Book 2 – Page 62

[Smoker]

As soon as Charlie appears to be taking a side, and not just acting as a disinterested and neutral resource, other sides will stop using him (causing him to lose revenue) and may actually attack. Charlie knows that if enough sides team up against him, he's still toast. Even grabbing all of those nice toys from GK doesn't guarantee him a win against overwhelming odds, and the more menacing he appears, the more likely people team up against him. He's tolerated now because he only has 1 arkentool, and he uses it to assist everyone equally. He won't abandon his current strategy of avoiding attention and acting helpful until it's too late for anyone to stop him.

I understand the whole neutrality thing, but there's a few things to consider:
1) He's already bending his own rules: Free advice to JS, a free caster to FAQ, help (I assume free) in FAQ taking the Western Giants, forcing Haggar to sacrifice their own men... I understand this is all rather hush-hush, but its worth mentioning.
2) Charlie is a sneaky bastard. If he had to, he could ask FAQ to hire him for 1 Shmucker. Nobody else needs to know the details of the contract - for all they know FAQ is paying 5000 Shmuckers a turn for the rest of time. There are ways for Charlie to play his hand as strongly as he likes, if he really wants to.
3) Almost everyone who knows about GK wants them dead. I dont think many people are going to cry foul at Charlie taking down the decryption snowball, even if it was a break in his SOP (but see point 2).

But yeah, like I said, I know what you mean about neutrality, and that and fear of Parson are the only two reasons Charlie is sticking to the background. All I'm saying is that if this "puppet master" thing goes on much longer, I'm gonna change my opinion of Charlie.

You're confusing "defeat GK" with "defeat Parson".

GK may be the strongest side in the current conflict (which probably makes them the strongest side on Erfworld at the moment), but they're not invincible. Had Parson not intervened, the most recent encounter would have ended in total defeat of their expeditionary force. In other words, the combined forces of the RCC2 are still quite capable of matching GK on paper

Exactly, and the tables were turned because Charlie helped out with Kingworld. Parson was nowhere near the conflict, so if Charlie is helping to defeat Wanda and the dwagons then he's trying to defeat GK.

It's Parson who is the one who can show up to a fight and not only perfectly calculate but also completely reverse the odds in a single movement, which 1) is a skill Charlie would very much like to control and 2) is the threat to his continued business as long as he doesn't. Without him, GK is just a large army, nowhere near large enough to risk permanently affecting the balance of power. Attacking GK only makes sense if it's part of an attack on Parson as the primary target.

Again I point to Kingworld, and the other help Charlie has given FAQ - this had little to do with Parson. But really it doesn't matter if his target is Parson or the 'pliers or GK as a whole - Ending Stanley's life solves his problem regardless, and I hereby speculate that its possible for Charlie to do it - especially with the elite GK units all at Spacerock.

Whichever way you look at it: Charlie would benefit from ending GK. Charlie has tried to damage GK in a number of ways through others. Charlie should probably try a more direct approach.

[Sallo]

This should be pretty interesting.
The Carnymancer was originally from Uniroyal. Same as Vanna the Turnamancer.
I wonder if this could be some sweet revenge for Queen Bea?

[gameboy1234]

Surely by now Charlie must realise that the best and possibly only way to defeat GK is to send a friggen Zerg-rush of Archons along with the finest elite forces of every side you can bribe/threaten/ally with

I think you've hit a possible plot hole here. Possibly Charlie's Archons should be reconed to about 120 in number. That'll give him a more reasonable size army. Why doesn't Charlie just take over the whole of Erfworld right now? I assume it's because he likes playing the game more than he wants to "just win." But 600 Archons seems vastly overpowering. Their number ought to be smaller.

Or perhaps Archons alone just aren't as powerful as we all believe....

[wrecan]

Or perhaps Archons alone just aren't as powerful as we all believe....

I think people judge the power of archons against three Charlie's Archons we saw in book one, who I beleve were three of the most potent archons Charlie had. Other than a few tricks, like flashing, and flight, I think archons vary wildly in power. Charlie does a good job at hiding how powerful any given archon might be... for obvious reasons.

