Book 2 - Text Updates 047

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Zeku » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:12 pm

So what does the misshapen tile "signify?"

Ossomer himself, out of place, but still fulfilling a role in the balance of power?
His expanding perception of Titanic will, that can now tolerate localized imperfection?
Or perhaps he now sees, as Slately does, that something unremarkable or imperfect can be the true sign of Royalty, as he observes in the same update?


I don't think Ossomer is suicidal, at all. I think we're just seeing that while Ossomer is compelled to obey Wanda, this is at odds with his own personality. He places the trappings and Signamancy of Royalty above most other considerations, and will gravitate towards those things in all of his short-term decisions. He's not really considering letting Slately croak him, (this is not what is actually happening) he's just saying "If they manage to kamikaze me, that will confirm the things I believe about Royalty." This is an emotional internal monologue in a moment of weakness, it's not his life mission statement.


-About science answering moral questions, the most mind-boggling example to me is the Prisoner's Dilemma, where computer simulations show that cooperation is logically advantageous, even if each simulation is just attempting to do what is best for itself, with zero consideration for the other simulations.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Ominous » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:13 pm

MarbitChow wrote:In that case, you might be interested in this: Science can answer moral questions. I personally think that you're wrong - there are quantifiable, objective moral systems - but we've still got a long way to go to pin them down, and morality is just fun to discuss no matter what your belief.


There's also Imperfect Oracle: The Epistemic and Moral Authority of Science by Theodore Brown. Yes, science can be used to answer moral questions. Unfortunately you run headlong into a problem if a society doesn't recognize science as a viable institution, and we fall back into the problem of subjective morality. Who are you to say that their societal norms are flawed? If you claim that you have a right to impose your moral system on them because it's the "right" system thanks to it being based on science, you've become no better than any other philosophy or religion forcing conversion.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Ominous wrote:If you couldn't tell, I'm a moral relativist/subjectivist. Any attempt to argue for an objective, absolute moral system is laughable to me


It's good you feel that way, because I find moral relativists laughable. So at least we're on mutual terms.

Fantastic. At least we can be confident that there'll be plenty of laughter on both sides.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Nice link MarbitChow, I'll definitely check it out, but don't feed the twoll. S/He doesn't want an argument, they explicitly stated, so offer none. ;)

I'm not a troll. A troll wouldn't have stated that the argument was pointless due to values dissonance between the participants. They'd continue without giving you fair warning. Honestly, if you wish to continue discussing morality, let's start a new thread, so as not to derail this one as much as we have. The same goes for discussing "A Game of Thrones."

EDIT:
Zeku wrote:-About science answering moral questions, the most mind-boggling example to me is the Prisoner's Dilemma, where computer simulations show that cooperation is logically advantageous, even if each simulation is just attempting to do what is best for itself, with zero consideration for the other simulations.

That's only in scenarios where the Prisoner's Dilemma is repeated and the players are allowed to remember past outcomes, which is closest to the international system as viewed by the international relations discipline. Other scenarios generate different outcomes.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:20 pm

Ominous wrote:I'm not a troll. A troll wouldn't have stated that the argument was pointless due to values dissonance between the participants. They'd continue without giving you fair warning. Honestly, if you wish to continue discussing morality, let's start a new thread, so as not to derail this one as much as we have. The same goes for discussing "A Game of Thrones."


So suddenly you are interested, as evidenced by your reply to MarbitChow, and this invitation, to me.

Nah, I still think you're just trying to be provocative. Start another thread though and I might explain why I think moral relativism is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

irt. MarbitChow:

Saw the TED talk by Harris.

Now, I'm not sure I buy completely into his scientism. Science is about "is" and "might be"; once we know what we want/need, it's the best thing to take us there. So what do we want/need?

That said, most of his points are things I agree with.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Ominous » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:27 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:So suddenly you are interested, as evidenced by your reply to MarbitChow, and this invitation, to me.


