Book 2 – Page 64

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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby drachefly » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:57 pm

slb wrote:He did not open the other end of the tunnel but created a new access straigh where Parson & Jojo were standing, also notice how the stairs arrive perpendicular to the tunnel direction.


Yeah, but it indicates the direction to within a few degrees.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby kouhoutek » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:03 pm

slb wrote:
kouhoutek wrote:Especially now that Sizemore opened the other end of the tunnel. Before, random casters could only follow him into the tunnel...now they have a pretty good idea where he is going, and can try to intercept.
He did not open the other end of the tunnel but created a new access straigh where Parson & Jojo were standing, also notice how the stairs arrive perpendicular to the tunnel direction.


Still, they were standing right next to the gate and talked a while when Parson and Jojo were dashing towards them. Wherever the new entry is, it's going to be pretty close to the portal.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby splexis » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:17 pm

rkyeun wrote:If Parson's not going to play by those rules, Erfworld isn't going to take responsibility. Parson has the scroll now. He has no excuse. If he stays now, it is by his will, his rules, his fate. And whatever he breaks is now entirely his responsibility.


Ridiculous: if there are any other agencies involved in the story besides Parson, then they too share responsibility. Free will does not mean one lives a factual or believed solipsistic existence. Nor does one individual having free will mean that no other has it, quite the opposite (you might want to read Conway's "The Strong Free Will Theorem"), and free wills will conflict, ergo responsibility is generally a messy, spread-about affair.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby Vreejack » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:24 pm

Loved Parson's expression in response to Sizemore's "I'm stacking."

A George Harrison quote. I thought it was too obvious to mention, but I guess not everyone here lived through the 70's.

The peace sign (originally the symbol of a Nuclear Disarmament organization, from the semaphore for "N" and "D") is upside down. That is odd, but I cannot fathom why, except to point out that it would have been hard to recognize otherwise. Though the whole image could have been rearranged to make it clear.

The Avedon shot was pretty cool, though it took a while to find it online.

Then Jojo quotes a Ringo Starr song (actually, it turns out, a Harrison/Starkey song, which in my mind means Starkey wrote the drum track. I always doubted Ringo's musical talent). One thing you have to give the Beatles', though. Even when they were breaking up they really didn't give a crap about who got credit for what song.

Did anyone else notice Jeftichew tossing a harpoon at the white whale? Is this a foreboding for Jojo? Is Parson going to eat his leg? Maybe a symbol of how pointless Jojo's quest was.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby kaylasdad99 » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:30 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:What's Jojo blubbering about? If he says Parson is a whale then I've got to say "cetacean needed".
ne.[/quote]

Please explain that pun right now, so I don't start laughing in church...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby fjolnir » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:29 am

kaylasdad99 wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:What's Jojo blubbering about? If he says Parson is a whale then I've got to say "cetacean needed".
ne.


Please explain that pun right now, so I don't start laughing in church...[/quote]
A Cetacean is a whale. Also Wikipedia asks for citations with "citation needed"

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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby jja » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:37 am

kaylasdad99 wrote:Please explain that pun right now, so I don't start laughing in church...

Right. It's a killer.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby Oberon » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:49 am

TheMutant wrote:And I'm guessing that Jojo wasn't going to just walk away if Parson refused- he might have started using his own spells to render Parson unable to defend against the scroll.
How do you go about using your own spells to render a person who is apparently immune to your scroll spell somehow unable to defend against the scroll? Seems like belling the cat to me... Great in theory, but highly impractical in practice.
kouhoutek wrote:She preventing him from casting the scroll anyway. If the staff only grants say, 50% spell resistance, rather than full spell immunity, Jojo might have rolled the dice and tried anyway. All his talk was to try to make it a sure thing.
A reasonable theory. If I had a 50% chance to succeed on some action I thought was important I'd try to improve those odds.
gameboy1234 wrote:[snippage]Another way to interpret this is that Jojo and Parson were stalemated. Parson was blocking the spell, but if he turned around to run away, his guard may have dropped and Jojo would have been able to cast at a fleeing opponent. Backing away slowly might have amounted to the same thing. Now, with Jojo "pacified" or whatever, he can't cast no matter what. So he tosses the scroll and gives up, at least for now.
'kay. I'll buy that also.
rkyeun wrote:At the beginning of the story, Parson was controlled by Erfworld, and his curse words were booped out and his hands forced. At the end of the first book, he broke that and established his free will. As long as Parson played by Erfworld's rules, Erfworld could be blamed. It could be responsible for what was happening. Its people, its spells, its casters, its summoning, its duty, and its fate.
If Parson's not going to play by those rules, Erfworld isn't going to take responsibility. Parson has the scroll now. He has no excuse. If he stays now, it is by his will, his rules, his fate. And whatever he breaks is now entirely his responsibility.
This is a somewhat poetic position to take. The mechanics of Erfworld tend to get in the way of simple answers here. Just as the GK casters refused to enter the MK without a direct order from Parson, and Parson then was able to order them into the risky volcano uncroaking, there are rules at work of which the readers have not been made clearly aware. At least not enough to be able to judge these sorts of questions.
Beeskee wrote:Jojo's speech changes right after he's hit, he slips into a more normal form of speech.
Not as much "more normal" speech as it is another Beatles song reference.
Dancing Cthulhu wrote:It would be a shame if some she [Janis] got some hippiemancer goons to ruff him up for trying to interfere in their plans.
That seems to be the very antithesis of hippymancy, to me.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby auraseer » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:44 am