[MarbitChow]

But 600 Archons seems vastly overpowering. Their number ought to be smaller.
Or perhaps Archons alone just aren't as powerful as we all believe....

Keep in mind that force multipliers win battles. Archons may be powerful individually, but without leadership bonuses from warlords, etc. they can still get taken out, and fairly easily. Note the decrypted archon that got dusted in the arrow shower - and she had both Ansom's and Wanda's leadership bonuses. 600 is a lot, but only against a foe that isn't geared to fight them. In 200-300 turns, GK can raise that many dwagons, plus all the units that the city is popping, and that's just one side. Once sides start to combine, they can overwhelm Charlie with numbers - he can still only pop 2-3 archons a turn.

Plus, if he's fighting GK, every archon he loses rises against him...

[teratorn]

Or perhaps Archons alone just aren't as powerful as we all believe....

Per the calculation, Charlie needed 30+ archons to defeat a rather pathetic GK.

[skarl]

attacking is not defending... I suppose that charlie has nice defence bonusses for his archons at his capital, there are some golems in there if I got that right at the wiki, and furthermore, he may have hired some casters to get some awsome autodefences

[Red Piker]

I always assumed Archons were glass cannons, high damage output and low HP/DEF. They're most effective when they're making the opening shot and drastically reducing the enemy forces while other units move in to finish them off.

As for what's going on in the tunnel I think Jefftichew is testing Parson's mindset, he probably doesn't agree with what happened with Queen Bea's daughter writing her off as just an abomination and fighting for royal mandate. The scroll is probably just a precaution in case parson ended up being someone who didn't think about others, free will, etc. My prediction for the coming pages is that Parson passes Jefftichew's test, enters jetstone just as slately jetpacks to engage the archons ending up with his forces getting slaughtered but still managing enough to promote tremmenis to heir just before an archon toasts him. They end the battle by capturing the unconcious King Trammenis and despite what everyone else tells him he should do Parson......lets Tramennis go. I don't think there is a presidence for just letting a prisoner go, especially a king. Then the next chapter will begin with Parson and Tremmenis taking on Jillian in helicopters made by Ace. With jetpack soldiers.

[WaterMonkey314]

I always assumed Archons were glass cannons, high damage output and low HP/DEF. They're most effective when they're making the opening shot and drastically reducing the enemy forces while other units move in to finish them off.

As for what's going on in the tunnel I think Jefftichew is testing Parson's mindset, he probably doesn't agree with what happened with Queen Bea's daughter writing her off as just an abomination and fighting for royal mandate. The scroll is probably just a precaution in case parson ended up being someone who didn't think about others, free will, etc. My prediction for the coming pages is that Parson passes Jefftichew's test, enters jetstone just as slately jetpacks to engage the archons ending up with his forces getting slaughtered but still managing enough to promote tremmenis to heir just before an archon toasts him. They end the battle by capturing the unconcious King Trammenis and despite what everyone else tells him he should do Parson......lets Tramennis go. I don't think there is a presidence for just letting a prisoner go, especially a king. Then the next chapter will begin with Parson and Tremmenis taking on Jillian in helicopters made by Ace. With jetpack soldiers.

An interesting prediction - I only disagree on whom they'd fight. Trem seems to like Jillian, so going after her is a bit unlikely in my opinion.

Now, Haggar or Charlie? THEY could be next...

[Saladman]

Or perhaps Archons alone just aren't as powerful as we all believe....

I figure they're just another top unit type, as in produced by certain level 3 or above cities, like dwagons or (presumably) megalogwiffs*. And I further figure that top units are very roughly balanced in power, though not necessarily in all circumstances, they likely have different ideal uses. So Charlie's one per turn is pretty good, and coming up with a strategy to cover upkeep for 600 without anybody figuring out you have that many is pretty good, but if he ever did face a big enough alliance popping top units from multiple cities, with warlords for leadership, and denying him upkeep to boot, he'd be in trouble.

