Book 2 – Page 60

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Re: Book 2 – Page 60

Postby WallySumGai » Fri May 13, 2011 4:30 am

Feyrauth wrote:
A Predictamancer wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:Chewie could very easily interpret "don't work for non-royals" to be equivalent to "work against non-royals". If a non-royal pays him well to attack another non-royal, especially one breaking the neutrality of the MK, it seems like it could easily fall into enough of a gray area to satisfy his oath.

But this means that the GMtTA will open fire on Chewie to protect Parson, and the neutrality of the MK will be immediately shattered. Mages are going to take sides. And most, I'll wager, will initially side against GK, based on their previous reactions (cutting of healing scrolls, giving Sizemore the cold shoulder, etc.)


We have a winner.

The magic kingdom must break before there is peace. Those in service to Charlie, and those in service to the Great Minds.


While I agree that big things are going to happen in the MK very shortly, I'm not sure where everyone is coming up with this "open fire/mage civil war" stuff. Think about what we know of the disciplines. Sizemore is noted repeatedly as being a little strange for taking an interest in disciplines beyond his own. The implication is that most casters specialize, and stay within that specialization whenever possible.

Now think about the forces who want Parson to succeed. You have Janis's Hippiemancers, one or more Predictamancers, and a whole bunch of Thinkamancers. A powerful group to be sure, but not especially noted for their raw firepower. I think it's far more likely that we're about to see some truly impressive mind-taking.

"OMG a warlord!" *Jedi Hand Wave* "What Warlord? Go about your business"
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Re: Book 2 – Page 60

Postby Utoryo » Fri May 13, 2011 9:13 am

Just a random unlikely thought: what if Charlie had hidden forces in the battlefield and somehow managed to do a second KingWorld? Then it would be Charlie's turn, and he could attack the city to capture Parson. Then again, KingWorld was probably a 3-caster spell and not a scroll, and Parson could flee through the MK again, so I'm not sure how that'd work...

Also it's noteworthy that there will still be stair upwards to the Portal, so I don't see how Parson will manage to get through without talking with Janis and Marie.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 60

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri May 13, 2011 9:25 am

Utoryo wrote:Just a random unlikely thought: what if Charlie had hidden forces in the battlefield and somehow managed to do a second


No.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 60

Postby drachefly » Fri May 13, 2011 10:03 am

lawl.

I think the Jedi handwave is going to be making a big appearance here.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 60

Postby MichaelR138 » Fri May 13, 2011 11:42 am

Feyrauth wrote:
A Predictamancer wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:Chewie could very easily interpret "don't work for non-royals" to be equivalent to "work against non-royals". If a non-royal pays him well to attack another non-royal, especially one breaking the neutrality of the MK, it seems like it could easily fall into enough of a gray area to satisfy his oath.

But this means that the GMtTA will open fire on Chewie to protect Parson, and the neutrality of the MK will be immediately shattered. Mages are going to take sides. And most, I'll wager, will initially side against GK, based on their previous reactions (cutting of healing scrolls, giving Sizemore the cold shoulder, etc.)


We have a winner.

The magic kingdom must break before there is peace. Those in service to Charlie, and those in service to the Great Minds.


One minor change. Instead of "If a non-royal pays him well to attack another non-royal", as has been pointed out Charlie probably didn't pay him. It has been repeatedly said Charlie could just drop the information to Jeftichew, that way Jeftichew is not "working for a non-royal". I would modify that to suggest Charlie probably got Jeftichew/Bea's leftover forces to pay *him* for the information somehow, whether cash or services owed! Charlie doesn't do anything for free, and Jeftichew would certainly see "buying information from a non-royal" differently to "working for a non-royal".


I really have the feeling that such pledges given by units to their leaders are binding and do not allow for any wiggle room. Vanna did not work for Charlie, she only allowed him to help with a spell she was ordered to cast by her current ruler. I do not see another patsy out there that would be willing to allow Charlie to use them as a buffer for him to manipulate Jeffichew. Now, it is possible that Jeffichew the fairy Godmother and some other of the casters that seem to be just hanging out in Portal Park are the new security force implemented after the end of book 1, but I do not see how this can have Charlie's hand in what is happening in the MK.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 60

Postby Atomic » Fri May 13, 2011 2:51 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Utoryo wrote:Just a random unlikely thought: what if Charlie had hidden forces in the battlefield and somehow managed to do a second


No.

LOL.

As hilarious as that sounds, it'd take more than one Kingworld to make it Charlie's turn again.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 60

Postby Utoryo » Fri May 13, 2011 3:04 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Utoryo wrote:Just a random unlikely thought: what if Charlie had hidden forces in the battlefield and somehow managed to do a second


No.
Hahahah. Oh gosh, you're right, that would be pretty awful. Well... at least this was worth it for your response ;)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 60

Postby Dr Pepper » Fri May 13, 2011 4:55 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Utoryo wrote:Just a random unlikely thought: what if Charlie had hidden forces in the battlefield and somehow managed to do a second


No.


