Book 2 – Text Updates 045

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby Jinren » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:11 pm

joosy wrote:Why hasn't Marie returned to Faq now that Jillian has revived it?


As a barbarian, she's no longer a Faq unit. Unless Jillian specifically requests her services (would Jillian even remember, much less care about, Marie?), she doesn't have an "official" connection to the side any more. And at the moment, she'd also be breaking the taboo on going through a portal you don't own (a minor detail, in the circumstances).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby No one in particular » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:31 pm

Eh... that's kind of dodgy evidence, I think. I mean, it's coming from an invader, in the middle of an attack, who's never seen Faq before. In a case like that, it's entirely possible that Marie saw Stanley coming and how many dwagons he started out with, told Banhammer about it, and he hired a bunch of casters from the MK to help defend his side. Then, either Marie didn't see how many dwagons Stanley would pick up along the way or Banhammer just couldn't afford any more casters, and they made their stand. When their contract (and employer) expired, the hired casters ran back to the MK.

If you've got anything else though, I'm willing to hear it out. I just take Stanley's description of Faq with a grain of salt.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby wrecan » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:11 pm

No one in particular wrote:What other casters have been mentioned? There was Marie the predictamancer, Jack the foolamancer, and Wanda the croakamancer... and well, we've met all of them.

There seem to be five casters in Banhammer's little caster circle (frame 3), and only Wanda and Jack are recognizable. We know they also had Marie. Now some of those could have been warlords, but based on Jillian's description of Banhammer's low regard for warlords and soldiers, it seems doubtful any warlords would be in Banhammer's inner circle. So that seems like six casters at a minimum.

Stanley also mentions that Faq had a whole lot of casters. Keep in mind that Stanley at one point had five casters (Maggie, Misty, Jack, Wanda, and Sizemore). I imagine he would think "a whole lot" is more than that, particularly since Jetstone has four (Cubbins, Ace, Pierce, Lloyd), and nobody has mentioned that Jetstone has a "lot of casters".

What's more remarkable is that Faq apparently popped all these casters itself. Stanly had five, but Wanda and Jack were obtained through conquest. According to the Wiki, casters cannot be popped intentionally. Sometimes you get one when you try to pop a warlord. I can't imagine Banhammer wanting to pop a warlord for any reason other than to get a caster. So, unless he had a way to ensure that he got a caster rather than a warlord, Banhammer was popping lots of expensive warlords and then doing nothing with them.

I suspect he did have a way to ensure he popped a caster, or at least to turn the odds to his favor. Maybe he had an appropriate caster -- I would posit a Date-a-Mancer or a Signamancer. Or he had an artifact or even an Arkentool.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby allaces14400 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:13 pm

According to the Wiki, casters cannot be popped intentionally. Sometimes you get one when you try to pop a warlord. I can't imagine Banhammer wanting to pop a warlord for any reason other than to get a caster. So, unless he had a way to ensure that he got a caster rather than a warlord, Banhammer was popping lots of expensive warlords and then doing nothing with them.


true. but then, there's tidbits like this:

http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png

In the final summer update, the sixth paragraph down indicates that "Titans read the Ruler's heart, and their Fate. Jillian's heart was armed for battle. Surely the Titans sent her what she needed."

Couldn't the same be said for Banhammer? Divine intervention would throw the rules as we know them to hell. Stands to reason that the bubble kingdom would be more likely to pop casters, simply because that's what the acting ruler desired for his kingdom. Who needs artifacts to obtain a given end, when the titans themselves are pulling strings?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby wrecan » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:13 pm

allaces14400 wrote:In the final summer update, the sixth paragraph down indicates that "Titans read the Ruler's heart, and their Fate. Jillian's heart was armed for battle. Surely the Titans sent her what she needed."

That seems like self-justification since it's pretty clear she needed a Turnamancer to go forward with her plan to turn Ansom, and the Titans didn't give her one, forcing her to hire one from the Magic Kingdom. It may be that a Ruler's personality affects how often a warlord rather than a caster pops. Or it may be that whatever let Banhammer as Faq's Ruler pop casters at will is also allowing Jillian as Faq's Ruler pop warlords at will. Perhaps Faq has an artifact within it?

Everyone else seems to get warlords or casters randomly, but the two rulers of Faq have had unusual distribution. Coincidence? Or something deeper?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby teratorn » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:56 pm

wrecan wrote:What's more remarkable is that Faq apparently popped all these casters itself.


Where's your evidence for that? Marie doesn't seem keen in going back to Faq, and Wanda had a pretty low loyalty to her side.

wrecan wrote:Everyone else seems to get warlords or casters randomly, but the two rulers of Faq have had unusual distribution. Coincidence? Or something deeper?


