Book 2 – Page 63

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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Occasional Sage » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:20 pm

Avens wrote:
Occasional Sage wrote:Except you know that's not what happened if you actually, oh I dunno, READ the story you're paraphrasing, right? But even if it WAS an accurate recount, with their instory knowledge it wouldn't have been as bad a decision.

God, Gen. 3:22 wrote:The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

Take as you will.

Also, if Parson is a Wild Card, does that mean the spell might place him back inside the deck, and if so, do we know who the dealer might be who holds the cards?

Personally, I'd tell Jojo to toss the scroll, step back, let it fall, and then run through the portal.


My comment was targeted at the concept of Satan being involved in the whole affair, playing some elaborate Xanatos Gambit to wreck everything bwahahaha. Elaine Pagels' The Origin of Satan is a handy reference for this; there wasn't a Devil in Jewish or Christian cosmology until centuries after that particular Book was written.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Beeskee » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:37 pm

So, apparently Parson can be dispelled or unsummoned. Or, at least, that's what Jojo seems to be implying. Question is, does he want to be? I don't think I recall Parson ever actually looking for a way back home, aside from the occasional arm-pinch to make sure he wasn't dreaming back in the beginning.

I wonder if Jojo (or his mysterious backer, who is probably Charlie) anticipated that possibility. Then again, he may be able to cast it if Parson turns to leave, so Parson might be kinda stuck for a little while until he figures something out.


I love Jojo's response to the wounding statement, too. It sounds like something one of the carnival folks in Girl Genius would say. The protest itself is part of a game, to trick the person making the accusation into feeling bad. Parson doesn't buy it for a second and Jojo cops to it instantly anyway, but it's still pretty funny.


effataigus wrote:Hey, where *are* the thinkamancers?


They're thinking real hard about whether they want to enter a tunnel supposedly containing the most dangerous being in all of Erfworld. :D



oslecamo2_temp wrote:Full-magic block? Well, that Staff of Suckage sure is a quite powerful item.


I don't think Jojo meant the staff had 100% magic resist or anything like that, I think it's more that Parson holding the staff counts as blocking, so he'd get a 'saving throw' or the Erfworld equiv. Dropping the staff would count as being a willing recipient and the spell would be guaranteed to work. (Sort of like a willing spell recipient in D&D. You don't have to make a saving throw to avoid a heal spell that you want cast on you.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:39 pm

Lamech wrote:
Kreistor wrote:I suspect this is just a retcon, and the Staff has up until this point simply never been defined. It has not displayed any unique power up until this point, so it could be redefined without consequence. My complaints are relatively minor, since there is no reason to keep or get rid of it at any of these points I mention. We can invent details to justify each incident, but all that does is serve to hamper the author.
Even if we conclude that Parson's staff and Wanda's staff are different they could be completely different items. One has the enchantment of suckage, the other has the enchantment of shield.
But even if we did assume they are the same, she wouldn't take a staff to thriller since you don't dance thriller with a staff. Indeed she has no weapon at all, not even a sword. But even IF we assume its a crappy melee weapon and that is why she didn't bring it to thriller it still makes sense. She may not have considered Ansom a threat for several reasons: she has better combat points, a team of units or the fact that she is a croakamancer could have meant she didn't think Ansom would be an issue. And if Ansom's not a threat only the the archons are a threat. So she would only be concerned with Ansom hiring achons and attacking her.


Indeed, the staff seems to be the thing that saved her from being nuked to death.

And I'll have to agree that equiping yourself with apropriate equipment has been shown to help you dance-fight.

Stanley, his KISS and the other royal rockers all use axes for guitars when rocking out. Even Ansom puts down the pliers when doing the dance-dance revolution.

And then there's the simple fact the staff broke when Wanda fell so of course she couldn't use it anymore.

Hmm, does this means broken equipment repairs itself at dawn? Or did they just buy a new one?

Beeskee:
We already saw the staff blocking the anti-air nukes from the archons, and those things are just mean. Even if it's not 100% resistance, it's still a pretty damn good bonus.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Kreistor » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:50 pm

bpzinn wrote:Also, even that aside, I don't think it would work. There is no choreography for using a staff when dancing to thriller. If wearing equipment appropriate to a dance fighting style is either necessary or gives a bonus, using something out of place could give a penalty or prevent use of that dance entirely.


While the initial image of Thriller shows zombies weaponless, later images show they retain their weapons while actually in melee. Further, Royal side fighters retain their weapons when dancing to Ansom's tune. Ansom does not carry the pliers in his hands, but neither is he in danger of melee.

We do know that some items are better in different situations. (Book 2, Text 20, the bride of Frankenstein wig-helmet was for dancefighting. Arkenhammer permits Rocking Out.) While Thriller is certainly appropriate to zombies, I'm not going to put Balder above a scene of zombies dancing the can-can, kicking their enemies around with umbrellas in their hands. Let's not forget the humour value of mocking the traditional. Heh, could Wanda do that with the Archons she's got now? There've been some dance scenes in comedy horror movies. Rocky Horror, IIRC includes some accessories in the dances.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby CaptC » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:53 pm

Sometimes these discussions get WAY too metaphysical. It's still a game, or game-like enough that game logic works. So, the simplest explanation for why Wanda stopped using the staff, expressed in game terms:

"The Staff and the Pliers require the same equipment slot."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Beeskee » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:56 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Beeskee:We already saw the staff blocking the anti-air nukes from the archons, and those things are just mean. Even if it's not 100% resistance, it's still a pretty damn good bonus.


