Book 2 – Page 59

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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby MonteCristo » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:37 pm

Kozbot wrote:Ceaser's duty is clearly to his side, and as near as I can tell Don doesn't really give a crap about his side as he makes no real effort to advance the interests of TV and has seemingly deliberately weakened it. Do Rulers not have any Duty?

Well it can be an 'ends justify the means" kind of situation...
If GK is not taken down TV WILL eventually fall. TV's negative turn stems from Don prepping in working towards taking down GK. If all of TV sacrifices are successful then GK will fall and the greatest threat to TV will gone allowing them to live long enough to rebuild. In theory, if they follow ceasar's example and kept trying to maintain TV instead of making sacrifices working with the coalition to take down GK, the coalition might have failed its fight against GK and TV would eventually find itself on its own and only looking forward to defeat at the hands of Stanley. Essentially, if they let jetstone fall, it will only mean the defeat of TV in the long run; but if they help save jetstone today, it could mean the defeat of GK in the long run instead.

Is all that thinking correct? who knows. But the point is that this COULD be the Don's thinking... Don believes that the best chance for his side to survive against GK is for them to make sacrifices for the sake of the coalition. If he maintained his side as it was, the coalition would have failed and thus TV would also eventually fall... Hell, if Jillian did not leave and fought like she was supposed to, wanda might have croaked and the most important challenge of this war would have been done
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby dirocyn » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:45 pm

What I see here is Don is poignant, but capable of keeping it together in front of people. And about as smart as a box of hammers. It's only goodbye if he DOES give the loan. Without the loan, Slately is forced to retreat to his other capital site.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby darshuomega » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:01 pm

It seemed to me that the Don was saying Goodbye to himself. With the problems back home, and inability to further assist the Royal cause, Don King seems poised to something drastic to make a final impact.

I expect Transylveto to surrender to Jetstone during the Thinkamancy call. This would bolster Jetstone's future chances, allow for the immediate infusion of funds, and solve Don King's problems with his warlords. This keeps Jetstone as a vital force, and Tram gets to become an heir.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Beeskee » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:08 pm

^^^ Now that is an interesting theory. I can't wait to see how this all pans out.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Sygerrik » Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:34 pm

djones520 wrote:Wanda is about to capture a Capital city, with an almost entirely decrypted army entirely loyal to her.

I'm getting a very strong feeling that she is going to "capture" Parson when he comes through the portal, then claim Jetstone as her new capital.


Not a chance. She WANTS to remain with Stanley. We don't even know if a Caster can be an Overlord, or if it requires a Warlord. Charlie is an x-factor but we don't know if the source of his power is the Arkendish (meaning that without it, he's just a Warlord).

Wanda will never, ever, ever betray Stanley because she sees him as a Tool, just like her. Same reason she would never attack Charlescomm. Besides those two all bets are off.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby MonteCristo » Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:56 pm

dirocyn wrote:What I see here is Don is poignant, but capable of keeping it together in front of people. And about as smart as a box of hammers. It's only goodbye if he DOES give the loan. Without the loan, Slately is forced to retreat to his other capital site.

No Slately might be forced to retreat either way... however with or without the loan it is not certain that slately will make it out of the city alive, he could be croaked on his way out and that will be the end of it. With the loan, should slately fail, there is still a chance of Trem getting out alive and continuing the side. Though granted, Slately is likely planning on doing everything in his power to make sure Trem is the one to survive till the end of the turn instead of himself. Don thinks the loan is to make certain jetstone lives to fight on, but Slately sees it as a way to make sure Trem, who he now realizes is his most capable son and more suited to rule than himself, survives to continue the fight.

Kozbot wrote:One thing I don't get is why people keep talking about how the loan will have any impact on whether or not Jetstone survives this turn. The only thing that will change is the loan is made is Trem will be leading Jetstone, and they'll still most likely be destroyed in short order, but certainly not this turn. They have multiple cities to fall back to. Barring an act of deliberate suicide there is virtually no chance that Jetstone falls this turn. And if they do it will have nothing to do with the loan. Now if Trem had managed to escape and Slately was captured and about to be croaked, then yeah the loan would save the side. But right now the loan is only to let Slately change who the heir is. And considering that Slately could raze one of their extra cities to get the Smuckers to name Trem heir there are other options.