I never said that I wasn't interested, only that values dissonance renders the debate moot. It's much like having die-hard capitalists and socialists argue with one another. It's amusing to watch from outside the argument, but those participating don't really get anywhere. I'm fine with discussing morality. Just don't come into the discussion expecting any sudden conversion on my part to your way of thinking .
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Jinren » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:30 pm

CaptC wrote:Parson has set the air forces in a distributed fashion, such that a really concentrated, powerful attack can pick the archons apart a section at a time. Now note, Trammenis is on his way to the top of the tower with a stack of knights, too! Put those elite troopers on unipegataurs, attack the airspace, stay in a powerful concentrated force and WIN. Dittomancer to double the effects of leadership and elite troop stats, Healomancer keeping units alive to benefit from the doubling, combined with Ace's technological wizardry (pun intended) - and they just might win. It just gets better if they take out Ossomer's leadership by capturing or croaking him first.


The whole point of distributing the archons is to prevent a concentrated, powerful attack from working. The unipegataurs have to waste time zigzagging around the airspace, because the archons are Fooling, and when they do hit some they'll be under ranged fire from eight or nine different positions at once. Then they have to repeat this once they defeat each ministack. The distribution is very much in favour of the archons.

It's certainly possible that Jetstone could defeat them, but they'd probably be throwing away all of their unipegataurs and elite knights in the process. And at the moment they probably want to reserve those unipegataurs for escaping.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby CaptC » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:32 pm

Ominous wrote:I'm fine with discussing morality.


I'm not, unless it's related to the topic at hand, which is, and I quote: "Book 2 - Text Updates 047".

I'm all in favor of one of you starting additional threads for your digressions.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby CaptC » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:41 pm

Jinren wrote:
The whole point of distributing the archons is to prevent a concentrated, powerful attack from working. The unipegataurs have to waste time zigzagging around the airspace, because the archons are Fooling, and when they do hit some they'll be under ranged fire from eight or nine different positions at once. Then they have to repeat this once they defeat each ministack. The distribution is very much in favour of the archons.


Nope. The Archons are set up this way to prevent the tower from shooting them down easily. It's a poor defensive situation if you are attacked directly. The only reason Parson set them up this way is that he was thought the small Spacerock airforce can't do anything, so he countered the obvious threat. Parson just didn't consider Ossamer's depression and didn't know a jetpack was possible.

Besides, Spacerock HAS to get a turnaround sometime soon. Otherwise, there's no DRAMA left. It's just a GK stompfest. I may not have predicted the exact details, but Spacerock's fortunes are going to have to turn up, at least temporarily.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:52 pm

CaptC wrote:Besides, Spacerock HAS to get a turnaround sometime soon. Otherwise, there's no DRAMA left. It's just a GK stompfest. I may not have predicted the exact details, but Spacerock's fortunes are going to have to turn up, at least temporarily.


Quite right. It was DRAMA that made Slately consider self-croaking. Otherwise, he could have just got away.

Me, I'm thinking something will go wrong in the MK. I still suspect the existence of a Dirtamancer Mole among the GMtTA.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby MarbitChow » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:11 pm

CaptC wrote:
Ominous wrote:I'm fine with discussing morality.


I'm not, unless it's related to the topic at hand, which is, and I quote: "Book 2 - Text Updates 047".
I'm all in favor of one of you starting additional threads for your digressions.

We're on Page 5 of the thread. According to Canon, that means everything of interest about the update has already been said. :D
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:15 pm

rcjara wrote:
No... I think the king is going in for the kill. He's on desperation tactic now. Don can't help him, but the bounty can. Kill ossamer, nuke as many archons as they can. If it's enough, declare Trem Heir.


They don't even have to kill a whole bunch of archons. They just have to capture one, and with the archons all spread out, that seems like the best chance.

I got the impression that even without leadership 27 archons would still kick jetstone's airforce to titans come.


I believe we have only seen archons kick with juice. If juice was spent on foolamancy is there any left?

