Book 2 – Text Updates 052

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:19 pm

The Dwagons fighting here are all decrypted, because otherwise they'd be up in the air. It was harvesting that forced them to land off-turn.

About (not) seeing full enemy stats, don't think we had an indication of this before.

Klivian wrote:I suspect that the reason Sylvia is still kicking is that she attuned to the 'pliers. When she talked to Ossomer about the feeling she got when she picked them up, he lied about feeling the same thing. I get the feeling that her attunement will come back later on.


As one of the sharper forumites said, it could just be that Lady Lazarus was full of shit.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby MarbitChow » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:29 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:The Dwagons fighting here are all decrypted, because otherwise they'd be up in the air. It was harvesting that forced them to land off-turn.

Book 2 – Text Updates 052 wrote:Restricted to the ground by lack of move, the dwagons gallumphed forward like walruses.

I'm reading this as they hover if they end turn in the airspace (or over water), but are forced to land if they have 0 move otherwise. Heavy-mounted dwagons would be forced to land as well, and with 0 move, could not become airborne again once their rider dismounted.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Catalyst » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:33 pm

Slyvia really gets on my nerves. I thought she was interesting at first, but her arrogance is grating. Most decrypted are that way i guess. I just really liked Artemis, much more than Slyvia. And decrypted Artemis is not as cool, unless she resists like Ossomer is.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby ftl » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:34 pm

sr123 wrote:Regarding Fate and the favoring of GK, that's quite a stretch. First off, you have two high-level warlords duelling head-to-head - they presumably don't get bonuses themselves from their minions - or if they do, then Sylvia has the clear advantage.


They're not dueling head to head. It's Artemis plus twelve knights versus Sylvia and Archer plus their respective stacks of dwagons and minions.

Three crit-fails in a row is not unheard of, and in the mechanics of Erfworld, it may simply be the realization of a "miss", as if Parson tried to throw a brick and Stanley from the tower and is immediately under combat physics, where things fly weird, instead of normal interaction physics. The Titans' Will remains Sylvia's interpretation as an ideologue.


I agree with this and like this interpretation. A miss is a miss is a miss. If Parson dropped a brick on Stanley's head, he'd probably miss. And if it was a straight shot that by normal physics would hit, then something would go wrong to deflect it. We're seeing misses, as interpreted by the world's "game engine" and viewed through Artemis's arrogance about her skills and/or Sylvia's arrogance that Fate is saving her.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby ftl » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:37 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:The Dwagons fighting here are all decrypted, because otherwise they'd be up in the air. It was harvesting that forced them to land off-turn.

Book 2 – Text Updates 052 wrote:Restricted to the ground by lack of move, the dwagons gallumphed forward like walruses.

I'm reading this as they hover if they end turn in the airspace (or over water), but are forced to land if they have 0 move otherwise. Heavy-mounted dwagons would be forced to land as well, and with 0 move, could not become airborne again once their rider dismounted.


I would disagree. They are restricted to the ground by their 0 move because they can't switch from courtyard to airspace. Moving from courtyard to airspace OR VICE VERSA takes Move (for the invader). This was a major plot point in one direction (they couldn't land) and now in the other (they can't take off).

In a regular hex, where courtyard and airspace aren't separate zones, I don't think they'd have this restriction; this restriction isn't a separate game mechanic, just an extension of the way cities work.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:38 pm

irt. MarbitChow: Wait wha- ?

It was a big deal a few months back that Dwagons were harvested to get to ground (except yellows, pulled there by Heavies). They did not land by force, Parson needed to cook an exploit to get them there.

There was also some fracass involving yours truly second guessing Parson's decision to apparently harvest all non-Yellows and leave nothing in the air. Counter-arguments to that were that the non-harvested Dwagons would be stuck in the air and useless in the coming battle.

Catalyst wrote:Slyvia really gets on my nerves. I thought she was interesting at first, but her arrogance is grating. Most decrypted are that way i guess.


