Book 2 - Text Updates 047

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby skarl » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:40 pm

a nice background update.

this seems to imply that facial expressions are signamancy. I don't quite know how I should interpret that, but it may be important: if a signamancer can change the expression and body language of people, signamancers would be able to control a big part of comunication.

like: if someone seems to have a 'lying' pose, but is speaking the truth, will you believe them? and if they say that they will do something for you... that may change a lot.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby goodmorning » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:23 pm

Now that update is actually worth the delaying of the action for. Decrypted units can rebel. They have a loyalty stat. True, being re-popped probably adds a massive bonus to loyalty, but the stat remains, and Ossomer's is quite low right now.

Also, this reminds me of Wanda. She wasn't loyal to Stanley, she was loyal to Fate. Ossomer is essentially doing the same thing... shifting his loyalty to the Titans rather than to a Tool of the Titans. Its justifiable, and therefore he doesn't explode from the treachery. But yes, the point has been made that decrypted units can at least begin to turn. Jillian's hopes are looking brighter.

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby zilfallon » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:49 pm

querzis wrote:
vrellum wrote:I'll be happy if Ossamer turns. I just don't like Paron's side. Parson and even Stanley are OK, but Wanda and her pliers strike me as evil. It'd be great imo if she was the bbeg, but I don't see how that could happen and the story resolved with world peace.


I'll second that as my first post on these forums. I mean seriously, the only ones I like on Stanley side are Jack (hes just awesome) and Stanley (sure hes a tiny bastard but hes a really fun tiny bastard). I dont really care about Parson, I really hate Wanda and I kinda dislike everyone else. But on Jetstone side? I like everyone (note that I'm still including poor Ossomer on Jetstone side). I'm also liking Don even more every time we see him. I mean seriously, for me it was already hard to sympathize with Gobwin Knob in the first book back when this was still hosted on giantitp. But now that Wanda seems decided to be as much as a complete monster as possible, its just impossible for me to take Parson seriously as a 'hero' if he help her. Come on Parson, sure you would probably have gotten disbanded by Stanley afterwards but you should still have let Wanda die instead of saving her.


Why this hate? :D I'm in love with Wanda, and like everyone in GK. You can say that i'm a toolist :P
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby gameboy1234 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:52 pm

:-) wrote:I see what could happen next: The dittomancer multiplies the jetpack, granting Jetstone a new airforce wich kills the archons...



Don't forget that they do have at least a few Unipegataurs and Orlys. The King could mount a Unipegataur, as could any of the casters (if say they wanted the Healomancer to accompany the king). As Ossomer just said, living mounts give their rider a bonus, magical items do not.

P.S. And yes, I also like Wanda and Jillian too. Wanda's a bit misguided right now, Jillian's mixed up and needs to get over Ansom (decrypted or not, he's gone). Jillian and Wanda need to have a talk and settle their relationship differences. But I'm guessing all this happens sometime later in the story (possibly at the very end, after there is no reason to fight). Or maybe it never happens, and the story ends with both left as tragic figures. Good stories have those.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby ftl » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:36 pm

goodmorning wrote:Now that update is actually worth the delaying of the action for. Decrypted units can rebel. They have a loyalty stat. True, being re-popped probably adds a massive bonus to loyalty, but the stat remains, and Ossomer's is quite low right now.


I would actually say that what we're seeing isn't Loyalty, it's Duty. Slight terminology difference, though not much of a difference in terms of results.

Ossomer is NOT, strictly speaking, disobeying any orders. He's doing exactly what he's been told to, he's not even *thinking* about disregarding his orders or directly attacking Wanda or turning back to Jetstone or anything - yet, though that may change.

But his Duty has fallen through the floor. Duty is what compels commanders to work for their side on their own initiative - not just to follow orders, but to take action. Ossomer isn't doing that. He sees that Slately is planning something... that he perhaps could stop it by stacking with all the Archons and defending... but does nothing. In fact, he even inches closer to his death/capture. Not strictly disobeying orders - but not taking the action he suspects needs to be done.

