Book 2 – Page 63

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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Oberon » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:52 pm

Lamech wrote:P.S. Why hasn't Parson been selling calculations?
Huh? Did you forget that Parson did sell calculations?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:08 am

Oberon wrote:Well, all right! Now we are cooking with gas! People are beginning to present fact based opposing opinions, and I approve.

This is a story. No one can prove anything. You think that it is unrealistic that the SPW scroll has not been monetized. Others think that there are many perfectly reasonable explanations for why it wouldn't be. It's all about motivations.

Vanna entered into a link. Vanna has a very strong motivation to see GK destroyed that has nothing to do with money. GK wiped out everyone she ever knew, other than the few casters that escaped. You can certainly use her as an example of a mercenary caster, but other motivations that can be equally strong that could convince her to enter the link. Wiping out the side that caused her side to completely disband is a potentially very strong motivation.

But... here's the thing: we can't KNOW everything about every character. Don King, Jetstone, Haggar - certainly all of these individuals would raise that kind of cash, if they could. They don't have the caster combination required to do it, however.

The casters who can successfully pull it off did it, according to the text, in an attempt to bring lasting peace to Erfworld. They have no motivations to try it again just for the cash.

Hell, the number of people who even know the combination is possible is very limited. GK knows about the bracer, certainly. Charlie as well. I'd wager that not many others do, but I certainly can't cite page numbers to support these assumptions.

We don't need to prove why people aren't making SPW scrolls for cash. The fact is that, other than the first one, they haven't. In order for the story to remain internally consistent, we just need to be able to envision likely scenarios under which there would be no incentive to do so.

We have the following facts supporting our position:
1) Caster links are risky. Casters typically don't enter them unless ordered to, or they feel very comfortable with the thinkamancer due to previous links and fewer participants.
2) The casters involved in the creation of the SPW scroll had ulterior motives besides cash. They gladly took the cash, but casting additional variations of this scroll could undermine their efforts.

We have the following additional supposition:
We have no evidence that the casters who created the scroll are aware of the 'side benefits' - bracers, sword (now destroyed), goggles - and we have no guarantee that these benefits would come with every scroll. Outside of GK, only Charlie knows of the bracer for certain, and he certainly doesn't share information. (Tram & Slately, due to the dossier, are probably now privy to this information as well, but are in no position to capitalize on it as of yet.) In addition, we have no knowledge outside of GK and the scroll's creators how many people are even aware of the scroll's creation. It may not be a trivial or easily reproducible casting.

You have the following facts supporting your position:
1) A scroll that was sold for 350,000 created, as a side effect of casting, an item that was worth 500,000 or more.
2) Everyone needs money.

That's pretty much your argument. You asked why others wouldn't create more versions of the scroll to create more money. We've presented numerous plausible reasons why they might not have. Unless Rob decides to state the actual reasons, or has another caster create the scroll for cash, this discussion will not be settled. People who are believe most people are primarily motivated by money will probably not be able to understand why this combination is not being capitalized on. Others will be able to envision or rationalize sufficient reasons for the scroll not to be reproduced that their willing suspension of disbelief is not threatened. The story will remain internally consistent enough for them.

I enjoy good discussions, mostly because it helps me clarify my own position to myself. But I don't feel the need to rebut you point for point, since you tend to use impossible standards ("What we don't have is any evidence that Isaac spends time building his experimental devices at the expense of his upkeep needs") to counter your opponents assertions. We know there are a number of ways to satisfy upkeep - harvesting, gifts of provisions, etc. - that reduce upkeep requirements, possibly to zero.

The way I perceive your argument is as follows:

"Hot women can make lots of money easily by working in strip clubs. We see one character in the story who makes money stripping. We see other characters who are hot and also need money. Why aren't they all stripping?" and then you reject any moral or ethical reason as to why they might not be stripping, because the only facts you acknowledge are that (1) they can make money stripping and (2) everyone needs money.

