Book 2 – Text Updates 052

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby badninja » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:50 am

Nice update I hope Wanda can get that unit. Sad to see her go so fast but she had to, too much danger to a fan favorite unit. Nice update and what lies in store for the next comics?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby zilfallon » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:00 am

Lamech wrote:They seem to be on par in straight up combat against high level warlords


Where did you come to this conclusion, seriously? Every high level warlord who fought a dwagon so far , one shotted a dwagon. You really call that "on par" ?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby M.A.D » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:03 am

A caster did it !!!!!! :mrgreen:

BLANDCorporatio wrote:The Dwagons fighting here are all decrypted, because otherwise they'd be up in the air. It was harvesting that forced them to land off-turn.


No, they're not. There are dwagons whom are forced to the ground by promoting hobgobwins to heavies. The whole point of harvesting and promoting were to get ALL of them to the ground
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby ftl » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:16 am

Morgaln wrote:I'm also getting annoyed at dozens upon dozens of obscure pop culture reference being stacked upon one another in every single page of the comic.


If that bothers you, this comic is definitely not for you. That's been a major thing since this comic started.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Lamech » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:46 am

zilfallon wrote:Where did you come to this conclusion, seriously? Every high level warlord who fought a dwagon so far , one shotted a dwagon. You really call that "on par" ?
The fights? Lets see Jillian v dwagon. She croaks a dwagon with one gwiffion bite and one sword swing (how is that a one shot btw?) and is in turn swatted out by a dwagon. Tram gets removed from combat in one-shot from a pink. (A weaker flavor mind you). A sonic volley incapacitates Tram. (While there were several dwagons there were also several units so it evens out.) Artemis worries about a green one shotting her... so umm... yeah they seem fairly on par. The dwagons are fully capable of doing similar damage.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:08 am

That. Was. Rather. AWESOME. The flow of it, the feel of it... possibly one of (for me at least) best fights in the whole of the comic. Kept me glued to the very end. Dare I say a rather epic show down? I do. Artemis and her knights were damn impressive, and Sylvia, Captain Archer and nameless Hobgob Knight (the one that helped Sylvia?) were no slouches either. Very good bit of art too, really complemented the writing.

And I am sad for Artemis (alas, we barely knew ye), being defeated by foe is one thing, dashing through the artillery, taking whatever they could throw at you only to be constantly thwarted by fate/luck until they managed to bring you down something else - hopefully she is giving the Titans a piece of her mind as we speak (if they are even up there, and assuming she just wasn't really unlucky). And she certainly showed she was a good leader of a small, hard hitting team. Damn she may have fallen, but she did do some damage and most certainly bought Slately the time he needed. He might not know Artemis is gone, or the circumstances (if he did, with his new found perspective, I'd like to think he'd be moved), but I do hope his act honor her and all of Jetstone all the more.

I fear Artemis may be decrypted as well, but I am heartened by Oss behaviour. Being decrypted might not necessarily mean being a loyal Wandaite till the second end for Artemis.

And I'm also happy to see Sylvia was pretty canny, being sneaky with her dwagons and captain archer (weight of my mind to know she had covered her flanks). Nice. And Sylvia is thinking of the cost of what she is doing "can't keep trading high value units". And some new features of Erfworld - dwagon breath combos, Valkyrie class knights... what other knight classes are there? And what benefit do they offer?

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Vurp! NOOOOOOOOOO!


I thought it might be him, tough little guy. Artemis didn't seem to recognize Captain Archer, I wounder where he originated - an actual GK unit? And I wonder if he leveled.

Anyway Captain Archer seems to be on the up and up, I hope warlord Grey Brows turns up some more too

PS: don't worry about Slately. Aww yeah, the ol' guy is going to pull some rocket-awesome soon enough. You go grrl!

In fact, I foresee a loaded Slately chucking grenades and chewing Dwagon gum slowly departing from the burning ruins of Spacerock with Wanda's still beating heart in one of his hands. "Home is where your heart is" he'd say as he puts on sunglasses and chucks the heart in the fire, " in HELL!"


I look forward to whatever Slately is going to do even more now. Knowing about the life and death struggles at the base of the tower, I hope he lives up to the sacrifices both sides are prepared to make.