I am also thinking that Charly might just give (ahem... loan) the schmuckers. Jetstone was one of his best clients.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby teratorn » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:23 pm

CaptC wrote:Nope. The Archons are set up this way to prevent the tower from shooting them down easily. It's a poor defensive situation if you are attacked directly. The only reason Parson set them up this way is that he was thought the small Spacerock airforce can't do anything, so he countered the obvious threat. Parson just didn't consider Ossamer's depression and didn't know a jetpack was possible.


There's also the fact that it doesn't make sense for Jetstone to attack the archons (Parson doesn't know about the bounty). He'll immediately see Charlie's hand in this.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Dr Pepper » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:31 pm

Hmm. Oss and Slately are about to give each other legendary status.
Read, like there won't be a movie
Game, like the die rolls don't matter
Filk, like everyone is tone deaf anyway

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby MichaelR138 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:38 pm

El_Chupacabra wrote:[Said something stupid here, deleted]....

I have a thought about what's happening next, which does not involve Ossomer "Turning" but still has Ossomer risking violating Erf Rules in order to preserve what he believes to be a Titanic Mandate regarding the honorable end to a Royal or Commander:

Spoiler: show
Ossomer decides he must risk an Erfworld "Fall" in order to reach enemy territory and Capture/Kill the Royals as befitting his honor. He steps off -- onto that odd tile -- and either autosplats or survives unscathed. IF he survives, the Casters try to protect Sir Squatty (can't remember his name right now) and Ossomer carves up a few of them, including Ace. He may actually capture/croak the King himself.

To me, this would be most in line with Ossomer honoring Toolism as part of his change while still being in touch with his Honor Duties. If he Autosplats, it was the Titan's will. If he lands, he gets a chance to defeat the Commanders and Royalty the "honorable" way. It also would mean more conflict with the others, as he would be technically violating orders.

IF he autosplats, I hope it's done hilariously. I could see one frame being him gently stepping down on the ground; his toe barely touches in the next frame, and the third features him asploding into a big dust cloud as the stunned Commanders and King look on.


Of course, I suck at predictions.


To start with, since you cannot fall laterally over a rail and Oss cannot cross the boundary between himself and the balcony off turn, the rest of your predicition is invalid because it violates the rules of Erf in a way that cannot be easily overcome if at all, and certainly not by a hidebound side of beef that is moping rather then thinking anyway.

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby MichaelR138 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:48 pm

If the third option happens, it's a whole 'nother ball game. The bounty for 27 archons killed or captured fixes Spacerock's immediate financial issues, and with control of the skies I'd bet Trammenis decides they can retake the city. That lets this fight keep going, instead of having Spacerock retreat, and then another long setup for yet another capital city fight somewhere else.

Which will in turn increase the drama when Parson steps out of the Magic Kingdom portal. Instead of walking into an all but inevitable victory, he's gonna have to pull GK's chestnuts out of the fire.

As an aside, such a turnaround fixes Don King's problems, too. With a completely discredited Caesar, the other Transylvito warlords are going to be very shy of future "respectful" rebellions.[/quote]

I cannot see it, no way Slately has changed enough to trust Charlie on the bounty. Also, it would only take a second for the ARchons to restack, and with Slately as a target in their environment, he lasts just a second or two longer. One shockamancy bolt likely kills an unleveled King with no combat experience. Even if your plan were to work, it does not address the dropping of Jenga tower and the loss of all the ground forces to GK when they are fighting them while the air support has to stay out of the fight because the dwagons would crush them at close range. It doesn't make good tactical sense to me to risk your one weak asset in a frontal assault on flying units in their sphere on an untested magic devise. Even if a shock to Slately woudln't kill him, if it disrupts the jetpack, he still dies from the fall. Too easy of a win for GK and too stupid for Tram to ever allow unless he steals the idiot ball from Don King.