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Re: Book 2 – Page 60

Postby Housellama » Sun May 15, 2011 10:21 pm

Balerion wrote:Just took a look at the forums for the first time and figured i would jump in :D

To me, it looks more like Charlie is going after Wanda specifically, and hasn't changed his mind with regard to Parson. His recent conversation with Jillian, and his manipulation of events to try and kill Ansom, were both geared toward getting her to go back and finish off Wanda by removing complications. Note also that the plan they used to attack Spacerock could have been predicted pretty easily given the situation (it was implied to be their only real shot), and the trap sprung left Wanda particularly in a really bad spot.

Charlie being heavily focused on Wanda makes sense to me. In the status quo, pre-decrypting, he was unconditionally in charge, extorting clients however he wanted with them unable to do anything in response. He has shown great interest in getting his hands on a decrypted archon, with it implied that its because he wants to figure out what exactly they are. And its the decrypted that have upset the balance of things, not Parson. It's Ansom's battle strategies that have been used for GK in their current conquest spree, and while a good commander, he wasn't a game-breaker (Parson crushed him after all). But with Wanda, we have a Tool user who could rival him in power, or perhaps surpass him if left unchecked. His current scheming, even willing to invest his own cash into supporting a caster to pull it off, make most sense to me interpreted in that light.


Yes. This. Charlie wants Wanda off the board more than he wants Parson under his control.

Pre-Pliers, Parson was the destabilizing element. However, Parson was an element that could be captured and/or converted. Therefore, Charlie's goal was to capture or covert him, to strengthen his own position. Now however, Wanda is a MUCH greater threat. And since she is Attuned, she is a player in her own right. Parson is smart, but he's just a warlord. In Erfword terms, he's nothing all that special. Wanda is a Caster AND she's Attuned to the Arkenpliers. That makes her a much bigger deal. In theory, she could lead the Decrypted all by herself as a barbarian. She doesn't NEED a side behind her to be a threat. Long as she has the 'Pliers, her very existence represents a threat to Charlie.

Now, Charlie's a smart guy. He would have done all the math on this a long time ago. Unfortunately, the things that make Wanda such a huge threat also make her a very hard target. Never mind the fact that she has GK behind her and the #2 guy on Charlie's list on call. So yes, Parson is something that Charlie wants, but he's got bigger problems. However, if he can grab Parson as a target of opportunity, you can bet he's going to take a shot at it. If for no other reason than to weaken his primary target. Even if Parson is killed, he still benefits from it by removing Wanda's chief strategist.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

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Re: Book 2 – Page 60

Postby Oberon » Sun May 15, 2011 10:54 pm

Housellama wrote:Charlie doesn't want[Parson] dead. In descending order of desirability, Charlie wants Parson to choose to turn, turned by force in the field, captured alive and returned to Charlescomm, incapacitated and returned to Charlescomm and last and definitely least, killed. The secondary goal is the mathamancy bracer, but that's a lesser goal than the acquisition of Parson, the only man whose actually managed to hit Charlie where it counts and get away with it. Why destroy a perfectly good asset when you can turn it to your favor? Especially one as unique and valuable as Parson.
Actually, even in TBfGK, Charlie wanted the bracer first. He was willing to offer the smart warlord attached to it a job, but he was not at all adverse to picking it up off of Parson's corpse. Kinko's, on the other hand, offered free local faxes...
nth wrote:
Housellama wrote:Charlie doesn't want him dead. In descending order of desirability, Charlie wants Parson to choose to turn, turned by force in the field, captured alive and returned to Charlescomm, incapacitated and returned to Charlescomm and last and definitely least, killed. The secondary goal is the mathamancy bracer, but that's a lesser goal than the acquisition of Parson, the only man whose actually managed to hit Charlie where it counts and get away with it. Why destroy a perfectly good asset when you can turn it to your favor? Especially one as unique and valuable as Parson.


I would have agreed with you right up until the end of book one.

Since the apocalypse Parson released to end TBfGK -- and especially in light of the urgency of Charlie's conversations with Tramennis and Jillian -- I think there's a case to be made that Charlie has begun to recognize just how unpredictably dangerous and dangerously unpredictable Parson might be, even on his side.
Agreed. The loss/decrypting of his archons, and his overall helplessness to change the course of events i.e.
Charlie "We can still deal!"
Parson: "Sorry, Charlie."
Formerly dormant volcano: "BOOM!"

All of the above have seemed to change Charlies appreciation for just how well he was played by Parson, and just how dangerous Parson can be. In TBfGK, Charlie seemed to have a respect for Parson which was based on Parson not losing as fast as he should have by all estimations of the forces arrayed against him. That respect was well tempered by the fact that Charlie also seemed to think that he could play Parson just like he was playing Ansom. Charlie learned "the very hard way" that he was the one being played all along, and it was a huge wake up call for him.
Utoryo wrote:Just a random unlikely thought: what if Charlie had hidden forces in the battlefield and somehow managed to do a second KingWorld?
Please do not ever mention that abomination again. :twisted:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 60

Postby mmooneybsa » Mon May 16, 2011 1:07 pm

Housellama wrote:Charlie doesn't want him dead. In descending order of desirability, Charlie wants Parson to choose to turn, turned by force in the field, captured alive and returned to Charlescomm, incapacitated and returned to Charlescomm and last and definitely least, killed. The secondary goal is the mathamancy bracer, but that's a lesser goal than the acquisition of Parson, the only man whose actually managed to hit Charlie where it counts and get away with it. Why destroy a perfectly good asset when you can turn it to your favor? Especially one as unique and valuable as Parson.


