Book 2 – Page 62

[gameboy1234]

"Get back, Jojo!"

^_^ Good one.

[ftl]

And aren't Archons considered Casters?

No, I don't think so.

[teratorn]

Given the large fees Charlie charges for mercenary work razing cities for schmuckers might not be worth it in terms of income if he loses ~100 archons in each raid. The mercenary gig is safe and profitable. He can't base a war of conquest on his archons for it takes him too long to cover his losses.

[BLANDCorporatio]

I'll add my several cents to Charlie and world domination debate.

First, I'm with Oberon in thinking that the ">30 Archons needed to conquer pre-eruption GK" is not proof that Archons are weak. We know, from Parson's convo with them, that they are versatile units, and the fact that Charlie asked whether such a small number could take GK in a turn leads me to believe Charlie thought the true answer was close to that number (or else, why waste a calculation from the bracer?). Also, GK was not defenseless. It proved its combat power again and again in skirmishes with RCC troops.

Second however, I think Charlie plays for the point victory. Let me explain.

In most TBSes, eliminate all opposition (aka world domination) is a victory condition. Often however, it's not the only one. Max your tech, perform certain quests, build some super-happy-fun-time-dome or ascend to another plane of existence, whatever. Now, I for one don't play very well. I hate micromanaging a vast empire and find the frequent needs to defend border points annoying. Therefore, if there is a way to eschew expansion but still win, I'd go for that.

The one condition for that to be viable is to be more or less isolated, away from the normal routes of other players. If this is possible, then turtling is possible, and once that works, some maneuvering to accomplish the quests or whatever may just do the trick. So for example, if the game were a European Middle Age simulator, I'd pick England. Definitely not Germany, which has potentially hostile neighbours on all sides.

Now, in Erfworld, there may be no victory condition at all, but if just "staying alive" is your goal, then here- Charlie is turtling, sending crack team of Archons to accomplish quests abroad. Doesn't want to bother with expansion. I believe Charlescomm could expand should it want to, it just doesn't want to bother. If only it had a loyal Chief Warlord who didn't mind micromanaging a vast empire ...

[Fabo]

RE Archons vs. Gobwin Knob: Is it just me, or are we missing one point in calculating strength of 30 archons? IIRC while GK was solid on the ground and defended against RCCs ground forces pretty well, it had almost no units capable of defending the airspace... therefore number of Archons needed to overpower GK might be 30, but if we took a solidly balanced Level 5 city, we might be arriving at much more.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Said Archons would still have to kill the GK units. I can't remember what was the exact condition for a city to fall (Garrison, I think) but presumably this means the Archons would need to fit inside that region (as in, not the Airspace) and slaughter what's there.

Or maybe they can do so from range, so, you know. Powerful, considering that this means (circa) 30 archons could kill those Golems (who were totally hardcore, as they survived an eruption) in one turn. Keep in mind, the Gowems had a Dirtamancer's bonus and ammunition in a turn can be depleted. See Jetstone's Archers now.

The point is not, however, that Charlie could fight everyone else in one large megabattle with 600 Archons and win. The point is, with that kind of force, expansion (and holding on to territory) would not be as big a problem. Expansion can be gradual and if done right can result in increase of army. With the resources Charlie has, all that's needed is a will to expand, to do so.

EDIT:

and in keeping with "Charlie plays like I do", here's something else Charlie demonstrably can achieve. Remove (some) sides from the map by decapitation strikes. This would only work on some sides, granted, like Haggar. And the kicker is, if done right nobody need know whodunnit. One day you're looking out to your neighbours in the west, the next you find their cities empty and them vanished. Why? How would you know, who'd tell you? As long as rulers and heirs are easy to locate (and apparently they are, for Charlie) and the side does not have Thinkamancers (some sides don't, see Jetstone), then making a swipe does not dirty Charlie's hands.

