamech]

Wanda certainly seems a good melee unit. Holding off Ossomer and Ansom, maybe she isn't quite up to their levels, but no way can we say it was a guarentee that one armed Adam would have croaked her before the dwagon splattered him. And don't forget her shield that deflects archon blasts.

Really well?
-Almost bankrupt.
-Several warlords and cities lost due to resource funneling to Jillian.
-Jillian has just put herself on Charlie's bad side. Do you really want to put yourself on Charlie's bad side?

Really, TV could been fighting this with their own units, and it would be much more profitable. It would be their own forces leveling up, for them the spoils of war, and don't have to trust Miss crazy berseker queen to keep her side of the bargain.

I have to agree (mostly) with smoker, if Don's plan was to strike at GK with out angering GK he has done a great job. And all that stuff is bad, but what if Parson was saying "TV's main force is out of the capital. Lets go end their whole side." or "Better hunt down their chief warlord and hit a few cities. Then carpool won't have any trouble mopping them up."?

This is all good, but an alliance with GK is something they can consider now, or if/when Jetstone falls and their safety buffer is growing thin. Carpool are not knocking on their door yet, and if TV's allies were lucky enough to end the GK threat, then Faq can turn its attention to protecting TV for a few turns until they are back on their feet again.

True, I suppose its not quite time to accpet defeat. Still I don't think Don will go for it.

[DoctorJest]

From the wiki:

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Duty
Duty is one of applications of Natural Thinkamancy. All units are subject to Natural Thinkamancies: Obedience, Loyalty, Duty, and others.Erf-b1-p084a Natural thinkamancy doesn't compel Units to do things they don't want to do, or forbid them from doing things they do want to do. Rather, it influences their desires, making them want to do certain things.
Duty affects Commanders only, which means it affects Warlords, Casters, and possibly Chiefs of Natural Allies. It has a higher affect on Warlords, highest on Chief Warlord. It makes them want to use their own initiative in the service of the Ruler. It also makes them reluctant to withhold information, unless they are convinced that it is in their Ruler's best interests for them to do so. For example, Parson withholds from Stanley his strong suspicions that Charlie is responsible for their failure to locate any Gobwins, because he's sure Stanley would react inappropriately if he knew that Charlie was up to something. And it makes them very reluctant to conspire against the Ruler.
Duty can backfire when an Unit truly believes their Ruler is too incompetent to make decisions, and decides to overrule them. Maggie demonstrated this by giving Stanley a suggestion, Thinkamancer style.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Loyalty
Loyalty is one of applications of Natural Thinkamancy. All units are subject to Natural Thinkamancies: Obedience, Loyalty, Duty, and others.Erf-b1-p084a
Loyalty is an unknowable unit stat, affecting how likely a unit is to defect or double-deal when possible. Thinkamancy spells can modify Loyalty.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Obedience
Obedience is one of applications of Natural Thinkamancy. All units are subject to Natural Thinkamancies: Obedience, Loyalty, Duty, and others.Erf-b1-p084a
Obedience means that units are compelled to obey orders. However, depending on the unit's relative Loyalty or intelligence, they may voice their disagreement or outright disobey the orders if they believe the order goes against higher orders or their Ruler's interestsErf-b1-p005. Disobedience may cause the unit to disband, but a clever and resourceful unit like Wanda can carry out a lot of stuff under the table.
Orders enforced by Obedience are not limited to ones involving strategy and combat. In fact, nearly any command comes under its purview: A superior can order a unit to laugh, cry, slap themselves, strip naked, or anything else they can imagine. The idea that abusing an underling's obedience might be wrong is an alien concept to the people of Erfworld. summer-updates-044

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So Duty is the sense a unit has of doing what is Right for The Side, Loyalty is How Likely They Are To Defect, and Obedience is how faithfully they follow orders. People are confounding these three stats as one thing in this discussion.

