Book 2 - Text Updates 047

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Dr Pepper » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:31 pm

Zeku wrote:So what does the misshapen tile "signify?"

Ossomer himself, out of place, but still fulfilling a role in the balance of power?
His expanding perception of Titanic will, that can now tolerate localized imperfection?
Or perhaps he now sees, as Slately does, that something unremarkable or imperfect can be the true sign of Royalty, as he observes in the same update?


I don't think Ossomer is suicidal, at all. I think we're just seeing that while Ossomer is compelled to obey Wanda, this is at odds with his own personality. He places the trappings and Signamancy of Royalty above most other considerations, and will gravitate towards those things in all of his short-term decisions. He's not really considering letting Slately croak him, (this is not what is actually happening) he's just saying "If they manage to kamikaze me, that will confirm the things I believe about Royalty." This is an emotional internal monologue in a moment of weakness, it's not his life mission statement.


-About science answering moral questions, the most mind-boggling example to me is the Prisoner's Dilemma, where computer simulations show that cooperation is logically advantageous, even if each simulation is just attempting to do what is best for itself, with zero consideration for the other simulations.


I personally like the "Ghandi Solution", the program refuses to participate until the rules are changed.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Swodaems » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:08 pm

This update confirmed that the carpet is magic item and not a unit of any kind that was decrypted by Wanda after Gobwin Knob. More specifically, it is a Jetstone Item that has fallen into enemy hands, possibly made by Ace or Holly Shortcake. This revelation gives me two questions.

First, was that an actual game mechanic Webinar was using to grab that hat from that whore*? (*For those of you who disagree with me on my assessment, I just want to say that she has been paid an extremely large amount of money to do dirty work. (And to do it poorly at that))

Second, Word of the Titans says that notes could be passed thru hex bounderies, what about something more substantial, yet not a direct form of attack such as an arrow? Could this allow the Carpet to pass thru the tower boundery? (Possiblity of its being able to go thru may affected by its being a jetstone item as well)

Depending on the answer to these questions, I can see the following seen happening in the Spacerock portal room.

Parson: Alright, As you may or may not have noticed already, I am not a normal command unit, and as such, do not have access to the natural abilities that tell me tell me what is going on in this hex. Is there anything going on that i should know about?

Wanda/Jack/Antium/Lacrosse/random unit: (With a very deadpan or otherwise funny expression) Yes, Lord Ossomer has just been incapacitated by his own mount / fallen because he sent his mount to wrap around Slately / used his mount to drag Slately/Tram/Ace/Peirce/Cubbins/Lloyd into airspace. And for some reason, he is now holding a small piece of stone masonry.

(Utter silence for a period of no less than 15.531 seconds)
Last edited by Swodaems on Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby El_Chupacabra » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:14 pm

MichaelR138 wrote:
El_Chupacabra wrote:[Said something stupid here, deleted]....

I have a thought about what's happening next, which does not involve Ossomer "Turning" but still has Ossomer risking violating Erf Rules in order to preserve what he believes to be a Titanic Mandate regarding the honorable end to a Royal or Commander:

Spoiler: show
Ossomer decides he must risk an Erfworld "Fall" in order to reach enemy territory and Capture/Kill the Royals as befitting his honor. He steps off -- onto that odd tile -- and either autosplats or survives unscathed. IF he survives, the Casters try to protect Sir Squatty (can't remember his name right now) and Ossomer carves up a few of them, including Ace. He may actually capture/croak the King himself.

To me, this would be most in line with Ossomer honoring Toolism as part of his change while still being in touch with his Honor Duties. If he Autosplats, it was the Titan's will. If he lands, he gets a chance to defeat the Commanders and Royalty the "honorable" way. It also would mean more conflict with the others, as he would be technically violating orders.

IF he autosplats, I hope it's done hilariously. I could see one frame being him gently stepping down on the ground; his toe barely touches in the next frame, and the third features him asploding into a big dust cloud as the stunned Commanders and King look on.


Of course, I suck at predictions.


To start with, since you cannot fall laterally over a rail and Oss cannot cross the boundary between himself and the balcony off turn, the rest of your predicition is invalid because it violates the rules of Erf in a way that cannot be easily overcome if at all, and certainly not by a hidebound side of beef that is moping rather then thinking anyway.

Michael


I stand by my statement... That I suck at predictions.

That being said, I'm not sure where it's been cited that a rail can't be fallen over. The deliberate crossing I could see -- if he dismounts the carpet and "steps" toward the floor, he'll most likely "foomp" against the boundary. Again, entertaining, but not useful. But if he "rolls" off the carpet....