I assure you, it's only Sylvia. She seems to have a love of Fate that surpasses even Wanda's. I'd not say that Sylvia seriously thinks herself immortal, she just thought that if she were to croak, Capt. Archer would stand a good chance to finish the Siege. And she put that above her own survival.

She is teasing Fate though. In spades.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Beeskee » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:42 pm

My completely worthless predictions for the next series of events: Parson realizes the battle is too easy, and splits from GK, taking only a single Archon with foolamancy and leadership. Wanda immediately realizes that all her side's fate/luck just went with him, and orders all GK forces to submit and not engage. Slately takes the bait and sends in a squad, which falls immediately after Parson calls out to the Archon, "DDR! Expert mode!" and turns into the Frankenstein DDR Monster.*

*(There's a list of "People who will beat you in DDR", and among the usual suspects, like the 11 year old asian kid who can beat every song on the hardest setting, there's "Frankenstein": A big huge guy wearing steel-toed boots, who lumbers onto the dance pad and then proceeds to channel the spirit of every dancer who has ever or will ever live.)

And yes, the Archons can cast DDR while off-turn and trapped in the airspace. They did it at the GK battle. :D



(For the humor-impaired: No I don't know what is going to happen next.)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby MarbitChow » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:45 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:irt. MarbitChow: Wait wha- ? It was a big deal a few months back that Dwagons were harvested to get to ground (except yellows, pulled there by Heavies). They did not land by force, Parson needed to cook an exploit to get them there.

I'm not contradicting that. Once they're on the ground with zero move (by whatever means), I'm interpreting the as that they can't become airborne again until they have non-zero move. We've seen dwagons land (forest ring, Stanley's flight) at the end of their turn. We've seen them stay airborne over the lake. We saw the dwagon in the trees pop it's head up and chomp the bat scout, but it wasn't flying when it did so.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Lamech » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:53 pm

zilfallon wrote:"knights ganked and instantly downed 2 before the high level archer nocked an arrow" TOTALLY PWNT

I mean, srsly...yeah, elite knights, led by a good warlord and such okay. But COME ON, Sylvia is level six and they are DWAGONS you know. They're supposed to be like...unmatched fliers, very strong, the unit which makes Arkenhammer good and so on. But we only saw them as victims of worf effects. To show how skilled Artemis is, to show how badass high level archons are and such. I was always saying Arkenhammer was equal in power to other tools because of dwagons. But yeah, now I think Arkenhammer is weaker BECAUSE of dwagons :D

Personally I was thinking that we got Jack working off-screen and those dwagons who were getting one shotted were illusions. But then I realized it was for real. For this reason, I find this update at best decent. Good combat scene, but dwagon's "strength" is becoming an informed ability with each passing turn. And let's not turn this to "Bleach" with having too many informed abilities and worf effects.
The grounded dwagon team croaked nearly double the number lost in knights. And a level 8 warlord always has been a tough unit, nearly on par with the dwagons. Had the dwagons NOT been grounded the greens/reds could have combo'd there breaths and probably eliminated Artemis's stack in the first shoot. And they took most of the damage against unled dwagons. Unled dwagons can't just cut through anything. They aren't all powerful.
But the Jetstone forces are about to go down to the dwagon army. Everything that Jetstone can do is naught against in a straight up fight against a team of dwagons. And these guys are raiders/siege too. Soo... weak? They're winning right now. They are super-fast, better than knights, and come with a bunch of amazing specials. They seem to be on par in straight up combat against high level warlords, but that makes them... one of the best combat units in Erfworld, highly mobile, with a useful ability on top of that. I think that makes them pretty dang powerful.