Plus rocket-awesome Slately with grenade chucking ability will be awesome indeed (and now you mention it - I would laugh so much if Ace has whipped him up some shades as well 8-) ).

lodo_bear wrote:My money's on a railroad GM. Or more accurately, a railroad Titan. The odds on these shots are too good, and I get the feeling that Rob wants us to know that. The Titans want Gobwin Knob to win this one. Fate is, indeed, on Wanda's side.


Maybe, although the Titans are kind of jerks if that is how they go about it "No, we don't care how many times you make a great shot, we want GK to win, so we'll keep deflecting your arrows till you die and there is nothing you can do about it (duty/loyalty compelled as you are to fight till the end)". (I kid, a little :D )

And an odd way, it evidently wasn't in their power or interests in stopping Jack from taking an arrow, or Captain Archer (though in the later case it helped him with his attack). They can't be fudging many roles since Aretmis and her knights did so well for so long, and due to that have bought Slately and his guys that much more time, which if it succeeds will lead to Trem being king (or heir at least).

Which is why it is my fervent hope that Parson, armed with Jojo's scroll, will find some way to fight Fate, and win.


It is a nifty idea, one I think is possible and would like seeing. If Parson is there the break Erfworld in order to fix it something would have to be done about that (I would imagine).

mcw0933 wrote:Is it possible Artemis had some kind of anti-luckamancy special applied to her without her knowledge?

I agree that we're supposed to realize the improbability of it all, but I'm not sure I believe that the Titans are responsible.


Personally that is what I think (or some form of luckmancy at least), I am too much of a Titanic skeptic to attribute this as them getting involved (and it would beg the question of "why now, like this?"). And there was Artemis' history with Forthewin, a guy with legendary luck whose eventual downfall was blamed on Artemis. And she did get unlucky with Ansom...

Of course it might just be natural luck, there seems to have been a bit in this battle. It is easy to take for granted till it runs out (then you're dusted or croaked). Or natural unluck - just because the chances of something happening are astonishingly low doesn't actually make it impossible to occur (even in the real world).

MichaelR138 wrote:Well, now we see how little we can trust Artemis' internal narrative. She chided Sylvia for not covering her flanks but did nothing to protect her knights flanks should they have to try and engage.


I did have to smile at that a bit, Artemis did seem to do things without full knowledge a few times (still, in the circumstance it didn't make much different, since I'm not sure what more she could have done to cover her flanks, and committing to saving the king required going in).

So in the end the score ends up, 7 dwagons and one hobgobwin knight lost for GK, 12 knights and a lvl 8 warlord with archery special lost for Jetstone and gained for GK. One (at most two) volley(s) and one siege engine lost by GK in the attempt to collapse the tower. Epic fail for Artemis who once again was led astray by her arrogance and self-promotion instead of trying to do her duty as given to her by her superiors or to take the safe path and stealth up the stairs to escort Slately back out of the tower before it falls.


And don't forget Captain Archer is injured :o I'm not sure how it will balance in the end (dwagons vs knights - how many knights does Jetstone still have vs how many dwagons/knights GK still has, the time Artemis bought Slately). I guess if Wanda gets a chance she'll be able to decrypt them, though things still seem to close to say for certain (assuming Wanda rejoins the battle after Parson gets there).

Not sure about the options you give there. Escort Slately probably wouldn't work, since he is her ruler set on a course of action. At the very least after he says "No, I won't be leaving just yet" it would test how far a unit can go to disobey a direct order.

DyolfKnip wrote:Ahh, but those dwagons are, at most, 72 turns old, and some of them were probably captured by Stanley for free. How much time did it take to train up all those Knights, and how much did it cost to maintain them in the meantime? My guess would be these cost calculations favor GK by several orders of magnitude. Those dwagons can be replaced in a couple turns, 2 or 3 tops. How long for JS to get more high-level Knights? Not anytime soon.


I'd only be looking at it in terms of this battle (in a broader sense I guess one could wonder, strength for strength, whether 7 dwagons and one knight is more valuable then 12 knights or vice versa - in normal circumstances I don't think a knight could even attack a dwagon, and dwagons do have a destructive versatility) - who is worse off for there losses in terms of winning a battle? To close a thing to tell for me, especially with so many variables.

zilfallon wrote:I mean, srsly...yeah, elite knights, led by a good warlord and such okay. But COME ON, Sylvia is level six and they are DWAGONS you know. They're supposed to be like...unmatched fliers, very strong, the unit which makes Arkenhammer good and so on. But we only saw them as victims of worf effects. To show how skilled Artemis is, to show how badass high level archons are and such. I was always saying Arkenhammer was equal in power to other tools because of dwagons. But yeah, now I think Arkenhammer is weaker BECAUSE of dwagons


I think a part of what makes them good is they are flying heavies with breath attacks that come in many flavors, not that they are super awesome in any environment. My air-force is super awesome unless you catch it on the ground. Then it is a sitting duck.

