Book 2 – Text Updates 051

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby The Minx » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:56 am

Sieggy wrote:Sylvia, though . . . now, THERE'S a warrior! Professional, focused, courageous, and daring.


Sylvia is being anything but professional right now. She's a fanatical devotee, professionals are wise enough to consider their own protection during battle. Ansom was being professional when he doubted the whole "fate is on our side" spiel and planned accordingly. Too bad his column was outmatched by Jillian, but that doesn't change that he acted in a professional manner to the best of his ability, given the resources he had. I like Sylvia, but I wouldn't feel safe to be under her command. :)

BTW - from the update:

Her stack progressed at last to a small servants' corridor looking in on the Atrium, with a remarkably clear view to the red-headed Warlady's flank.


So, presumably there are "servant" units. That's interesting, since there are limited numbers of "worker" units in Erf beyond miners and things like Twolls with natural Stuffamancy. For example, the buildings are created by natural Moneymancy, and there are no "farmers" as far as we are aware. Also, the rations appeared to pop where the characters were standing or sitting back in book 1 and cleaning happens automatically. I guess the servants are used for additional stuff like bringing the custom sandwiches and new livery and so on.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:17 am

The Minx wrote:
Sieggy wrote:Sylvia, though . . . now, THERE'S a warrior! Professional, focused, courageous, and daring.


Sylvia is being anything but professional right now. She's a fanatical devotee, professionals are wise enough to consider their own protection during battle.


Quite so. It is understandable that she'd croak her own Dwagon and not show concern, then once on the ground call a helper and risk being spotted by enemy infantry. Both were situations where all available options were bad, meaning the riskier choice had no worse an outcome than the others, but just might provide a better end result, with a bit of luck.

Choosing to stay "alone" (not quite, as we'll see) and siege the tower is also imo a wise choice. There's been some debate about that, but hey, the Purples were useless in the tunnels so why not make 'em do what they were popped to do? So keep the Dwagons in the courtyard, with some warlord to guide their attack and maybe some support infantry (which the comic updates reveal, are in fact present).

OTOH, not caring to cover your flanks is, indeed, reckless at best, foolish at worst. The enemy does have ranged troops after all, and you can never be sure that all archers are empty of arrows until the city is fully yours.

Which is why I hope, should she survive the battle, Sylvia will see the light and start touring the world delivering lectures on the importance of work safety measures.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby Decorus » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:39 am

Sylvia wasn't saved by the Titans, she just won another round against Death.
Sylvia wasn't taking any precautions, because since she was decrypted she has been playing a game of chance against death.
Her latest hand came up Aces and Eights beating Death's pair of nines.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby Kreistor » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:44 am

Kreistor wrote:Sylvia revealing she knew about the shot all along and dodging it? Cool. Fud jumping in the way? Cool. Dust spoiling her aim, preventing the shot? Okay. But a falling stone intercepting the arrow? Lame.


zilfallon wrote:It was foreshadowed by a couple of updates weeks ago, so i don't see this as "lame".
Would you have said so if the arrow was a crit? like..."pfff yeah right, it was a crit because it was an important shot, lame."


No, because Crits are typically 5% or more, and in many systems, you can train to increase that chance. I've seen a system where crit chances could reach 50%.

Falling rocks stopping an arrow mid-air? Not so common. Looking above, someone mentioned the dwagon could have taken the hit, but it could also have seen the shot coming and moved Sylvia out of the shot's path.

I simply prefer characters solving their own problems, rather than antagonists being countered by author fiat.

At the very least, Sylvia could have taken the classic anime scratch on the cheek, which ensures she wouldn't lose.

I guess there's another complaint I could make. Artemis fired only one shot, despite having time to prepare. I once watched a moderately trained archer set up for a volley, and he poured out 9 shots in 15 seconds. He only had 5 months training, so his hit rate was low, except on that first shot. Artemis should have poured out a rain at Sylvia, once the first well aimed shot was released.

Two tricks are used to achieve this. The first is to put arrows between the fingers of the hand holding the bow. After firing, you reach forward and pull the arrow onto the string and pull taut in one single, fast motion, which makes the second-fourth shots come out very quickly. The next shots were loaded from a belt quiver (on the left hip for a rightie, which is vital) that held only five shots.The archer moved the entire bow down to the quiver and pulled the string as he lifted the bow and arrow back up to position. This had much worse accuracy, because the bow had to move, but it was still much faster than fiddling with putting an arrow onto the string after drawing form a back quiver. While none of these secondary shots are going to be highly accurate, the intent to perform this maneuver does not spoil the first shot, thus Artemis could have rained death down on the large target, Sylvia's dwagon, after missing Sylvia.