It seems like the TV Warlords have high Duty and Loyalty (want to do what's right for the side, don't seem likely to turn), but low Obedience because they believe Don is making bad decisions for the side (and thus are disobeying his orders out of Duty).

I'd imagine then that the autodisband would only threaten units that disobey because of low loyalty but without regard to duty.

[Housellama]

That analysis fits very well. I think that, not despite but in fact BECAUSE of his opinions, Caesar has shown a rather high amount of Loyalty to TV, and is compelled by a very strong sense of Duty. His Obedience to Don is low, but only because he believes that Don isn't working in the best interest of TV.

[mortissimus]

Don is the king, he gives the orders. If his units do not follow those orders, they disband. That is how things have been described to work.

"Described" being the key word here. But how do things actually work from what we saw?
-The comic begins with Wanda flatlly refusing a direct order from Stanley.
-We hear of multiple instances of subordinates betraying their superiors, wich should be impossibe if units autodisband if they disobey orders.
-Jillian had a long grinding conflict with her father, who wanted her to become a lady of arts, while she refused and went to stab things in the face.
-Queen Bea's chief warlord refuses to suicide charge her decrypted daughter untill the queen gives her word that she'll run to safety.
-Fabulous Trems overrides his father direct orders right in front of everyone (Don't shoot everything down! Kill just the yellows! )

So far we have multiple instances of units not following orders and living to tell the tale, a good chunk of them from actual chief Warlords.

This is, what's exactly the diference between Caesar now and Trems a few pages ago? "Father, you will leave the city if I have to have you bound and carried". He's basically screaming "Screw your orders, I'm doing what I think it's best for our side!"

Meanwhile, we have zero instances of units disbanding for refusing to follow orders! As far as we know, it's just a boogey man story to try to scare subordinates into not rebelling against their rulers!

Adding to the list we know that heirs can try to coup, though we have only speculations as to the mechanics of how that happens. I for one am hoping this revolt will give us insight into that.

[Chit Rule Railroad]

She nabbed Ansom when he was gravely wounded and left with just a rag tag group of infantry and a couple of warlords as bodyguards after the rockers suicide charge. Wanda on the other hand has her own personal dwagon fleet, Jack and the archons providing foolmancy backup, and at least a dozen elite warlords. Even Jillian's chief warlord agreed it could only end as a slaughter for their own side, so chances are that at best Jillian would be left stabbing at illusions before becoming another of Wanda's puppets.

There's also a huge difference between air-to-ground operations vs. air-to-air operations. With the exception of ranged-attack units and forest units in a wooded hex, air units can choose which ground stacks to engage. In an air battle, the defenders can screen each other.

Duncan and Parson's magic devices both agreed that the dwagons would probably be able to break through Jillian's forces to reach the tower. However, that doesn't mean that the lack of Kingworld would have resulted in Wanda surviving and Jillian's forces croaking:

• Duncan was calculating the outcome of GK and Faq duking it out, whereas GK's plan was more like punching through the air defenses and may not have resulted in the extermination of the Faq forces. For example, consider that most of TV's units survived Stanley's punch-through in the pass. Even if Jillian ended up incapacitated worse than Caesar was in that fight, Jetstone probably would have found a way for Pierce to heal her, out of loyalty to Royalty.
• When Parson asked the bracers about the probability of taking down the tower, he didn't seem to include the retention of Wanda as a surviving GK unit as a condition of the "success" scenario. It's quite plausible that GK's dwagons would have been able to take down the tower even if Wanda were captured or croaked. Parson's bracer calculation may have taken into account that Faq would have been focused on neutralizing Wanda and would not have been willing to take casualties to stop the other dwagons from reaching the tower.
• It's odd that Parson seemed to assume that taking down the tower would take out Slately, who might have hunkered down in the dungeon or stood with the troops in the atrium, or might have survived the fall of the tower. When Sizemore collapsed everything-but-the-dungeon in GK, it didn't seem to cause a lot of casualties, and Parson probably didn't anticipate that Slately might have a jetpack. If Wanda were incapacitated in the attack, continued Jetstone control of the ground could have turned her into a bargaining chip, potentially ending the attack even if GK had gained a tactical advantage.