As for the character description, I agree we're not dealing with the sharpest Tool in the Titan's Shed. Still, it could be more of a "Monkey See, Monkey Do" option. Oss saw all the others "fall"; how hard would it to be to assume he could just "fall" off his mount from a safer height?

My problem is the speculation he might just simply "turn". Granted, he's got to have one of the lowest Loyalty Stats around right now, and maybe he's too "Royalty-Brained" to have the Pliers spell hold. But I'm having problems with it being that "easy". I'd buy him being paralyzed with indecision, or even auto-disbanding, over suddenly having his crest "pop" back to Jetstone Livery.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby boegiboe » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:55 pm

Has anyone satisfactorily identified why Ossomer does not carry Wanda's Sign (flower and all)?

This can't be something Xin and Rob have overlooked. This has to indicate either that Ossomer is out of Wanda's bonus range (easiest reason), or that he doesn't carry Wanda's crest fully (more interesting).
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:28 pm

boegiboe wrote:Has anyone satisfactorily identified why Ossomer does not carry Wanda's Sign (flower and all)?

This can't be something Xin and Rob have overlooked. This has to indicate either that Ossomer is out of Wanda's bonus range (easiest reason), or that he doesn't carry Wanda's crest fully (more interesting).


The last time I can find (quickly) that we see Ossomer is Page 53, right as Wanda is doing her WREQUIEM (before she's moved off to the portal room). He does indeed have the full crest, as is obvious in many other places (including someone's avatar, if I remember correctly. :P ) There's a decrypted squad defending Progrock from Jillian on Page 56, but they're too small to see their crests (and most are facing away anyway).

I agree that Ossomer's missing flower is rather too blatant to be an error... but what it means escapes me. I'm more inclined to the latter, that he for some reason is no longer wearing the full crest. Mechanistically, I doubt Wanda's being in the Courtyard would give any more bonus to Ossomer in the Airspace than her being in the Portal Room (presumably Dungeons) would. They're separate sub-zones, after all.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Zeku » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:37 am

Swodaems wrote:Second, Word of the Titans says that notes could be passed thru hex bounderies, what about something more substantial, yet not a direct form of attack such as an arrow? Could this allow the Carpet to pass thru the tower boundery? (Possiblity of its being able to go thru may affected by its being a jetstone item as well)


My guess is that it's only information that can be passed between hexes. The note itself is probably just a conveyance generated by the hat itself, like a printer.

Concerning the flower, it's obviously a little art oversight. This comic is subtle, but it's not that subtle.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby the_tick_rules » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:16 am

I remember parson had arrows shot at a hex boundary during his expiramenting and they didn't make it. so erf is very strict on stuff passing through hex off-turn. Course parson might be working on some exploit to get cool stuff through hex walls. he bending rules left and right, no reason this one can't be on his to do list.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Jinren » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:36 am

Zeku wrote:
Swodaems wrote:Second, Word of the Titans says that notes could be passed thru hex bounderies, what about something more substantial, yet not a direct form of attack such as an arrow? Could this allow the Carpet to pass thru the tower boundery? (Possiblity of its being able to go thru may affected by its being a jetstone item as well)


My guess is that it's only information that can be passed between hexes. The note itself is probably just a conveyance generated by the hat itself, like a printer.

Concerning the flower, it's obviously a little art oversight. This comic is subtle, but it's not that subtle.


I would guess that the restriction is actually on weapons and attacks. It'd be in character with the exploits we've seen so far if "all other items" could cross hex boundaries freely as part of the natural world's background.

As for hats... I'd assumed they functioned as arbitrary teleporters and could convey anything (fire an arrow into one and it probably loses all its momentum and confuses the person you were trying to assassinate, but a time bomb might work). Since they're hats, they're designed to be too small to fit a whole person through, which suggests the actual transmission may not need any further restrictions on the assumption that their combat use is heavily limited.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Smoker » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:14 am

Green dwagon battlecrap could be effective if the other hat was actually being worn at the time.


Ah, but you need to tap it with a wand and speak a command word for it to work, which would generally not happen until the hat was taken off :(

Still, it might melt a hand?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby MichaelR138 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:40 am

El_Chupacabra wrote:
MichaelR138 wrote:
El_Chupacabra wrote:[Said something stupid here, deleted]....