And even if Jetstone survives, it does not redeem Don King from turns and turns of poor decisions and leading his side to near ruin.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby kagato23 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:26 pm

MichaelR138 wrote:If the third option happens, it's a whole 'nother ball game. The bounty for 27 archons killed or captured fixes Spacerock's immediate financial issues, and with control of the skies I'd bet Trammenis decides they can retake the city. That lets this fight keep going, instead of having Spacerock retreat, and then another long setup for yet another capital city fight somewhere else.

Which will in turn increase the drama when Parson steps out of the Magic Kingdom portal. Instead of walking into an all but inevitable victory, he's gonna have to pull GK's chestnuts out of the fire.

As an aside, such a turnaround fixes Don King's problems, too. With a completely discredited Caesar, the other Transylvito warlords are going to be very shy of future "respectful" rebellions.


I cannot see it, no way Slately has changed enough to trust Charlie on the bounty. Also, it would only take a second for the ARchons to restack, and with Slately as a target in their environment, he lasts just a second or two longer. One shockamancy bolt likely kills an unleveled King with no combat experience. Even if your plan were to work, it does not address the dropping of Jenga tower and the loss of all the ground forces to GK when they are fighting them while the air support has to stay out of the fight because the dwagons would crush them at close range. It doesn't make good tactical sense to me to risk your one weak asset in a frontal assault on flying units in their sphere on an untested magic devise. Even if a shock to Slately woudln't kill him, if it disrupts the jetpack, he still dies from the fall. Too easy of a win for GK and too stupid for Tram to ever allow unless he steals the idiot ball from Don King.

And even if Jetstone survives, it does not redeem Don King from turns and turns of poor decisions and leading his side to near ruin.[/quote]

Slately has admitted Charlie made a compelling case about Lord Hamster. He's at least willing to listen to the man now. Trust him? Not likely. But you also have another thing to consider: He's desperate and as far as he's concerned booped anyway. Might be worth chancing it if you can't think of any other way.

But what I'm unsure about is if it can be done. Does charlie have a hat? I assume the gem would have been directly transported, since nobody's going through the portal right now.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby CaptC » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:12 pm

teratorn wrote:
CaptC wrote:Nope. The Archons are set up this way to prevent the tower from shooting them down easily. It's a poor defensive situation if you are attacked directly. The only reason Parson set them up this way is that he was thought the small Spacerock airforce can't do anything, so he countered the obvious threat. Parson just didn't consider Ossamer's depression and didn't know a jetpack was possible.


There's also the fact that it doesn't make sense for Jetstone to attack the archons (Parson doesn't know about the bounty). He'll immediately see Charlie's hand in this.


Very true, excellent point. I'm not so sure Parson will immediately see Charlie behind it, but if he does, it would spark an interesting conversation between Parson and Charlie. I always enjoy when they spar with each other.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby GaryThunder » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:30 pm

Ominous wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:So suddenly you are interested, as evidenced by your reply to MarbitChow, and this invitation, to me.


I never said that I wasn't interested, only that values dissonance renders the debate moot. It's much like having die-hard capitalists and socialists argue with one another. It's amusing to watch from outside the argument, but those participating don't really get anywhere. I'm fine with discussing morality. Just don't come into the discussion expecting any sudden conversion on my part to your way of thinking .

Incidentally, this is why I find being a "die-hard" anything is one of the worst decisions that a person can make. The moment you close your mind to even the possibility of the other viewpoint being right, you're pretty much automatically wrong (opinion-wise, anyway, you can be pretty damn sure of things like physics).

Ossomer decides he must risk an Erfworld "Fall" in order to reach enemy territory and Capture/Kill the Royals as befitting his honor. He steps off -- onto that odd tile -- and either autosplats or survives unscathed. IF he survives, the Casters try to protect Sir Squatty (can't remember his name right now) and Ossomer carves up a few of them, including Ace. He may actually capture/croak the King himself.

To me, this would be most in line with Ossomer honoring Toolism as part of his change while still being in touch with his Honor Duties. If he Autosplats, it was the Titan's will. If he lands, he gets a chance to defeat the Commanders and Royalty the "honorable" way. It also would mean more conflict with the others, as he would be technically violating orders.

