Book 2 – Text Updates 052

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Magentawolf » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:50 pm

A - The possibility of combo breath weapons. Cool.
B - Dwagons get their rear-ends kicked. Again.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby DyolfKnip » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:00 pm

There's also this:

Her Knights accounted for more than the maximum number of targets for two reds


So even area attacks, no matter how destructive, could still leave quite a few uninjured survivors in the middle because they can only affect X number of units. Like a block-buster bomb that isn't allowed to hurt or kill more than 100 people, even if you detonate it in Time's Square on New Years Eve. Oddly, it's a point in favor of quantity over quality, because it means even the most powerful unit in the world could swarmed by more enemies than they are allowed to attack at once. For the amount of money JS had spent on these (admittedly awesome) Knights over the turns, could be a cost-equivalent number of freshly minted stabbers would have actually gotten the job done. And that's probably exactly the military strategy of many Erf sides, and it was probably perfectly viable... until the Pliers showed up.

But apparently things that don't count as "attacks", like blowing up a volcano, or knocking down Jenga Tower, apparently don't count as attacks and don't have that limit. And not only is this an awesome exploit Parson's already made use of, but evidently the units responsible get credit for the kills and can level from it.

---

I'm sure it's been brought up before, but I'm still amazed at the different time scale Erf runs on. 1800 turns is described as being an eternity, and spending 640 days simply doing training is just unheard of. 5 years and 21 months, respectively. No patience, these guys.

---

If dwagons cost twice what knights do, that's GK came out on top. If dwagons cost 3x what knights do, then maybe not.


Ahh, but those dwagons are, at most, 72 turns old, and some of them were probably captured by Stanley for free. How much time did it take to train up all those Knights, and how much did it cost to maintain them in the meantime? My guess would be these cost calculations favor GK by several orders of magnitude. Those dwagons can be replaced in a couple turns, 2 or 3 tops. How long for JS to get more high-level Knights? Not anytime soon.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby caranha » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:12 pm

Sylvia is not protected by plot armor. Plot armor giveth, plot armor taketh it away.

No, Sylvia is protected by something much, much more powerful: Fanservice armor!

Nice update, but I was a bit miffed at the weakness of these dwagons. The first four dwagons dropped literally like flies.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Sharik » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:13 pm

Bored bored bored bored bored bored.

I for one am getting tired of GK automagically winning every engagement. With the exception of the Kingworld spell, which proved to be a relatively minor setback, and the ground troop column (which they didn't need) getting wiped out after the flyers left, things have been going almost 100% their way ever since the volcano in book 1... so, since late spring of 2009. That's a LONG time for a single dynamic to dominate the narrative.

At this point Erfworld feels like one of those Civ games where you know you're going to win given current trends, but you've still got to play out the next eighty turns or so to get there...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Saladman » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:14 pm

DyolfKnip wrote:I'm sure it's been brought up before, but I'm still amazed at the different time scale Erf runs on. 1800 turns is described as being an eternity, and spending 640 days simply doing training is just unheard of. 5 years and 21 months, respectively. No patience, these guys.


That's a fair point. I think the answer might be that, first, the life expectancy of the average infantry or even warlord just isn't that great. 1800 turns and 5 levels from combat likely is old for everybody except overlords, casters and garrison units. Add to that the Wrigley example, that a combat unit finds garrison duty boring, and the Fud example that they find combat and leveling fun and exciting, and I can see where they're coming from.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Housellama » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:38 pm

effataigus wrote:Crazy.

I feel like Rob is trying to kill Erfworld so he can kick Webcomic-Death in the nuts and steal his scythe when He shows up for Erfworld's soul. Normally I'd warn Rob that Webcomic-Death is a nut-less skeleton, but he sure seems to look like he knows what he is doing.

How exciting!


See, I don't see it this way. I see this as contrast. Jojo is trying to create an argument that Fate does not exist, or that Fate can be beaten. Now here's Sylvia, who's been laying her life and more on the fact that Fate wants her to live. And is being proven right repeatedly. To the point that she's taken out a warlord half again her level, or thereabouts. The story is in the inconsistencies.

effataigus wrote:I wonder if this is differentials in luck, or if Sylvia has honest-to-god story-sanctioned plotarmor :o


I would answer this, but someone else said it better than I could.