First, no it is not certain the jestone will survive because it is not certain that slately will be able to escape... if you recall, the jetstonemancers were talking about how dangerous getting slately out of the city could be, there is no guarantee... however if Jetstone has an heir, then they have two shots of making sure one of them gets out of the city... and if Slately fails to get out of the city with his small stack, Trem would be certain to make it out if he were to leave with all of the remaining forces in the city.

Also, we are not sure how much it costs to designate an heir, it could be VERY expensive... we know that razing a level 3 city netted Jillian 40,000 smuckers, but people speculate that designating an heir might costs as much as 165,000 smuckers (based on the bounty that Charlie has on the decrypted archons)... one city, even a major one, might not be enough and Trem is gonna need all the cities he can get if he is gonna be able to continue the fight... I think TV's inability to pay the Gem without risking bankrupcy themselves might support the idea that designating an heir would be VERY expensive
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Oberon » Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:15 pm

No one in particular wrote:I don't really see where you're coming from on this. If your business is struggling, and your friend's business is struggling and on fire, now isn't really the best time to be investing. And while they may not be close friends like Jetstone was, there ARE other sides that TV can ally with, that aren't about to Fall or are asking for all their money.
Your friend's business is the one keeping the fire away from your business. And you can loan him the money to buy, not a fire extinguisher, but some fire retardant. If you do, your friend is still keeping the fire away from you. If you don't, you're likely to be on fire yourself. Sure, resources are tight, and it'll cost you to take this step. It may even look horrible in the near term. But that's why it's called strategy, a concept Caesar does not grasp.
No one in particular wrote:
Oberon wrote:Caesar is treasonous. The degree can be argued, but not the fact. When you oppose, contradict, and subvert your ruler's authority, you are treasonous. You may color it loyalty to the nation, loyalty to some higher calling, or whatever other justification allows you to sleep at night. But at the end of the day, it is still treason.
I would argue something like tough love here... or tough duty, I guess. If you love someone, you don't necessarily want what they want, you want what's best for them. A kid might want to eat nothing but candy and ice cream, but a parent will tell them no and make them have vegetables. An alcoholic might want a drink, but friends and loved ones will tell them no and stage an intervention. Caesar here honestly, truly believes that they cannot afford this loan. If they make it, production on new units would have to be stopped, old units would have to be disbanded... units that TV's going to need badly if they want any hope for the coming fight with GK.
Ok, I'll buy this. Caesar thinks he is advising Don towards what is best for TV. But note, he's not really advising. He just staged a stand-down that could have ended far more worse were Don a more fiery tempered ruler. But my point stands, Caesar is looking to the near term, and contradicting Don who is looking to the long term. In the end, the long term goals will see TV in a much better position than the short term goals.
Fannin wrote:
Oberon wrote:The facts of the matter are that Caesar is so horribly short sighted that he shouldn't even be opening his yap when discussing anything other than the fight right in front of him. And by now you might think that the other TV warlords would have recognized this in Caesar. It's kind of sad that they haven't.
The other warlords in the room seem to agree with the assessment, making the loan may keep GK away a little longer but since their side is hanging on by a thread the loan would also push them over the edge.
They don't speak, so it's hard to evaluate how they really feel. And Caesar has been amongst them talking up his subversive propaganda and undermining their confidence in Don for many turns. And none of them look happy about the situation at all. I think it is a long stretch to assume that they all love Caesar's stance. They stood with him, and that's all that matters at this time, but they should know by now that Caesar has serious issues when it comes to long term thinking.
cheeseaholic wrote:[snipped]3.
the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.
I don't see it.
3: Caesar didn't betray anything or anyone. He gave his asked for opinion to Benjamin.
3 applies quite well. Caesar has spent turns talking down Don's leadership, to the point where when Benjamin was given an order he decided that he had to, what? get Caesar's opinion on it before faithfully carrying it out. And then Caesar talked Benjamin and the entire warlord cadre into standing down Don over the order.