Plus, you know, Artemis and her knights were fast enough to get the first hits on them (and we don't know their level) and outnumbered the first stack (and Artemis and her knights weren't left unscathed by the attack of the first stack either). And they were unled (and we know they aren't the smartest of beasties, as Jillian's "watch the shiny" shows), while the knights presumably fought smart against a bunch of lumbering giants. And in the chance of criticals increasing with level and targets you can't miss...

WaterMonkey314 wrote:I thought the same thing... but then I wondered if maybe this was supposed to hint at the Pliers losing their powers somewhat - that the Dwagons were for some reason easier to kill. (though that would then imply their post-decryption stats lie)
[/quote]

Would the pliers still be offering a bonus while Wanda is off in the portal room?
Last edited by Dancing Cthulhu on Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:14 am

gameboy1234 wrote:I think Rob is just trolling his fans here a bit. "Look what I had to do to keep Sylvia alive."


True dat.

Also true that it was also Rob who set up that situation in the first place. I mean look, the Jetstone Archers were supposedly all spent, making inclement weather in the Atrium. Oh wait, no they're not, there's this uber-Warlord that's both immensely high-level and has arrows left.

M.A.D wrote:A caster did it !!!!!! :mrgreen:


:lol: But if it ever turns out you're right, then what? :P

M.A.D wrote:No, the {Dwagons are} not {all decrypted}. There are dwagons whom are forced to the ground by promoting hobgobwins to heavies. The whole point of harvesting and promoting were to get ALL of them to the ground


Correct but imo irrelevant? The Dwagons in this battle were not Yellows nor Pinks, and it was only those types that made it to ground alive.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Dr Pepper » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:18 am

For those of you who are complaining about the slow pace of Erfworld, let me recommend another favorite of mine. Operation Unicorn. It's a serial novel about an alternate WWI. The twist that makes it alternate is Germany sending troops to support a rebellion in Ireland. Each chapter covers one full day of events, and those are big chapters. In between chapters, the author gets a lot of advice and flack from his fellow history buffs.

So far, he has taken 8 years to get from August of 1914 to June of 1915.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Aquillion » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:37 am

MichaelR138 wrote:Well, now we see how little we can trust Artemis' internal narrative. She chided Sylvia for not covering her flanks but did nothing to protect her knights flanks should they have to try and engage. She charged in with incomplete knowledge while belittling Tremenis and Sylvia for inferior tactics only to show that her own were actually flawed worse then those she was criticizing. Yes, she had 3 shots knocked astray, but we do not know that any one of them would have even hit, much less incapacitated or killed Lady Lazarus, other then Artemis' self promoting beliefs.
I don't think her plan was ever intended to be anything but a last-ditch attempt to save the tower. She wasn't defending herself because it was, very likely, a suicide mission -- her inner monologue at the start pretty much says it.

Duty literally left her with no choice but to attack there, since it was the only way to try and save Slately. She knew it wasn't tactically ideal, but it was better than letting her entire side get wiped out.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:42 am

Lamech wrote:The erfworlders seem to have a serious lack of work ethic in general compared to earth units. I mean we don't hear about most casters (except Sizemore) doing things like training or taking lessons to improve themselves. Compare to earth were the standard training regimen takes a couple thousand turns. With more tacked on for extra stuff.


Experience leveling probably messes with that need. You fight, you get experience, you level and you abilities/stats are improved, while it is possible no matter how hard you try with other things you will never gain a mechanical bonus (or the ability to do it). No matter how much time Stabber Xample spends at the bank he isn't going to become an economist capable of boosting his sides earnings per turn. No matter how much time Stabber Xample spends following a healomancer around he wont be able to become a doctor, nurse or even be able to bring first aid to bear on a wounded ally.

We have learned training is an option for a dedicated unit, but it seems a lot of units live fast and die low level. Remember the list of sons Slately was thinking about who are all gone? And all that training did was provide levels (Artemis, royal warlord, trained, got levels and became a stronger royal warlord. No evidence she could have trained as a caster or a fabricator like a twoll for example).

