Book 2 – Text Updates 052

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby drachefly » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:36 pm

pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:I personally don't have a problem with the arrows hitting debris. I just look at the collisions in game terms, but with a DM/GM who knows how the build excitement.… Erfworld was not intended to be a field guide to sniping in stupid world. It is just good fiction.



Yes. The thing is, there are two very significant differences between the world of an RPG and Erfworld.

1) Erfworld is not a game
2) RPGs' outcomes are not planned out in advance by a single author

Events in RPGs can be described however is desired for local purposes without impinging on any greater plan. Erfworld, being first and foremost, a story, and a tightly written one at that, does not permit this. The pieces can and do fit together to form a coherent whole. And that implies that this means something. A series of bad rolls is not meaningful.

Therefore, I absolutely reject the notion that this is simply a series of handwavey ordinary misses. A story incorporating such an element with the treatment given is malformed unless luck - and not fate, as the case is here - is a major theme of the work.


(edited: sentence needed verb. You can see the original version in Bland's quote)
Last edited by drachefly on Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:47 am

Hmm, the proximate cause of Parson's summoning was depicted to be the result of an event without Titanic intent: a gem falling off one of their capes. If that was Fate, and it may well have been, then Fate is not the Titans' will. Was there a hint somewhere that the Arkentools were left behind by "accident"? I wonder if the Royalists are right about what the Titans' will is/was, though not necessarily justified in following it.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Kreistor » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:20 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:-GK geting an attuned tool wielder.


One thing a lot of people miss is the true meaning of "bubble kingdom". A bubble kingdom is a kingdom that can exist without attacking it's neighbours. (Some people misinterpret it as a kingdom that can hide from everyone.) Parson talks about trying to figure out how to create Sides that don't need to attack in one of his Klogs. Caesar talks about the need to attack his neighbours. What it comes down to is this: some element in the world forces Sides into eternal conflict, merely to eat, but prevents growth beyond a certain point.

To break that eternal stalemate, game breaking elements are necessary. Consequently, for Parson to have been summoned to bring Peace to the world, he had to be brought to a Side with something exceptional to allow him to break through the limit on Side size, to whit, an attuned Arkentool. Basically, you're putting the cart in front of the horse. Parson was summoned because the Side had an Arkentool, and there would be no story if GK didn't have one. this is merely ensuring parson has a rope to get off the cliff, because wihtout the Arkentools, he'd be stuck on the same cliffside as everyone else, regardless of the normal weapons given to him. Parson can't achieve Peace without a cheat code, because like his own game he was pulled away from, the players can't win without cheating.

-Wanda surviving very dangerous falls twice by now.


The first would have killed her without a Healing scroll, so alone she would have died. She failed that roll. The only luck was that she survived long enough to be recovered.

And for the second, you'll note that many people survived the fall. The luck wasn't that Wanda survived, since many did, it was that Jack survived and wasn't knocked out, so he could heal her again; however, given that so many did survive (Archer, fud, other hobgobs, Jack, Sylvia), the chance of death wasn't particularly high. Even the chance of unconsciousness wasn't high, since only Wanda of that list was knocked out. As far as luck goes, it's not an exceptional case.

-Wanda miracously recovering from Jillian breaking out of mind control to provide suport.


Nothing special about that, because we don't know what the norm for that event should have been. She may have been more affected than others in the same situation, for all we know. To identify a lucky case, we need a point of reference, and we don't have one here.

-Ansom sparing Wanda.


Not luck. Wanda bluffed the man.

-Charlie deciding to reveal his hand of archons and then just leting them sit there, despite knowing hamster had still Aces up his sleeve, and heck, Charlie could've just asked Hamster what was the probabilty of him profiting if he didn't capture Hamster right away! But Mr-Chessmaster aparently had a sudden brain trauma, quite lucky for GK.


Everyone has personality flaws. Charlie's flaw was arrogance. If he had a different flaw, he'd have made a different mistake.

But I'll disagree with the assumption that Charlie was carrying the stupid ball. He had good reasons not to assault GK and capture it in front of the might of the Alliance. Even if he did and took Parson, he had to look at the chance the Royals would come after him for the presumption. it would cost him any chance of more mercenary work from at least 4 Sides. As much as Parson might be worth to him, losing everything for getting him was not worth the cost. Instead, Charlie took the highest risk for reward choice, the one where the most likely winner wins, he gets a bonus if Parson is captured, and he continues his mercenary business. Let's not forget that Charlie was willing to take just the Mathemancy bracelet off Parson's corpse, so his desire for Parson is not pathological.

-The volcano nuke working beyond all expectations despite having been a desesperate move put up togheter in the last second.


Many people on this site predicted that event. it was no more effective than that crowd predicted. (And please review death rates in the vicinity of exploding volcanoes. They're pretty lethal, with pyroclastic flows and all.)

-Hamster being able to travel to the magic kingdom despite being a warlord and everybody telling him he would die if he tried.


Again, if necessary to bring Peace to the world, then it was mandatory Parson be able to, not lucky that he could.

-Mountain revealing new gem deposit that Sizemore somehow never hadn't detected before.


That was lucky. You get that one.

-GK's enemies keep trusting Jillian with the most important tasks, despite she having let Wanda escape alive several times by now.


"Several"? Jillian was only in a position to try to kill Wanda once before Jetstone, and even that was only an illusion. Wanda had the advantage with all of GK's anti-air spells at her back.

-Jetstone nominating mr.diplomat for Chief Warlord.


Last son left. Not lucky, merely the sign of an overly aggressive Side that has gone through many heirs over the Turns.

Now compare with Haggar, who was suposed to have profited greatly from all this affair, and at the end of the day lost their prince and a good chunk of troops because Charlie decided to use them as puppets.


Being manipulated is not "unluck". It's being used.

Compare with Unaroyal, completely wiped out because the enemy now had two attuned tool wielders instead of just one (double jackpot!) and they had no way of figuring out how to counter it before it was too late.


That's not luck, that's good strategic sense. GK hid their advantage until Unaroyal couldn't win.

Now that I agree with. The arrows missing may be simply a reflection of Sylvia geting Warlord Archer bonus and Croakmancer Wanda bonus and artifact bonus while Artemis just lost her own CWL bonus. In particular because Artemis tought Wanda had retreated to the magic kingdom.