(Note that I have seen a modern bow equipped with a bow quiver that would have further enhanced firing speed. I think it was on Pawn Stars.)
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:54 am

Kreistor wrote:Falling rocks stopping an arrow mid-air? Not so common. Looking above, someone mentioned the dwagon could have taken the hit, but it could also have seen the shot coming and moved Sylvia out of the shot's path.


Yes, or that. The mount's keen animal senses detecting a danger the rider is oblivious to or somesuch. Some proof that Dwagons aren't totally useless :P
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:16 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
The Minx wrote:
Sieggy wrote:Sylvia, though . . . now, THERE'S a warrior! Professional, focused, courageous, and daring.


Sylvia is being anything but professional right now. She's a fanatical devotee, professionals are wise enough to consider their own protection during battle.


Quite so. It is understandable that she'd croak her own Dwagon and not show concern, then once on the ground call a helper and risk being spotted by enemy infantry. Both were situations where all available options were bad, meaning the riskier choice had no worse an outcome than the others, but just might provide a better end result, with a bit of luck.

Choosing to stay "alone" (not quite, as we'll see) and siege the tower is also imo a wise choice. There's been some debate about that, but hey, the Purples were useless in the tunnels so why not make 'em do what they were popped to do? So keep the Dwagons in the courtyard, with some warlord to guide their attack and maybe some support infantry (which the comic updates reveal, are in fact present).

OTOH, not caring to cover your flanks is, indeed, reckless at best, foolish at worst. The enemy does have ranged troops after all, and you can never be sure that all archers are empty of arrows until the city is fully yours.

Which is why I hope, should she survive the battle, Sylvia will see the light and start touring the world delivering lectures on the importance of work safety measures.


On the other hand, she may simply be acting as she was taught all her life (and unlife) to act. She was ordered to bring down the tower, and damn she would bring down that tower or die trying. If she dies due to a flank attack, GK has other warlords, but if the tower falls, she gets exp and glory and the enemy doesn't have other capital towers.

It's a quite common tactic on strategy games and even real wars. Bring down the big important target if you see the oportunity even if you have to risk expendable troops. GK has other warlords should Scarlet fall. Jetstone doesn't have extra

Plus, hey, at least Sylvia's not shooting down her own troops like a certain diplomatic prince. Her work safety measures are pretty top notch compared to those defended by Trems! :lol:

For the record:

Trems shooting down his troops and then charging towards the dwagons-tactical genius that got unlucky!

Sylvia taking down the most important enemy position, knocking out the enemy CWL as bonus, at the expense of leting her flanks exposed-OMG foolish warlord!


Double standard much? If it had been Trems leting his flanks exposed, people would now hailing his undeniable military strategy and claiming it was simply impossible he could've protected the flanks on that situation. :roll:

Kreistor wrote:I simply prefer characters solving their own problems, rather than antagonists being countered by author fiat.

Well considering how Erfworld works like a game, it could've been simply a natural 1 fluffed as a rock falling on the way, because there's no other justifiable reason an highly skilled archer with time to take aim fails to hit a stationary target.


Kreistor wrote:I guess there's another complaint I could make. Artemis fired only one shot, despite having time to prepare. I once watched a moderately trained archer set up for a volley, and he poured out 9 shots in 15 seconds. He only had 5 months training, so his hit rate was low, except on that first shot. Artemis should have poured out a rain at Sylvia, once the first well aimed shot was released.


Again, Erfworld works like a game. Units probably have a limited number of attacks per X seconds and can't break it no matter how much they try, just like a dwagon cannot willingly drop from the sky off-turn, and Hamster would hit an invisible barrier if he tried to exit GK untill he promoted himself to field unit.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby Feyrauth » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:27 am

The Minx wrote:So, presumably there are "servant" units. That's interesting, since there are limited numbers of "worker" units in Erf beyond miners and things like Twolls with natural Stuffamancy. For example, the buildings are created by natural Moneymancy, and there are no "farmers" as far as we are aware. Also, the rations appeared to pop where the characters were standing or sitting back in book 1 and cleaning happens automatically. I guess the servants are used for additional stuff like bringing the custom sandwiches and new livery and so on.


Buildings exist in GK for no purpose but to make it look like a town; surely it's possible that servant's passages exist for no purpose but to make JS look like a palace?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:38 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Again, Erfworld works like a game. Units probably have a limited number of attacks per X seconds and can't break it no matter how much they try, just like a dwagon cannot willingly drop from the sky off-turn, and Hamster would hit an invisible barrier if he tried to exit GK untill he promoted himself to field unit.