I have a thought about what's happening next, which does not involve Ossomer "Turning" but still has Ossomer risking violating Erf Rules in order to preserve what he believes to be a Titanic Mandate regarding the honorable end to a Royal or Commander:

Spoiler: show
Ossomer decides he must risk an Erfworld "Fall" in order to reach enemy territory and Capture/Kill the Royals as befitting his honor. He steps off -- onto that odd tile -- and either autosplats or survives unscathed. IF he survives, the Casters try to protect Sir Squatty (can't remember his name right now) and Ossomer carves up a few of them, including Ace. He may actually capture/croak the King himself.

To me, this would be most in line with Ossomer honoring Toolism as part of his change while still being in touch with his Honor Duties. If he Autosplats, it was the Titan's will. If he lands, he gets a chance to defeat the Commanders and Royalty the "honorable" way. It also would mean more conflict with the others, as he would be technically violating orders.

IF he autosplats, I hope it's done hilariously. I could see one frame being him gently stepping down on the ground; his toe barely touches in the next frame, and the third features him asploding into a big dust cloud as the stunned Commanders and King look on.


Of course, I suck at predictions.


To start with, since you cannot fall laterally over a rail and Oss cannot cross the boundary between himself and the balcony off turn, the rest of your predicition is invalid because it violates the rules of Erf in a way that cannot be easily overcome if at all, and certainly not by a hidebound side of beef that is moping rather then thinking anyway.

Michael


I stand by my statement... That I suck at predictions.

That being said, I'm not sure where it's been cited that a rail can't be fallen over. The deliberate crossing I could see -- if he dismounts the carpet and "steps" toward the floor, he'll most likely "foomp" against the boundary. Again, entertaining, but not useful. But if he "rolls" off the carpet....

As for the character description, I agree we're not dealing with the sharpest Tool in the Titan's Shed. Still, it could be more of a "Monkey See, Monkey Do" option. Oss saw all the others "fall"; how hard would it to be to assume he could just "fall" off his mount from a safer height?

My problem is the speculation he might just simply "turn". Granted, he's got to have one of the lowest Loyalty Stats around right now, and maybe he's too "Royalty-Brained" to have the Pliers spell hold. But I'm having problems with it being that "easy". I'd buy him being paralyzed with indecision, or even auto-disbanding, over suddenly having his crest "pop" back to Jetstone Livery.


The problem is any lateral motion would come from a movement by Oss, which would cause him to bounce off the hex barrier IMHO. I see no way for him to gain lateral momentum withouth providing some motion that direction himself which would count as Oss trying to move across the boundary and thus bounce as a rules violation.

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby MichaelR138 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:25 am

CaptC wrote:
MichaelR138 wrote:And even if Jetstone survives, it does not redeem Don King from turns and turns of poor decisions and leading his side to near ruin.


Leaders know they are only as good as their last big decision. Caesar said, "Hey guys, let's risk being disbanded because Don King's going to do something stupid." If you are a Transylvitian warlord, and Jetstone turns the tables on GK (showing that Don King was right), then you may very well think to yourself: "I could have been ended because I listened to Caesar's horrible judgement call."

You will think twice about further rebellion. Even if you think Don King is doing a bad job, your only alternative hasn't shown he can do better. Better the idiot you know...


Like Oberon you are ignoring that Carpool is conquering TV during this whole mess and that Don King is ignoring the imediate threat focusing on the more distant one. Caesar is seeing the lost cities, the inability to build new units because of the money flowing out to other sides and now Don King wants to take a huge gamble where if it fails, TV will have to disband a large portion of their already inadequate army which could lead to Carpool destroying the side in only a few more turns. To use the fire analogy that some have put forth. Your neighbor's house to your south is one fire from the south and is half consumed, and he wants you to loan him your fire extinquisher and garden hose. Seems like a good idea, help him fight the fire before it gets to you. Unfortunately your house is on fire from the north side where it just started burning and if you give him all your fire fighting equipment, whether he stops his fire or not, yours will burn down. That is how Caesar sees the problems with Jetstone, TV, and Carpool. IF TV was not getting curb stomped by Carpool ATM, sure, make the loan and take the risk, but right now, TV needs all its resources to try and stop Carpool's advance before they lose the whole side. Then there is Jillian and what she may do now that she has left the alliance with much of TV's treasury wrapped up in her airforce. What if she sides with Carpool after Don King makes that loan? And if you don't think the TV leadership should be worrying about that, you are not thinking very strategically or looking at the long term in anything but what is in Jetstone's best interests.

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby drachefly » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:00 am

MichaelR138 wrote:I cannot see it, no way Slately has changed enough to trust Charlie on the bounty.