This is probably not an original or a profound observation. I bring it up because I'm not convinced archons or any other units are the clear overall winners it might seem when they get a couple of victories in-story.

*And probably daemons also, and almost certainly others we haven't seen. I'm not sure if Gumps are level 2 units or top units; we saw them take down a couple of dwagons, but they had leadership also, and they're not especially awesome for top units.

[Lamech]

Archon's are strong. I mean 30 could take down even the hundreds of units GK had. But GK was just one side. And a weak one. And there are more sides than most people know. If Charlie decided to "take" erfworld he would get ground into dust before he could blink.

Again I point to Kingworld, and the other help Charlie has given FAQ - this had little to do with Parson. But really it doesn't matter if his target is Parson or the 'pliers or GK as a whole - Ending Stanley's life solves his problem regardless, and I hereby speculate that its possible for Charlie to do it - especially with the elite GK units all at Spacerock.

Naw... attacking GK would be insane. First off, Sizemore and the volcano. If he hasn't weaponized his massive pool of lava he's an idiot. I think we can safely assume that ground and tunnels are out, even if Charlie had those. Which leaves GK only with all of the shady and woodsy elves for archers, anything they've popped, any marbit crossbowmen they've decrypted for anti-air. Then they probably have a few dwagons. That tower of doom is certainly up. Wanda has had nothing to do with her juice for the last hundred something turns except make croakamancy scrolls. They have healer elves to keep the dwagons from dropping. And its a level 8 city. Ohh and there is still an arkentool there. And... Wanda and Jack can be there in like three seconds. Also the entirety of the GMtTA. And the hippiemancers.
Yeah, GK is at its weakest right now. But... no, if Charlie attacked right now all it would do is force the recall of Wanda and Jack. Followed by a TPK for Charlie.

[auraseer]

Or perhaps Archons alone just aren't as powerful as we all believe....

I think people judge the power of archons against three Charlie's Archons we saw in book one, who I beleve were three of the most potent archons Charlie had.

I agree with that. Also, I think folks tend to forget that the dwagons they killed so flashily were already heavily wounded. (They were camped out over the lake because they were trying to hide from the RCC return strike.) The deck was even more stacked in the archons' favor by Jillian's level-9 leadership, where the dwagons had only the stale uncroaked warlords. That's not to mention that they only took out the one "weakest stack," three dwagons, before Vinnie and Ansom showed up with reinforcements and a chief warlord bonus.

I just don't think they are as crushingly powerful as some folks seem to believe. We know they are "knight class," and their support abilities make them great at support, but I would give even odds for any one knight (e.g., one of Stanley's hobgobwins) matching an equal level archon in straight combat.

[Tryble]

This forum is always fun to read because you guys routinely post interesting, insightful comments on nearly every page.
But it seems you might have missed something...(or I am seeing patterns where none exist)

Take a look at Jo Jo's speech again. Notice how he places emphasis (words in italic) on seemingly random words?

Look at them in order, and they are..."Now, right into, be, free will, no idea, individual". 'Right into' and 'no idea' look like they're part of his distracting conversation (though that is debatable), so we can probably omit those.

You're left with 'Now be free will individual', which when you also consider the seemingly shrinking scroll, looks an awful lot like he's stealthily casting a loyalty-breaking spell on Parson. Which is pretty much what everyone is suspecting.

I could be crazy, though.

[the_tick_rules]

tons of erf characters are crazy, you're in good company.

[Housellama]

I stand by this. The Erf section of specialties deals with tangible matter. The Numbers section deals with measurable values. Fate deals with the alteration of the X factor within said Faction of ability.

Staying in Stagemancy, Hatomancy is the production of items from nowhere. Giving solid form. Rhyme-o-mancy is the production of beats, music, which can be broken down into a measurable rhythm that somehow increases a side's ability to fight. Fate? In all the other forms of magic it is the manipulation of Life, and I doubt in Carnymancy it is any different.

Croakamancers bring the dead back to fight. Healomancers preserve the living to prevent death. Thinkamancy reads and influences the mind. Dollamancy give the ability to move to the inanimate, which is typically only allowed for the living. It's all about the X factor that makes up life.