We still don't know if all the casters were popped in Faq. We know Wanda to be a croatan, Jillian's tribe has never been stated.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby wrecan » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:08 pm

teratorn wrote:
wrecan wrote:What's more remarkable is that Faq apparently popped all these casters itself.


Where's your evidence for that? Marie doesn't seem keen in going back to Faq, and Wanda had a pretty low loyalty to her side.

You can get casters three ways. You pop them, you capture them (but Faq doesn't conquer), or you recruit them. Recruiting seems anathema to Faq's need to keep itself secret. So while not conclusive, I think it seems the most reasonable conclusion based on what we currently know.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby JohnATallon » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:21 pm

wrecan wrote:
teratorn wrote:
wrecan wrote:What's more remarkable is that Faq apparently popped all these casters itself.


Where's your evidence for that? Marie doesn't seem keen in going back to Faq, and Wanda had a pretty low loyalty to her side.

You can get casters three ways. You pop them, you capture them (but Faq doesn't conquer), or you recruit them. Recruiting seems anathema to Faq's need to keep itself secret. So while not conclusive, I think it seems the most reasonable conclusion based on what we currently know.


Faq did fight though, Jillian went out on mercenary runs. She may have picked up Wanda and other casters that way.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby teratorn » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:14 pm

wrecan wrote:You can get casters three ways. You pop them, you capture them (but Faq doesn't conquer), or you recruit them. Recruiting seems anathema to Faq's need to keep itself secret. So while not conclusive, I think it seems the most reasonable conclusion based on what we currently know.


Faq wasn't secret, they were continuously hired as mercs so people knew how to contact them. What was a secret was the side's location. In particular, Faq had a portal to the MK, citizens from the MK knew the city existed.

And what makes you think Faq didn't conquer? They didn't add to their kingdom but that doesn't mean they wouldn't go to war for profit. Jillian is the kind of person to raze cities for schmuckers if opportunity arises. Wanda and Marie seem like they had very low loyalty scores, typical of captured units.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby wrecan » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:24 am

Jillian was hired as a mercenary. We don't know if she was public about where she came from. Given that Faq used Foolamancy to avoid detection, it would be odd and counterproductive for someone to run around advertising that Faq was a kingdom that was making extra Schmuckers with mercenaries.

Nor would it make sense for Jillian to pick up casters through her mercenary work. Casters are valuable. Any casters captured would belong to Jillian's employer. I find it doubtful that an employer would be comfortable letting a mercenary have a caster when he knows that mercenary could later be hired by his enemies and the caster would then be fighting him.

I still think it is most likely that Faq popped all of its own casters. YMMV.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby joosy » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:52 am

I speculated before on why Wanda's loyalty to Faq was outshined by her loyalty to Fate (which also served as a convenient excuse for her callous quest for an arkentool). Since Wanda, Jack, and Jillian share the same racial characteristics common to Faq (pupils in their eyes) I believe they were all popped in Faq - ergo I don't believe she was a captured unit.

I theorized that Marie's prediction(s) and possibly Banhammer's philosophies influenced Wanda onto her current path. I suggest that the discussions in the court of Faq, since they were not geared to conquest or physical defense, dealt more with things such as the nature of Love.. and Fate. Magic Kingdomlike discussions, I would surmise. Faq's existence being so dependent on Fate magic as it was, I am sure it wasn't hard for Wanda to adopt the philosophy for her personal goals. She invited Stanley thinking that Fate would deliver the hammer into her hands. Once she realized that her gambit failed and that Faq was going to fall she realized that if she was going to attune to an arkentool then she would need to survive; hence her turning.

I also theorize that the reason she is so callous to human life and/or death is because of her possible role in maintaining Faq's bubble kingdom status. I imagine Banhammer would pop as many Warlords as he could afford to. If they weren't casters, then they would be croaked and Wanda would then uncroak them. They would then be cheap temporary units. And Wanda would die a little inside until she became the witch we know her as today. That could also explain her Masterclass and level status. Of course she could have been popped a sociopath as well. She could have also gained those levels under Stanley by influencing him into his holy war thus giving her lots of units to level up on.

Also one of the underlying themes in Erfworld is the concept of free-will. Parson speculates on this early on and wonders if Overlords/Kings are the only ones with true free will. I suggest that Wanda, in working towards accomplishing her own Fate rather than for the Fate of her side or ruler, is exhibiting a unique form of free-will.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby MarbitChow » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:20 pm

joosy wrote:I also theorize that the reason she is so callous to human life and/or death is because of her possible role in maintaining Faq's bubble kingdom status.