IF he autosplats, I hope it's done hilariously. I could see one frame being him gently stepping down on the ground; his toe barely touches in the next frame, and the third features him asploding into a big dust cloud as the stunned Commanders and King look on.


Yes! Yes, this exactly! Why has nobody else perceived this? Ossomer is making the only choice he can, and he is very explicitly leaving everything else up to the Titans. If he dies, he dies. If he lands, he attacks. He doesn't seem to even care which one happens anymore.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby CaptC » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:39 pm

MichaelR138 wrote:And even if Jetstone survives, it does not redeem Don King from turns and turns of poor decisions and leading his side to near ruin.


Leaders know they are only as good as their last big decision. Caesar said, "Hey guys, let's risk being disbanded because Don King's going to do something stupid." If you are a Transylvitian warlord, and Jetstone turns the tables on GK (showing that Don King was right), then you may very well think to yourself: "I could have been ended because I listened to Caesar's horrible judgement call."

You will think twice about further rebellion. Even if you think Don King is doing a bad job, your only alternative hasn't shown he can do better. Better the idiot you know...
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby CelebrenIthil » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:57 pm

Atomic wrote:THEN AGAIN, I'm not sure Undead Prince is watching the same show as everybody else. I'm not excusing his remark, but it isn't hard to look up Kit Harrington on google. Daaaang. That boy is far from butt-ugly.

Even if one can argue about how ugliness/attractiveness is subjective, tv/movies tend to cast people that are rather more physically attractive than not. It ends up that the Hound is not too disfigured, Illyrio is not morbidly obese at all and I have a sinking suspicion that if the show ever gets to the point we meet Brienne of Tharth, she will be very far from being "larger, stronger and uglier than most men" with an horse face. Oh well! :lol:
(to their credit it's hard enough to cast someone that perfectly fits a character description, "ugly" people probably figured then haven't much chance to get an acting career and so are not pushing at the door either... Life is unfair.)

Geordy wrote:
CelebrenIthil wrote:Is it just me or the casters crowding around King Slately on the image almost seem posed like they might be equipping him with the jetpack?
I'm straining my eyes but I can't tell anything for sure.... Hmm...


Oh boy. I wonder why nobody has commented on this already. Yes, the dittomancer isnt just his usual self, standing around adding spiffy remarks twice from time to time - he is actually stretching forth his arms and fiddling with something behind the Kings back. The animatedly given speech of Lord Ace could be instructions for Slately on how to use that thing properly.

But on the other hand Ossomer described how the King turned his back on him. If he would be wearing the jetpack by then Ossomer surely would have mentioned it.


Good thinking! Now you say it, I'd be surprised if Ossomer was so preoccupied he wouldn't notice his father wearing some weird contraption to his back.
But we do not know if the picture happens sometime during the text update or say, right at the end. Maybe he did all of that and now they are equipping him with the jetpack as the narrative closes.
...so mysterious!
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Beeskee » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:15 pm

I'm very interested in the whole "missing flower" thing on Ossomer's raiment - does it Signify something? I hope it wasn't just an accident. Or, if it was, that the author retcons it into something meaningful. ;)


Slately could certainly croak or capture Ossomer. With orlies and unmounted unipegtaurs in screening stacks, they could block or absorb the Archon's attacks long enough. Especially given Ossomer's willingness to engage in poor strategy as much as possible to 'help' them. Also, Slately doesn't have to lead the attack himself, his bonus can't be that great, unless there's some kind of additional bonus given to rulers who lead an attack that we never heard mentioned. (CW bonus, yes, of course, but no ruler bonus that we heard of) So no real risk if he has an expendable warlord to use.

Tho I like to think Parson would realize some of what he is participating in once he is on the ground, and be given an opportunity to 'give back' Slately's sons by ordering them to switch sides back to Jetstone. I hope he tests it on another decrypted warlord first tho before trying on one of the royal sons.
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