We don't know if two Warlords in the same stack give their bonus to each other. At the very least, I would expect the higher level to give bonus to the lower, which explains why Captain Archer was such a great shot, and Sylvia wasn't meleeing. If Archer got a +6 (on top of Wanda's and the Arkentool) and Sylvia got nothing of note, she's better off guiding the attack, while Captain Archer nails targets from range. And that explains why Archer could even intercept arrow on arrow from a higher level warlord and croak her with an impossible arcing shot, since Artemis was getting no bonus of note.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Dr Pepper » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:43 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Ok, enough. Unlike the above counter-example to your statement, we would have had a precedent for said ability (foreshadowing!) and its subsequent application.

But you (and others) seem dead-set that parrying couldn't have worked. Why? Is it because you saw Rob saying something on IRC, as Ytaker PMed me to say? What did Rob write there?


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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:25 am

Kreistor wrote: Parson was summoned because the Side had an Arkentool, and there would be no story if GK didn't have one. this is merely ensuring parson has a rope to get off the cliff, because wihtout the Arkentools, he'd be stuck on the same cliffside as everyone else, regardless of the normal weapons given to him. Parson can't achieve Peace without a cheat code, because like his own game he was pulled away from, the players can't win without cheating.

Except we were discussing GK's luck, not Hamster's luck. You can't deny that Gobwin Knob hit the big jackpot by geting an attuned tool wielder to start with.

Kreistor wrote:The first would have killed her without a Healing scroll, so alone she would have died. She failed that roll. The only luck was that she survived long enough to be recovered.

And for the second, you'll note that many people survived the fall. The luck wasn't that Wanda survived, since many did, it was that Jack survived and wasn't knocked out, so he could heal her again; however, given that so many did survive (Archer, fud, other hobgobs, Jack, Sylvia), the chance of death wasn't particularly high. Even the chance of unconsciousness wasn't high, since only Wanda of that list was knocked out. As far as luck goes, it's not an exceptional case.

Not big luck, but still luck when you perform the same risky action multiple times with the irreplaceable unit and she keeps surviving.

Kreistor wrote:Nothing special about that, because we don't know what the norm for that event should have been. She may have been more affected than others in the same situation, for all we know. To identify a lucky case, we need a point of reference, and we don't have one here.

We have Maggie pointing out she wouldn't recover that turn.

Kreistor wrote:Not luck. Wanda bluffed the man.

Big damn luck. Bluffing involves your oponent falling for it. As a veteran warrior, Ansom should should know better than let a weakened vulnerable key unit live to wreck more havoc.

Kreistor wrote:But I'll disagree with the assumption that Charlie was carrying the stupid ball. He had good reasons not to assault GK and capture it in front of the might of the Alliance. Even if he did and took Parson, he had to look at the chance the Royals would come after him for the presumption. it would cost him any chance of more mercenary work from at least 4 Sides. As much as Parson might be worth to him, losing everything for getting him was not worth the cost. Instead, Charlie took the highest risk for reward choice, the one where the most likely winner wins, he gets a bonus if Parson is captured, and he continues his mercenary business. Let's not forget that Charlie was willing to take just the Mathemancy bracelet off Parson's corpse, so his desire for Parson is not pathological.

I'll repeat again in bolded since it seems you missed it.

Charlie could've just burned out more mathmancy calculations to figure out the best strategy for the turn. He intended to capture/croack Hamster on that very turn anyway, he had no reason whatsoever to hold the calculations back. Thus he has no excuses to see it coming when he could've forced out all the odds of the day out of Hamster (instead of just the odds of GK surviving the day whitout archion interference).

Also leting your contractor walking to a parley that you know is a trap won't score a lot of points with your other clients.


Kreistor wrote:Many people on this site predicted that event. it was no more effective than that crowd predicted. (And please review death rates in the vicinity of exploding volcanoes. They're pretty lethal, with pyroclastic flows and all.)

It was much more effective than the crowd predicted, because not only it killed everything in the RC, it left all their bodies ready for decryption.

So burning down Bogroll with improvised torches prevents decryption, but angry volcano covering everybody in burning lava leaves their bodies just slightly charred and ready to be re-animated. Now that's awfully convenient.

And please review the very few remains of people an exploding volcano leaves. They pretty much don't leave anything of a living body behind, temperatures in the thousands of celsius and all.

Kreistor wrote:Again, if necessary to bring Peace to the world, then it was mandatory Parson be able to, not lucky that he could.

No it wasn't. How could they know that Hamster would be cornered against the wall but be able to activate a super nuke that demanded a safe spot to run away?

And even if they knew it, how could they grant that ability to Hamster when it clearly breaks the laws of Erfworld?

If they can grant any ability to Hamster, why simply don't grant him god mode and let him plow trough the enemy armies by himself while shrugging off everything? Or heck, just the ability to ride mounts would be convenient.

Kreistor wrote:"Several"? Jillian was only in a position to try to kill Wanda once before Jetstone, and even that was only an illusion. Wanda had the advantage with all of GK's anti-air spells at her back.


It was clearly explained that Jillian could've finished of Wanda after the first volley, in particular this being a turn-based world and everything.

Then we have Transylvito crippling their own side to finance Jillian, which then proceeds to leg it out, whereas if Transylvito fighted by themselves their super bat swarm would certainly have stood a better chance.

Kreistor wrote:Last son left. Not lucky, merely the sign of an overly aggressive Side that has gone through many heirs over the Turns.

You can nominate any warlord as CW, not only sons. Choosing mr.diplomat when you need to do serious combat now was a big blessing for GK.

Kreistor wrote:
Now compare with Haggar, who was suposed to have profited greatly from all this affair, and at the end of the day lost their prince and a good chunk of troops because Charlie decided to use them as puppets.


Being manipulated is not "unluck". It's being used.

It is unluck when suddenly everybody in the world is ganking on you out of nowhere. You have big nasty GK to worry about, and then Charlie threatens your capital, and then your suposed ally Jillian drops in the middle of battle just to distract you from fighting the enemy leader which takes the opening to shiskebash you.