Sieggy wrote:Sylvia has Plotarmor because she has total and unshakeable faith in Fate and the Will of the Titans. Parson is a manifestation of this, and she believes in him without reservation. If and when she loses this faith, she'll be dusted, and not before.


+1
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Lamech » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:02 pm

DyolfKnip wrote:There's also this:
I'm sure it's been brought up before, but I'm still amazed at the different time scale Erf runs on. 1800 turns is described as being an eternity, and spending 640 days simply doing training is just unheard of. 5 years and 21 months, respectively. No patience, these guys.
The erfworlders seem to have a serious lack of work ethic in general compared to earth units. I mean we don't hear about most casters (except Sizemore) doing things like training or taking lessons to improve themselves. Compare to earth were the standard training regimen takes a couple thousand turns. With more tacked on for extra stuff.
The MK has a distinct lack of much in the way of buildings. Yes, the hippie's have the Gazeebo, and the thinkamancers have one temple, but really? You think they could do some more work; maybe even make a few little towns. Bogroll making someone some armor is considered a special gift? Having someone spend a day making something is something special? Really? A day to make armor? How long did it take to make cheap armor in earth's history again? Let alone armor good enough to put on an elite unit?
And really, they need a sustenance hack? On earth with no magic we are fully capable of providing enough food for billions. Maybe farming is harder or units need to eat more or something, but otherwise? Fail.

Also I don't think Artemis really understood the whole decryption thing. She was complaining about her lack of a chance at glory. But she's about to get her chance at glory! If Ossomer croaks she'll probably be the highest level GK warlord pretty soon. Can't get a better shot than leading the charge with Parson.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby ftl » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:09 pm

It's a universe working according to game-like rules, Lamech.

Farming enough to sustain a country without warfare *would* be the sustenance hack.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Ditto » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:21 pm

I agree that it's tiresome seeing GK win over and over again, but at least in this battle it is blatantly due to plot armor. There's no fooling around here, accidental projectiles knocking arrow after arrow out of the sky is all kinds of ridiculous and Artemis knows it, too.

At this point, GK has the initiative and it makes enough sense that they're going to take the city. But Artemis should have won that engagemetn by every indication. I'm excited to see how Slately is going to turn the tables upstairs, and what Parson is really bringing to the table.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby DoctorJest » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:22 pm

halftea wrote:I might be wrong, but I think its likely that it's Fud or one of his compatriots (From LIAB Text 39) rather than Vurp. Although it could still be Vurp...


No, Vurp was a Chieftan and therefore Leadership. The stack was unled. Ergo, the Hobgobwin Knight was not Vurp.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Skittles » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:26 pm

caranha wrote:Sylvia is not protected by plot armor. Plot armor giveth, plot armor taketh it away.

No, Sylvia is protected by something much, much more powerful: Fanservice armor!

I wouldn't be too sure about that. The ONLY person I would guarantee has plot armor is Hamster. Besides that, Jack and Charlie are the only other two characters who might have immunity (comic relief and intellectual antagonist). for everyone else, all bets are off.

Think I'm wrong? pick any important character and kill him/her. You still have an interesting story or even an interesting new hook.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby kouhoutek » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:46 pm

Housellama wrote:To the point that she's taken out a warlord half again her level, or thereabouts.


Sylvia + another warlord who completely negated Artemis's advantages, that is.

Sylvia had the advantage, should have won, and did.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Lamech » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:47 pm

Skittles wrote:
caranha wrote:Sylvia is not protected by plot armor. Plot armor giveth, plot armor taketh it away.

No, Sylvia is protected by something much, much more powerful: Fanservice armor!

I wouldn't be too sure about that. The ONLY person I would guarantee has plot armor is Hamster. Besides that, Jack and Charlie are the only other two characters who might have immunity (comic relief and intellectual antagonist). for everyone else, all bets are off.

Think I'm wrong? pick any important character and kill him/her. You still have an interesting story or even an interesting new hook.