The campaign of subversive destruction of Don's authority was treacherous. The rallying of forces against Don's leadership was treacherous. The contradiction of Don's authority was treacherous. Don recognizes this quite clearly when he ironically agrees with Caesar that the "troubles are here at home."
Kozbot wrote:One thing I don't get is why people keep talking about how the loan will have any impact on whether or not Jetstone survives this turn. The only thing that will change is the loan is made is Trem will be leading Jetstone, and they'll still most likely be destroyed in short order, but certainly not this turn.
The regime change is exactly why the loan will potentially extend Jetstone's future. Slately was the monarch who orchestrated the disastrous RCC and RCCII alliances, due to his prejudices against non-royal sides. Both campaigns placed all of the royal sides involved in them into precarious positions. Jetstone is nearly broke, harvesting sourmanders and razing minor cities for upkeep costs. TV is nearly broke, and unable to decisively defeat Carpool to secure their borders. Unaroyal is no more. And every other member of the RCC lost significant forces in TBfGK, and risks even more as members of the RCCII.

Tram, despite his earlier carrying of the idiot-ball, has more recently been portrayed as being very quick to grasp tactical situations, and his diplomatic outlook in being willing to speak to Charlie, Parson, and Ossomer is vastly more open minded and able to adapt than Slately could ever hope to be.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby No one in particular » Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:12 am

Oberon wrote:
No one in particular wrote:I don't really see where you're coming from on this. If your business is struggling, and your friend's business is struggling and on fire, now isn't really the best time to be investing. And while they may not be close friends like Jetstone was, there ARE other sides that TV can ally with, that aren't about to Fall or are asking for all their money.
Your friend's business is the one keeping the fire away from your business. And you can loan him the money to buy, not a fire extinguisher, but some fire retardant. If you do, your friend is still keeping the fire away from you. If you don't, you're likely to be on fire yourself. Sure, resources are tight, and it'll cost you to take this step. It may even look horrible in the near term. But that's why it's called strategy, a concept Caesar does not grasp.
The fire isn't the issue here, though. The issue is that you're both on the verge of bankruptcy, and the other guy is in the middle of a crisis. Put another way, it's triage, man. TV's got two broken legs and is about to go into shock, while Jetstone has taken a shotgun to the gut and another to the face. TV, if given attention and time to recover, might be able to stand on it's own two feet again someday. Jetstone, barring a miracle, is going to die. With a miracle, it's going to be crippled, and might die anyway. Trying to get a blood transfusion from TV to stabilize Jetstone looks like an awesome way to kill both patients.

Sure, maybe it looks like it'll be impossible to get that rest if Jetstone falls, but I repeat: there are other sides. TV's just going to have to make some new friends, and they've already started with Faq. Just keep mentioning how Unaroyal and Jetstone fell, and how GK keeps expanding, and hopefully people will apply some of that strategy of yours to TV.


Oberon wrote:
No one in particular wrote:
Oberon wrote:Caesar is treasonous. The degree can be argued, but not the fact. When you oppose, contradict, and subvert your ruler's authority, you are treasonous. You may color it loyalty to the nation, loyalty to some higher calling, or whatever other justification allows you to sleep at night. But at the end of the day, it is still treason.
I would argue something like tough love here... or tough duty, I guess. If you love someone, you don't necessarily want what they want, you want what's best for them. A kid might want to eat nothing but candy and ice cream, but a parent will tell them no and make them have vegetables. An alcoholic might want a drink, but friends and loved ones will tell them no and stage an intervention. Caesar here honestly, truly believes that they cannot afford this loan. If they make it, production on new units would have to be stopped, old units would have to be disbanded... units that TV's going to need badly if they want any hope for the coming fight with GK.
Ok, I'll buy this. Caesar thinks he is advising Don towards what is best for TV. But note, he's not really advising. He just staged a stand-down that could have ended far more worse were Don a more fiery tempered ruler. But my point stands, Caesar is looking to the near term, and contradicting Don who is looking to the long term. In the end, the long term goals will see TV in a much better position than the short term goals.
Don may be looking across the canyon, and seeing fertile fields and cool streams. Caesar is looking at the canyon, and seeing that the bridge is out. Long term is great, if you can reach it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby MonteCristo » Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:07 am

No one in particular wrote:Don may be looking across the canyon, and seeing fertile fields and cool streams. Caesar is looking at the canyon, and seeing that the bridge is out. Long term is great, if you can reach it.