I'd do this when playing Medieval:Total War when one of the larger empires threatened to win the game on points or such. Locate the rulers, and either assassinate them or send an oldfashioned group of pikers to persuade them to stop breathing. There are times when it can work quite well. Naturally, I didn't follow this with a quick land-grab. The whole point was to play not-expansively. Let the neighbours fight each other for the spoils, and maybe kill off whoever seems to be winning.

[Smoker]

Yeah I agree with Bland.

See, to me, its not a plot hole that Charlie could kick ass with his current set up, its just he doesn't want to.

In my mind, he's seen Erfworld for the pointless and dangerous place that it is, and found a very neat way to rise above it. The fact that he hasn't tried to take GK by force doesn't bother me. He would do almost anything to avoid stepping down from his pedestal...

Only.. its looking like he's getting dragged down regardless. Life for Charlie isn't very good right now, and he's making bolder and bolder attempts to twist the odds to restore Erfworld to its former balance. Since that's not working, its pretty much time he sat back and re-thought his strategy. If he's behind Jojo as well as all the other things he's pulled, its really getting to be a direct assault regardless. There's bugger all distinction between hiring a unit to ambush a side, and ambushing a side with your own units.

In my mind its pretty much time for him to bite the bullet and do something drastic - there's no problem he has that capping Stanley wouldn't solve, and the downsides as discussed above are pretty much worth it. Naturally, YMMV.

[gazes_also]

I agree with Bland's point about Charlie playing just well enough for the win, but for a different possible reason; there may be bigger opponents out there.
It could equally be said that TMK has sufficient force to overwhelm all the sides in Erfworld if they choose, but they don't. What we know of TGMTTA is that they are engaged in some kind of cold war with Charlie, and neither side will give more information to the other that it absolutely has to.
Up another level there is conflict between the forces of Fate and those opposed to them, Charlie is keeping his real strength hidden for the coming war to break war.
[Edit: oh and there's always the fourth tool out there - who knows what that will do when it comes to light]

On whether Jojo can be trusted and what his powers are:
By nature a Carnymancer can't be trusted, it is their nature to lie. It seems to me there are 2 basic Carnymancer powers, Patter and Cold Reading.
Patter is speech used to entice, entrance, misdirect, deceive and influence. Jojo's barker patter has caught Parson and now he is seriously at risk of the latter three.
Cold reading is an essential skill of a Carny, whether it's a mind-reader fortune-teller or a guess-your-age stall, the ability to read the mark from the smallest of clues is a key skill. Perhaps a carnymancer can see hidden stats on a mark, or see how those stats were achieved - when did they last level and how? Maybe Jojo can even see Parson's hidden Special.
Together these are used to create an illusion that things are predetermined when they are not - such as a fortune-teller; or that the mark has free will when he doesn't; forcing a card which the mark thinks is a free choice. Either way, whichever the carny wants you to believe - in this case there is free-wll - the opposite will be the case.
How could a Carnymancer be useful in city defence? Well, he could convince an attacking WL that it wasn't worth attacking the city and he would do much better attacking the capital of his ally, while making the WL think it was his own idea.

[kefkakrazy]

I gotta say, I'm skeptical of Carnymancers being primarily persuasion-based.

It seems to me that a Carnymancer, assuming their primary skillset to be the proposed "patter/influence" role, would be almost a liability in Erfworld's combat system. If their specialty is a noncombat role, then presumably they wouldn't have any great combat influence, and in a setting like Erfworld, I have a hard time seeing a Caster (with the high upkeep that implies) being considered useful with a noncombat specialty. The only type of caster whose power set we're familiar with who doesn't really have a direct combat or combat support role is the Thinkamancers, and look at how overpowered they are in a support role.

I can see a scenario going like this.

Defending side signals for Parley.
Attacking side realizes that defenders have a Carnymancer, so avoid the chance of being influenced, they reject parley and just level the city.



A guy like Parson might be able to find a use for a persuasion-oriented caster, but there really doesn't seem to be enough there yet.




What all this implies to me is that we're going to see more powers from Jojo, basically. I'm not discounting that Carnymancers have some persuasion-based power, but I'm pretty certain they're also going to have some other combat-oriented powers.