Sylvia has plot armor here because she is a panel character (as opposed to Wriggly or Fud), she and she is semi-useful. If they had her die off no one would be around to lead the siege (accept Archer, but then we would have had a text character being important), hence Sylvia can't die. Of course, if we ever see her in a panel being hunting a few stray level 1 wild bats, they might crit her to death, or a woodsy owl might drop from a nest and bite her head off.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby zilfallon » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:50 pm

Uhm...i didn't read the other comments yet but, is it just me or... :

In fours, they cut into the greens with ferocious swipes and cuts. The first one burst before Artemis could nock her arrow.

Surely enough, both dwagons went up in similar clouds of green and black, as her eager Knights scored brilliant slash and stab hits.

The arrow disappeared entirely into the dwagon's head. Its eyes became Os, then Xs, then boom.

and Eukanuba leveled with a swipe that dusted the dwagon.

The first purple blew to dust with a horrible deep sound that she felt in her kneecaps.


...or the dwagons are getting pwnt AGAIN? This is like telling a tale of a legendary warrior killing hundreds of nameless npcs. "leveled with a swipe that dusted the dwagon" "one shotted with arrow"

and best...

"knights ganked and instantly downed 2 before the high level archer nocked an arrow" TOTALLY PWNT

I mean, srsly...yeah, elite knights, led by a good warlord and such okay. But COME ON, Sylvia is level six and they are DWAGONS you know. They're supposed to be like...unmatched fliers, very strong, the unit which makes Arkenhammer good and so on. But we only saw them as victims of worf effects. To show how skilled Artemis is, to show how badass high level archons are and such. I was always saying Arkenhammer was equal in power to other tools because of dwagons. But yeah, now I think Arkenhammer is weaker BECAUSE of dwagons :D

Personally I was thinking that we got Jack working off-screen and those dwagons who were getting one shotted were illusions. But then I realized it was for real. For this reason, I find this update at best decent. Good combat scene, but dwagon's "strength" is becoming an informed ability with each passing turn. And let's not turn this to "Bleach" with having too many informed abilities and worf effects.

Ditto wrote:But Artemis should have won that engagemetn by every indication.


Yeah, she's just attacking loads of dwagons. Total nonsense, she shouldn't have had any chance of losing.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:53 pm

Ditto wrote:There's no fooling around here, accidental projectiles knocking arrow after arrow out of the sky is all kinds of ridiculous and Artemis knows it, too.


I have it figured out!

You see, before the battle, Sylvia wrote her name on an arrow that she carries with her at all times. Really cunning plan, this.

DoctorJest wrote:No, Vurp was a Chieftan and therefore Leadership. The stack was unled. Ergo, the Hobgobwin Knight was not Vurp.


Yay! Vurp lives!


Magentawolf wrote: Dwagons get their rear-ends kicked. Again.


caranha wrote:Nice update, but I was a bit miffed at the weakness of these dwagons. The first four dwagons dropped literally like flies.


zilfallon wrote:...or the dwagons are getting pwnt AGAIN? This is like telling a tale of a legendary warrior killing hundreds of nameless npcs. "leveled with a swipe that dusted the dwagon" "one shotted with arrow"


So uhm, anyone want popcorn?
Last edited by BLANDCorporatio on Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:55 pm

zilfallon wrote:Uhm...i didn't read the other comments yet but, is it just me or... :

In fours, they cut into the greens with ferocious swipes and cuts. The first one burst before Artemis could nock her arrow.

Surely enough, both dwagons went up in similar clouds of green and black, as her eager Knights scored brilliant slash and stab hits.

The arrow disappeared entirely into the dwagon's head. Its eyes became Os, then Xs, then boom.

and Eukanuba leveled with a swipe that dusted the dwagon.

The first purple blew to dust with a horrible deep sound that she felt in her kneecaps.


...or the dwagons are getting pwnt AGAIN? This is like telling a tale of a legendary warrior killing hundreds of nameless npcs. "leveled with a swipe that dusted the dwagon" "one shotted with arrow"

and best...