If the story seems inconsistent to you because you are upset that it is not filled with strippers, there is nothing we can do to sway you. It is sufficient that others understand.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby ftl » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:59 am

Hah! I like the stripper analogy.

The discussion seems totally backwards to me.

We know that the MK is weird in a lot of ways. They could have a heck of a lot more power than they do, if they felt like extorting sides. They could have a heck of a lot more schmuckers than they do, if they hired out all of their talents. And yet we haven't seen any of those things - from GK and from Transylvito and from Jetstone, we've not seen any inkling of a vibrant trade between Sides and MK Casters. One hired caster (Vanna). A hint that sometime in the past and maybe on occasion, GK gets healomancy scrolls. One uber-powerful scroll obtained from a fancy link and conspiracy. Everything's sort of a one-off event and doesn't come back - Charlie's been MENTIONED to be a good employer, but even in his case, we've only seen one hired caster.

Those are what we get from the story. What makes sense to do is come up with explanations for these. Theories that explain why we see so few exchanges.

Maybe casters have reasons NOT to hire themselves out (e.g. danger of 3-links). Maybe they have no need hire themselves out (other ways of making upkeep, no need to get involved in Erfworld politics). Maybe they've got other motivations for rationing their powers (MK conspiracies only WANT one SPW scroll around). Maybe there's something else.

It doesn't make sense to argue why they SHOULD be happening more - because, as far as we know, they're not! If you make that case, you also need to make the argument why we don't *see* all these things. And I just don't see a good argument for that.

If it were happening, it would be important. If Jetstone could go out and buy scrolls that could help them save the day, that would have been mentioned by either Parson, Slately, Don, Caesar, Ace, or *someone*. If Benjamin could routinely go and sell his services and make some schmuckers for his side, then Don or Ben or Caesar would have brought that up, at least in passing, when they needed fast cash. If back at TBfGK, Parson could have sent someone into the MK to buy more scrolls or hire more casters, that would have been mentioned at the time when Wanda's personal stash was raided. And so on and so forth.

The fact that these things aren't mentioned routinely leads me to believe that the are, in fact, NOT ROUTINE. They can be done, but they're not common and not routine. And that leaves the question - why?

All that discussion of capitalism fails, badly, at answering that question. In fact, it predicts the *opposite*, that we *would* see lots of these. And doesn't at all address the question of why we don't.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Oberon » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:42 am

MarbitChow wrote:This is a story. No one can prove anything.
This is why you fail. The story itself provides facts. There can be speculation as to why these facts do or do not result in the logical conclusions, but the speculation which uses the facts must be given credence greater than the speculation which invents epileptic trees.
MarbitChow wrote:Vanna entered into a link. [...] You can certainly use her as an example of a mercenary caster, but other motivations that can be equally strong that could convince her to enter the link.
Or I could decide not to speculate on her motivations, and I could just cite the fact that she entered into service as a linked caster as a point against all those who have simply decided that casters would not hire themselves out as members of a link, even though the only piece of evidence the comic provides proves them wrong.
MarbitChow wrote:They [casters] have no motivations to try it again just for the cash.
That word you keep using, I do not think it means what you think it means... Please provide any citation of fact that anyone within the story would not like to have plenty of shmuckers. You cannot. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and will await your basis in fact.
MarbitChow wrote:We have the following facts supporting our position:
1) Caster links are risky. Casters typically don't enter them unless ordered to, or they feel very comfortable with the thinkamancer due to previous links and fewer participants.
2) The casters involved in the creation of the SPW scroll had ulterior motives besides cash. They gladly took the cash, but casting additional variations of this scroll could undermine their efforts.
I'll start by dispelling your misinformation. Caster links have been said to be risky, yes. That being a fact does not make your point 1) accurate. Citing one fact doesn't make the citation of other, inaccurate facts suddenly correct. Where is your basis for claiming that casters "typically" don't enter into links unless ordered to? You're equivocating, because you've offered the exact circumstances of Sizemore and Maggie linking voluntarily and without any orders as your supposed evidence that this is an uncommon event. I'll turn it around and claim that this is evidence that casters do indeed link without orders, and that there is no evidence that this isn't commonplace.
Your point 2) is based upon the creators of the SPW scroll having a single purpose. We know that this is not the case. Claiming that making the same profit for additional item creation is somehow "undermining their efforts" can only apply to some of the participants, and the others may well look for replacement casters if for unknown reasons some of the original casters are reluctant to repeat what must appear to the others to be a very profitable item creation. Since the MK is not a monolithic block, this should not be a difficult task.