So Carnymancy HAS to be about throwing unpredictability into the threads of Fate and the manipulation of life. In a way that acts like a show, distracting you with stage pyrotechnics and then pulling a woman out of a closet when she had been sealed in a hole. It CHANGES things in a way that one should not be able to predict. I would guess that the Carnymancers are the natural enemy of the Predictamancers, as the latter is about following the lines of fate and the former are altering it.

The Predictamancers right now are all, "So what if people die? Let nature runs it's course and it will be fine, no matter who or what is destroyed. That's frikkin' fate." Jojo may be there to fling one in the eye of Marie and give Parson a way to win the fight without destroying Jetstone. A way to stack the deck so that Parson, the wildcard, can win without destroying everything around him like the end of Book 1.

I totally agree with this too. Carnymancers are the con-men of the MK. Mathamancers are like Predictamancers. They can see the odds, can predict what's likely to happen. Carnymancers, however, I see as like Luckamancers, but on a much larger scale. Instead of just giving odds a little nudge to make the unlikely happen, Carnymancers run a con on Lady Fate herself. While she's watching the cards get shuffled round and round and round, the queen's already left the table and poor Lady Fate is going to be losing her money and walking away confused.

That's why I think that even if he WAS sent by Charlie, (which I still believe is highly likely) he's got his own agenda. Parson's the biggest thing that Fate's got going for her right now, and if a Carnymancer can get his hooks into him, then they have the means to run a long con on their favorite target. No more little games anymore. This is the big leagues. They can take Lady Fate for a merry little dance via Parson, take her for every last dime and have her thanking them for the opportunity, and that right there is every carny's dream.

[bladestorm]

Jillian already has one of Queen Bea's old casters. Having Jojo on her side as well wouldn't be much of a long shot. They were sent to MK with the orders to only side with Royalty, and Jillian just happened to be a royal looking for some casters.

The title of this book is 'Love is a Battlefield'. Jillian wanted two things from this war. She currently physically has Ansom, and she made an offer to Wanda. Ansom is beholden to Wanda. If Jillian is able to turn Wanda, she gets both of the things she wanted. Jillian has always been a wild card. She has also been shown raiding smaller outposts of GK for a while, but for what reason? Random attacks of opportunity, or gaining resources for a very expensive purchase? Jillian's heart is set upon what she wants, but their minds are not set on her.

That scroll could be a lot of things, but I don't think it is meant for Parson. It could be to turn Wanda to Jillian's side. It could be some advance research scroll designed to revert Decrypted to their previous state (and said state could be viewed as when they had free will rather than being a tool for the Titans). It could be a mass reversal spell to clear all of the Decrypted (returning them to a state where they could return to their loved ones, is such exists in Erfworld outside of royalty and casters).

It could be a credit note for Jetstone as a voucher for enough Schmuckers to promote Tremennis to heir. That would add to the battlefield a father's unrealized love for his last son, and familial love as brother battles brother, or if the king launches an attack against Ossomer, father against son. Will the bonds that the brothers held in their previous existence allow them to attack one another, or will they allow an enemy warlord to 'accidentally' escape?

Also, what would happen if Tramennis as King of the new Jetstone had to battle FAQ if they had Ansom as a chief warlord and Wanda as their main caster? How would the casters of GK react if Wanda turned to FAQ's side? Which arbkentool would decrypted dwagons obey?