Bows do get a ... strange reputation in games. Not just about rate of fire (which was fast, probably even if arrows were removed from a back quiver or plucked from the ground where they were previously set), but also the strength required.

Now, disclaimer. I've not shot a serious modern bow, and those have mechanisms in place to make the draw more manageable for the average (read, unfit) person. However, if it's medieval-like bows we're talking about, which admittedly I didn't shoot either, some people (presumably historians, if I ever find the time to check up on exact sources) estimate the draw strength of a medieval longbow to be in the 60kg-force range, and recurved Mongol bows supposedly got as high as 90kg-force.

Which force would need to be delivered by one arm (think about it) several times a minute to make an efficient archer. I dare say, archers were probably more beefy than the cannon fodder swinging swords in the field. And more valuable.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:01 pm

Kreistor wrote:Now, disclaimer. I've not shot a serious modern bow, and those have mechanisms in place to make the draw more manageable for the average (read, unfit) person. However, if it's medieval-like bows we're talking about, which admittedly I didn't shoot either, some people (presumably historians, if I ever find the time to check up on exact sources) estimate the draw strength of a medieval longbow to be in the 60kg-force range, and recurved Mongol bows supposedly got as high as 90kg-force.

Which force would need to be delivered by one arm (think about it) several times a minute to make an efficient archer. I dare say, archers were probably more beefy than the cannon fodder swinging swords in the field. And more valuable.


Extra disclaimer. I practise Kyuudo, that still uses old-style bows whitout any of those fancy modern firing mechanisms, and they do demand a lot of strenght to properly draw a single time.

But don't discount the cannon fodder swinging swords either, as they were expected to run half the way across the battlefield with armor and said swords, so they had to have some pretty good muscles as well.

In particular I remember reports of the ancient Japan-Korea war where the korean archers would only have time to loose one or two volleys before the samurais got in melee and started stabbing left and right. And armor had a much better chance of stoping an arrow hit than a sword/spear blow.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:07 pm

Point taken.

Still, mind the quote tag, as it wasn't Kreistor who said that :)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby The Minx » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:12 pm

Feyrauth wrote:
The Minx wrote:So, presumably there are "servant" units. That's interesting, since there are limited numbers of "worker" units in Erf beyond miners and things like Twolls with natural Stuffamancy. For example, the buildings are created by natural Moneymancy, and there are no "farmers" as far as we are aware. Also, the rations appeared to pop where the characters were standing or sitting back in book 1 and cleaning happens automatically. I guess the servants are used for additional stuff like bringing the custom sandwiches and new livery and so on.


Buildings exist in GK for no purpose but to make it look like a town; surely it's possible that servant's passages exist for no purpose but to make JS look like a palace?


Possibly; I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Though they would fit in with the henchmen.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby Jallorn » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:33 pm

Guys, I just figured it out, Charlie is the main protagonist, not Parson (yes, I know about Parson Gotti=Protagonist). See, what's really going on is Charlie is Batman, and Parson is the Joker. The Magic Kingdom is the incumbent Maffia, and they brought in a new terror, Parson, to combat the old terror, Charlie, in an equally dangerous manner, only they don't realize what they've unleashed.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby effataigus » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:22 pm

Kreistor wrote:I guess there's another complaint I could make. Artemis fired only one shot, despite having time to prepare. I once watched a moderately trained archer set up for a volley, and he poured out 9 shots in 15 seconds. He only had 5 months training, so his hit rate was low, except on that first shot. Artemis should have poured out a rain at Sylvia, once the first well aimed shot was released.


You aren't giving her enough time or enough credit! Recall her hand signals:

I will shoot on the third volley

upon a crit, withdraw

upon a hit or miss, engage the warlord's stack and croak purples

once engaged, screen me for another shot

so long as any of you live, keep screening for my bow


She's going to keep shooting... Sylvia (who I keep almost calling BlandCo) just had time to grin, so expect more arrows to be a-raining. We knew Sylvia was safe from the first shot because Rob would have a really hard time justifying killing off a fan-favorite in a supposedly bonus-material (text) update. Subsequent arrows on the other hand...

I think this update was meant to set up the grudgematch, not resolve it!

This seems like a good time for Sylvia to be wounded by a non-crit while hacking her way to Artemis. Also seems like a good time for the Dwagons to work off some of their Worf Effect reputation by busting some knight heads.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby kouhoutek » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:22 pm

The Minx wrote:So, presumably there are "servant" units.


Not necessarily. It could be one of those useless things that just pops, like the slaughterhouse Parson mused over.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby Angband » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:46 pm

Hmmm... lets see what we have here.