Kreistor wrote:That's not luck, that's good strategic sense. GK hid their advantage until Unaroyal couldn't win.

They didn't hid their advantage, they pulled out a massive army out of nowhere when they suposedly had almost nothing left because the arkenpliers power was perfectly convenient to that situation (limitless decryption and thousands of bodies for the taking despite the fact they should've been reduced to ashes).

Kreistor wrote:We don't know if two Warlords in the same stack give their bonus to each other. At the very least, I would expect the higher level to give bonus to the lower, which explains why Captain Archer was such a great shot, and Sylvia wasn't meleeing. If Archer got a +6 (on top of Wanda's and the Arkentool) and Sylvia got nothing of note, she's better off guiding the attack, while Captain Archer nails targets from range. And that explains why Archer could even intercept arrow on arrow from a higher level warlord and croak her with an impossible arcing shot, since Artemis was getting no bonus of note.


Multiple-Warlord stack of doom is a very popular tactic in Erfworld, so clearly Warlords can benefit each other. Sylvia may not gain as much from Archer as he gets from her, but is certainly gaining something. Quite common in wargames, an unit grants a bonus to everybody else, so you you put two of those units togheter so they grant each other the bonus as well.

And Sylvia wasn't meeling simply because she was imobilized.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby The.Healing.Mage » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:00 am

Kreistor wrote:
-Ansom sparing Wanda.


Not luck. Wanda bluffed the man.

When bluffing, it helps to have significant forces right behind you. See Sizemore and the 11-odd rock golems he appeared stacked with.

Now compare with Haggar, who was suposed to have profited greatly from all this affair, and at the end of the day lost their prince and a good chunk of troops because Charlie decided to use them as puppets.


Being manipulated is not "unluck". It's being used.


Charlie would prefer you to say "paid to turn it into a winning scenario". Except not this time. Charlie has declared war on Parson and Wanda personally. He's picking up every tool (and Tool) he can get to fight them. One of them was Haggar. Another was Jillian. Remember Kingworld? He was fronting Vanna's bill, and I don't remember if it was said explicitly, but he was presumed to be the thinkamancer (via the 'dish) in the Link. Also, Jojo nearly banished Parson from Erf. Jojo is presumed by many on this forum to be working for/with Charlie. Charlie is reading Parson's tactical notes and informing others. Charlie has become a player in this game (I'm not sure if that's the setup or the punchline of the pun, though) and Haggar suffered because he was going to try and capitalize on the situation when what Jetstone (and thus Charlie) needed was assistance.

EDIT: And where did you get this lovely assertion?
oslecamo2_temp wrote:And Sylvia wasn't meeling simply because she was imobilized.
She was pinned under her dwagon, yes. That was like, 20 minutes ago. You'll note that in the artwork she's riding a Purple, commanding the siege stack (and granting it her bonus). She can move around all she wants. The dwagon that pinned her presumably got Decrypted.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:31 am

drachefly wrote:Events in RPGs can be described however is desired for local purposes without impinging on any greater plan. Erfworld, being first and foremost, a story, and a tightly written one at that, does not. The pieces can and do fit together to form a coherent whole. And that implies that this means something. A series of bad rolls is not meaningful.


Words of wisdom these, and an illustration of the complicated relation described by the sentence "Erfworld is not a game, but a story in a game-like universe".

A game can just happen. A (story) plot cannot just unfold through the path of most convenience. Things don't happen merely because they have to, that would be called lazy writing. Instead, there are (or should be) internally consistent reasons in the narrative to explain why it goes on like it does.

Dr Pepper wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:What did Rob write {on IRC}?


Hey-- you know you're only allowed to ask that in the Celestial Room!


B-b-b-but ... why?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby korbenm » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:44 am

The.Healing.Mage wrote:Charlie has declared war on Parson and Wanda personally.


Or someone hired him to work against GK. ;-)
Maybe annother side which wants GK to be distracted from the real Threat.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Kreistor » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:22 am

Except we were discussing GK's luck, not Hamster's luck. You can't deny that Gobwin Knob hit the big jackpot by geting an attuned tool wielder to start with.


Is Chrlescomm lucky? They got one too. Except there is no Charlescomm, not really, because Charlie is Howard Hughes and the Side is stagnant with no Warlords, no Heir, no Casters, and only wage slaves. Getting an attuned Arkentool is not inherently beneficial, and given GK's lead to the death of its King, not many inside GK would call it lucky, since after all, only Maggie and Sizemore might have survived since Stanley attuned. Everyone else is dead, and I don't think they'd call that lucky at all.

Not big luck, but still luck when you perform the same risky action multiple times with the irreplaceable unit and she keeps surviving.


No different from any other vital plot element. She's the rope. Not evidence of more luck than any other protagonist in any other story.

We have Maggie pointing out she wouldn't recover that turn.


No, she couldn't guarantee Wanda would recover at all. She never said anything about "this turn." Image 93, Book 1 if you need to review. Maggie was also ordered to do everything she could to help. What Maggie didn't say was, "I can't help her." That means that she could.

But again, Wanda is a rope. She and the pliers will be necessary until the end of the story, and the story ends with her. It is inherent in all stories that the rope exists.

Bluffing involves your oponent falling for it. As a veteran warrior, Ansom should should know better than let a weakened vulnerable key unit live to wreck more havoc.


Bluffing is a skill. It is learned. It is lying. And if Wanda is anything, she is definitely a practiced liar.

Charlie could've just burned out more mathmancy calculations to figure out the best strategy for the turn.


Spoken like someone that has never been involved in making a business decision in his entire life. You're expecting Charlie to expend massive resources to eliminate the possibility of something that had never happened before. Businessmen do not do that. They compare the probability of a disastrous event and cost of it occurring to the cost of what they need to do to prevent it. If the prevention is much higher, then they do not proceed with the preventive measures. In this case, the valuable calculations were worth more than the slim chance of disaster, even though the cost of the disaster was every unit in the hex.

Any IT security expert can give you that same equation.

It was much more effective than the crowd predicted, because not only it killed everything in the RC, it left all their bodies ready for decryption.