I am of the idea that Charlie used to be in the same situation as Parson. A Stupidworlder who was transported to Erfworld. After learning how to manipulate the rules to his favour, he obscured his identity and started popping the Archons, which would be a minion of choice for most male gamers given their passtimes and special attacks. Parson hesitated when he realized he order them to perform any act he wanted to. A less scrupulous person may not have hesitated to abuse that power. Parson could very well blow the shroud that Charlie has worked for so long to establish, which makes him even more dangerous. Parson wouldn't be a direct target for Charlie, but Charlie could target Parson's vulnerabilities, namely the sources of his power. Looking over the Klogs, which Charlie may be able to hack into, it should be immediately known that Parson is getting most of his Erfworld info from his ties to Sizemore, Maggie, and Wanda. Play an indirect attack by giving Jillian what she needs (for a huge price) to convert Wanda to her side, and it is a win-win, since Parson loses a huge chunk of his offensive power and source of information about Erfworld. Manipulate the GMtTA to start grooming Maggie for their own purposes, the GMtTA gain what they want, GK loses it's Thinkamancer, Parson loses another tie to Erfworld, and Charlie stands to gain a profit from the transaction, or at the very least, uses Maggie as a mole inside that organization since he may have had something to do with her survival with the link breakage. Pull a few more strings, spread enough rumours, and set things in motion to keep Parson from making use of MK (such as if he were to take another caster through Portal Park into a battle situation or manipulate things so that Parson takes the blame for MK losing its neutrality), and Charlie is in another win-win. All that's missing is for a separation between Parson and Sizemore. That would leave Parson on GK's side, with only Stanley or the local troops for information. Stanley would be useless for any information other than how to 'rock out', and most of the inhabitants of GK seem challenged with their mental stats. That would be a crippling blow to Parson's intel about Erfworld, unless he was willing to pay Charlie for such info. No direct war, nothing to tie Charlie to the elimination of Parson as a potential threat, Charlie gets what he wants, and Parson is there to take the blame for a lot of grief across Erfworld (which Charlie would be more than happy to rent out his resources to assist with the recovery efforts).

[Oberon]

As soon as Charlie appears to be taking a side, and not just acting as a disinterested and neutral resource, other sides will stop using him (causing him to lose revenue) and may actually attack. Charlie knows that if enough sides team up against him, he's still toast. Even grabbing all of those nice toys from GK doesn't guarantee him a win against overwhelming odds, and the more menacing he appears, the more likely people team up against him. He's tolerated now because he only has 1 arkentool, and he uses it to assist everyone equally. He won't abandon his current strategy of avoiding attention and acting helpful until it's too late for anyone to stop him.

The royals have already stopped using him, he has little else to lose on that front. And GK isn't using him, either. Presenting the appearance of neutrality is only valuable when it brings you something. In the past, it brought him contracts from various members of the RCC and RCCII, but no longer. So maintaining that appearance is only as valuable as it may be for Charlie to try to win back his customer base.

As for the volcano and gems... how deep are those mines? There are a lot of Schmuckers there, but by taking and pillaging the city (assuming he could), Charlie permanently destroys his side's reputation for neutrality - he now has Interests. He would essentially be unable to operate his business as he currently does until long after every currently operating ruler and warlord has forgotten the action (croaked), which would be a very, very long time. Would he trust the money to last that long? It's a huge risk in the long run.

I find this argument to fail the test of history. Charlie planned to take GK during TBfGK. He only needed to await Parson holding off the RCC forces with a 66% chance to succeed, and then he planned to take the garrison, capture or kill Parson, and take the mathamancy bracer and potentially the 'pliers if GK managed to take them in the defense. When Parson pointed out that Charlie could not hold GK against the remaining RCC forces, Charlie said essentially "Who cares? I'll fly out of here with the bracer and the 'pliers and you if you play nice. They can have the city."
So clearly Charlie is not against the idea of capturing a city, or even doing so under the nose of his supposed allies just due to having first priority in the turn, if the return on investment is high enough.

I think you've hit a possible plot hole here. Possibly Charlie's Archons should be reconed to about 120 in number. That'll give him a more reasonable size army. Why doesn't Charlie just take over the whole of Erfworld right now?

I agree. I've pointed out the exact same thing in the past. Charlie's available forces and their specials should allow them to perform decapitation strikes against side after side. Any side which leaves itself weak in the capitol depending on the ability to bring troops home before any approaching army can get to their walls is completely ignoring the fact that Charlie has a 100% flying army which can veil. He could potentially decapitate a side, collect any items that side had at their capitol, plunder their treasury, raze the city for a huge pile of shmuckers, and fly away. And no one would know any better, no one would know how it happened or why or who did it, until magic could be applied to the situation. And it would take a while for other sides to care enough to invest the time and expense. Especially when they would be busy mopping up the now neutral cities of the fallen side, and potentially fighting off other sides who were looking to do the exact same thing. No, it would be business as usual until it happened a few times, and then it might be too late.