The way i see it, Don knows the bridge is out and knows it will cost a huge amount of people and resources to reach it... ceasar would rather not take the risk of getting across and wants to stay on the side they are currently on and make it better. However there's a HUGE storm coming and while Ceasar thinks they can get through it, Don thinks that Cesar is underestimating what's coming and that getting to the other side is the ONLY chance they have to survive



Oberon wrote:Ok, I'll buy this. Caesar thinks he is advising Don towards what is best for TV. But note, he's not really advising. He just staged a stand-down that could have ended far more worse were Don a more fiery tempered ruler. But my point stands, Caesar is looking to the near term, and contradicting Don who is looking to the long term. In the end, the long term goals will see TV in a much better position than the short term goals.

Ceasar is not merely advising because he KNOWS Don won't listen... Don has already been told the risks and nothing cesaar can say will change his mind. Ceasar thinks he knows better than Don, he knows that Don and TV will fall if he keeps on this path and thus is forcing him to do things his way. Its not much different than Trem who says he will take Slately out of the city by FORCE if he has to... the only difference is whether or not you think the thoughts behind the Cheif warlords are actually correct... in both cases they THINK they know what's best for their ruler and are acting on it.

And Yes Ceasar has been subverting Don's authority but even THAT is for the Don's own good; atleast as far as he sees it... TV has been falling apart ever since tbgk and its because of Don's change in his style of leadership. Ceasar sees this new don as self-destructive... for the sake of TV and himself Don NEEDS to change back to his old ways and rule the way he used to rule. Blindly following Don will only lead to TV's fall, and if Don refuses to listen to reason then his hand must be forced... if the casters and warlords also say Don is wrong then he may start thinking that there IS something wrong with what he's doing and its not just Ceasar... Whether or not you think Ceasar is correct is a different issue, in the end he is doing what he THINKS is best for the side.

Like i said above, its not that Ceasar is not thinking in the long term its just that his thinking is not the same as Don... When it comes down to it, Ceasar looks at TV as it is now and has seen it falling apart and its been Don's leadership at the cause. Ceasar believes they should be bolstering themselves and THAT is their best chance of survival in the long run... Don however believed that like Bea, that he must make personal sacrifices if they are to defeat GK; bolstering themselves and only doing what they did before would only result in their destruction in the long run; supporting the rise of Faq, and trying to keep Jetstone in the game is necessary at their own expense is a necessary sacrifice to beat GK... both ARE thinking in the long term, its just they have two different opinions on what how they need to obtain there goals, and it is uncertain which one is right... on the one hand its looking very bad for the RCCII and TV itself is on the brink of ruin, on the other hand, if Jillian attacked Wanda as intended the RCCII would have taken a HUGE step forward in winning this war; though i might add part of why jillian was able to get so close is because of Charlie who was not part of Don's plans (in otherwords luck good and bad might have had a hand in it instead of just solid long term planning)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby ftl » Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:42 am

So, just a question with respect to all this... has Don EVER said to Caesar that he's doing this because it's better to stop GK now rather than later? Ever?

Because from my end, it looks like Don isn't acting off those thoughts, he's acting because he's losing his friends and wants to keep them alive. And wants to promote Royalty. And Caesar sees this and thinks it's madness. If there's an argument to be made for investing in Jetstone, Don hasn't made it, hasn't even *tried* to make it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby the_tick_rules » Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:06 am

I don't really see a loan for designating an heir as aiding in GK's defeat as the tactical battle for jetstone is concerned. That's what jillian/haggar were supposed to do. Slate isn't trying to turn the tide, he's trying to do something heroic.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Smoker » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:45 am

It doesn't matter if you trust Don's motives or not. We had this discussion about Don's ongoing support of FAQ a while back, and almost exactly the same thing holds true here: The more sides you have between yourself and GK, the better.

With every side that falls, GK becomes stronger. Not only do they decrypt your troops, but they gain your cities and thus their associated income, production and unit types.

If Jetstone falls (or FAQ is given up) then there is less of a buffer between GK and TV, and that is a bad, bad thing, regardless of any other situation you might have with Carpool or anyone else. It will make the struggle with Carpool even harder, but if Don can fork out the Shmuckers to support Jetstone in whatever crazy idea they might have to survive as a side (be it a leadership change, promoting courtiers to stabbers, new livery or whatever) then he supports the chance that GK will not one day soon become TVs problem.