[bladestorm]

Might be interesting to see what Jojo could do with the Arkenhammer. Anson had some minor power when using the Arkenpliers, but their real power didn't come to fruition until Wanda wielded them. Stanley is only dimly aware of what the Arkenhammer can do, and it has some amazing powers on ts own. If the hammer got the same jump in powers the pliers did with the right wielder, things could get really interesting depending on whose side he is on. Maybe more fate magick is being worked to get Jojo into possession of the hammer, removing that Arkentool from GK.

Thinking about it, maybe hat scroll is to unattune Stanley from the hammer. You can't send a caster into a city you don't control, but if Jojo sides with Parson, he ~could~ go through the portal to GK. Cue in another turnamancy to revert Jojo, Stanley gets assassinated, and the hammer neatly falls into an actual Carniemancer's hands.

[bladestorm]

Another possible power for a Carniemancer -- Bait and Switch. Use some minor illusions and misdirection, Jojo walks away with the Mathemancy bracer, and Parson goes th other way with a cheap watch on his wrist, or a blue scroll in his hand. By the time he realizes the switch, it's already too late. As a combat mechanic, you could use that to switch out one of your units for one of the opponent's units on a one-by-one basis.

Another option would be the distracting games during combat. We have already seen dance fighting initialed via a giant DDR screen. Carnies may possibly have a similar ability, like using a hammer to launch a puck upward, and wherever it stops is what bonus is applied to the troops, or spinning a wheel of bonuses, and wherever it stops, your side gets that bonus. They might also be able to link with dollamancers for prize gowems. Hit the target or pop a balloon with a dart, and you side gets three free cloth gowems added to your forces.

[the_tick_rules]

And aren't Archons considered Casters?

No, I don't think so.

Archon's are knight-class flying units that gain some spells as they level. As for what a carnymancer does I have no idea. Bait and switch sounds unlikely. Since I'm sure most people in erf know a carnymancer's power they'd never let them get close enough to go all clepto on them. Plus with casters being so rare having them run up in people's faces to do their work sounds unlikely.

[atalex]

Frankly, I'm amazed that the "idiot ball" debate hasn't re-emerged. Parson's decision to travel through the MK was incredibly unwise and tactically dubious, but I let it slide because I thought it fit Parson's character. But for him to then stop -- in a tunnel beneath the MK! -- and parlay with an unknown Carniemancer? A type of caster whose magic he doesn't understand except to say that it produces weird, trickery-based effects? That seems to me to be such a spectacularly stupid and OOC action on Parson's part that it only makes sense to me if Jojo has already used a Carniemancer spell to influence Parson into stopping long enough to play Jojo's "game." Because if not, then the most genre-savvy being in Erfworld has just done something far dumber than anything Tremmanis ever did.

Not making an "idiot ball" argument myself, mind you. I have faith in Rob that there's more going on here than Parson spontaneously getting stupid.

[teratorn]

Frankly, I'm amazed that the "idiot ball" debate hasn't re-emerged.

I tried twice, but most people think it was a wise move. I still think it's terribly dumb.

I don't buy Bland and following posters points about Charlie being in a position where decapitation strikes are wise. He needs to be in a much stronger position, he can only replenish his numbers by three archons every two turns, and that if he hires a turnamancer. I think he was bluffing about attacking Haggar.

Parson could easily defeat him as things are now. Put as many archers in your city as possible. Send all your dwagons on a archon hunting spree by fighting along sides facing mercenary units rented by charlescom, and keep doing it in such a way that you kill more archons per turn than Charlescom can pop to replenish the losses. Not only you reduce numbers of archons, you make sides unwilling to hire from Charlie if they learn their enemies get free allied dwagons.

[wrecan]

But for him to then stop -- in a tunnel beneath the MK! -- and parlay with an unknown Carniemancer? A type of caster whose magic he doesn't understand except to say that it produces weird, trickery-based effects?