Charlie could do the same thing in another part of the world, to string out the time it would take to learn of his attacks. He could hire the casters who might be used to discover his involvement, and keep them busy with other work. He could do a whole lot of things to ensure that he remained undetected, until there were no longer any sides strong enough to oppose him.

Keep in mind that force multipliers win battles. Archons may be powerful individually, but without leadership bonuses from warlords, etc. they can still get taken out, and fairly easily

Archons are their own force multiplier. They can have leadership, and therefore do not need warlords. Charlie chooses not to maintain a CWL for whatever reason, so they never have a CWL bonus, and therefore do not need one to be potent. And remember the casters discussing the horror of attacking archons?

"You ever face one?" said Pierce. Then he held up his free hand and shook his head to wave off an answer Ace was forming. "Lemme rephrase that. You ever face three or four Archons working together? They're nuts. Daze you with Foolamancy, shock your commanders, mess with your mind... Maybe they can't do that much right now but their Foolamancy alone makes them hard to hit. We'd waste a lot of juice and arrows before we could shoot down that many."

Again, they are their own force multiplier, and they do not get taken down easily in combat.

Per the calculation, Charlie needed 30+ archons to defeat a rather pathetic GK.

The number was never cited, but the number sent was in response to the question "How many archons will it take to take the GK garrison in a single turn?" It is a fair assumption that Charlie sent exactly that many, as he does not play games with a losing option. GK may have been "rather pathetic" in your opinion, but as we witnessed it was able to kill a very significant and highly lopsided number of RCC units, and this was prior to the volcano eruption. This had to have been factored in to the calculation. 30+ to take out a garrisoned level 5 city which was called the best defended position on Erf, and which had 3 casters, seems a small number to me. Add to the discussion the fact that Charlie didn't bother to send them in under veil, and it seems fair to assume that 30+ archons could take out any given city in a single turn, especially after spying invisibly for turns to await a moment of particular weakness, such as was demonstrated with Haggar.

[Lamech]

I agree. I've pointed out the exact same thing in the past. Charlie's available forces and their specials should allow them to perform decapitation strikes against side after side. Any side which leaves itself weak in the capitol depending on the ability to bring troops home before any approaching army can get to their walls is completely ignoring the fact that Charlie has a 100% flying army which can veil. He could potentially decapitate a side, collect any items that side had at their capitol, plunder their treasury, raze the city for a huge pile of shmuckers, and fly away. And no one would know any better, no one would know how it happened or why or who did it, until magic could be applied to the situation. And it would take a while for other sides to care enough to invest the time and expense. Especially when they would be busy mopping up the now neutral cities of the fallen side, and potentially fighting off other sides who were looking to do the exact same thing. No, it would be business as usual until it happened a few times, and then it might be too late.

Charlie could do the same thing in another part of the world, to string out the time it would take to learn of his attacks. He could hire the casters who might be used to discover his involvement, and keep them busy with other work. He could do a whole lot of things to ensure that he remained undetected, until there were no longer any sides strong enough to oppose him.

One caster through the MK portal. Or one message sent out via hat, or thinkamancer. Or the predictamancer's or the thinkamancer's or any other part of the Parson conspiracy could point him out to the rest of Erf. He'll get found out fairly quickly.

[Joe22c.]

It's probably already been predicted a few million times already but someone (Parson, perhaps) must say:

"Get back, Jojo!"

at some point.

[Occasional Sage]

One caster through the MK portal. Or one message sent out via hat, or thinkamancer. Or the predictamancer's or the thinkamancer's or any other part of the Parson conspiracy could point him out to the rest of Erf. He'll get found out fairly quickly.

MK portal. Does Charlie have one? That's an ugly can of worms.

And aren't Archons considered Casters?