Even if I were to believe that (and I wouldn't because I was here from the start... every one of them predicted it would be Parson's ultimate victory move, so it achieved exactly what he predicted), all that is evidence of is the lack of knowledge many people have about volcanoes. Pyroclastic flows and ash kill far more victims than lava or ejecta and leave fully intact bodies. PF's kill through poison gas and searing temperatures, but leave bodies (Pompeii being the most obvious example). Ash kills by filling the lungs and turning into a cement that causes strangulation. The only bodies that would have been outright destroyed are the ones that were hit directly by magma flows.

No it wasn't. How could they know that Hamster would be cornered against the wall but be able to activate a super nuke that demanded a safe spot to run away?


Again, this is only evidence of the rope. Parson could because for the story to continue, he needed a rope. Not evidence of a divine hand, only that Rob needed Parson to be exceptional.

Had Rob decided not to go on with Book 2, Parson would have returned to Earth and the story ended. We would have seen the recovery from Wanda's viewpoint, as we did to start Book 1, for symmetry.

It was clearly explained that Jillian could've finished of Wanda after the first volley, in particular this being a turn-based world and everything.


And Wanda didn't croak Jillian, either. Given Wanda made that choice first, Jillian responding in kind is only a favour for a favour.

And that decision has now cost GK a Chief Warlord. It almost cost GK it's Ruler, (Jillian went on to try and kill Stanley). You're playing favorites with that encounter by looking only at the "luck" of Jillian loving Wanda, and not looking at the costs of Wanda loving Jillian. This has been both a boon and a curse for GK.

Then we have Transylvito crippling their own side to finance Jillian, which then proceeds to leg it out, whereas if Transylvito fighted by themselves their super bat swarm would certainly have stood a better chance.


Strategy is not luck. Failed strategy because you do not have all of the information that you need to devise a winning one is also not luck.

You can nominate any warlord as CW, not only sons. Choosing mr.diplomat when you need to do serious combat now was a big blessing for GK.


Royal side that had only ever raised Princes to CW. Not luck -- tradition. And predictable. You're expecting Slately to act out of character.

It is unluck when suddenly everybody in the world is ganking on you out of nowhere.


And like that never happened to GK. It's how the story started! Everyone ganging up to smash GK? The Alliance, remember?

You're calling it luck for GK when that happens to Haggar, but not recognize it is unluck when it happens to GK. Favoritism.

They didn't hid their advantage, they pulled out a massive army out of nowhere


The first Queen Bea knew of decrypted was when she faced her own daughter at her city's hexside. GK's secrets were kept until it was much too late for Unaroyal to use the correct tactic, which was to mass all forces and assault to overwhelm.

Multiple-Warlord stack of doom is a very popular tactic in Erfworld


We have [b]never]/b] seen anyone do that.

And that's definitely not the "Transylvito Way". One Warlord per stack. Chief Warlord to provide bonus to all units in hex. More bonus to own stack.

What Caesar did not do was put a second warlord in his own stack to gain his greater CW bonus.

If it's "popular", then you have lots of examples to cite, right? Because I can't think of a single one, excluding ones where numbers were below 9 so they were stacking for Stacking Bonus.

And Sylvia wasn't meeling simply because she was imobilized.


You're confused. I was talking about the encounter with Artemis, which should have been obvious because I was talking about Artemis. Sylvia was only immobilized while stuck under the dwagon.

os, I highly recommend you take a moment and sit down with a sheet of paper. Divide it in half. Now list all of the Lucky things on one side. List all of the unlucky things on the other. It's a lot more balanced than you seem to think.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Dr Pepper » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:33 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
drachefly wrote:Events in RPGs can be described however is desired for local purposes without impinging on any greater plan. Erfworld, being first and foremost, a story, and a tightly written one at that, does not. The pieces can and do fit together to form a coherent whole. And that implies that this means something. A series of bad rolls is not meaningful.


Words of wisdom these, and an illustration of the complicated relation described by the sentence "Erfworld is not a game, but a story in a game-like universe".

A game can just happen. A (story) plot cannot just unfold through the path of most convenience. Things don't happen merely because they have to, that would be called lazy writing. Instead, there are (or should be) internally consistent reasons in the narrative to explain why it goes on like it does.


It's a wave! And a particle! It's a dessert topping! And a floor wax!

Dr Pepper wrote:
Hey-- you know you're only allowed to ask that in the Celestial Room!


B-b-b-but ... why?


Because it's Sacred.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Lamech » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:37 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Not big luck, but still luck when you perform the same risky action multiple times with the irreplaceable unit and she keeps surviving.
The first time she fell she still had to attune to an arkentool. So death was not an option due to predictamancy.

Big damn luck. Bluffing involves your oponent falling for it. As a veteran warrior, Ansom should should know better than let a weakened vulnerable key unit live to wreck more havoc.
Bluff? Again she had to attune to an arkentool. Had the actually done so she would have attuned. I can't imagine holding the attuned arkentool of the person your trying to kill is healthy. And of course Sizemore was seconds away. Had he gotten there Ansom would have gotten ganked by multiple golems at the same time.
Also leting your contractor walking to a parley that you know is a trap won't score a lot of points with your other clients.
Charlie offers magical security. Charlie tells them "If you don't pay extra I will not help you".


So burning down Bogroll with improvised torches prevents decryption, but angry volcano covering everybody in burning lava leaves their bodies just slightly charred and ready to be re-animated. Now that's awfully convenient.

And please review the very few remains of people an exploding volcano leaves. They pretty much don't leave anything of a living body behind, temperatures in the thousands of celsius and all.
As pointed out, not how volcano's work.
And even if they knew it, how could they grant that ability to Hamster when it clearly breaks the laws of Erfworld?
That he is a caster? Or that the portal glitched out? Parson using the MK portal doesn't need to break any rules. Either a glitch or a caster special would work fine.
Then we have Transylvito crippling their own side to finance Jillian, which then proceeds to leg it out, whereas if Transylvito fighted by themselves their super bat swarm would certainly have stood a better chance.
Except for the fact that bats are slower? Or that GK can decrypt their bats after AoEing them and provide a much higher bonus to them, causing each decrypted bat to croak more bats, providing more bats and so forth until the entire swarm and all warlords are GK? Seriously the bat swarm tactic might as well be custom made to get wiped out by decryption.
You can nominate any warlord as CW, not only sons. Choosing mr.diplomat when you need to do serious combat now was a big blessing for GK.
The royals always choose royals. Had they not been obsessive like that they would have allied with GK.