Now if this is succesfull, and Jetstone and FAQ can beat back GK, perhaps by croaking Wanda or however else, then you have Jetstone, TV and FAQ all fighting to clean up the mess. This means keeping Haggar at bay, taking back cities from Carpool, etc etc etc. They could very soon go back to a very strong alliance, with FAQ taking the place of Unaroyal.

This does, as it has been pointed out in the past, all fall to pieces if TV are prepared to say "Bugger it, if you cant beat em, join em." and make an alliance with GK. Alarmingly, there are not many reasons why they wouldn't:

1) Ethics. It just aint right to ally with GK, who execute prisoners and re-animate their bodies into seemingly blindly loyal zombie-esque units.
2) Maintaining the alliance. If they quit the fight, and GK somehow does fall, then where are TV left? Between a greedy Carpool and a pissed off Jetstone, that's where.
3) Possible magical bindings of their alliances. Tramennis mentioned it when discussing the possibility of alliance with GK. There is a very slim chance that somewhere in the sides' histories, they have a magicly binding contract that prevents them from alliance with Jetstone's enemy. This is very far fetched, but you know, trying to think creatively here.

If I were playing this as a game, I'd be breaking alliance and siding with GK. If I was living this as real life, I'd be throwing my all against these bastards.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby coyo » Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:49 pm

The look on Bunny's face says a lot. So well drawn, a person caught between two loyalties.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby MonteCristo » Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:36 pm

ftl wrote:So, just a question with respect to all this... has Don EVER said to Caesar that he's doing this because it's better to stop GK now rather than later? Ever?

Because from my end, it looks like Don isn't acting off those thoughts, he's acting because he's losing his friends and wants to keep them alive. And wants to promote Royalty. And Caesar sees this and thinks it's madness. If there's an argument to be made for investing in Jetstone, Don hasn't made it, hasn't even *tried* to make it.

not specifically, but you can look back to Don and Slately's last conversation and what they said about Queen Bea. Basically they saw what they saw her do to be true nobility; sacrificing herself and her side so that her side would not just end up bolstering GK and thus giving the rest of the RCCII, the rest of erfworld for that matter, a better chance to bring an end to GK and survive... Essentially Don is following these same ideals; all the damage that he has done to his side has been a personal sacrifice on his part to bring down GK; sacrifices for the greater good

Really, i don't think Don needs to explain why they should keep jetstone alive... as long as they are alive they can fight. If Jetstone falls then every city they still have will freeze and be easy picking; those cities will be easily taken and GK will quickly be able to move on to their next target; hell GK may even ignore the frozen cities and just move on to the next target... If Jetstone survives, then they can retreat and reorganize and prepare for another big battle. It will take time and effort to finish off jetstone which gives all the other sides more time to plan for how they can beat GK and they may even be ready by the time GK reaches Jetstone's second capital. Ceasar disagrees not because he does not think they are not worth saving, but because he sees Jetstone as a lost cause and are likely doomed no matter what; spending resources trying to save them would most likely just end up being a waste and damaging to TV
coyo wrote:The look on Bunny's face says a lot. So well drawn, a person caught between two loyalties.

Ya it might just be because Don keeps her constantly by her side, but i somehow get the feeling that Bunny's loyalty to Don is so high that she may just choose him over Ceasar if she was forced to choose who to support; despite her love for Ceasar... I suppose one thing that might help push bunny towards Don over Ceasar is that Bunny KNOWS what Don is thinking and has been going through; she's been by his side and constantly hears every conversation he has with other sides... Ceasar may not understand what Don is doing but she might; she may very well be the only person on the whole TV side that can understand and Sympathize with Don
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby timh » Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:55 pm

Slately could, at this point, also offer to "sell" Tramennis to TV.

I mean, that way Jetstone would still likely fall but Slately gets his big finish and Tramennis would survive. I'm betting Don king wouldn't mind a royal prince to name Chief warlord and heir for TV himself.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:39 pm

The funny thing about this betrayal debate is that I can read MarbitChow's post and think "there's one very cogent case for the existence of such a thing as loyal dissent", yet on the other hand look at the quoted definitions for treason and find that they all support Oberon's point!

Maybe those definitions are wrong, maybe YMMV enough that you think they don't apply (I think they do; each and every one ... well ok, I need to stretch 1 a bit), maybe loyal (to country) dissent (against the ruler, or specifically a decision of said ruler) technically fits betrayal definitions without being a paradox (since arguably the loyalty and dissent apply to different entities).