Yeah but the conversation was starting to drift towards "omfg staff > all magic" and I don't think that's the case. If nothing else, it's unbalanced, and everyone would be using something like that. Wanda got hit with that nuke from the Archons and it dirtied her up a bit (scuff marks indicating minor damage, etc) but it also broke her skull helmet. I'm thinking certain objects can resist, deflect, or absorb magic, but too strong of a hit will destroy the item. Then again, better to lose an item that can be more easily replaced than a valuable warlord or caster.

I didn't mean the staff had no magical blocking abilities either, just that I don't think it's 100%. Or if it is, the staff might break after absorbing a hard hit. Then again everything Jojo said may be a complete lie to get Parson to drop the staff.


CaptC wrote:Sometimes these discussions get WAY too metaphysical. It's still a game, or game-like enough that game logic works. So, the simplest explanation for why Wanda stopped using the staff, expressed in game terms:

"The Staff and the Pliers require the same equipment slot."



I was thinking something similar, that Wanda can only effectively use one weapon at a time. She isn't a dual-wielding warlord, she's a caster. An Uber caster but still...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:11 pm

Beeskee wrote:
CaptC wrote:Sometimes these discussions get WAY too metaphysical. It's still a game, or game-like enough that game logic works. So, the simplest explanation for why Wanda stopped using the staff, expressed in game terms:

"The Staff and the Pliers require the same equipment slot."



I was thinking something similar, that Wanda can only effectively use one weapon at a time. She isn't a dual-wielding warlord, she's a caster. An Uber caster but still...

Sigh, that was precisely what I said on my first post in this thread, that Wanda wasn't carrying the staff because the pliers already take both her hands... :roll:

Plus the helmet broke and she got the bruises when Wanda fell on the ground.

And that's why it wouldn't be unbalanced for it to be 100% magic block. Casters are very rarely seen in the frontlines, so you usually don't have to worry about magic attacks. On the other hand there's plenty of guys with sharp things trying to stab you to death, so it will almost always be best to grab a two-handed sword/spear/axe with good damage and start stabbing back.

Of course, if you're running trough the magic kingdom or facing an archon fleet, it suddenly looks quite OP, but again, as situational as you can get.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby boegiboe » Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:14 pm

kouhoutek wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:Full-magic block? Well, that Staff of Suckage sure is a quite powerful item. One can only wondr why Wanda didn't take it to the field.


In a lot of magic systems, anti-magic items are a two way street...blocks spells cast *on* you and spells cast *by* you.


We've already seen Wanda using the Staff of Suckage. Twice, even, and only now does the first one make sense to me. In this update (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F120.jpg), she sucks the 'pliers to the Staff, allowing Ansom to be disarmed (I could never understand what she had "done to them"). And shortly afterward, the Staff automatically blocks an archon's blast, but allows Wanda's mount to be blasted out from under her (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F121.jpg). Wanda's fall broke the Staff, but clearly it has been repaired or replaced.

EDIT: Meh, my browser didn't update, and y'all already talked this one out. Sorry about that. I'm leaving this in case no one mentioned the Staff sucking the Arkenpliers, though, since that was quite a revelation for me.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby bpzinn » Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:29 pm

Kreistor wrote:
While the initial image of Thriller shows zombies weaponless, later images show they retain their weapons while actually in melee. Further, Royal side fighters retain their weapons when dancing to Ansom's tune. Ansom does not carry the pliers in his hands, but neither is he in danger of melee.

We do know that some items are better in different situations. (Book 2, Text 20, the bride of Frankenstein wig-helmet was for dancefighting. Arkenhammer permits Rocking Out.) While Thriller is certainly appropriate to zombies, I'm not going to put Balder above a scene of zombies dancing the can-can, kicking their enemies around with umbrellas in their hands. Let's not forget the humour value of mocking the traditional. Heh, could Wanda do that with the Archons she's got now? There've been some dance scenes in comedy horror movies. Rocky Horror, IIRC includes some accessories in the dances.


I am not seeing it as a limitation on dance fighting in general, but with using a staff with "Thriller" in particular. I sort of see each type of dance fighting as similar to a martial art form, or fighting style. each can have its own required, recommended, and allowed form weapons/equipment. Some like the maracena or the chicken dance would require more along the lines of "hands free" If you were dance fighting to the three stooges, staffs, and anything else similar to a 2x4 (i.e. you can turn around and hit someone upside the head with it) would be perfectly acceptable.

But if you try to use a staff to perform "Thriller" I would expect you would either get a less effective thriller, or something else entirely, which Wanda may or may not be able to get her undead minions to dance...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:30 pm

boegiboe wrote:EDIT: Meh, my browser didn't update, and y'all already talked this one out. Sorry about that. I'm leaving this in case no one mentioned the Staff sucking the Arkenpliers, though, since that was quite a revelation for me.