Also, please provide any evidence that Vanna feels "very comfortable with the thinkamancer due to previous links and fewer participants". Please prove that she has ever been hired by Charlie in the past. Please prove that she has ever linked with Charlie in the past. In fact, the only evidence we have from the story is that she promised not to be hired by any non-royal. This doesn't mean that she can't break that promise, of course. Or allow herself to be hired by a royal using Charlie's money. But it also doesn't provide any basis for speculation about her past or present relationship with Charlie.
MarbitChow wrote:You have the following facts supporting your position:
1) A scroll that was sold for 350,000 created, as a side effect of casting, an item that was worth 500,000 or more.
2) Everyone needs money.
That is a reasonable summation of the opening of my position. What I'd like to understand is why, since points 1) and 2) are accurate and irrefutable, that this isn't being used as an economic engine by the same or other persons. I will not accept supposition as a reason. The story is either logically consistent, or it is not. The reasons this money making engine are not exploited by one or more factions/sides/groups are either explained or the story lacks internal consistency until such time as this logical flaw is explained. You can decide to make up justifications all day long, nothing you or anyone else has invented holds water against the very real benefits of the very real story mechanics already described in the making of the SPW scroll and the value of the items it brought to GK vs. the cost of the scroll.
MarbitChow wrote:But I don't feel the need to rebut you point for point, since you tend to use impossible standards ("What we don't have is any evidence that Isaac spends time building his experimental devices at the expense of his upkeep needs") to counter your opponents assertions.
Ah, now I'm setting impossible standards when I ask that people provide real evidence rather than simply deciding that something must be so and denying all facts drawn straight from the source material which contradicts their invented conclusions... How convenient! The facts I use are just too impossibly difficult to argue against, and it is unfair that I use these facts and don't invent crap that can easily be pointed out as being invented.

MarbitChow wrote:If the story seems inconsistent to you because you are upset that it is not filled with strippers [...]
The classic ad hominem is the perfect conclusion to your post. I must be wrong, because I'm just looking for strippers and complaining that there aren't enough of them in the story. Sweet.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Oberon » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:00 am

ftl wrote:All that discussion of capitalism fails, badly, at answering that question. In fact, it predicts the *opposite*, that we *would* see lots of these. And doesn't at all address the question of why we don't.
You have asked the exact same question I have asked. The question of why we don't see repetitions of past behaviors within the comic is exactly the point.

If Wanda can have a "private stash" of scrolls, then why doesn't Pierce, or Ace? In TBfGK the use of Wanda's scrolls was instrumental in the second or third last of the last stands, why then doesn't Cubbins pull out a bunch of scrolls and start blasting archons? Why doesn't Ace have some sweet scrolls to combo with his accessories? Why doesn't Maggie or Sizemore or Jack have their own "private stash" of scrolls? Why didn't Misty have a private stash of scrolls which was inherited by one of the other GK casters? And if the SPW scroll brings 150k profit on top of a perfect warlord and a magic weapon, why isn't it being replicated?

These are logical questions, and they deserve logical answers. Invented motivations, fabricated restrictions, and illogical story telling tropes need not apply.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby ftl » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:25 am

Oberon wrote:
ftl wrote:All that discussion of capitalism fails, badly, at answering that question. In fact, it predicts the *opposite*, that we *would* see lots of these. And doesn't at all address the question of why we don't.
You have asked the exact same question I have asked. The question of why we don't see repetitions of past behaviors within the comic is exactly the point.