Quimper wrote:Sigh..


First post by a new account, but obviously familiar with the story? Check.

Quimper wrote:The uninterrupted win-streak of the Deus ex Knob and the Broken Tools have really made the second book a pure and utter disappointment.


Unbridled negativity about the writing? Check.

Quimper wrote:Theres absolutely no suspense or drama when you give the protagonists 100% victories, imbalanced/game breaking items and zero casualties. Fail!


Getting important factual details about the story completely wrong? Check.

Quimper wrote:Then again.. i guess i'll stick around a bit longer to se if anything changes (unlikely..). :/


Inexplicably continuing to obsess about a story they supposedly have contempt for? Check.

While it's entirely possible I'm wrong about this, let me just say... welcome back, Plot Armour, it's been a while.

On the other hand, if this really is PA, by calling him on it so soon after a new alt appeared, he might disappear again.

On the other other hand... that would be Mission Booping Accomplished.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby jkosta » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:24 pm

Jallorn wrote:Guys, I just figured it out, Charlie is the main protagonist, not Parson (yes, I know about Parson Gotti=Protagonist). See, what's really going on is Charlie is Batman, and Parson is the Joker. The Magic Kingdom is the incumbent Maffia, and they brought in a new terror, Parson, to combat the old terror, Charlie, in an equally dangerous manner, only they don't realize what they've unleashed.


+1 for amusingly well-fitting explanation.

Charlie even has a Batcave.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby The.Healing.Mage » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:00 pm

zilfallon wrote:
Quimper wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Sylvia revealing she knew about the shot all along and dodging it? Cool. Fud jumping in the way? Cool. Dust spoiling her aim, preventing the shot? Okay. But a falling stone intercepting the arrow? Lame.


It was foreshadowed by a couple of updates weeks ago, so i don't see this as "lame".
Would you have said so if the arrow was a crit? like..."pfff yeah right, it was a crit because it was an important shot, lame."


Quimper, which of the following options is better?

Important shot gets bonus for being important:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0059.html

Important shot happens to miss impotently:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html
(Focus especially on the bottom-left panel)


Both are reasonably likely outcomes on a given shot. Most writers, in trying to make their work more concise, would only mention the plot-advancing details. However, Erfworld (and Order of the Stick, what I linked you to) are comic ... er... comics. Sometimes they advance the story, and sometimes they just say funny things. Rob Balder and Rich Burlew happen to be able to do both at the same time, hence why we weren't sure in the previous text update, when Artemis was introduced, if she'd succeed or fail.

Sometimes it's just For The Art.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby Quimper » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:10 pm

Angband wrote:Hmmm... lets see what we have here.

Quimper wrote:Sigh..


First post by a new account, but obviously familiar with the story? Check.

Quimper wrote:The uninterrupted win-streak of the Deus ex Knob and the Broken Tools have really made the second book a pure and utter disappointment.


Unbridled negativity about the writing? Check.

Quimper wrote:Theres absolutely no suspense or drama when you give the protagonists 100% victories, imbalanced/game breaking items and zero casualties. Fail!

Etc...

Writing a completely unnecessary post? Check!

Knowing less about the world and books than me? Check!

Being an avid raging fanboi? Check fucking plus!

-----
@The.Healing.Mage: In this case, it would be better from both drama and tension views if the shot hit and evened out the odds a bit. Obviously something as important as killing a named character wouldn't happen in a text update, but this could have been used to set up for a killing blow the next regular update, showing that the Knob isn't indestructible in every concievable way. They haven't gotten a single unit killed yet. Not Ansom and not even one of the characters croaking their own dragons where they explicitly state that ppl would probably get croaked. Hell! I would even consider a secondary character getting killed and then decrypted, still fighting on the knobs side, a "loss" for the Knob.

I have no doubt someone from the knobs side is gonna die before book 2 is done. But i hate having to wait for the last 10% of the book before that happens. Right now it's a steamroller. It's been done already (book 1). It's even more unbalanced now (the pliers) and i simply don't think it holds up to book 1 like some fanbois insist it does.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby Gator » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:21 pm

...And now we've gotten to the part of the thread that amply demonstrates why I'm only an intermittent reader of this forum.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby Hanyo » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:34 pm

Quimper wrote:They haven't gotten a single unit killed yet.


Wait, what? What about the whole stack of stabbers & other infantry that got croaked outside once Ansom was captured? What about all of the secondary cities that GK is losing THIS turn to FAQ? What about Captain Ford? What about Wrigley!?!?!

This turn has hardly been a cakewalk for GK . . .

R.I.P. Wrigley
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