The MK has a distinct lack of much in the way of buildings. Yes, the hippie's have the Gazeebo, and the thinkamancers have one temple, but really? You think they could do some more work; maybe even make a few little towns. Bogroll making someone some armor is considered a special gift? Having someone spend a day making something is something special? Really? A day to make armor? How long did it take to make cheap armor in earth's history again? Let alone armor good enough to put on an elite unit?


Eh, game like physics.

And really, they need a sustenance hack? On earth with no magic we are fully capable of providing enough food for billions. Maybe farming is harder or units need to eat more or something, but otherwise? Fail.


I always pictured the level of city automatically decides how many farms it would have and their level of productivity being linked to the city (GK and Charlescomm don't exactly strike me as breadbasket cities, while Jetstone cities do). Plus Erfworlders don't get to be like us, no digging up the wilds surrounding the city and planting seeds etc because Erfworld doesn't work that way. They don't have tractors, plows, fetilizer, irrigation etc or any of that, and even if Parson described it and they went through the motions of making plows and shackling them to twolls and using them presumably it wouldn't make any difference because Erfworld's food production doesn't operate like that (not sure if weather plays a part either - does Erfworld have droughts? Monsoons?)

And they took most of the damage against unled dwagons. Unled dwagons can't just cut through anything. They aren't all powerful.
But the Jetstone forces are about to go down to the dwagon army. Everything that Jetstone can do is naught against in a straight up fight against a team of dwagons. And these guys are raiders/siege too. Soo... weak? They're winning right now. They are super-fast, better than knights, and come with a bunch of amazing specials. They seem to be on par in straight up combat against high level warlords, but that makes them... one of the best combat units in Erfworld, highly mobile, with a useful ability on top of that. I think that makes them pretty dang powerful.


I'm not sure that is the case, since nobody in comic (Parson, Trem, Caesar, Wanda) seemed to be under the impression that the 40 something dwagons they have would be sufficient to take Jetsones forces by themselves. Caesar and Trem's primary concern about winning was based on the the pliers, while Parson apparently feels it is not such a sure thing his own presence there isn't necessary. Wanda and Antium also don't seem to be of the opinion "well, we have enough dwagons to carry the day". Wanda pretty much said "I don't know how to win this, but Parson's on his way, so it will all be great".

And, uh, super fast? Surprisingly swift maybe (for something rarely seen on the ground), but never described as super fast.

Don't think so. I think being restricted by lack of move is unique to the current situation. If they were out in the forest they could take off and land all day.


I had thought it was due to the whole city zone thing (being unable to return to the airspace), but lack of move makes a lot more sense.

Also I don't think Artemis really understood the whole decryption thing. She was complaining about her lack of a chance at glory. But she's about to get her chance at glory! If Ossomer croaks she'll probably be the highest level GK warlord pretty soon. Can't get a better shot than leading the charge with Parson.


That is an interesting idea, one with potential (though I would like for the sides opposing GK to have interesting and capable individuals as well).

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Therefore, it's not unlikely that in some later text update we'll get to see why Sylvia had this much luck, and it will be an awesome explanation. I also conjecture that Sylvia's run of good luck was merely a side-effect and not the primary goal of whoever was influencing things.


I like the way you think, and I expect you are right on this.

tennisplaya wrote:One of the things I was really struck by in this update was how weak dwagons seemed to be. As far as we know, the main the the Hammer does is tames Dwagons. The arkenpliers can raise a whole army. So it seems like the dwagons should be really powerful if that's all the hammer gets. And they were unled, but still there were six dwagons vs. 12 knights and a warlord right? And they killed like 1 knight and hurt most of the others, but that's it?


The arkenpliers can raise a whole army assuming you have one lying around (croaked). Which isn't the most common occurrence.

And the hammer has shown all sorts of other tricks, same with Charlie's dish, but the pliers have only been seen to do one thing for Wanda - decrypt.

lodo_bear wrote: A real pity. We haven't seen them wreak real havoc since Parson had them shred Ansom's siege engines.


Which involved them using their natural advantages - high move, flight, breath weapons and while flying being untouchable except for archers (or other flyers). Three of which have been taken out of the equation here since they are stuck gallumphing around on the ground in a mostly unled state.

In such circumstances a well coordinated team of knights (which outnumbered the dwagons slightly and who had initiative) were able to successfully take them down with injuries. However even against an acknowledged weaker type (purples) one on one between a knight and a dwagon was bad news for the knight, especially with the stack being led.
Last edited by Dancing Cthulhu on Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Berserkas » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:33 am

GK will gain 12 knights,


Nnnnnnnnope. 11, at most, maybe less.