If Wanda can have a "private stash" of scrolls, then why doesn't Pierce, or Ace? In TBfGK the use of Wanda's scrolls was instrumental in the second or third last of the last stands, why then doesn't Cubbins pull out a bunch of scrolls and start blasting archons? Why doesn't Ace have some sweet scrolls to combo with his accessories? Why doesn't Maggie or Sizemore or Jack have their own "private stash" of scrolls? Why didn't Misty have a private stash of scrolls which was inherited by one of the other GK casters? And if the SPW scroll brings 150k profit on top of a perfect warlord and a magic weapon, why isn't it being replicated?

These are logical questions, and they deserve logical answers. Invented motivations, fabricated restrictions, and illogical story telling tropes need not apply.


We have not seen an in-story answer.

Therefore, invented motivations and fabricated restrictions is what we must draw on for the best answers we can get. We infer motivations from what we've seen the characters say, infer restrictions from the fact that these scrolls aren't cropping up every other page, and so on and so forth.

You, as far as I can tell, have not provided any answers at all. Maybe I'm wrong and you have; if you have, could you repeat them please, because I missed them. Most of your points seem to be detailed discussions of why scrolls like this SHOULD be being replicated, with no discussion of WHY THEY AREN'T.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Lamech » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:31 am

Oberon wrote:Also, please provide any evidence that Vanna feels "very comfortable with the thinkamancer due to previous links and fewer participants". Please prove that she has ever been hired by Charlie in the past. Please prove that she has ever linked with Charlie in the past. In fact, the only evidence we have from the story is that she promised not to be hired by any non-royal. This doesn't mean that she can't break that promise, of course. Or allow herself to be hired by a royal using Charlie's money. But it also doesn't provide any basis for speculation about her past or present relationship with Charlie.
Vanna likely has another motive in addition to money. Revenge. Also I find it highly unlikely that Vanna just happened to be the best turnamancer in the whole of the MK.
MarbitChow wrote:
You have the following facts supporting your position:
1) A scroll that was sold for 350,000 created, as a side effect of casting, an item that was worth 500,000 or more.
2) Everyone needs money.

That is a reasonable summation of the opening of my position. What I'd like to understand is why, since points 1) and 2) are accurate and irrefutable, that this isn't being used as an economic engine by the same or other persons. I will not accept supposition as a reason. The story is either logically consistent, or it is not. The reasons this money making engine are not exploited by one or more factions/sides/groups are either explained or the story lacks internal consistency until such time as this logical flaw is explained. You can decide to make up justifications all day long, nothing you or anyone else has invented holds water against the very real benefits of the very real story mechanics already described in the making of the SPW scroll and the value of the items it brought to GK vs. the cost of the scroll.
See here's the thing shmuckers aren't money to the casters of the MK anymore than food is money to you or I. Once they can secure a big enough supply they don't need more. Casters are super-valuable they can't possibly have any trouble finding someone to work for, at no risk work. And indeed we see most casters acting fairly unconcerned about securing a cash supply. They hold Hippie parties, debates, big temples to block out Charlie ect.
Now for why this isn't an economic engine? The spell got lucky with the bracer specifically. Had Parson say... lost his watch in a bet earlier in the day the artifact would not have made the bracer to interface with it. More to the point the bracer runs on things they have no idea about (calculator watches). Now why don't people sell scrolls to summon perfect warlords and sell them? Umm... the predictamancers/thinkamancers already have their savior. No need to call up someone to ruin everything. So the MK is out. Most sides don't run links for the hell of it. And even if a side had the right casters and was willing to risk them in a link they would need to choose the right link. No deciding to link with a findamancer and a luckamancer. And the non-MK side might need casters of comparable quality to the best of the MK people, or worse need comparable numbers.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby ftl » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:43 am

That is a reasonable summation of the opening of my position. What I'd like to understand is why, since points 1) and 2) are accurate and irrefutable, that this isn't being used as an economic engine by the same or other persons.


Lets summarize again.