MarbitChow wrote:I'm not contradicting that. Once they're on the ground with zero move (by whatever means), I'm interpreting the as that they can't become airborne again until they have non-zero move. We've seen dwagons land (forest ring, Stanley's flight) at the end of their turn. We've seen them stay airborne over the lake. We saw the dwagon in the trees pop it's head up and chomp the bat scout, but it wasn't flying when it did so.
Don't think so. I think being restricted by lack of move is unique to the current situation. If they were out in the forest they could take off and land all day.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby multilis » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:56 pm

Skittles wrote:
caranha wrote:Sylvia is not protected by plot armor. Plot armor giveth, plot armor taketh it away.

No, Sylvia is protected by something much, much more powerful: Fanservice armor!

I wouldn't be too sure about that. The ONLY person I would guarantee has plot armor is Hamster. Besides that, Jack and Charlie are the only other two characters who might have immunity (comic relief and intellectual antagonist). for everyone else, all bets are off.

Think I'm wrong? pick any important character and kill him/her. You still have an interesting story or even an interesting new hook.


I could see ironic ending where Sylvia after surviving all this with "help of fate" suddenly dies, perhaps in silly way. We have already had forshadowing by Parson that Wanda, despite her luck is foolish to count on fate and take risks.

I could see Jack, Charlie and even Parson getting killed. Any of them could be decrypted for a strange twist. Parson could be sent home if he dies, then be pulled back later. Jack could easily die as it was prophesied by Wanda in end of book 1 that Parson "lost" and would lose more... would be a twist compared to Maggie dying. Even Charlie... he could show up disguised in magic kingdom for example, Parson could realise it was Charlie, kill him, then lift the mask to find out Charlie is an older/alternative Parson with some mind damage... (eg Fight Club, Regarding Henry, Total Recall, TwoKinds and many others have variations on split personality, others such as babylon 5, and planet of the apes have twists on time travel)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:05 pm

multilis wrote:I could see ironic ending where Sylvia after surviving all this with "help of fate" suddenly dies, perhaps in silly way. We have already had forshadowing by Parson that Wanda, despite her luck is foolish to count on fate and take risks.

I could see Jack, Charlie and even Parson getting killed. Any of them could be decrypted for a strange twist. Parson could be sent home if he dies, then be pulled back later.


Two things here.

About Sylvia, completely agree. Yes she's had a remarkable run of luck as of late, but to me she's still the top most endangered character in Erfworld. She could die at any moment, without warning nor buildup, as opposed to anyone else.

Parson though cannot die*. Him being sent back to Stupidworld then returning to Erfworld is not Parson dying. The fact is, Mr. Protagonist is so central to the story that permanently removing him from it would be a huge WTF moment.

*: which may happen, admittedly. It sure would be a curveball. But it's so darn unlikely so as to not be worth speculating on. The story, so far, is in various ways revolving around Parson. To remove him completely changes it, to the point that the story Erfworld that we knew before just cannot go on. It won't be the story of a gamerboy summoned to a world in havoc to set it right. You could replace Parson by some other similar protagonist, but why go through that trouble?

So Parson is de facto immortal.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Goshen » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:05 pm

msb wrote: It seems like sort of magical interference really *is* going on.

That's my bet. Somebody somewhere is spending juice to keep Sylvia going.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Hanyo » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:06 pm

Beeskee wrote:My completely worthless predictions for the next series of events: Parson realizes the battle is too easy, and splits from GK, taking only a single Archon with foolamancy and leadership. Wanda immediately realizes that all her side's fate/luck just went with him, and orders all GK forces to submit and not engage. Slately takes the bait and sends in a squad, which falls immediately after Parson calls out to the Archon, "DDR! Expert mode!" and turns into the Frankenstein DDR Monster.*

*(There's a list of "People who will beat you in DDR", and among the usual suspects, like the 11 year old asian kid who can beat every song on the hardest setting, there's "Frankenstein": A big huge guy wearing steel-toed boots, who lumbers onto the dance pad and then proceeds to channel the spirit of every dancer who has ever or will ever live.)

And yes, the Archons can cast DDR while off-turn and trapped in the airspace. They did it at the GK battle. :D


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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:08 pm

Goshen wrote:
msb wrote: It seems like sort of magical interference really *is* going on.