Kreistor wrote:That's not luck, that's good strategic sense. GK hid their advantage until Unaroyal couldn't win.

They didn't hid their advantage, they pulled out a massive army out of nowhere when they suposedly had almost nothing left because the arkenpliers power was perfectly convenient to that situation (limitless decryption and thousands of bodies for the taking despite the fact they should've been reduced to ashes).
Yeah actually they did hide their advantage. Until the talk on decryption happened, everyone didn't know how it was happening. They knew GK had pulled an army from somewhere, and was turning powerful units. They assumed it might be another arkentool. They may have even figured out that GK had their units. But if they are attempting to deal with an enemy who just causes their enemies to turn, you fight it by increasing loyalty NOT by denying bodies. Totally different tactics. GK hid the key portion of there power.

Multiple-Warlord stack of doom is a very popular tactic in Erfworld, so clearly Warlords can benefit each other. Sylvia may not gain as much from Archer as he gets from her, but is certainly gaining something. Quite common in wargames, an unit grants a bonus to everybody else, so you you put two of those units togheter so they grant each other the bonus as well.
Warlords are also nearly as powerful as a dwagon. Multi-dwagon stack of doom is popular and yet I don't think dwagons provide each other leadership.
Kreistor wrote:Spoken like someone that has never been involved in making a business decision in his entire life. You're expecting Charlie to expend massive resources to eliminate the possibility of something that had never happened before. Businessmen do not do that. They compare the probability of a disastrous event and cost of it occurring to the cost of what they need to do to prevent it. If the prevention is much higher, then they do not proceed with the preventive measures. In this case, the valuable calculations were worth more than the slim chance of disaster, even though the cost of the disaster was every unit in the hex.

Any IT security expert can give you that same equation.
Nope, Charlie should have spent the calcs. Suppose everything will go according to plan? Charlie captures Parson or maybe just the bracer and has infinite calcs so spending one costs nothing. Suppose there is a good chance that things will go haywire? Well in that case there is a good chance Charlie loses out on his bracer. Charlie could have asked "What is the chance that I will end up with the bracer or the pliers if I end the turn and attack next turn?" If the chance is unacceptably high Charlie attacks, if its minor enough to accept it doesn't really matter anyway, as it cost him nothing.

Basically the chance that he won't get the bracer is the same as the chance using a calc costs anything. If its a tiny chance of catastrophe its a tiny chance of cost. Plus a bunch of bad things could have happened to cost him his bracer. Say... a bunch of units get uncroaked and GK suddenly becomes a much harder nut to crack? Or the coalition disolves and Parson hires some shaddy elves to shoot down the archons? Or suppose GK was able to hire a team of shockamancers for 150k? Or found the shockamancers in the MK wanted a big bag of free XP? I don't see why the chance of backfiring was small.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Saladman » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:38 pm

My strong impression -and I admit I don't have a positive citation, but I'm certain I haven't seen proof of the opposite- was that multiple regular warlord bonuses don't stack with each other, you just get the highest, but that you might still stack multiple warlords if they were your toughest units. Basically using warlords in place of heavies or high-level knights. So Jetstone did have a Royal Chief Warlord leading a stack of leveled Noble Warlords, but probably just to stack the Chief and one direct bonus on top of their base combat value.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:38 pm

Kreistor wrote:Is Chrlescomm lucky? They got one too. Except there is no Charlescomm, not really, because Charlie is Howard Hughes and the Side is stagnant with no Warlords, no Heir, no Casters, and only wage slaves. Getting an attuned Arkentool is not inherently beneficial, and given GK's lead to the death of its King, not many inside GK would call it lucky, since after all, only Maggie and Sizemore might have survived since Stanley attuned. Everyone else is dead, and I don't think they'd call that lucky at all.

Actually yes they do. Remember the chief gobwin of GK? He's the only survivor of his previous tribe, and he regrets nothing because despite all his brothers having died in horrible ways, his tribe ended up becoming extra powerful.

Erfworld works like a wargame. Life is cheap. Slatley sent two dozens of his sons to the meat grinder. Because what matters in the end is your side still standing, because otherwise you disband or get locked into a city waiting to be croaked (unless you're a mancer, but they're a minuscle fraction of the population).

Kreistor wrote:No different from any other vital plot element. She's the rope. Not evidence of more luck than any other protagonist in any other story.

Plot shield is just another word for luck.

Kreistor wrote:No, she couldn't guarantee Wanda would recover at all. She never said anything about "this turn." Image 93, Book 1 if you need to review. Maggie was also ordered to do everything she could to help. What Maggie didn't say was, "I can't help her." That means that she could.

Ok I'll give you that one.

Kreistor wrote:Bluffing is a skill. It is learned. It is lying. And if Wanda is anything, she is definitely a practiced liar.

Ok, so Wanda is the damn luckiest unit in Erfworld because she has literally everything:
-Exceptionally talented caster able to dable in all styles at ease.
-Natural seducer.
-Natural fighter going toe to toe with elite warlords.
-And now aparently also a master manipulator who can send elite warlords away with a single look.

Kreistor wrote:Spoken like someone that has never been involved in making a business decision in his entire life. You're expecting Charlie to expend massive resources to eliminate the possibility of something that had never happened before. Businessmen do not do that. They compare the probability of a disastrous event and cost of it occurring to the cost of what they need to do to prevent it. If the prevention is much higher, then they do not proceed with the preventive measures. In this case, the valuable calculations were worth more than the slim chance of disaster, even though the cost of the disaster was every unit in the hex.

Spoken like someone who has never never been able to rub more than two tought patterns togheter on his entire life.

Charlie planned to either croak or capture Hamster at the end of the turn. Any remaining calculations would be useless so he may as well burn them all now to make sure nothing would go wrong. Point. That should be simple enough for you to understand.