1) A scroll that was sold for 350,000 created, as a side effect of casting, an item that was worth 500,000 or more.
2) Everyone needs money.
3) ??!!??!!?? Maybe something here, a reason or motivations or a mechanic ??!!??!!??
4) However these scrolls seem to be rare, caster hiring isn't common, buying scrolls comes up rarely.

For the universe to be consistent, something has to go in slot (3) to bridge the gap between (1,2) and (4), since without anything there the universe is inconsistent. We are speculating as to what that could be. We don't know what it is; we haven't explicitly seen a definitive (3) in-story, as far as I know. We're left to infer and guess at what (3) is. Maybe it's some motivation of the casters (which we can guess at, based on what the casters we've seen have done). Maybe it's some restriction (which we again can take educated guesses about).

I will not accept supposition as a reason. The story is either logically consistent, or it is not.


The story can be logically consistent without us KNOWING FOR SURE what (3) is. There can be an in-universe answer THAT WE HAVEN'T HAD EXPLICITLY WRITTEN OUT FOR US. We're trying to figure out what it is.

The reasons this money making engine are not exploited by one or more factions/sides/groups are either explained or the story lacks internal consistency until such time as this logical flaw is explained.


Disagree. There are THREE options.

1) The reasons for this money making engine could be absent or contradictory, and then the story is inconsistent.
2) The reasons for this money making engine could be explained, and then the story is consistent.
3) The reasons for this money making engine could be present in the universe but never explicitly stated in the story, thus leaving a consistent story with unanswered questions.

I think it's obviously not (2), since we haven't seen an explicit explanation of why casters are so reclusive. I think it's obviously not (1), because there's enough possibilities (such as the ones discussed in this thread) that Rob can easily pick one of them, write it out, and make it canon without contradicting anything that's been published (thus, the story isn't inconsistent yet).

I think it's quite clearly 3, which you don't seem to even recognize as an option, which is why this argument is dragging on like this.

You can decide to make up justifications all day long, nothing you or anyone else has invented holds water against the very real benefits of the very real story mechanics already described in the making of the SPW scroll and the value of the items it brought to GK vs. the cost of the scroll.


You can argue against potential justifications all day long, but nothing you say holds water against the fact that something has to go in slot (3). People are proposing plausible though not proven options. Saying "but it's not proven" doesn't make any point at all - we KNOW it hasn't been shown and proven in-story, so we're trying to FIGURE IT OUT.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby drachefly » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:22 am

Oberon wrote:
drachefly wrote:But hey, if you're so confident, how about you go over to the amateur predictamancy thread and take up the bet.
I don't often stray into predictions. I work with facts.


The thing is, by using the terms 'epileptic tree' and 'tinfoil hat' you're making a prediction. You're saying that these possibilities are so unlikely that taking them seriously is insane. Now, it's likely that you haven't, despite my serious efforts, realized how strong the terms you were using were. If so, I imagine you can say you didn't mean that, and stop using the terms, and this argument will get a lot calmer very quickly.

If it is what you meant, own it.


(by the way, this is the basis for The.Healing.Mage's claim concerning the forum rule. I'm willing to extend the possibility that you don't know what you're saying)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:33 am

Oberon wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:If the story seems inconsistent to you because you are upset that it is not filled with strippers [...]
The classic ad hominem is the perfect conclusion to your post. I must be wrong, because I'm just looking for strippers and complaining that there aren't enough of them in the story. Sweet.

It's not an ad hominem. It's an analogy. The 'strippers' that are missing in my hypothetical story directly correlates to the additional SPW scrolls that are also missing in the current story. It's a direct refutation of the logic of your post. I'm not saying that your argument is bad because you like strippers. I like strippers, too. They're people, just like everyone else.

It's nice of you to set the requirements that only facts are allowed. But that's not the requirement for winning this discussion. Ours is the stronger position: we know that there are no other scrolls. We just have to come up with plausible reasons to explain their lack of existence.