The caster was easily gaining ground. He couldn't outrun it. if the caster wanted to cast a spell on Parson, he would have already. The best Parson can do is keep him at arm's length, in case this caster needs a touch spell of some sort. Since Jojo wants to talk, Parson's going to talk.

The only other option is to murder Jojo. Jojo hasn't attacked Parson and doesn't seem to want to attack Parson for now. Parson is not ruthless -- he's actively trying not to be ruthless. He's not a murderer' I don't think Parson has it in him to mow Jojo down in cold blood for trying to talk to him. Maybe that's not the optimal thing, but I don't think Parson would like himself very much if he acted the way people appear to be suggesting. So if Parson gets croaked for showing a tiny bit of mercy, I think Parson's okay with that. And frankly, if Parson were the kind of guy who would mow down Jojo in cold blood, I'd probably lose interest in the strip myself.

If Parson thinks Jojo is stalling him, then maybe Parson will choose to act differently, but right now it's Parson's conscience overriding his tactics. I approve.

Not making an "idiot ball" argument myself, mind you. I have faith in Rob that there's more going on here than Parson spontaneously getting stupid.

Yes. parson's human. he's not a soldier. he's an adult adolescent gamer who got sucked into a world and made a general. He's not a killer. He's not an assassin. He's not going to mow down Jojo unless he thinks he's got no alternative.

[teratorn]

And frankly, if Parson were the kind of guy who would mow down Jojo in cold blood, I'd probably lose interest in the strip myself.

Quite the opposite here. It's not cold blood, the opponent went after him and being a caster it's not like he is unharmed. If Parson were an experienced warlord he could have the guts to parley. Parson is probably scared and knows the other guy is a menace, talking like this is completely out of character. A scared guy with no experience in this situation should kill the opponent.

[BLANDCorporatio]

I don't buy Bland and following posters points about Charlie being in a position where decapitation strikes are wise. He needs to be in a much stronger position, he can only replenish his numbers by three archons every two turns, and that if he hires a turnamancer.

You don't understand decapitation strikes. They are not meant for being in a "strong position", nor do they need a huge army to back them up. That's the whole idea. What they do need is good intel though.

I think he was bluffing about attacking Haggar.

Can't dismiss it as a possibility. In any case it was a convincing bluff, which means Sammy thought that Haggar, at the time, could be removed from the map by a "reasonably small" number of archons. Why a small number? Because if Sammy would think that Haggar could defend itself against a large number of Archons, he'd have called Charlie's bluff. A large number of Archons sent in one place is not Charlie's known modus operandi.

Parson could easily defeat him as things are now. Put as many archers in your city as possible. Send all your dwagons on a archon hunting spree by fighting along sides facing mercenary units rented by charlescom, and keep doing it in such a way that you kill more archons per turn than Charlescom can pop to replenish the losses. Not only you reduce numbers of archons, you make sides unwilling to hire from Charlie if they learn their enemies get free allied dwagons.

There are at least three flaws with that plan.

For one, we have historical evidence that Dwagons are useless. Who wants popcorn, btw?

For two, that kind of thing requires map information, which is one thing a one-Thinkamancer side like GK doesn't have easily. Lookamancer table is gone.

For three, I doubt whoever hired the Archons will get pissed at Charlie. At most, they could negociate some reduction of fees as they go against who's really pissing them off, which is GK. Come on now, a side sending units in another's territory, killing units that contractually belong to that side? That's an act of war and will be viewed with great suspicion. And outrage.

[teratorn]

You don't understand decapitation strikes. They are not meant for being in a "strong position", nor do they need a huge army to back them up. That's the whole idea. What they do need is good intel though.

Poor me, BLAND is being mean. Charlie won't do something that will lose him money unless there is a good reason for it. A decapitation strike means removing a side with a single blow, that's easy. But then what would Charlie win with it? The treasury and the funds from razing the capital city are probably not worth losing a few tens of archons. Occupying the defeated side cities means diverting resources to defend them and making himself a target.