Kreistor wrote:Even if I were to believe that (and I wouldn't because I was here from the start... every one of them predicted it would be Parson's ultimate victory move, so it achieved exactly what he predicted), all that is evidence of is the lack of knowledge many people have about volcanoes. Pyroclastic flows and ash kill far more victims than lava or ejecta and leave fully intact bodies. PF's kill through poison gas and searing temperatures, but leave bodies (Pompeii being the most obvious example). Ash kills by filling the lungs and turning into a cement that causes strangulation. The only bodies that would have been outright destroyed are the ones that were hit directly by magma flows.

Screw your select examples of stupidworld. Just look at the damn comic itself

Image
See the archons falling in flames? See all the red and yellow fire? See all the burning lava fully covering the battlefield? Where's all your fancy poison gas and strangulation in there?

Kreistor wrote:Again, this is only evidence of the rope. Parson could because for the story to continue, he needed a rope. Not evidence of a divine hand, only that Rob needed Parson to be exceptional.

Had Rob decided not to go on with Book 2, Parson would have returned to Earth and the story ended. We would have seen the recovery from Wanda's viewpoint, as we did to start Book 1, for symmetry.

Then GK is still the luckiest side of all, because they were selected as the protagonists and things will always go their way no matter what.

Kreistor wrote:And Wanda didn't croak Jillian, either. Given Wanda made that choice first, Jillian responding in kind is only a favour for a favour.

No, Wanda leting Jillian go was a tactical genius move. The barbarian girl has been doing plenty of sabotage for the RC II. Bankrupting Transylvito, distracting Haggar's troops, planting illusions of grandeur in Trems, you name it.

Kreistor wrote:And that decision has now cost GK a Chief Warlord. It almost cost GK it's Ruler, (Jillian went on to try and kill Stanley). You're playing favorites with that encounter by looking only at the "luck" of Jillian loving Wanda, and not looking at the costs of Wanda loving Jillian. This has been both a boon and a curse for GK.

Stanley survived didn't he? Ansom having been captured actualy opened the path for Hamster to be promoted back to CW and save the day, so again Jillian ended up helping GK.

Kreistor wrote:Strategy is not luck. Failed strategy because you do not have all of the information that you need to devise a winning one is also not luck.

Acording to the other people in this forum they are, since they've all been justifying Trem's escalating fails as simply bad luck.

Kreistor wrote:Royal side that had only ever raised Princes to CW. Not luck -- tradition. And predictable. You're expecting Slately to act out of character.

Slatley sent two dozens of his sons to their deaths so he can safely sit on his throne. I would expect him to care about his life.
Kreistor wrote:And like that never happened to GK. It's how the story started! Everyone ganging up to smash GK? The Alliance, remember?

You're calling it luck for GK when that happens to Haggar, but not recognize it is unluck when it happens to GK. Favoritism.


Screw your alliance of mundane troops, GK had an MK alliance secretly backing them up all the time. Haggar had nobody coming to their rescue, no sudden rules broken to save their asses.


Kreistor wrote:The first Queen Bea knew of decrypted was when she faced her own daughter at her city's hexside. GK's secrets were kept until it was much too late for Unaroyal to use the correct tactic, which was to mass all forces and assault to overwhelm.

And GK could only keep their secrets because they had added yet another hax power to their collection. MK-walking warlords, mancers that can literally do anything, two arkentools, a good chunk of the MK backing them up from the shadows, ability to de-burn corpses, GK keeps winning big at the lottery!

Kreistor wrote:We have [b]never]/b] seen anyone do that.

And that's definitely not the "Transylvito Way". One Warlord per stack. Chief Warlord to provide bonus to all units in hex. More bonus to own stack.

What Caesar did not do was put a second warlord in his own stack to gain his greater CW bonus.

If it's "popular", then you have lots of examples to cite, right? Because I can't think of a single one, excluding ones where numbers were below 9 so they were stacking for Stacking Bonus.

Just go read the damn comic. Clearly you didn't even bother to read book 1 otherwise you would've noticed the flaming ball of death resulting from the decrypted volcano.

Neither did you readed book 2 because soon after it starts there's the attack on Ossomer's private stack of warlords.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Kreistor » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:43 pm

Lamech wrote:The first time she fell she still had to attune to an arkentool. So death was not an option due to predictamancy.


I can't agree with the infallibility of a Prediction. If the outcome of Predictions could not be affected, then no Predictamancer would be viewed as a failure when their Side fell. Predictions must be preventable, or the Predictamancer that learns of his Side's fall is merely forewarning an inevitability, and can't be vilified for the Prediction.

Nope, Charlie should have spent the calcs. Suppose everything will go according to plan? Charlie captures Parson or maybe just the bracer and has infinite calcs so spending one costs nothing.


that's an arugment that depends on hindsight. When making the decision to spend a calculation, Charlie does not have the benefit of knowing that Parson will blow the volcano (even Parson doesn't know he will do that, at that point). We also haven't established that the Gauntlet can make complex predictions about the future. That occurs later during the Text intermission.

"What are the chances that I will end up with Parson as a GK Warlord?" might come up with 0%. Why? There are many possible reasons. Stanley might disband him on a whim. The Summon Spell may disband him when Stanley dies. Parson may rebel against Stanley out of frustration. There are far too many potential futures that wind up with Parson gone that do not lead to "Parson will die trying to pass through the Portal to the MK because he exploded a volcano."

There is a difference between Prdictamancy and Mathemancy. Mathemancy can tell you what is likely to happen given a set of assumptions. Predictamancy tells you what will happen, without a timeframe or specifics of the assumptions that cause it to happen. You're treating the Bracer as a predictor of the future, rather than an indicator of probabilities.

Suppose there is a good chance that things will go haywire? Well in that case there is a good chance Charlie loses out on his bracer. Charlie could have asked "What is the chance that I will end up with the bracer or the pliers if I end the turn and attack next turn?" If the chance is unacceptably high Charlie attacks, if its minor enough to accept it doesn't really matter anyway, as it cost him nothing.


again, that is a question of a type not asked of the Bracer until the Text updates. At the time, the Bracer was only used for combat probabilities, and not complex questions about the future.

Basically the chance that he won't get the bracer is the same as the chance using a calc costs anything. If its a tiny chance of catastrophe its a tiny chance of cost. Plus a bunch of bad things could have happened to cost him his bracer.