A sonic blast wave hit the stone at the Valkyrie's feet, churning up the ground and completely blowing the enemy unit to pieces. At the same moment, the Jetstone warlord loosed her arrow.


It is a known fact that you cannot decrypt/uncroak a unit if it's body gets destroyed somehow, just like Wanda couldn't decrypt Bogroll.

Also, i'm pretty sure Wanda's bonuses as a croakamancer do not apply. Dungeon is a different city zone from Garrison and Tower, so the Dwagons were a bit weaker for that.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Raza » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:43 am

Angband wrote:When Stanley attuned there was a sparkly special effect.

When Wanda attuned there was a sparkly special effect.

When precrypted Sylvia held the 'pliers there was no sparkly special effect.

Therefore the idea that Sylvia attuned to the 'pliers is completely unsupported.

That's not Stanley attuning; he already has dwagons with him, and they're ridden so therefore not wild. That's Stanley taming a random dwagon, or possibly receiving Wanda's thinkagram.

Wanda got sparkles... but Wanda's a caster who seemed to immediately grasp her tools functioning, so she could've been trying any number of things with it during those first moments. AFAIC, sparkles during attunement is up in the air.

Berserkas wrote:Nnnnnnnnope. 11, at most, maybe less.

It is a known fact that you cannot decrypt/uncroak a unit if it's body gets destroyed somehow, just like Wanda couldn't decrypt Bogroll.

Also, i'm pretty sure Wanda's bonuses as a croakamancer do not apply. Dungeon is a different city zone from Garrison and Tower, so the Dwagons were a bit weaker for that.

M'not so sure; we've seen a lot of heavily damaged bodies decrypted after the volcano. The Archons were falling from the sky engulfed in flame (falling from that high will crush a normal body - it will scatter a heavily burned one), and Gobwin Knob got 28 out of 30, tops - possibly 28 our of 28. It's been theorised that Bogroll was un-decryptable because his body had been intentionally destroyed, counting as a separate game mechanic from the damage a living unit's body takes while being killed. I prefer this explanation to avoid drawing arbitrary and unpredictable lines, and also because it fits neatly into the other rules for bodies (moving it, for example, is a discrete action that prevents it being de-popped - not just the act of placing it elsewhere).

I am sure that the dungeon isn't a separate city zone, however. Dungeons/airspace/city+wall/garrison are the city zones. Tower, dungeon and atrium are all part of the garrison zone. Wanda should be giving all GB units in Spacerock her hex-wide bonus.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:15 am

Berserkas wrote:
GK will gain 12 knights,


Nnnnnnnnope. 11, at most, maybe less.

A sonic blast wave hit the stone at the Valkyrie's feet, churning up the ground and completely blowing the enemy unit to pieces. At the same moment, the Jetstone warlord loosed her arrow.


It is a known fact that you cannot decrypt/uncroak a unit if it's body gets destroyed somehow, just like Wanda couldn't decrypt Bogroll.

Also, i'm pretty sure Wanda's bonuses as a croakamancer do not apply. Dungeon is a different city zone from Garrison and Tower, so the Dwagons were a bit weaker for that.


I didn't remember that (been a while since I've been back to the rules about decryption), so it would seem at least one knight is beyond decryption.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby DevilDan » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:26 am

Nah, you don't kill Vurp off just like that...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby ZevGun » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:59 am

I don't think anyone's influencing this little battle.

Sylvia may or may not have some form of plot armor, but I agree with whoever said all the random debris is just an interesting way of saying the shots were a miss. It makes for a more exciting/interesting story. Though, I can see how too many of these chance deflections could be interpreted as the DM fudging numbers behind the screen.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby kineticdragon » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:21 pm

Great Update!

I personally don't have a problem with the arrows hitting debris. I just look at the collisions in game terms, but with a DM/GM who knows how the build excitement. Take 3.5 DND for instance: When you shoot into a battle or cover the target gets different percentages of cover (tons of various factors/rules as well). If the player rolls a 18 but needs a 19 (out of 20) to hit the arrow is considered to have hit something in the way. In the situation as presented, hitting falling debris (since they are fighting under a crumbling tower), makes complete sense. In fact, during play I would tell players "you have a shot at the commander, but you have 60% of your arrow hitting debris, other units, etc..." Coverage rules apply to DND, many board games, heck even FPS shooter games have missions where stuff is falling around you and obscuring your shots.