Vreejack wrote:Loved Parson's expression in response to Sizemore's "I'm stacking."

I like that too. What I'm curious about is why Sizemore had to announce that he was stacking-- that is, other than for the readers' benefit.

I don't think he was announcing it to Jojo or the other casters, because they should have been able to see it themselves. Maybe Parson can't see stacks without his glasses? Or maybe Sizemore was actually getting permission before he could stack. Perhaps one can't stack under a warlord's leadership unless they acknowledge or will it.

Also, I'm curious if the stack will have any bearing on what happens next. Part of my brain wants to assume that Sizemore and Parson will now be forced to entering the portal as a single stack. But that seems unlikely, because stacking/unstacking does not seem to take time and we've seen it happen multiple times in a turn.

Another possibility is that, being in the stack, Sizemore screens for Parson and takes an arrow or spell for him. This would be a really dramatic way to off Sizemore and give Parson some consequences for his rashness. I think it's low probability, but stranger things have happened.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby Smoker » Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:58 am

Is it not possible that "Im stacking" is a gag on "I'm packing [heat]"? The stance matches.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby madmaw » Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:47 am

gameboy1234 wrote:[snippage]Another way to interpret this is that Jojo and Parson were stalemated. Parson was blocking the spell, but if he turned around to run away, his guard may have dropped and Jojo would have been able to cast at a fleeing opponent. Backing away slowly might have amounted to the same thing. Now, with Jojo "pacified" or whatever, he can't cast no matter what. So he tosses the scroll and gives up, at least for now.


Although it wasn't explained at the time, we've seen a Staff of Suckage block magical attacks on Wanda (but not her mount) as she was pursuing the Arkenpliers, moving away from the Archons attacking her, here http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F121.jpg . Note the beams bouncing off the red shield around her in panel 9.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:17 am

jja wrote:
kaylasdad99 wrote:Please explain that pun right now, so I don't start laughing in church...

Right. It's a killer.


Indeed it is, though the jury is still out on whether that's because it's funny, or so groantastic that one whale's in mortal agony.

EDIT:

fjolnir wrote:{"cetacean" means something related to whales while reminiscent of another word infamously used by no-good editors on a site of ill-repute. Hee-larious.}
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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby multilis » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:35 am

It is possible that a lucky shot could bypass the staff, which for example might be a 1 in 10 chance. (Age of Wonders 2 for example, even if you have defense or resistance of 20, there is still 10% chance any shot may hit you... developers made number of changes like that to reduce chance a single unit could slaughter entire enemy side given a little time)

If Jojo can hit for 10% and has juice to cast a couple different spells he has a smaller but still possible chance to disable Parson.

Sizemore should know what staff does even better than Jojo. Sizemore stacking can mean Parson's defense gets improved by sizemore's bonus in his ideal terrain, *or* sizemores attack bonus is drastically improved so that if Jojo fires the first spell or launches a physical attack, sizemore can hit back or block. (Book 1 had a physical attack to disarm Ansom of pliers)

Jojo may also have had option to launch a physical attack on something other than Parson... changing end of tunnel, or changing rules so that tunnel end would not open or planting an "attraction" right in front of Jetstone gate to get other casters to capture him before he could pass.