"knights ganked and instantly downed 2 before the high level archer nocked an arrow" TOTALLY PWNT

I mean, srsly...yeah, elite knights, led by a good warlord and such okay. But COME ON, Sylvia is level six and they are DWAGONS you know. They're supposed to be like...unmatched fliers, very strong, the unit which makes Arkenhammer good and so on. But we only saw them as victims of worf effects. To show how skilled Artemis is, to show how badass high level archons are and such. I was always saying Arkenhammer was equal in power to other tools because of dwagons. But yeah, now I think Arkenhammer is weaker BECAUSE of dwagons :D

Personally I was thinking that we got Jack working off-screen and those dwagons who were getting one shotted were illusions. But then I realized it was for real. For this reason, I find this update at best decent. Good combat scene, but dwagon's "strength" is becoming an informed ability with each passing turn. And let's not turn this to "Bleach" with having too many informed abilities and worf effects.


I thought the same thing... but then I wondered if maybe this was supposed to hint at the Pliers losing their powers somewhat - that the Dwagons were for some reason easier to kill. (though that would then imply their post-decryption stats lie)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby effataigus » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:00 pm

Most of the dwagons that died were un-lead. Unlead units seem to suck pretty hard. Keep in mind that Bogroll had a combat of "5," so stacking with Artemis (if I understand correctly) would more than double this measure of his combat effectiveness... with Ansom would triple it.

But yes, I was hoping the dwagons would get their day today, too.

Mmm, popcorn.
Last edited by effataigus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am, edited 239044 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby sr123 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:03 pm

pick any important character and kill him/her. You still have an interesting story


I think you're wrong. Sylvia, for example, has had enough text-update attention for us to care about her but not enough development for her to fall into dust just yet. Ace Hardware and Tramennis are in the same boat - fascinating, attention-deserving, but not yet evolved.

bored bored bored


While I'd agree, two text updates in a row about the exact same battle with the same characters and themes certainly is a major cause of the boredom.

I am not convinced that all cards fall into GK's hands, or are fated to do so. Book 1 was them getting their butts kicked repeatedly - the only way PGLH could win ("no matter what the cost") was to destroy the entirety of their resources, including risking his own life by entering the MK. This book is about the tables being turned and the entirety of Erf becoming embroiled in a religious war. Ansom, Wanda, and Stanley were the only gung-ho ideologues in the first book, but now everybody seems to be choosing sides - case in point is Transylvito's royalism and Charlie no longer helping GK. Win or lose, Jetstone and co. are poor with no army with which to launch an offensive. Win or lose, GK still has Wanda (portal room) and so at least the decrypted soldiers outside the battle will continue with strong defenses. This battle decides nothing but the evolution of characters.

Regarding Fate and the favoring of GK, that's quite a stretch. First off, you have two high-level warlords duelling head-to-head - they presumably don't get bonuses themselves from their minions - or if they do, then Sylvia has the clear advantage. Three crit-fails in a row is not unheard of, and in the mechanics of Erfworld, it may simply be the realization of a "miss", as if Parson tried to throw a brick and Stanley from the tower and is immediately under combat physics, where things fly weird, instead of normal interaction physics. The Titans' Will remains Sylvia's interpretation as an ideologue.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby EricH » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:10 pm

dirocyn wrote:If Wanda ever comes out and starts decrypting, GK will gain 12 knights, 1 hobgob heavy, and a lvl 8 warlord archer. And if any of these dwagons were alive (most dusted, but 2 of the reds exploded--is that a difference?), them too.

--We've seen living dwagons get croaked before, and it couldn't be described as 'exploding'.
--'Exploded into a dusty fireball' still sounds to me like it was dusted; the explosion came because the dwagon had been preparing to breathe.
--The whole group was described as 'decrypted dwagons', implying that they weren't a mix of living and undead.
So I'm thinking those dwagons are lost.

Did someone already note that Archer's playing possum implies that the enemy can't read unit stats, after all? Or was that known before this update?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Klivian » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:14 pm

I suspect that the reason Sylvia is still kicking is that she attuned to the 'pliers. When she talked to Ossomer about the feeling she got when she picked them up, he lied about feeling the same thing. I get the feeling that her attunement will come back later on.

I'm having trouble figuring out where that is going though, since I kinda see Wanda as the final boss, once Charlie is out of the way.
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