What you're talking about is paranoia. Charlie should be always concerned that he will lose all of his forces all of the time, to any possible disaster.

While in this case, through the benefit of hindsight, we know that a disastrous result occurred for Charlie, there is nothing to indicate to Charlie that he needs to concern himself with that during his own Turn. Even if he asked the question, "What are the chances all of my units will be lost to a massive Dirtamancy trap?", he won't get 100%. The Bracer is going to look at what is necessary for it to occur. Sizemore has to survive. Wanda has to survive. Maggie has to survive. Parson has to survive. The casters all have to notice that the suggestion to go to MK was not an order. Charlie has to agree to the DDR spell. Ansom may need to be killed. The chance of getting to that conclusion on Charlescomm's Turn (so the Archons can move away) before the events of that day are so absurdly small, he'd get a tiny probability. But even with a tiny possiblity of disaster, business men do not abandon the possibility of profit. (They're still drilling oil wells in the Gulf and the far more dangerous North Sea, still building around Vesuvius, rebuilding Japan, etc.) He already knows that there is a tiny chance of disaster during any war, so he learns nothing by asking evne that specific question. We know the Dirtamancy trap occurred because that long chain of events lead to it, but the chances of that event occurring are small, and chances are what the Bracer provides. Predictamancy might tell you the volcano would definitely erupt (someday, but not necessarily on that day, since Predictanacy is vague), but Mathemancy could not. A Predictamancer and Mathemancer pair would be able to tell you the future and the most likely way that future would come about, but alone, each are flawed. (Even together, they're flawed, but that's a different argument.)

Besides that, you're asking Charlie to chase Ghosts of Christmas Future. Charlie doesn't think that way. He tries to ensure all conceivable outcomes lead to his benefit. Even knowing he wouldn't get the Bracer on his own Turn may not have lead to a change in his actions. He may have had fewer Archons present to lose, but he still would have wanted to be there to profit off Ansom in his normal mercenary function.

Basically, no way. You could ask all the question you want, an infinite number, but on Charlescomm's Turn, you would never get the answer, "Parson will explode the volcano today." that's Predictamancy, not Mathemancy.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Kreistor » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:45 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Plot shield is just another word for luck.


No, it isn't. And that means we're done. I reject your core assumptions.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Ytaker » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:15 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:
Kreistor wrote: Parson was summoned because the Side had an Arkentool, and there would be no story if GK didn't have one. this is merely ensuring parson has a rope to get off the cliff, because wihtout the Arkentools, he'd be stuck on the same cliffside as everyone else, regardless of the normal weapons given to him. Parson can't achieve Peace without a cheat code, because like his own game he was pulled away from, the players can't win without cheating.

Except we were discussing GK's luck, not Hamster's luck. You can't deny that Gobwin Knob hit the big jackpot by geting an attuned tool wielder to start with.


Popping of units is one thing we know isn't luck. It's directly or indirectly controlled by the titans. That's been mentioned several times in updates. Sides get the units that are best suited to their role and their future.

Not big luck, but still luck when you perform the same risky action multiple times with the irreplaceable unit and she keeps surviving.


We've never seen a unit croak from a fall. If the probability is low enough there's no reason in story to expect her to croak unless she really did it a lot of times.

Big damn luck. Bluffing involves your oponent falling for it. As a veteran warrior, Ansom should should know better than let a weakened vulnerable key unit live to wreck more havoc.


He didn't know she had healomancy spells, and probably doesn't know much about magic in general. There was no reason to assume she would be getting up that turn. It was a reasonable decision to leave her.

Charlie could've just burned out more mathmancy calculations to figure out the best strategy for the turn. He intended to capture/croack Hamster on that very turn anyway, he had no reason whatsoever to hold the calculations back. Thus he has no excuses to see it coming when he could've forced out all the odds of the day out of Hamster (instead of just the odds of GK surviving the day whitout archion interference).


Interesting point. He did intend to capture him certainly, but there are several other scenarios. The royal coalition could have kept him as a prisoner (though no doubt Charlie would have paid good money to buy him) or he could have escaped as a barbarian.

Also leting your contractor walking to a parley that you know is a trap won't score a lot of points with your other clients.


"Unfortunately the royal coalition was too cheap to pay for spell security. Only the wisest and most knowledgable of kings pay for spell security." That's not a trap, it's a feature.

It was much more effective than the crowd predicted, because not only it killed everything in the RC, it left all their bodies ready for decryption.

So burning down Bogroll with improvised torches prevents decryption, but angry volcano covering everybody in burning lava leaves their bodies just slightly charred and ready to be re-animated. Now that's awfully convenient


http://www.ussartf.org/volcanoes.htm

Some volcanic eruptions are explosive and others are not. How explosive an eruption is depends on how runny or sticky the magma is. If magma is thin and runny, gases can escape easily from it. When this type of magma erupts, it flows out of the volcano. Lava flows rarely kill people, because they move slowly enough for people to get out of their way. Lava flows, however, can cause considerable destruction to buildings in their path.

If magma is thick and sticky, gases cannot escape easily. Pressure builds up until the gases escape violently and explode. In this type of eruption, the magma blasts into the air and breaks apart into pieces called tephra. Tephra can range in size from tiny particles of ash to house-size boulders.


What lava we saw was probably tephra, super heated chunks of rock. Most likely died from super heated clouds of ash and gas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvG_N7eq ... re=related

Pyrolastic flows kill most. And indeed, the corpses you see look like the corpses we look like the corpses you see in comic.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_143

Grey things reduced to ash by superheated clouds. Not as damaged as someone who was hacked to pieces.

No it wasn't. How could they know that Hamster would be cornered against the wall but be able to activate a super nuke that demanded a safe spot to run away?


He didn't require a super nuke to run away. There was an invading army. He'd have run away anyway, and then been in the hands of the hippiemancers for whatever purpose they chose.

And even if they knew it, how could they grant that ability to Hamster when it clearly breaks the laws of Erfworld?


With the special subtype. A way in the rules to get in.

If they can grant any ability to Hamster, why simply don't grant him god mode and let him plow trough the enemy armies by himself while shrugging off everything? Or heck, just the ability to ride mounts would be convenient.