He's desperate, and they've hired Charlie before.

MichaelR138 wrote:One shockamancy bolt likely kills an unleveled King with no combat experience.


As Ossomer just indicated, mounts can take hits for their riders. Some of those unipegataurs may be tough enough to take several archon blasts. Wanda's uncroaked unipegataur fell to many, yes; these may be royal guard members - higher level - or equipped with special defensive equipment.

This assumes, of course, that they aren't putting the jetpack on Slately. If so, well, he'll have screening stacks as earlier stated. We'll see what happens, but there are definitely enough tools lying around to make a decent assault.

Anyway, the archons are known for sure not to be at full juice, as opposed to those at GK in book 1 where there was no known use for juice they would have had.

So this isn't nearly as dangerous as you indicate. It is still quite dangerous, to be sure.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby MichaelR138 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:40 am

drachefly wrote:
MichaelR138 wrote:I cannot see it, no way Slately has changed enough to trust Charlie on the bounty.


He's desperate, and they've hired Charlie before.

MichaelR138 wrote:One shockamancy bolt likely kills an unleveled King with no combat experience.


As Ossomer just indicated, mounts can take hits for their riders. Some of those unipegataurs may be tough enough to take several archon blasts. Wanda's uncroaked unipegataur fell to many, yes; these may be royal guard members - higher level - or equipped with special defensive equipment.

This assumes, of course, that they aren't putting the jetpack on Slately. If so, well, he'll have screening stacks as earlier stated. We'll see what happens, but there are definitely enough tools lying around to make a decent assault.

Anyway, the archons are known for sure not to be at full juice, as opposed to those at GK in book 1 where there was no known use for juice they would have had.

So this isn't nearly as dangerous as you indicate. It is still quite dangerous, to be sure.


Maybe I have missed something, but we only know of a couple of the archons for sure that have used any juice, most of them could be at full, and the readers know every grouping has leadership and foolamancy in it, so each one could veil their real placement for long enough to restack all together and make a nearly impregnable defense. How many of the archons might have healamancy? shockamancy? how long will it take to get the bounty compared to how long they have before the tower falls? Personally I think chasing the archons is a red herring, do we even know for sure that Slately knows about the bounty?

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby CaptC » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:27 pm

MichaelR138 wrote:Like Oberon you are ignoring that Carpool is conquering TV during this whole mess and that Don King is ignoring the imediate threat focusing on the more distant one. Caesar is seeing the lost cities, the inability to build new units because of the money flowing out to other sides and now Don King wants to take a huge gamble where if it fails, TV will have to disband a large portion of their already inadequate army which could lead to Carpool destroying the side in only a few more turns. To use the fire analogy that some have put forth. Your neighbor's house to your south is one fire from the south and is half consumed, and he wants you to loan him your fire extinquisher and garden hose. Seems like a good idea, help him fight the fire before it gets to you. Unfortunately your house is on fire from the north side where it just started burning and if you give him all your fire fighting equipment, whether he stops his fire or not, yours will burn down. That is how Caesar sees the problems with Jetstone, TV, and Carpool. IF TV was not getting curb stomped by Carpool ATM, sure, make the loan and take the risk, but right now, TV needs all its resources to try and stop Carpool's advance before they lose the whole side. Then there is Jillian and what she may do now that she has left the alliance with much of TV's treasury wrapped up in her airforce. What if she sides with Carpool after Don King makes that loan? And if you don't think the TV leadership should be worrying about that, you are not thinking very strategically or looking at the long term in anything but what is in Jetstone's best interests.


I freely grant you all the points you are making. Caesar has reason to behave the way he does.

But I think you may be missing a point of my posts re: Transylvito's power struggle. I'm telling you (as the survivor of many a corporate power play in my day) that anyone making a power play cannot afford to be wrong when making a big public stand about major strategic decisions. Caesar has essentially bet his wagon that Jetstone is going to fall. If Jetstone doesn't, Caesar's bid for power will wither and fail.

But it's not worth too much analysis at this point. Jetstone will pull out a miracle ot they won't, and Caesar will take over Transylvito or he won't. Rob will decide, and he'll let us know bye and bye. We'll find out together, eh?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby MichaelR138 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:41 pm

CaptC wrote:But I think you may be missing a point of my posts re: Transylvito's power struggle. I'm telling you (as the survivor of many a corporate power play in my day) that anyone making a power play cannot afford to be wrong when making a big public stand about major strategic decisions. Caesar has essentially bet his wagon that Jetstone is going to fall. If Jetstone doesn't, Caesar's bid for power will wither and fail.