I think you're over-thinking Wanda. Her callousness towards human life is probably an attribute of her being a Croakamancer. She was popped that way.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby ftl » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:28 pm

joosy wrote:Why hasn't Marie returned to Faq now that Jillian has revived it? That maybe just the mechanics of becoming a barbarian caster but it may be that she sees her need in the Magic Kingdom as greater than returning to advise Jillian.


Also, she has no particular loyalty to New FAQ. I believe that rules-wise, it's just a new side that happens to have the same name anyway - Jillian could have called it something different, with no harmful effects. It's not the same Side as Old FAQ.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby teratorn » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:44 pm

ftl wrote:Also, she has no particular loyalty to New FAQ. I believe that rules-wise, it's just a new side that happens to have the same name anyway - Jillian could have called it something different, with no harmful effects. It's not the same Side as Old FAQ.


It's the same tribe, and the heir to the throne. It's true she wanted to call it Ansom and she might have have removed the link to old Faq, but it's not clear from the summer updates.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby allaces14400 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:33 pm

That seems like self-justification since it's pretty clear she needed a Turnamancer to go forward with her plan to turn Ansom, and the Titans didn't give her one, forcing her to hire one from the Magic Kingdom. It may be that a Ruler's personality affects how often a warlord rather than a caster pops. Or it may be that whatever let Banhammer as Faq's Ruler pop casters at will is also allowing Jillian as Faq's Ruler pop warlords at will. Perhaps Faq has an artifact within it?


Or the Titans, or fate itself, if you like, delivered one to her. Vanna wouldn't have been available for hire had it not been for other twists and turns of (the plot) fate. Why pop one when there's another available and the stream of events is pulling her towards you? Makes sense. Further, it makes sense from a writer's perspective. You can't just arbitrarily pop every character you need, it'd be boring as all get out. inserting Vanna into the story earlier and bringing her into the fold makes for better storytelling and reinforces the idea of fate at work. And fate seems to be a prevalent concept in this body of work. Not always tied up in artifacts or pieces of armor, shovels, hammers or pliers. But rather as a mover of pieces behind the scenes, be those pieces people, the aforementioned artifacts, or whole sides.

I'm not saying that Faq didn't have such an artifact. It's a fair bet and an interesting idea to say that you're right. but I can't help but see this developing in a different direction, with a different, more subtle driving force. Plus, it strikes me that Jillian would've known about such a valuable piece and spoken of it beforehand, as well as when she used it as described. Or mentioned it when she rebuilt Faq.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby Sieggy » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:25 pm

Thinkamancer support - what are TGM going to do to provide cover for Parson? They've been warned by Maggie via coded message, they can see what's going on, so what are they going to do? They've had enough notice, and Sizemore has been going nice & slow, so I'd assume they have their people in place. (how many of the people seen in the artwork are in on the plot . . .?)

And I think that Janis and Marie can legally step through the portal, as they are entering a hex under Parson's control. They're not 'porting into unfriendly space, they're entering at his invitation. Given that I very seriously (unless one of the thinkamancers does something thinkamancish for Plot Exposition) doubt that Parson would want to stand there in the middle of Portal Park chatting while dressed like Skeletor's idiot nephew with lots of warlordy things hanging off of him. (the sad thing is that you'll see sadder than the way Parson is dressed now on some of the geeks at medieval faires. Complete with glasses.)

I think if the ladies want to do more than give him a high five and a quick cheer on the way through, they'll need to accompany him. And if they want to ensure his survival, they may need to pitch in, too. Hmmm . . . remember Trem's virtual hippification when talking with Charlie? I wonder if that wasn't a bit of foreshadowing . . .

Besides, we need to find out if Wanda or Jack reacts to either Janis or Marie . . . need more backstory!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby Aquillion » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:07 pm

Jinren wrote:If this couldn't be done, how would FAQ have stayed hidden? (On the other hand, without the MK, how would they have set up mercenary contracts while staying hidden?)
I doubt most people know where every side is. So they were just a side nobody knew about -- their portal? Nobody knew where it went; it was just a portal for a side nobody knew anything about. Probably there's a lot of portals there that you wouldn't know anything about -- usually because you'd assume they're far away.

Unless you go into other people's portals (which, we can assume, nobody did until now), it wouldn't really be a giveaway.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby jkosta » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:04 pm

I've always assumed that questions about Faq would be,

*sunglasses*

Frequently asked.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby Dr Pepper » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:19 pm

jkosta wrote:I've always assumed that questions about Faq would be,

*sunglasses*

Frequently asked.


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Read, like there won't be a movie
Game, like the die rolls don't matter
Filk, like everyone is tone deaf anyway

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 045

Postby No one in particular » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:35 pm

jkosta wrote:I've always assumed that questions about Faq would be,

*sunglasses*

Frequently asked.

Yeah, that gets a thumbs up from me too.
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