A lot of forum ink has been spilled on those questions, too much for me to bring anything new apart from my perspective. Caesar is, in fact, short-sighted in his haste to not throw good money after bad. Alas, Don, trusting too much in Caesar's abilities or something, did not consider that elaborating on his plans to his warlords may be a good idea. TV's situation is not as bad as Jetstone's, and it certainly allows TV to create a gem to send to Jetstone; however, the situation is bad enough that the court Moneymancer decided that asking the Chief Warlord was needed, before following through with that order. I also get the feeling that TV's warlords may think Jetstone's situation is worse than it actually is.

DoctorJest wrote:
djones520 wrote:Wanda is about to capture a Capital city, with an almost entirely decrypted army entirely loyal to her.

I'm getting a very strong feeling that she is going to "capture" Parson when he comes through the portal, then claim Jetstone as her new capital.


Wanda's goal is to unite the Arkentools. I doubt very much she'll split with Stanley while he's got the hammer and as long as he can be successfully circumvented when he gets in the way, especially since he has the same goal she does (albeit for different reasons). Splitting with GK would go against everything Wanda believes in and is trying to accomplish, so I am confident your speculation is wrong.


This idea keeps popping up, of Wanda splitting. And every time it does, like a broken record, I remind people that Wanda had a perfect time to split into her own side, way back when she was among the few units standing atop the ruins of GK. That was a capital city, after all, and in a jiffy Wanda used her pliers to raise a 3000-strong army or such, plus 19 Archons. I get the feeling that, had she wanted to, she would have obliterated Stanley's remaining force, especially as many Dwagons had perished in the ambush. Plus, all this side of Erfworld, at that time, was technically against Stanley, not Wanda. Had she claimed the Tool's scalp, I think most others would have left her more or less alone (assuming she wouldn't have started a campaign of conquest) and any such thing as an RCC (temporarily) disbanded.

So, back when Erfworld was at page 14x of Book 1, I was putting forth the tinfoil hat theory that Wanda will split into her own side NOW. But she didn't. So, I don't see why she should do so, now.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby coyo » Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:46 pm

MonteCristo wrote:
coyo wrote:The look on Bunny's face says a lot. So well drawn, a person caught between two loyalties.

Ya it might just be because Don keeps her constantly by her side, but i somehow get the feeling that Bunny's loyalty to Don is so high that she may just choose him over Ceasar if she was forced to choose who to support; despite her love for Ceasar... I suppose one thing that might help push bunny towards Don over Ceasar is that Bunny KNOWS what Don is thinking and has been going through; she's been by his side and constantly hears every conversation he has with other sides... Ceasar may not understand what Don is doing but she might; she may very well be the only person on the whole TV side that can understand and Sympathize with Don


I also expect her to remain loyal to Don. I should say, she understands what's to come and is afraid for Caeser. Maybe her face is the face one gets when one's best friends are fighting, possibly fatally fighting.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Sieggy » Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:55 pm

Slately could always SELL some of his cities (the closest to TV) to the Don, with an understanding that if the side survives, they can buy them back later at a price equal to whatever the hard terms were originally. That way, if JS DOES fall, those assets don't go to GK, frozen in time waiting for Parson to pluck them. And if Trem is as good as Slately now thinks he is, then the possibility of recovering the JS cities remains. In the meantime, it's not a loan - it's a fire sale. And TV has something to show for it, which would make Caesar happy, as well as provide a source of incoming cash in the meantime.

However, both Trem & Slately are holding the idiot ball for not taking out the Archons now - not just for the bounty, but just so they're not looking at having to face them down the line.

Slately wants to go out in a blaze of glory so he can get into the City of Heroes. He recognizes that he's a failure, and while not aware of the similarity, he fell into the same trap as Stanley. That of promoting the highers charisma unit into positions of command. He pretty much admitted that to Ossomer . . . He wants redemption.

But that's moot, now - Trem is going up into the Tower (the one that's about to get skragged by the Purples) to get his father out, and where the rocketpack awaits him for his retreat. Slately is toast. Whether any of the casters survive is problematic, though a Parson / Ace teamup might be totally overbalancing from a game POV. And a Parson / Ace / Tramennis teamup would have the Titans leaving the building . . .
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Morgaln » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:09 pm

Smoker wrote:It doesn't matter if you trust Don's motives or not. We had this discussion about Don's ongoing support of FAQ a while back, and almost exactly the same thing holds true here: The more sides you have between yourself and GK, the better.