But it's not worth too much analysis at this point. Jetstone will pull out a miracle ot they won't, and Caesar will take over Transylvito or he won't. Rob will decide, and he'll let us know bye and bye. We'll find out together, eh?


Ah, biggest point of contention, I do not believe Caesar is trying to displace Don King at all, else he could have done it during that confrontation. All Caesar seems to want is for Don King to worry more about the eminent demise of TV then building up FAQ or the (in Caesar's mind) inevitable demise of JS.

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby CaptC » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:45 pm

MichaelR138 wrote:
drachefly wrote:
MichaelR138 wrote:I cannot see it, no way Slately has changed enough to trust Charlie on the bounty.


He's desperate, and they've hired Charlie before.


Plus, it's not really Slately's opinion that matters anymore. It's Trammenis making the war plans, and telling Slately what to do. If Trammenis wants to make battle plans that include offing archons for Charlie's pay, he will.

I grant you that Charlie's bounty MIGHT be a red herring, but if so, there's a lot of buildup that will be wasted. Charlie's been rather mean-spirited and vengeful about losing archons this whole book, starting with Haggar.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Swodaems » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:52 pm

MichaelR138 wrote:Maybe I have missed something, but we only know of a couple of the archons for sure that have used any juice, most of them could be at full, and the readers know every grouping has leadership and foolamancy in it, so each one could veil their real placement for long enough to restack all together and make a nearly impregnable defense. How many of the archons might have healamancy? shockamancy? how long will it take to get the bounty compared to how long they have before the tower falls? Personally I think chasing the archons is a red herring, do we even know for sure that Slately knows about the bounty?

Michael

We're sure he knows. Tram directly referenced it in a conversation with him. While it is still possible that he doesn't have exact details, I highly doubt that would be the case.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby CaptC » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:59 pm

MichaelR138 wrote:I do not believe Caesar is trying to displace Don King at all, else he could have done it during that confrontation. All Caesar seems to want is for Don King to worry more about the eminent demise of TV then building up FAQ or the (in Caesar's mind) inevitable demise of JS.


Standing up and telling your superior that you won't let him do what he wants to do is always a power play. Whether or not it's Caesar's aim to replace Don King is almost moot, because Don King has no choice but to treat it as an incipient coup. Caesar's reasons let us readers define Caesar as patriotic hero or selfish power-grabber, but at the end of the day, a gauntlet has been thrown down. Caesar is in a struggle for survival on the political battlefield now. He can't afford to be wrong.

(Hmmmm.... Would Caesar be able to betray Jetstone in any significant way? He now has a reason to actively want Jetstone to fall.)
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Utoryo » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:13 pm

MichaelR138 wrote:Ah, biggest point of contention, I do not believe Caesar is trying to displace Don King at all, else he could have done it during that confrontation. All Caesar seems to want is for Don King to worry more about the eminent demise of TV then building up FAQ or the (in Caesar's mind) inevitable demise of JS.
Personally, I agree with that... BUT I think Caesar would also want Don to cancel the royal heir he's popping. Of course, you could say that's justifiable even for non-selfish reasons (cannot afford to spend the time and money on it right now).
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby MichaelR138 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:29 pm

CaptC wrote:
MichaelR138 wrote:I do not believe Caesar is trying to displace Don King at all, else he could have done it during that confrontation. All Caesar seems to want is for Don King to worry more about the eminent demise of TV then building up FAQ or the (in Caesar's mind) inevitable demise of JS.


Standing up and telling your superior that you won't let him do what he wants to do is always a power play. Whether or not it's Caesar's aim to replace Don King is almost moot, because Don King has no choice but to treat it as an incipient coup. Caesar's reasons let us readers define Caesar as patriotic hero or selfish power-grabber, but at the end of the day, a gauntlet has been thrown down. Caesar is in a struggle for survival on the political battlefield now. He can't afford to be wrong.

(Hmmmm.... Would Caesar be able to betray Jetstone in any significant way? He now has a reason to actively want Jetstone to fall.)


I don't think Caesar would even if he could, he wants what is best for his side, and the continuation of JS is best for TV, as long as it doesn't cost TV so much that they fold in the process. While I agree to a point that it was a bit of a power play, I think we disagree with the aim of it. I think Caesar just wanted to jolt Don back into paying attention to the home front where TV is badly losing in its war with Carpool. I don't think he would even be too dissapointed to be disbanded, as long as he knew Don King was now actually aware of how badly his sides keister was getting kicked by Carpool at the moment.

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