Maybe that's the downside of the decrypted. They get sky-high Loyalty, but there's no similar guarantee of Duty. And it's really, really hard to separate them, so you can't tell your units have low Duty until you need one of them to take initiative and they just stand there dumbly and let themselves get captured.

And maybe I'm just reading too much into it - Loyalty and Duty are really hard to tell apart, maybe Rob intends this to be both a low-Loyalty AND low-Duty indicator and I'm just nitpicking :/
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Zeku » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:47 pm

Replying to both the post and the comments here, the comic is well known by now, for not choosing sides. The "good" side tends to make a lot of (moral) sense, but is impractical and often stupid. The "evil" side is pretty sinister, but makes good decisions, and seems to be sparing people's lives through the pliers, rather than destroying them. Charlie is still not proven to be helpful or destructive. Compare this to HBO's latest softcore telenovella, GoT, where the bad guys and good guys are strongly established by the end of episode 1.

An important second detail is that Ossomer is merely under the impression that he will be attacked. This is neither established, nor likely. His inaction is more like submission to Fate, almost a kind of depression in the face of uncontrollable circumstances, and cannot be definitely interpreted as rebellion against Wanda's control.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:06 pm

Zeku wrote:Replying to both the post and the comments here, the comic is well known by now, for not choosing sides. The "good" side tends to make a lot of (moral) sense, but is impractical and often stupid. The "evil" side is pretty sinister, but makes good decisions, and seems to be sparing people's lives through the pliers, rather than destroying them. Charlie is still not proven to be helpful or destructive. Compare this to HBO's latest softcore telenovella, GoT, where the bad guys and good guys are strongly established by the end of episode 1.

Having read the books that GoT is based on, I'm simply going to state that you have chosen a really bad example to demonstrate the point you're trying to prove. ;)
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Roketter » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:07 pm

One question i'm not sure's been asked before... can decrypted be disbanded ?

It seems they have their own toughts, ideas and are to all matters alive except when they get dusted just like decrypted. They are very different from decroaked in that they retain their own minds to some extent while geting just a major swap on loyalties and beliefs.

However they don't seem more controlled than any of than the rest of erfworld's units via natural thinkamancy. Ossomer's been getting closer and closer to questioning Wanda with each passing moment and we don't see any magical bang from the pliers to restore his loyalty back to 100%. The turnamancer couldn't turn Ansom, but that only means that either the decrypted are unable to voluntarily switch sides or they are imunne to mind-affecting spells. That doesn't mean they can perform coups within their own side.

Perhaps if Ossomer's loyalty goes into the negatives his actions will be still controlled by Wanda in the same way she controls all of the uncroaked, and become an unwilling puppet. Still there are too many decrypted right now for her to control every single unit's actions. What if they end up raising against her ? Common sense would dictate she should disband them... but she's not the faction leader so she can't.

Disbanding can only be done by the faction leader... and nobody knows wether Stanley can disband units that Wanda has decrypted with the pliers.

If the decrypted are real tools of the titans, then their loyalty is absolute towards them just as Wanda is loyal to fate magic only. Should there come a point when they believe that Wanda is not enforcing the Titans will but her own, Gobwin Knob and the world would have a massive trouble on their hands...

A huge mass of units who won't answer to any faction, with no upkeep and pretty much free will to wage war on any side without regards to erfworld's rules.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby the_tick_rules » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:10 pm

Meh, kinda boring update.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Housellama » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:22 pm

Another thing that occurs, similar to the line of thought about Duty...

Wanda has been thinking a LOT about Fate lately...

Isn't that essentially what Oss is doing here? He's laying it down on the table and saying "Whatever will be, will be". In fact, he wonders the following.

Spoiler: show
Below, Lady Sylvia was stacking with the forward purples. He imagined she planned to tumble all units in a shower of rubble, without thought for the protocols of Royal capture and execution, for bestowing dignity and honor upon a fallen enemy king in their final moments. Let soldiers and Commanders and Kings all fall together into a pile.

Had the Titans no use for such distinctions, in the Age of Hamster? No, surely they must.