What I've heard from players in the past is that they would rather hear about how their arrow/spell/throw was obstructed by some random bird flying by and getting in the way than "missed again". Yes, it does loose its effectiveness if overused, but really helps build excitement and memorable moments when done correctly.

Arrows hitting other arrows? In real life that is a near impossible, but some games have special feats you can take that allow stunts like this. I don't see problem with it when you have characters flying around shooting fireballs out of their finger tips, surviving falls from great heights, or magical weapons that allow for advantages we can't comprehend.

Great update! I was slowly starting to loose interest in Erfworld over the last couple months but updates like this (the last few really) keep me coming back.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby dirocyn » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:58 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:
teratorn wrote:
tennisplaya wrote:One of the things I was really struck by in this update was how weak dwagons seemed to be.


I feel the opposite, on the ground they killed knights stacked with a level 8 warlord (Jillian killed a dwagon fighting solo). I expected much better from knights, those guys were all supposed to be high level, and with another high level stacked as a bonus. It means JS is done, stacks of regular units won't stand a change against dwagons.


Leadership is indeed very important. Remember that text update where GK's unled infantry auto-charges Jetstone, and an unled squad of GK stabbers is taking/inflicting losses 3 to 1 against a led stack of Jetstone stabbers by a simple level 1 warlord. A lv 8 warlord would certainly provide a brutal bonus.

Notice that when Artemis crashed into Sylvia's stack, only one purple bited it before they were wiped out, as that stack benefited from Sylvia's own leadership.

Leadership is just that good. It turns measly bats into heavies if you have enough of it.


Yes, leadership is a very important factor. Each knight in Artemis's stack would have had a +8.
Very likely Tram's "chief warlord in-hex" bonus equals Wanda's "pliers in hex" bonus. Also, the knights stack had 13 units, so it got the maximum stack bonus (max bonus is for 8 units) while the unled dwagons were a stack of 6. And we've got the number of attacks: 4 knights attacked each Green, and wiped out 3. Artemis herself (who does get the stack bonus, at least) one-shotted a red. Perhaps with a crit.

So green dwagons (who have probably already been peppered with arrows) can't withstand 4 hits from knights. At least not from knights with these bonuses. 4 hits with a big sword is a big deal. A big +8 sword, effectively. I seriously doubt if there are any units that can take that kind of punishment.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby suryasm » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:21 pm

OK, let's break down the attacks made by Artemis:

Attack 1: Crit fail against Sylvia
Attack 2: Crit success against a dwagon
Attack 3: Miss (Not necessarily a crit fail, as unlike last time, she had no time to aim, and was shooting at a target who was aware of her)
Attack 4: Hit (On Archer, who was on foot and taking cover, so probably a high roll)
Attack 5: Miss

Take out all the fol-de-rol about arrows hitting helmets and masonry, and did Artemis have bad luck? Yes. Was it bad enough to assume some kind of interference? Not really. And when you consider how well the knights did against the dwagons (having been surprised by 6 of them!) and all-in-all, I'd say Jetstone just had an average day at the office. Some attacks hit, some missed. A few crits, a few fumbles.

It only looks like Fate or some such is interfering because all the characters (and by extension, the readers) are all thinking about it, and everyone is so focused on Sylvia. So she had a lucky fight - which gamer among us hasn't had one of those? Archer had good luck too, hitting with that last plunging shot, but Artemis was so demoralized by that time she wasn't even paying attention, so the shot was probably easier than it looked.

Sure, I could be wrong, this could be foreshadowing the presence of some Power interfering on behalf of GK. But unless proven otherwise, I'm going with "Rob is doing the literary equivalent of the Kansas City Shuffle". ;)

Oh, and this was an awesome update. Not so much for content, as for execution. A very chaotic combat sequence, very skillfully handled. The action flowed so smoothly that in spite of so much happening, you could follow every nuance. :D
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Housellama » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:27 pm

suryasm wrote:OK, let's break down the attacks made by Artemis:

(Insert breakdown of Artemis's shots)

all-in-all, I'd say Jetstone just had an average day at the office. Some attacks hit, some missed. A few crits, a few fumbles.