Someone of Jojo's profession may rig the game so that any choice by other side loses. The main choice presented may be a distraction to the alternative *real* trick. Eg OOTS, which of the 3 X's is real? None.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:54 am

multilis wrote:It is possible that a lucky shot could bypass the staff, which for example might be a 1 in 10 chance. (Age of Wonders 2 for example, even if you have defense or resistance of 20, there is still 10% chance any shot may hit you... developers made number of changes like that to reduce chance a single unit could slaughter entire enemy side given a little time)


The devs did that? Makes sense. In AoW1, a hero would go from squishy slug to unstoppable god of war by the time they hit L10 or so. It really was possible to finish an entire campaign with 1 attacking unit.

multilis wrote:Sizemore stacking can mean Parson's defense gets improved by sizemore's bonus in his ideal terrain, *or* sizemores attack bonus is drastically improved so that if Jojo fires the first spell or launches a physical attack, sizemore can hit back or block. (Book 1 had a physical attack to disarm Ansom of pliers)

Jojo may also have had option to launch a physical attack on something other than Parson... changing end of tunnel, or changing rules so that tunnel end would not open or planting an "attraction" right in front of Jetstone gate to get other casters to capture him before he could pass.


Maybe Sizemore stacking is just a "reflex", not so much a protection against actual imminent danger than it is habit in the face of apparent peril. It's just what you do when someone threatens a friend, even if the threat is unlikely to result in consequences.

But I like the idea that at least in theory Jojo could be attacking something else (like causing the tunnel to collapse). Sizemore probably doesn't know what Jojo wants or what he's capable of, so yeah. Defensive stacking.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:29 am

Oberon wrote:
rkyeun wrote:At the beginning of the story, Parson was controlled by Erfworld, and his curse words were booped out and his hands forced. At the end of the first book, he broke that and established his free will. As long as Parson played by Erfworld's rules, Erfworld could be blamed. It could be responsible for what was happening. Its people, its spells, its casters, its summoning, its duty, and its fate.
If Parson's not going to play by those rules, Erfworld isn't going to take responsibility. Parson has the scroll now. He has no excuse. If he stays now, it is by his will, his rules, his fate. And whatever he breaks is now entirely his responsibility.
This is a somewhat poetic position to take. The mechanics of Erfworld tend to get in the way of simple answers here. Just as the GK casters refused to enter the MK without a direct order from Parson, and Parson then was able to order them into the risky volcano uncroaking, there are rules at work of which the readers have not been made clearly aware. At least not enough to be able to judge these sorts of questions.


That was Loyalty and Duty at work there. The mancers refused to pull back because they had good reasons to suspect Hamster still had a last desesperate trick up his sleeve (in particular ordering Maggie to save up her juice at all costs, meaning he wanted it for some kind of last stand)

Now Hamster is clearly the one working outside the rules. He had been fighting the sword of Ruthlness the moment he picked it up, and eventually destroyed it, plus breaking the "no swearing" rule. His mind literally works in a diferent way than erfworlders. The fact that he can also enter the MK and doesn't have obsearvable stats further reinforces the fact that he simply isn't not an erfworld native, and thus works in diferent ways. Altough thanks to Stanley he's close enough to still work. Book 1 would've finished in an hurry if they had summoned some alien master strategist that couldn't breath air or speak words. :D

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
multilis wrote:Sizemore stacking can mean Parson's defense gets improved by sizemore's bonus in his ideal terrain, *or* sizemores attack bonus is drastically improved so that if Jojo fires the first spell or launches a physical attack, sizemore can hit back or block. (Book 1 had a physical attack to disarm Ansom of pliers)

Jojo may also have had option to launch a physical attack on something other than Parson... changing end of tunnel, or changing rules so that tunnel end would not open or planting an "attraction" right in front of Jetstone gate to get other casters to capture him before he could pass.


Maybe Sizemore stacking is just a "reflex", not so much a protection against actual imminent danger than it is habit in the face of apparent peril. It's just what you do when someone threatens a friend, even if the threat is unlikely to result in consequences.

But I like the idea that at least in theory Jojo could be attacking something else (like causing the tunnel to collapse). Sizemore probably doesn't know what Jojo wants or what he's capable of, so yeah. Defensive stacking.