After the first couple of strikes every side would start popping archers and there surely would be a RCC against him. Unless he is in a strong enough position to send decapitations strikes to all the major sides in short succession he would lose. Every one would know he did it. Any side worth attacking would have a few casters that might be sent to the MK, not counting things like hats or the eventual thinkamancer.

I only see him doing it if it would «win the game,» or if he really needs to do it (I think he will go for a decapitation strike against GK and that's the real reason Parson is leaving GK).

For one, we have historical evidence that Dwagons are useless. Who wants popcorn, btw?

You're trolling there, so I won't take that bait.

For two, that kind of thing requires map information, which is one thing a one-Thinkamancer side like GK doesn't have easily. Lookamancer table is gone.

What kind of strawman are you discussing? I meant circulating the information so any side facing an enemy with archons knows you'd send help no strings attached. I was talking about joining one of the sides in the fight, not going alone after every side hiring charlie.

For three, I doubt whoever hired the Archons will get pissed at Charlie. At most, they could negociate some reduction of fees as they go against who's really pissing them off, which is GK. Come on now, a side sending units in another's territory, killing units that contractually belong to that side? That's an act of war and will be viewed with great suspicion.

??? So what? You do exactly the same thing Charlie is doing. You join the side that is fighting the archon force. I don't see sides at war with charlie because of that kind of thing.

And there we've learned BLAND only knows how to count up to three!

[Housellama]

And frankly, if Parson were the kind of guy who would mow down Jojo in cold blood, I'd probably lose interest in the strip myself.

Quite the opposite here. It's not cold blood, the opponent went after him and being a caster it's not like he is unharmed. If Parson were an experienced warlord he could have the guts to parley. Parson is probably scared and knows the other guy is a menace, talking like this is completely out of character. A scared guy with no experience in this situation should kill the opponent.

What planet are you from? Killing is a HARD thing to do.

Have you ever tried to kill any higher form of life than an insect that wasn't intended for food or was a proven threat? Do you try to avoid cats and dogs and other small animals when they cross in front of your car unexpectedly? Have you ever had to make the choice to euthanize a pet? Killing is not easy.

Yes, farmers and hunters kill wolves and other predators all the time. They have to to protect the flock. Herders kill food animals on a regular basis, but they KNOW from the beginning that's their fate. Hunters go out and shoot deer and other animals for sport, and soldiers kill people all the time, but both of those people do so in specifically created environments, and soldiers go through weeks and weeks of intensive training specifically designed to teach them to pull the trigger to kill another human being because someone else told them to.

Parson is not a farmer, nor a herder. He is not a hunter and despite his current situation, he is not a soldier. He is a strategist. He is good at looking at situations and devising interesting ways to resolve them. If he was Japanese, he would highly valued in the cutthroat business environment over there. But he is not a soldier. He has not gone through the training designed to desensitize him to the act of killing another person. It does not come naturally to a human being to end the life of another human being. There are exceptions to every rule, of course, but from everything we have seen, Parson is NOT an exception.

Parson did, in fact, react as a scared person would. He stopped and drew his weapon with the intent to attack. The reason he did NOT is because Jojo presented body language that is universally recognized throughout every culture as a sign of submission and surrender. He raised his hands with the palms open, showing that he had no weapons and was no threat. That expression is built into the human psyche. Just as smiles are universal, that signal is also universal. He indicated to Parson that he was NOT a threat, and that he did not intent to attack. So, without dropping his guard, Parson started asking questions.

He knew that if he dropped his guard, the guy could attack him if he wished. If he ran, the guy had a free shot at his back. But right here and now, Jojo is submissive and showed no signs of aggressive behavior. Parson has the upper hand at this very moment, but only at this moment. So he needs to figure out what the boop is going on while he has the advantage, and FAST. Which is exactly what he is attempting to do.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Charlie won't do something that will lose him money unless there is a good reason for it. A decapitation strike means removing a side with a single blow, that's easy. But then what would Charlie win with it?

Depends on the situation. For instance, removal of an aggressive potentially Erf-shattering side. Even you aknowledge that such an attack on GK, were Charlie in a position to make it, would be a reasonable choice.