Surely the new mantle of Titanic power must be carried with even greater majesty. In some important way, the disciples of Lady Firebaugh and the Arkenpliers were failing their Duty, and would pay the price.

Book 2 – Text Updates 047

To me, this sounds a whole lot like what Wanda was wondering a while back.

Spoiler: show
Where had she lost Fate's trail...

More importantly, how quickly could she find her way back?

...

One can run from Fate, but suffering follows, and escape is impossible.

No. Running toward Fate is the only way to lessen the hardship.
...

Wanda thought she had found her path over the last few score turns. But the fact that things were going so badly now indicated that she had strayed from her true course somehow.

Book 2 - Text 20

Could it be that Oss is simply feeling something similar to his Mistress? He's having doubts of his own, and expressing it in a similar way to the doubts that she's having?
Last edited by Housellama on Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Codex » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:25 pm

Roketter wrote:The turnamancer couldn't turn Ansom, but that only means that either the decrypted are unable to voluntarily switch sides or they are imunne to mind-affecting spells.

No no. The Turnamancer hasn't yet tried to turn Ansom, because she's still out of juice from the Kingworld spell. (We're still less than one turn into this story, no matter how many meatspace months have passed.) Ansom says he can't be turned, but we have only his word for that, and don't even really know whether he believes it himself or is just trying to demoralize Jillian.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Zeku » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:30 pm

MarbitChow wrote:Having read the books that GoT is based on, I'm simply going to state that you have chosen a really bad example to demonstrate the point you're trying to prove. ;)


I didn't mention the books. We're all adults here, we can see clearly the distinction between strongly developed characters and moral boundaries. In the TV show we have clear white hats and black hats. Or is murdering children too greyscale?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Jinren » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:31 pm

Roketter wrote:One question i'm not sure's been asked before... can decrypted be disbanded ?

It seems they have their own toughts, ideas and are to all matters alive except when they get dusted just like decrypted. They are very different from decroaked in that they retain their own minds to some extent while geting just a major swap on loyalties and beliefs.

However they don't seem more controlled than any of than the rest of erfworld's units via natural thinkamancy. Ossomer's been getting closer and closer to questioning Wanda with each passing moment and we don't see any magical bang from the pliers to restore his loyalty back to 100%. The turnamancer couldn't turn Ansom, but that only means that either the decrypted are unable to voluntarily switch sides or they are imunne to mind-affecting spells. That doesn't mean they can perform coups within their own side.

Perhaps if Ossomer's loyalty goes into the negatives his actions will be still controlled by Wanda in the same way she controls all of the uncroaked, and become an unwilling puppet. Still there are too many decrypted right now for her to control every single unit's actions. What if they end up raising against her ? Common sense would dictate she should disband them... but she's not the faction leader so she can't.


Decrypted come into the same category as other caster-created units like Uncroaked and Golems, right? Do we know what the answer is for those?

Anyway, this line of questioning leads to an interesting idea: in a lot of ways the Tools are overpowered, akin to cheating, but what if in this case the Pliers are the Erfworld analogue of something "removed after testing"? The original, beta-Erf version of Uncroaking which was much more powerful but had to be dummied out because the Titans couldn't resolve the loyalty issues caused by a unit being made to change Side involuntarily.

In other words, the beginnings of a hint that the Pliers, and possibly the other Tools, either don't actually work properly (or at least, as Wanda thinks they work), or are in some way incomplete, and may result in serious risks to the user in the long term.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:33 pm

the_tick_rules wrote:Meh, kinda boring update.


:P

Anyways, yeah, this update is just tease, as text updates, for some reason, are meant to be. Seriously, why? The story just isn't the same without them but whatever.

What this update does is add more weight to the Ossomer will defect theory, by showing how he might rationalize defection. And all us pub philosophers must take note, the free will vs. determinism debate is waged inside the mind of even a grunt we didn't think had the necessary brainpower. Turns out, he does. Also, that debate is stupid :P

Zeku wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:Having read the books that GoT is based on, I'm simply going to state that you have chosen a really bad example to demonstrate the point you're trying to prove. ;)


I didn't mention the books. We're all adults here, we can see clearly the distinction between strongly developed characters and moral boundaries. In the TV show we have clear white hats and black hats. Or is murdering children too greyscale?