Charlie very clearly stated in book 1 page 105 that the mathamancy bracer was priority, and turning/capturing Parson was secondary.

CharlsNChrg: They can have it! But I do want that Mathamancy artifact before they can grab it.
CharlsNChrg: I'd also like the smart Warlord that comes with it, but I'll pry it from his remains if I must. :)


This is not the last time Charlie threatened to kill Parson. There has been nothing in the comic to suggest this priority has changed. By now Charlie realizes Parson will not choose to turn, as Parson already rejected this offer under the most likely circumstances that would convince him to do so.

And, Charlie's number 1 priority is: Remove Parson as a threat.
You have listed methods, of which killing him is the easiest.

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Edit: Just realized Oberon beat me to it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 60

Postby DevilDan » Mon May 16, 2011 1:48 pm

Is Parson "breaking" warfare on Erf or is he just turning everyone into more effective and imaginative tacticians and strategists? To be fair, if the "rules" break down (meaning their own rules of propriety, courtesy, and honor) then war could become so brutal and ugly that it would be considered less palatable and ennobling.
They could not possibly win. Every man knew this with certainty, and lo it was glorious.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 60

Postby ftl » Mon May 16, 2011 5:44 pm

DevilDan wrote:Is Parson "breaking" warfare on Erf or is he just turning everyone into more effective and imaginative tacticians and strategists? To be fair, if the "rules" break down (meaning their own rules of propriety, courtesy, and honor) then war could become so brutal and ugly that it would be considered less palatable and ennobling.


Breaking warfare, I think.

It used to be a nice orderly contest - royal sides would pick off each others border cities, demand tributes and threaten each other, casters would aggregate in their little bubble magic kingdom.

Parson's warring differently. GK has hit straight for the heart - go for Spacerock, the side falls. Lay traps to kill leaders. Now, abuse the MK. If things keep going as they are going now, war will never be the same. Someone who's at war with Parson doesn't get to think "well, he'll take a few of my border cities and I'll pay him a tribute and he'll go away, and maybe in a few hundred turns maybe I'll do the same to him." No, someone at war with Parson thinks "I have to croak him or else I and my whole side and everyone I ever loved will burn."

That's a qualitative difference - not just "better" warfare, but with much higher stakes, going for the jugular.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 60

Postby gameboy1234 » Mon May 16, 2011 10:31 pm

This is potentially HUGELY spoilerific, but regarding how Parson will break things:

Spoiler: show
I think that Charlie, like Parson, is a Titan and "created" his own side. Remember when Parson recognized GK when he first was summoned? The caldera, the twisty maze of tunnels underneath? It was all the same as his game he had been working one.

Now think of Charlie: he's the smartest guy there is, back up by a powerful artifact that lets him do almost anything. And his side's forces are slavishly loyal, fashion model hot airline stewardesses. Come on, that's got to be some geek's fantasy world, right? He had to have created that side as a fantasy, and then was sucked into it.

So Charlie is a geek and a Titan like Parson, and Charlie is playing Erfworld because it's a fun escape. Parson doesn't have to defeat Charlie, like conquer him. He just needs to break enough of Charlie's "toy" -- Erfworld -- so that it's not fun anymore, and Charlie quits. And yes, I think Charlie is the "big bad" of Erfworld, the guy who makes everything happen, especially the war, and when Charlie goes it'll all be different. I'm not sure in what way it'll be different. Erfworld might cease to exist, or it might become all peaceful, or some other reason to fight will emerge, but it will be different.

OK, enough rambling.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 60

Postby heyduck » Mon May 16, 2011 10:39 pm

ftl wrote:
Breaking warfare, I think.

It used to be a nice orderly contest - royal sides would pick off each others border cities, demand tributes and threaten each other, casters would aggregate in their little bubble magic kingdom.

Parson's warring differently. GK has hit straight for the heart - go for Spacerock, the side falls. Lay traps to kill leaders. Now, abuse the MK. If things keep going as they are going now, war will never be the same. Someone who's at war with Parson doesn't get to think "well, he'll take a few of my border cities and I'll pay him a tribute and he'll go away, and maybe in a few hundred turns maybe I'll do the same to him." No, someone at war with Parson thinks "I have to croak him or else I and my whole side and everyone I ever loved will burn."

That's a qualitative difference - not just "better" warfare, but with much higher stakes, going for the jugular.


That's not exactly true, the only reason Transylvito has not just gone for the juglar (against carpool) is because their moneymancer says it would cost too much or something. Jetstone killed off Spacerock, and Haggar does not seem in the least bit honorable and would totally have attacked Spacerock and end Jetstone while they were weakened if charlie had not come. Parson is breaking warfare by power gaming and using the rules of erfworld against it by abusing mechanics, how will erfworld react when he abuses enough rules? Well, I guess we will have to find out.
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