You must prove to us that:
1) There exists a team of at least one findamancer, one thinkamancer, and one other appropriate caster (I forget the type offhand) who know how to create the scroll
2) These casters know that the scroll summons items worth more than the scroll's cost
3) These casters are not part of the existing conspiracy

Please cite references. If you cannot, then by the basis of your own criteria, you cannot even prove that it is possible for the SPW to be cast.

I assert that those who created it the first time would not summon competition for Parson, as it would counter the purpose of creating the scroll in the first place, so we eliminate the current conspiracy from casting it again. In order for your logic to be sound, you must cite established characters in the text that fill the above criteria.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:40 am

Oberon wrote:So, a real world example: The US refuses to trade with Cuba. (please, I know there are exceptions, this is a generalization with all the flaws of a generalization when countered by a specific example) Does this mean, ZOMG!!! That US farmers will starve without this market? Nope. Hasn't meant that for over 50 years.

Precisely. Like the USA doesn't feel like selling nukes and high-tech military to Cuba or pretty much anyone, the MK won't sell super artifacts and scrolls just for money. Wanda was carefully selected to buy the scroll, and she alone because they believed she would be the best one to acomplish their objectives of peace in Erfworld. That's an undeniable fact explicitly presented in a text update.

Oberon wrote:Also, I'm tired of hearing that HEALOMANCERS ARE REFUSING TO SELL HEALING SCROLLS TO GOBWIN KNOB! as if this is a fact. The exact quote this claim is based upon is Maggie saying "Given that certain scrolls are becoming harder to obtain, Lady Firebaugh is requesting permission to croak the foolamancer and animate him as well." If anything is true it is that the MK is not a monolithic block. Some casters may have decided not to sell to GK, but that cannot be all casters. Healomancy scrolls may be "harder to obtain", but harder does not mean impossible.

It's become hard enough that Wanda would rather start leting her close friends die than use the few precious remaining healing scrolls she has.

So right now an healomancy scroll is more valuable than a master mancer from Wanda's perspective. That's pretty damn valuable.

Oberon wrote: But those incorrectly using this reference would have everyone believe that the MK has shut down all services to GK, and this could not be farther from the truth. We have evidence that at least one and perhaps more MK factions are actively supporting GK.


Good thing you finally admited that. You see, why would the MK factions that actively support GK would want to make the other sides of Erfworld stronger by supplying them with powerful artifacts and super warlords? Because the mancers that suport GK are the only ones that know how to make the SPW scroll.

So let's see what happens if they try to follow your blind capitalism:
-Mass produce SPW scrolls.
-Sell powerful artifacts to other sides for excess smuckers that the mancers can only spend in food (and they only need that much food).
-Now the MK mancers have useless piles of smuckers that they really don't need, and GK's enemies have powerful artifacts to make Hamster's work that much harder.
-No profit at all.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby drachefly » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:14 am

MarbitChow wrote:We have the following facts supporting our position:

2) The casters involved in the creation of the SPW scroll had ulterior motives besides cash. They gladly took the cash, but casting additional variations of this scroll could undermine their efforts.


Cite this, please. I think this is likely; it is not certain.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:40 am

drachefly wrote:Cite this, please. I think this is likely; it is not certain.


Book 2 – Text Updates 037 wrote:Marie would know. At the roots of it, this was her plan. "What Hippiemancy neeeeds, Jonnis my true friend, is da one thin it con't evah have. A warlord. A souljah!"

It must have taken thirty turns before Marie had wrapped Janis' head around the idea of a warlord who would fight against war itself, and another twenty before she could imagine one who might be good enough to win.

So they'd made it happen, without fuss, without hassles, and in secret. Janis had connections. She was listened to. Thanks to her, they pulled off the link-up without giving away the real aim. The Predictamancers all knew, of course. The Thinkamancers only sort of thought they knew. Hubble (the Lookamancer in the link-up) knew, but he was no trouble. And Janis knew.

http://www.erfworld.com/page/30/

I'll grant you that you can read this a number of ways. Since the actual casters involved in the creation are not explicitly named (other than Hubble), it is possible that some involved did not have ulterior motives other than cash. The people who orchestrated it, however, did, and have reason to both avoid casting it again and take pains to prevent others from doing so as well. Since the thinkamancers are at least partially involved in the conspiracy, it is unlikely that they will allow another such link to be formed.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby effataigus » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:29 am

I'm always impressed when people argue by focusing discussion on where the source of the disagreement is rather than just countering point for point. There have been some good examples of this (from ftl and others).