I dunno, were they like demon spawn consuming the souls of everyone they met or something?

Also what in the where? Not all of us see HBO. Sadly.
Last edited by BLANDCorporatio on Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Geordy » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:33 pm

In my eyes you guys go too easy on dear Ossomer here. To make the long update short Ossomer does nothing but making his capture easier. To me this actually is defecting. It plays on the same level as kneeling down, crossing ones hands behind the head yelling "I surrender." Or in case you are more into interpreting symbols Ossomer obviously sees himself as the crack in the marble. And what does he think about the crack? That it still belongs to Jetstone. What else do you need to hear? Does he have to spell it out for you? "Ich bin ein Jetstoner."

Personally Im grateful that Rob is going through with the Ossomor turns back storyline. I like the guy and especially his interludes with brother Tramennis. The introduction of both back at the bridge (damn it feels like ages!) was hilarious. And see what became of foppish Tramennis - I am so proud of him, hehe.

I dislike the general agreement during the last updates that Jetstone is booped. You guys constantly stress that technically Spacerock already lies in ruins and nothing can stop that. And why is that? Only because the Jetstoners themselves are making plans to get the King the hell out of there. If back in Book 1 GK had another city left Parson certainly would have done the same with Stanley. I wonder if people would have deducted the same from this behaviour. I guess not.

Yes, there are signs that say that the tower of Spacerock is going to fall, but if you guys all are going to say the same let me be the "other" guy that says otherwise. I say Spacerock lives another turn and probably many more. And this not out of pure stubborness but out of an assessment of the current tactical situation. GK army is split in half with one half trapped in the atrium consisting of dragons preparing to siege the tower and the other half trapped in the dungeon consisting of the decrypted mainly low-level leadership plus two casters. This half is technically standing with its back to the wall (or a magical portal, that is).

Remember, Trams plan was not "Get the king the hell out of here... and then die." but "Get the king hell out of here.. and then see if the fight is worth it." Well, whatever, we will see who remains true, you Parson fanboi lot or me. :mrgreen:
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby name lips » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:14 pm

If Oss turns, like really truly turns and changes sides, then Jetstone has their Heir back, right?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby coyotenose » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:19 pm

From the update:
Lord Ace Hardware, the Dollamancer, was speaking animatedly to the group.


"Animatedly", brilliant. Seeing this one word made me realize that Ace Hardware's personality is a function of his caster type. He's all about energy and movement. Just brilliant.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby GaryThunder » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:38 pm

the_tick_rules wrote:Meh, kinda boring update.


*monocle flies off in disbelief*

Boring? Boring? Rob can take a character on the brink of stepping an inch or two to the ground and make it nail-biting.

I really feel terrible for Ossomer, though. He has nowhere to turn to, nothing to do. Nothing that he even really could be doing...At least if he could fight he would be able to either redeem himself through valor (in his eyes, anyway) or die, but he's just forced to sit up there and watch the army that killed him do the same thing to his city. He's stretched nearly to his breaking point, because he has no outlet, nothing...except this. Ossomer isn't specifically rebelling against the 'Pliers or showing shades of loyalty to his old side or anything, I don't think. It's just that he has only one option available to him, and things have progressed to the point that he almost has no choice but to do it - and either way it ends up, at least he'll have done something.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby BCCroaker » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:52 pm

He may still be heir without turning - it's canon that it's possible. I'm still betting that as Slately dies and he he inherits, the reaction to becoming king will break Wandas control.
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name lips wrote:If Oss turns, like really truly turns and changes sides, then Jetstone has their Heir back, right?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby derfy » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:53 pm

Codex wrote:
Roketter wrote:The turnamancer couldn't turn Ansom, but that only means that either the decrypted are unable to voluntarily switch sides or they are imunne to mind-affecting spells.

No no. The Turnamancer hasn't yet tried to turn Ansom, because she's still out of juice from the Kingworld spell.


I thought she tried already.
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