Oh, I had forgoten about that one! That would be the staff definetely blocking magic like nobody's business, since how otherwise could squishy mancer Wanda block a direct blow from an artifact wielded by a 10th level royal chief warlord? I remember seeing much speculation about that incident and people claiming it was because the pliers would not hurt their destined bearer.

Ansom don't recognizing it probably means it's a rare (and expensive) magic item.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Ambug666 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:40 pm

How does JoJo know that it's called The Staff of Suckage?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Berserkas » Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:45 pm

Hmm, does this means broken equipment repairs itself at dawn? Or did they just buy a new one?


Buy? Don't think it works that way in Erfworld.

We already know many casters can make magic items, according to their discipline. The staff looks very Croak-a-mantish, (skull and all) it's probably made by Wanda. And she probably fixed/made a new one after the battle.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Glome » Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:47 pm

Ambug666 wrote:How does JoJo know that it's called The Staff of Suckage?


Because he did his research, and it is an item Wanda has used in the past. It may not even be unique, maybe there is someone in the magic kingdom selling Staves of Suckage for the right price.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Jabberwocky » Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:57 pm

I'm sure Mrs. Gotti taught her son about taking candy from strangers.

And if Carnymancy is about rigging the game, then all the obvious options are going to be screw jobs. Gordian knot time! Cut off Jojo's head and put it on a stick.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Beeskee » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:04 pm

boegiboe wrote:In this update (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F120.jpg), she sucks the 'pliers to the Staff, allowing Ansom to be disarmed (I could never understand what she had "done to them").



Okay, that is an incredible catch. Maybe the staff does disable magic. Heh, it 'sucks' it up.

Now that we have some actual canon backing it up, I think the staff is a lot more powerful.


Re-reading the next comic, I was wrong about her helmet breaking, that's the staff in the background behind Wanda. It looked like a piece breaking off the first time I read it. Tho it doesn't technically matter for any of the earlier discussion I did. lol. :D
Last edited by Beeskee on Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Lamech » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:07 pm

Berserkas wrote:
Hmm, does this means broken equipment repairs itself at dawn? Or did they just buy a new one?


Buy? Don't think it works that way in Erfworld.

We already know many casters can make magic items, according to their discipline. The staff looks very Croak-a-mantish, (skull and all) it's probably made by Wanda. And she probably fixed/made a new one after the battle.

Wanda is a croakamancer and she has nothing to uncroak, and she seems to prefer smacking to blasting for combat so... I'm going to guess the only thing she has to do with her juice is make magic toys.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby gameboy1234 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:31 pm

I like this. Jojo is talking about beating Fate and undoing the spell that summoned Parson. Back in book one, the scroll of Summon Perfect Warlord was described as heavy Fate magic. Nice consistency there.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby TiresiasBC » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:33 pm

I signed on for what may be my first forum post just to say how awesome that Beatles reference is.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Beeskee » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:49 pm

TiresiasBC wrote:I signed on for what may be my first forum post just to say how awesome that Beatles reference is.


Welcome to the forums. ^.^


...hmm. I don't know if we give anything out here. I have some gift baskets from other forums though.

Would you like a Fishy Stick or some haggis?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Sieggy » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:52 pm

I really can't see why Parson would want to return to Stupidworld . . . in the opener, he says very specifically and unambiguously that if he were given the chance to go do that voodoo that he do so well, he'd jump for it in a snap <insert snapping fingers>>PLOTZ!<<remove Parson>. However, he's discovered the downside of the Rule of Toyota (You asked for it, you got it, Toyota . . .) and that the reality is much scarier than his theoretical gaming. Which has forced him to confront his deepest personal demons - the fact that he has to accept responsibility for those serving under him. He wants to be a Player - but a Player wouldn't care a whit about units expended. After all, that's their function, eh? A Player has no conscience - losing a pawn is no big deal. Parson is more than that. He's introducing a 'human' element that (at least from the narrative thus far) is anecdotal. Perhaps Parson's greatest impact on Erfworld will be that he's the first Commander to actually think about the lives of those he's commanding.

This is more a test of his duty, loyalty, and sense of self-determination than anything else. Which is why Janis & Marie need to get involved with this discussion - if Parson were to return to Stupidworld, it would first destroy the plot devised by TGMTTA and all of Janis & Marie's scheming, and as an aside, effectively end the comic. So, Parson's going nowhere (at least for the moment), but this issue needs to be worked out before he proceeds to JS. I'd love to see Jo-jo join up with Parson, if only to watch he and Jack interact

If Marie's not behind Jeftichew's appearance, then it must be Charlie, and if it's Charlie, then he's chosen a very peculiar approach. Especially since Parson is in the process of validating his root beliefs - that Erf units are more than 'merely' units, and that his duty and responsibility to them are as great as their responsibility to him and the side he represents. And THAT may be the great gamechanger - that duty is a two way street, and duty is owed to those below as well as those above. Thus far, it only seems to flow uphill . . .
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