Without Kingworld, the battle could have easily ended with the outcome: Jetstone eliminated, but Wanda and her Arkenplier Army turned to Faq - especially considering Vanna would have had full juice. That would have been consistent with Parson's "success" outcome, so it could even have been the most likely outcome.

[Oberon]

But anyway, that's getting into speculation territory, but all I'm saying is that the plan only went as far as "Put up someone between them and us" and so far its worked really well.

Really well?
-Almost bankrupt.
-Several warlords and cities lost due to resource funneling to Jillian.
-Jillian has just put herself on Charlie's bad side. Do you really want to put yourself on Charlie's bad side?

Really, TV could been fighting this with their own units, and it would be much more profitable. It would be their own forces leveling up, for them the spoils of war, and don't have to trust Miss crazy berseker queen to keep her side of the bargain.

You're not altogether wrong, but I'll add that your list of bullet points would quite probably have still been TVs situation had Don decided to fund his own troop creation and attacked GK directly. Except that in this case there would be no *ptui* Kingworld, as Charlie wasn't being hired by royals. Your last bullet point becomes moot, even though it was moot from a TV point of view in any case. Without KW, no freezing Wanda in place where she could be attacked, it'd have to have been a TV assault of warlords and bats (or whatever else TV could bring to bear) against Wanda. If TV and Jetstone are allied (and I believe they are both members of the RCCII) they'd be able to coordinate the attack. They might even have megalos, as that unit type might come with the FAQ capitol and other 2 cities.

Would they win? Who can guess? But would GK be gunning for TV after that fight? You bet'cha. Tram believed that GK could still beat the RCCII even after losing Wanda and the GK expeditionary force. So while this is all highly speculative, it appears as though Don has accomplished one thing very well: He has kept TV off of the GK radar. If it comes down to it, he can ally with GK instead of having an angered GK interested in ending him.

[cheeseaholic]

If avoiding having GK know about TV's opposition of GK was Don's goal, then he was a fool. GK has decryption, and they will easily find out about TV's role in the war. Don has known about this since at least Bea.

They may or may not come after them for it, but they'll know that they are an enemy. Hopefully for TV GK will offer surrender terms to them like they did for Jetstone.

[dirocyn]

The Transylvito insurrection seems much more in line with the Egyptian one--we'll all stand up and tell him he's wrong, he won't want to kill us all--though it does risk becoming a Libya situation. Honestly, though, Don King does not seem the type to disband his friends and allies so casually. He's way too sentimental for that. B'sides, there are enough of these warlords (and his Moneymancer) who are standing up to him--if he starts disbanding units, he's going to cripple his side. And that's assuming nobody decides to knife him first.

Anyhow, Don's strategy of buying a buffer zone is fundamentally sound. When you're facing an enemy that kills your front line and turns it into their own front line, which it uses to attack your second line--that's a truly horrifying enemy, and you're not going to fight it without taking heavy losses. And when your units die, they're worse than dead. They're on the other side, attacking and killing the troops they were buds with two seconds ago. So what Don's doing is trying to protect his people by buying troops he doesn't care about. Same deal with Jetstone--if he makes this loan, Jetstone is still there next turn. Otherwise, the whole side ends now, and it's not a useful buffer anymore. Not only that, but if Jetstone falls now, Wanda can go city-to-city at her leisure and execute-decrypt Jetstone's entire military. Which means GK gets to add all of Jetstone's production with none of it's unit upkeep. So $40,000 does more than keep a meat shield for a couple turns, it keeps a potent force out of GK's clutches. Is it worth it? Don thinks yes, and I'm not sure he's wrong.

Of course, the real question is, can Don convince Caesar to sit down and shut up?

Spoiler: show

Bunny: "May I make a suggestion?"