With every side that falls, GK becomes stronger. Not only do they decrypt your troops, but they gain your cities and thus their associated income, production and unit types.

If Jetstone falls (or FAQ is given up) then there is less of a buffer between GK and TV, and that is a bad, bad thing, regardless of any other situation you might have with Carpool or anyone else. It will make the struggle with Carpool even harder, but if Don can fork out the Shmuckers to support Jetstone in whatever crazy idea they might have to survive as a side (be it a leadership change, promoting courtiers to stabbers, new livery or whatever) then he supports the chance that GK will not one day soon become TVs problem.

Now if this is succesfull, and Jetstone and FAQ can beat back GK, perhaps by croaking Wanda or however else, then you have Jetstone, TV and FAQ all fighting to clean up the mess. This means keeping Haggar at bay, taking back cities from Carpool, etc etc etc. They could very soon go back to a very strong alliance, with FAQ taking the place of Unaroyal.

This does, as it has been pointed out in the past, all fall to pieces if TV are prepared to say "Bugger it, if you cant beat em, join em." and make an alliance with GK. Alarmingly, there are not many reasons why they wouldn't:

1) Ethics. It just aint right to ally with GK, who execute prisoners and re-animate their bodies into seemingly blindly loyal zombie-esque units.
2) Maintaining the alliance. If they quit the fight, and GK somehow does fall, then where are TV left? Between a greedy Carpool and a pissed off Jetstone, that's where.
3) Possible magical bindings of their alliances. Tramennis mentioned it when discussing the possibility of alliance with GK. There is a very slim chance that somewhere in the sides' histories, they have a magicly binding contract that prevents them from alliance with Jetstone's enemy. This is very far fetched, but you know, trying to think creatively here.

If I were playing this as a game, I'd be breaking alliance and siding with GK. If I was living this as real life, I'd be throwing my all against these bastards.


A different perspective, perhaps:

From Caesar's point of view, Jetstone will fall whether they get the loan or not. That means those units and cities Jetstone still has will belong to GK sooner or later anyway, which means Jetstone falling now won't really make GK much stronger than they will get if Jetstone survives another few turns.
However, if Jetstone falls now, all those remaining cities go barbarian; which means TV would not be breaking any alliance if they went and conquered some of those cities before GK does. Which is added income and production for TV, making that side stronger instead of letting everything Jetstone owns fall into GK hands, as Caesar assumes will happen anyway. From a strategic point of view, that is the better outcome.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby BakaGrappler » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:46 pm

What I like most about this update isn't the intrigue or the resolution of the Loan, but the faces. These faces have told me who is part of the Don Faction and who is part of the Caesar Faction.

The business suited, tall white tee shirted, and blond bombshell Warlords seem to be Don faction. The two men looked genuinely sorrowful at the knowledge of the fact that opposing this transaction, and Don himself, here would be the death of their Allies. The decision is painful for them. And the blond is worried from beginning to end, breathing a sigh of relief at the final moments suggests she is nicely in the Neutral, if not a Don supporter. And if she is Neutral, Duty will eventually cause her to side with Don anyway.

I like the Blond in this one, as she seems like she is the undecided member of the ship that is getting ready to mutiny, not able to decide what to choose, loyalty to the captain or the charm of the first lieutenant. I think following her around would give an idea of the conflict inside Transilvito from the middle ground, and not just one camp's view or the other. Good soil for plot there. ...No pun intended.

And the brunette and the raven haired girls are obviously in Caesar's camp, probably because they're all starry eyed about the guy. The only look those two gave Don was furrowed eyebrows of aggression! GRRR!

The shorty in the white tee shirt, I dunno. Didn't see enough of him in the panels.

(And since giving a name to a character often forces an author to unconsciously start thinking about them in terms of the plot and I wanna see Transilvito through the eyes of a warlord that has not chosen a faction yet, I suggest naming the blond warlord Claudia, after the character Kirsten Dunst played in Interview with a Vampire, which was a blond girl that looked like a living doll, she was so cute.)

EDIT: By the way, where is the link for the textless page this time around? I have something I wanna do with a panel in this update. :3
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