I would add that, for me at least, the burden of proof is on the person arguing that Erfworld is self-inconsistent. Others disagree with this assumption, and you'll save yourself a lot of time by figuring out whether the person you're arguing with does or does not early on.

If everyone here agrees with this assumption, then it is sufficient if someone (Oberon, here) proves that there are no plausible reasons for SPW scrolls to not be being sold.

However, I'm not sure that "the story is logically-inconsistent" is the main case that Oberon is making. I believe he at least once phrased his case along the lines of "given x and y, one wonders why not z." This is a perfectly reasonable conclusion, as I am personally still left wondering which of the many plausible reasons is the reason more SPW scrolls aren't being sold, if they aren't. It seems like most of the source of the argument comes from the point by point countering of various arguments.

Re: Drachefly's point about language, Oberon has posted on numerous occasions that his online rhetoric comes off as far more confrontational than it is meant to. On the rare occasions that I am actually arguing against someone's position (and not their evidence) I find that the same applies for my word choice. I find it's best to just assume that most people online mean what they say to be read less confrontationally than it could be. For instance: ftl's or Olescamo's all caps could be read as hostile yelling, but they are better read as "dramatic emphasis."

Re: Bland's point... indeed, it is probably appropriate for a storyteller to go out of his/her way to provide reasons that various mechanics aren't abused. I feel like Erfworld has made a point of retroactively explaining certain observations... mostly using Parson's internal dialog. Without these moments, one is left wondering, despite many many plausible explanations, why Frodo couldn't catch a ride to Mount Doom on an Eagle (to use a forum favorite example). Perhaps Oberon's point is simply that more clarity on this question would help the story hold together even better than it already does.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:44 pm

As far as I can tell, the root of the disagreement is that, while plausible reasons can be put forth, they are not supported by canon.

The disagreement then stems (har har) on what "plausible" vs. "tinfoil hat" looks like, and what "supported by canon" means.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby drachefly » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:46 pm



Thank you. I remembered the quote, but not the context, and not what had been explicitly stated about her involvement.

At this point, I can't see any way around it. Is there one?

Effatagius wrote:I find it's best to just assume that most people online mean what they say to be read less confrontationally than it could be.
Sure, but there are limits to this. Eventually you have to suspect that people mean what they say, especially when they reiterate it over and over and generally act exactly like they mean what they say. I did even in the end suggest that perhaps he didn't mean this; but if he wants a quality discussion, he's going to make at least some effort to use terms that are actually appropriate to what he's trying to communicate, no?

The reason I brought up SD.net was because a tactic accepted and even frequently used by the administration and moderators - avowedly, even, so this isn't making accusations behind their backs or anything - is to insult the opponent to make them argue worse.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:52 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:As far as I can tell, the root of the disagreement is that, while plausible reasons can be put forth, they are not supported by canon.

The disagreement then stems (har har) on what "plausible" vs. "tinfoil hat" looks like, and what "supported by canon" means.


I'm pretty sure that "whole text update dedicated to it" counts as "supported by canon".

This is, we have one of those where Janis takes her sweet time to show the readers how the SPW scroll took a lot of colaboration, manipulation and effort to pull out, and how they planed to give it to Wanda alone all that time.

And yet some people will fully ignore the canon and just decide SPW scrolls can be mass produced by anyone with a flick of the wrist.

Completely ignoring of course that even normal scrolls are a rare and precious commodity (otherwise every damn caster would be carrying some dozens of those into battle), let alone nuke scrolls that demanded a conspiration from a sizeable chunk of the MK to pull off.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:54 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:As far as I can tell, the root of the disagreement is that, while plausible reasons can be put forth, they are not supported by canon.