He does have that, he's a heavy.

You can't be a heavy type and ride mounts.

Weirdomancy allows you to grant bonuses to units that shouldn't have them. They presumably just granted him one of the bonuses of a caster. They are working within the rules. They could have granted him any other ability within the rules, but invincible isn't an ability.

It was clearly explained that Jillian could've finished of Wanda after the first volley, in particular this being a turn-based world and everything.


Where was that clearly explained?

She could have attacked her, but that's no guarantee of victory. Wanda is a master croakamancer. She's probably quite high level, being a master class croakamancer. She may have actually won the combat. Plus it's damn scary having all those spells fired at you. She may well have just fled in fear.

Then we have Transylvito crippling their own side to finance Jillian, which then proceeds to leg it out, whereas if Transylvito fighted by themselves their super bat swarm would certainly have stood a better chance.


A stupid move by their king, as noted by their chief warlord. Probably something to do with emotion and royalty, rather than rational choice.

You can nominate any warlord as CW, not only sons. Choosing mr.diplomat when you need to do serious combat now was a big blessing for GK.


He won combats before, as a prelude to diplomacy. He probably could do serious combat. It's just that in erfworld they're currently playing under a killer gm and anyone who attempts to use diplomacy gets betrayed. They didn't know that though.

[/quote]
It is unluck when suddenly everybody in the world is ganking on you out of nowhere. You have big nasty GK to worry about, and then Charlie threatens your capital, and then your suposed ally Jillian drops in the middle of battle just to distract you from fighting the enemy leader which takes the opening to shiskebash you.[/quote]

Jill is a retarded wildcard that ruins everything she touches, this is true. This is just because Jill is who she is, not because of bad luck. Bad luck to be allied with Jill.

Multiple-Warlord stack of doom is a very popular tactic in Erfworld, so clearly Warlords can benefit each other. Sylvia may not gain as much from Archer as he gets from her, but is certainly gaining something. Quite common in wargames, an unit grants a bonus to everybody else, so you you put two of those units togheter so they grant each other the bonus as well.


We've only seen one other multi warlord stack that I can think of, protecting the royals at the bridge. That was likely because warlords are superior in combat to normal units.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby teratorn » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:30 pm

I view charlie's decision at GK in another light. Charlie knew that if Parson managed to beat the RCC then the RCC would quite likely hire the archons already stationed there for an outrageous price and accept the «capture Parson clause.» It looked like a win win scenario: getting Parson and recovering the losses from making TV unwilling to hire charlescomm.

The archons decrypted, or at least one of them, must know something terribly serious. Who or what is Charlie?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:22 pm

Saladman wrote:My strong impression -and I admit I don't have a positive citation, but I'm certain I haven't seen proof of the opposite- was that multiple regular warlord bonuses don't stack with each other, you just get the highest, but that you might still stack multiple warlords if they were your toughest units. Basically using warlords in place of heavies or high-level knights. So Jetstone did have a Royal Chief Warlord leading a stack of leveled Noble Warlords, but probably just to stack the Chief and one direct bonus on top of their base combat value.


Also, the warlords probably gain more XP serving in a frontline stack than they would commanding a reserve stack. Jetstone seems to need, and used to have, a deep bench.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Kreistor » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:31 pm

teratorn wrote:The archons decrypted, or at least one of them, must know something terribly serious. Who or what is Charlie?


That was handled in the Intermission text updates. Charlie only permitted certain few Archons near him, and those never left Charlescomm. So, none of the decrypted archons ever saw Charlie.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Oberon » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:36 pm

The.Healing.Mage wrote:But whether you read this as bad rolls or bad luck or fate or the Titans intervening or what have you, in this update she kinda came off as... distant and arrogant. She didn't leap to command against a danger, she toyed with it like it wasn't a problem, facing an enemy warlord of higher level than she, she nonchallantly stayed with the siege instead of delegating that to Archer and leading the stack against Artemis. It's heavily implied that without the first strikes against the dwagons, all of Artemis's knights would have been done for, and Sylvia's bonus would have definitely tipped the scales.
You could also read that as her following her duty to the siege efforts. If soldiers allow themselves to be pulled off-task by any distraction, even a dangerous one, they risk the objectives set for them by their chain of command. I don't find it terribly awful that Sylvia would have called in non-siege dwagons and sent foot troops rather than stop the siege effort entirely and put all resources against a small stack of attackers. That can be called arrogance, or it can be called a determined effort on the mission at hand.
oslecamo2_temp wrote:It would be completely off-style of the comic for a key character to be saved by a mechanic pulled from her ass that was never used before and so far hasn't been used again.
Um, are we reading the same comic?
Kreistor wrote:Rob uses these text updates to explain the battle system to us. There is nothing wrong with trying to puzzle out the more obscure effects.
I agree, but when the theorizing doesn't have much to support it it's just an excuse to argue. ;) Here are the conclusions I draw from the combat in this update:
1) A unit can "feel" that it has shot (and this should apply to swing, cast, whatever) a crit, but that doesn't make it so. Either standard mechanics or fate can cause that shot to miss. Artemis does get a crit on a dwagon, and didn't "feel it" within the narrative (she merely claimed it was a crit after it landed), so she wasn't being hampered personally by ill fate (although one could argue that Sylvia was the beneficiary of assistance from fate);
2) Three blocked arrows in a row by interposing objects (a falling ill-placed flagstone, an arrow in a crossing path, and a helmet blasted from the body of a unit as it dies) seems highly improbable, but if a unit "feeling" that it has shot a crit isn't necessarily so, then this could be the simple representation of a missed shot within the mechanics of Erfworld;
3) Sylvia is a main comic character*, and if she (or any main comic character) died within a text update the text update would have to be included in the printed materiel in order to maintain continuity.

* This is not to say how important she may or may not be, it is merely a fact due to her appearance in the comic updates.

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Jack recovered much sooner than that [the point at which Jillian called him by name and COMPOS occured] when Hamster called him by his name. He was well enough to spot the Transylvito ambush and everything long before meeting Jillian again.
I must repeat myself: Are we reading the same comic?
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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