(insert gaming talk here)

Sure, I could be wrong, this could be foreshadowing the presence of some Power interfering on behalf of GK. But unless proven otherwise, I'm going with "Rob is doing the literary equivalent of the Kansas City Shuffle". ;)

Oh, and this was an awesome update. Not so much for content, as for execution. A very chaotic combat sequence, very skillfully handled. The action flowed so smoothly that in spite of so much happening, you could follow every nuance. :D


Thank you for putting into words what I couldn't quite phrase correctly. +1 this!
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

"The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Lamech » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:35 pm

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
Lamech wrote:The erfworlders seem to have a serious lack of work ethic in general compared to earth units. I mean we don't hear about most casters (except Sizemore) doing things like training or taking lessons to improve themselves. Compare to earth were the standard training regimen takes a couple thousand turns. With more tacked on for extra stuff.


Experience leveling probably messes with that need. You fight, you get experience, you level and you abilities/stats are improved, while it is possible no matter how hard you try with other things you will never gain a mechanical bonus (or the ability to do it). No matter how much time Stabber Xample spends at the bank he isn't going to become an economist capable of boosting his sides earnings per turn. No matter how much time Stabber Xample spends following a healomancer around he wont be able to become a doctor, nurse or even be able to bring first aid to bear on a wounded ally.

We have learned training is an option for a dedicated unit, but it seems a lot of units live fast and die low level. Remember the list of sons Slately was thinking about who are all gone? And all that training did was provide levels (Artemis, royal warlord, trained, got levels and became a stronger royal warlord. No evidence she could have trained as a caster or a fabricator like a twoll for example).
We know you can train up as a knight, and train up levels. Casters can pick up other disciplines. That is still something.
The MK has a distinct lack of much in the way of buildings. Yes, the hippie's have the Gazeebo, and the thinkamancers have one temple, but really? You think they could do some more work; maybe even make a few little towns. Bogroll making someone some armor is considered a special gift? Having someone spend a day making something is something special? Really? A day to make armor? How long did it take to make cheap armor in earth's history again? Let alone armor good enough to put on an elite unit?


Eh, game like physics.
? That is why Bogroll builds armor in a day. But buildings can be built. The question is why there isn't more of it. Why doesn't every troll make a chief warlord quality of plate each turn? Why doesn't the MK have towns? They could do it.
And really, they need a sustenance hack? On earth with no magic we are fully capable of providing enough food for billions. Maybe farming is harder or units need to eat more or something, but otherwise? Fail.


I always pictured the level of city automatically decides how many farms it would have and their level of productivity being linked to the city (GK and Charlescomm don't exactly strike me as breadbasket cities, while Jetstone cities do). Plus Erfworlders don't get to be like us, no digging up the wilds surrounding the city and planting seeds etc because Erfworld doesn't work that way. They don't have tractors, plows, fetilizer, irrigation etc or any of that, and even if Parson described it and they went through the motions of making plows and shackling them to twolls and using them presumably it wouldn't make any difference because Erfworld's food production doesn't operate like that (not sure if weather plays a part either - does Erfworld have droughts? Monsoons?)
IIRC both the casters in the MK farm, and more importantly wild tribes farm and mine in the wild.
And they took most of the damage against unled dwagons. Unled dwagons can't just cut through anything. They aren't all powerful.
But the Jetstone forces are about to go down to the dwagon army. Everything that Jetstone can do is naught against in a straight up fight against a team of dwagons. And these guys are raiders/siege too. Soo... weak? They're winning right now. They are super-fast, better than knights, and come with a bunch of amazing specials. They seem to be on par in straight up combat against high level warlords, but that makes them... one of the best combat units in Erfworld, highly mobile, with a useful ability on top of that. I think that makes them pretty dang powerful.


I'm not sure that is the case, since nobody in comic (Parson, Trem, Caesar, Wanda) seemed to be under the impression that the 40 something dwagons they have would be sufficient to take Jetsones forces by themselves. Caesar and Trem's primary concern about winning was based on the the pliers, while Parson apparently feels it is not such a sure thing his own presence there isn't necessary. Wanda and Antium also don't seem to be of the opinion "well, we have enough dwagons to carry the day". Wanda pretty much said "I don't know how to win this, but Parson's on his way, so it will all be great".
True. But the fact is the tower is about to fall and all of Jetstone's attempts have failed. Those dwagons are about to win the battle.
And, uh, super fast? Surprisingly swift maybe (for something rarely seen on the ground), but never described as super fast.
There move, not in hex speed.
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