Actually, I'd go so far as to say, at this point, that the burden of proof is on those who say there should be more than one SPW scroll created for the purposes of generating revenue.

* The number of people who know about the value of the bracer is limited. Outside of GK, only Charlie, and now possibly Slately and Tram, are aware of it's existence and value. I'll require citations as evidence to show that anyone else is aware of the item.
* Those who have the knowledge to create the SPW scroll have a strong incentive to have only one in existence. If there are 2 (or more) Perfect Warlords, you undermine your own actions. I'll require evidence that there are established characters who have both knowledge and capability to create the scroll that are not involved in the initial creation.
* You have to establish that the SPW scroll has a creation cost of less than 500,000. As Oberon has pointed out, we don't know how much it costs to create. The motivations of the creators have shown to be powerful: nothing less than peace on Erfworld. It is quite plausible that they would create the scroll for a loss in order to achieve their goals (or that they intended to break even by casting it for the additional 150,000). So, you must prove that the creation cost of the scroll is actually broken - that it's cost is in fact less than the cost of the items and creatures it summons.

Unless you can fulfill these three criteria, I'll apply Oberon's criteria, and say that YOU FAIL. :D

Based on this analysis, there is only one person who I can see who meets all the criteria to even be able to pull this off - Knowledge, Resources, Motive: Charlie. Since Charlie has not yet created it, to our knowledge, I find it safe to say that it would not reasonably be created otherwise.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Ansan Gotti » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:05 pm

MarbitChow is officially my new favorite poster.

That is all, carry on.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Oberon » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:30 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:This is, we have one of those where Janis takes her sweet time to show the readers how the SPW scroll took a lot of colaboration, manipulation and effort to pull out, and how they planed to give it to Wanda alone all that time.
I have no issue with this. It makes good sense that, to use an analogy, it takes a lot more time and effort to create an Aston Martin than it does to create a Yugo.
oslecamo2_temp wrote:And yet some people will fully ignore the canon and just decide SPW scrolls can be mass produced by anyone with a flick of the wrist.
Here I'll have to protest that I never used those words, nor trivialized the effort described above. I simply stated that the MK is not a monolithic block and that what can be done once, and especially for 350k smuckers, can be done again. To continue my analogy from above, you'll note that both Yugo and Aston Martin mass produced their vehicles.
drachefly wrote:The thing is, by using the terms 'epileptic tree' and 'tinfoil hat' you're making a prediction. You're saying that these possibilities are so unlikely that taking them seriously is insane. Now, it's likely that you haven't, despite my serious efforts, realized how strong the terms you were using were. If so, I imagine you can say you didn't mean that, and stop using the terms, and this argument will get a lot calmer very quickly.
I've done this once already. If it helps, I'll try again. I use the term "epileptic tree" to mean: A theory which appears to use only guesswork for its basis. I don't know where you decide to call them insane, I have not used the term, but perhaps you infer it in your definition of epileptic tree. Here is the definition as per TVTropes. It doesn't match my definition point for point, but it's close. Some folks more recently have begun tying actual story elements into their positions. This begins to chop down the epileptic forest.
MarbitChow wrote:Actually, I'd go so far as to say, at this point, that the burden of proof is on those who say there should be more than one SPW scroll created for the purposes of generating revenue.
No one can prove to you that the refrigerator light is actually out when you close the door if you refuse to believe it. I can show you the off switch which is activated by the closing door, demonstrate to you that it functions by pressing it with my finger while the door is open, and you can still decide that the light is on when the door is closed based upon some theory you aren't willing to surrender. I've proven that the economic engine exists. All else is speculation about the relative need of MK casters for money, vast conspiracies, and other guesswork. Feel free to decide that speculation and epileptic trees are more valid than things which actually happened in the story and their actual cited values. For me, I'll need a reason within the story that explains why more SPW or similar magics are not created for the clear profit they bring.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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