Second, you're discussing strawmen now. I said that with Charlie's info and the nature of several Erf sides, it may well be possible to pull off a decapitation strike and nobody would be left to point fingers.

I get the feeling you're debating against decapitation strikes as a means for world domination (removing everyone else). Me being mean or not, but you still don't get decapitation strikes. From the first post I mentioned that their purpose is not to kill everybody. Just whoever happens to be dangerously powerful and reasonably careless.

You're trolling {about the Dwagons being weak}, so I won't take that bait.

Yeah, I am. But beneath the trolling there is a point. Archons are not the easiest targets for Dwagons to take down. Not all Dwagons will have Stanley's leadership bonuses, for example.

What kind of strawman are you discussing? I meant circulating the information so any side facing an enemy with archons knows you'd send help no strings attached. I was talking about joining one of the sides in the fight, not going alone after every side hiring charlie.

My bad, it was my turn to not understand something. Ok, that makes somewhat more sense. However, who would anyone trust? Charlie, who has a reputation for contracts that screw you over but hey, Charlie lets you keep your cities, or the zombie horde making GK?

Even setting ideology and propaganda aside (where Charlie has an advantage if the official MK attitude is to be believed), how come Charlie didn't send word that Archons are now hireable, "no strings attached", to whoever fights GK? My guess, it's bad business to do so out of principle. You just don't risk units "no strings attached" for missions that are not your own. And a similar argument would apply to GK.

And there we've learned BLAND only knows how to count up to three!

I wasn't quite so mean so as to point out flaws 4 to 5 of your plan. See, I can count to five.

But if you insist,

four is "what does no strings attached mean?". You want your dwagons to croak Archons, but sides fighting sides that employ Archons won't fight just Archons. They'll either want to risk your dwagons on more missions, or decide that you get what you pay for and ditch the offer. Archons are more versatile and Charlie allows various terms.

Five is, Parson cannot afford the policy in terms of tactics. Look at what a crappy deal this is, for GK: (assume people are taking up the offer) send Titans know how many Dwagons to far off lands, for a slim chance to croak some Archons now and then. You say GK only needs to croak 3 Archons per turn. Supposedly, around 600 of those are in all of Erfworld. That's a huge area to comb. Not all hunting parties you send will be successful. In fact, most won't. So you send lots of Dwagons on a wild goose chase.

Six is, this puts the initiative in Charlie's hands. Yep, if Parson's long term strategy is "hunt down Archons" (and he'd have to shout it from the rooftops, so Charlie would know ages before it becomes effective), Charlie could adapt to that pronto. Just scatter a few archons here and there to reduce the odds for the hunters, then mass Archons where those Dwagons are not, anymore. Remember, it's been a consistent theme of the comic that Charlescomm has superior intel to anyone else. Speaking of where Dwagons won't be anymore,

Seven, Archons, what with Foolamancy, Leadership and other such abilities, are quite capable to fend off the Air Defenses of Spacerock. Even with Unipegtaurs and several casters, the prospect for archers looked slim.

Eight, turn-about's fair play. Only a limited number of Dwagons can be popped per turn (unclear on how many can be popped outside GK), and harvesting isn't something to rely on without intel. Imagine people took Charlie's offer for the bounty on uncroaked Archons. Without that flier guard to scout for the Tool, harvesting would not have been a viable strategy. And Charlie just needs to eliminate about 20, as opposed to 600, Archons.

Nine, this plan assumes that GK, right now, is stronger than Charlie. This is a necessary assumption- if your plan were effective, it still is a very long term between the plan being announced and a dent in Charlie's archon count happening, so Charlie would act to remove the threat. Assume said threat is real, it's not at all a clear-cut case that, should Charlie finally say "boop it" and go all-out against GK, GK would survive.

Ten is left as an exercise for the reader.

Really, it's such a shoddy plan I have trouble believing you are being serious. Rather, I think you want to learn how high I can count. I learned some new numbers today.