We know that:
-Being stacked grants an inherent combat bonus that caps at 8 units.
-You get a really fat bonus for being on the same stack as your chief warlord (TV vs Stanley battle). Like puny doombats will count as mighty heavies.
-Units in a stack can cover each other, like Sizemore hiding behind his golems.
-Erfworld being a world of constant war, you can't really trust random strangers, specially random strangers pointing unknown scrolls at your allies, double when your friend predictmancer warns you to don't let that scroll be cast.

So I say it was perfectly reasonable for Sizemore to stack with Hamster. Between stack bonus and direct CWL bonus Sizemore probably can become a threat in melee, and can also serve as a meat/rockshield should Jojo pull out some unexpected trick.

I'll also suport that Jojo could have pulled out some terrain trick like a maze or mirror tricks to trap/delay Hamster, which would bypass the staff of Suckage as it wasn't directly targeting the wielder. Sizemore being stacked would've made it easier for him to backup his CWL.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby effataigus » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:28 am

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:I'm curious about what the spell actually did to Jojo (other then put some nice flowers in his hair) - he wasn't actually attacking, just trying to convince Parson to let him cast the spell. My thoughts are:

A. Robbed him of the motivation to continue (or did the circumstances, three other casters being there who want Parson to stick around do that)
B. Make him abandon his desire to work against the caster's desires (whose desire wouldn't be for Parson to return to his world, or at the very least whose desire wasn't to have a spell cast on Parson). Which is kind of a strong armed peace/love.
C. Or was there sinister motivations and he no longer felt able to continue with them? "It don't come easy"?

Of course if the latter they couldn't be too sinister since he had no problem giving the scroll.


Well, it seemed like Jojo was going to keep trying to sell Parson on the scroll...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeYsTmIzjkw

That's my read on the spell anyway!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby gazes_also » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:43 am

auraseer wrote:
Vreejack wrote:Loved Parson's expression in response to Sizemore's "I'm stacking."

I like that too. What I'm curious about is why Sizemore had to announce that he was stacking-- that is, other than for the readers' benefit.

I don't think he was announcing it to Jojo or the other casters, because they should have been able to see it themselves. Maybe Parson can't see stacks without his glasses? Or maybe Sizemore was actually getting permission before he could stack. Perhaps one can't stack under a warlord's leadership unless they acknowledge or will it.

Also, I'm curious if the stack will have any bearing on what happens next. Part of my brain wants to assume that Sizemore and Parson will now be forced to entering the portal as a single stack. But that seems unlikely, because stacking/unstacking does not seem to take time and we've seen it happen multiple times in a turn.

Another possibility is that, being in the stack, Sizemore screens for Parson and takes an arrow or spell for him. This would be a really dramatic way to off Sizemore and give Parson some consequences for his rashness. I think it's low probability, but stranger things have happened.




It could also mean "I may not look like much of a fighter, but I just got a CWL stack bonus, so watch out buddy"

Parson's expression seems to say " This guy looks like he couldn't punch his way out of a paper bag, which,coincidently, is exactly how much protection I'm now getting."

Having taken longer to get to the portal Sizemore may feel the need to stay stacked with Parson to get him to JS. The consequences for Sizemore will be huge; he will not be able to return to TMK as he will have broken one of it's basic rules. He could justify helping Parson pass through, but if he does it himself his feelings of guilt will be overwhelming and he will consider himself an outcast even if TMK doesn't banish him.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby Aquillion » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:08 pm

Smittaugh wrote:Just have to pass on something I noticed. Now, it depends on the perspective and just how tall Parson really is, however... Look at the last panel. Janis is tall. If Parson is around six feet tall, then she comes up to his shoulder, which , in my humble estimation, puts her just under average height for a Stupidworld female. At any rate, she's taller than the Erf girls we've seen so far. And in a world where signamancy is significant, I can't help but wonder what it means, if anything at all.

Great update, by the way. Thank you.
In her first appearance (very early in the comic) she wasn't, but in the text updates at the start of this chapter she was. Likely that's just an art shift.

But either way, it likely symbolizes her ambition, her forceful personality, and, perhaps, her leadership role among Hippiemancers. It also gives her a motherly look, which fits her character.

Marie is about that tall, too.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby Katana » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:57 pm

Just great Rob, that you've managed to keep this going. Well done.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 64

Postby tigerusthegreat » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:51 pm

Due to reading Moby Dick in a class I will mention another MD reference...that of the caster's name Jojo...which is the wooden idol Queequeg carries around and worships as a god. Not sure if someone else mentioned it before.
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