That's my bet. Somebody somewhere is spending juice to keep Sylvia going.


I remember the Book 1 discussions, when Ansom just won and won, undeservedly people would say.

And then Parson shared that info about his campaign. And suddenly, even if Erfworld was not Parson's campaign, it all made sense. Seriously, it was quite something to follow the reaction threads and reversals of opinions when that was revealed.

Therefore, it's not unlikely that in some later text update we'll get to see why Sylvia had this much luck, and it will be an awesome explanation. I also conjecture that Sylvia's run of good luck was merely a side-effect and not the primary goal of whoever was influencing things.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby tennisplaya » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:27 pm

One of the things I was really struck by in this update was how weak dwagons seemed to be. As far as we know, the main the the Hammer does is tames Dwagons. The arkenpliers can raise a whole army. So it seems like the dwagons should be really powerful if that's all the hammer gets. And they were unled, but still there were six dwagons vs. 12 knights and a warlord right? And they killed like 1 knight and hurt most of the others, but that's it?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Beeskee » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:28 pm

An important thing to remember about Erfworld combat is the bonus multipliers. Led units get a HUGE boost. You can overwhelm led with unled but you need TONS of units. It's like the difference between 5+5 and 5*5. And that was how Ansom tried to win in the GK battle, with overwhelming numbers of infantry backed up by siege and specialist units. It's easy to say the volcano was overpowered, but remember before that happened, Parson whittled down the RCC forces from ~10,000 to 3,000 with just his 2,000-3,000 units. (And before the tunnel traps which gave GK a ton of uncroaked, it was around 700-800 units.)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby DunkelMentat » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:32 pm

c-square wrote:There are walruses on ErfWrold?!? :o


Yeah I think this is probably the biggest revelation from this update. Walruses! I wonder if any side can produce them as units or if they can be allied with like hobgobwins. I would love to see that art.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby lodo_bear » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:55 pm

As others have mentioned, it does seem that dwagons have been getting worfed lately. A real pity. We haven't seen them wreak real havoc since Parson had them shred Ansom's siege engines. After that, Jillian and Ansom hit them where they were weak and tore them up, then Stanley took them and flew them into a trap, then there was the summer break where we only got condensed accounts of the various victories of Gobwin Knob.

Of course, the current book has had its high points for the dwagons. Even after getting trapped in Spacerock, the yellows managed to rip open the roof and slaughter a goodly number of Jetstone troops (in what might be the least dignified way that it's possible to croak someone) and the purples are on the verge of downing the tower, possibly ending the fight for good.

Still, I hunger for some good carnage. When shall we see the dwagons cause true death and destwuction?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Beeskee » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:03 pm

Jillian was attacked by 4 dwagons back in book 1, and was able to croak one while being backed up by marshmallow peeps and lol pigeons. Dwagons are somewhat awesome, but they aren't perfect or indestructible. They can't even carry heavy riders. There may be a stronger version of dwagons that we haven't seen, too.

Personally, I think dwagons are stronger than gwiffons but weaker than megalogwiffons. This update DID say it was suicide for a knight to try to solo one. Jillian lost her engagement eventually, and the knights at the end of this engagement were soloing them just to distract them, everyone knew it was a suicide run. But multiple knights, working together, can slip in past a dwagon's defenses and croak or dust it while suffering minimal damage. Like they did in the beginning of this engagement.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Zeku » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:25 pm

Since Sylvia isn't important to anyone, (in the story) I think this is just Sylvia being given a story partner/foil, due to her popularity. This is true Titanic/author intervention.

We're seeing these events as improbable, but perhaps it is inevitable that Sylvia will eventually have her mindless belief in Fate confirmed by a massive streak of luck, and Artemis will have her fearful hope in Fate (if only I could get a crit right now!) crushed by those same circumstances. What happens to the personality of two characters that have their similar but distinct beliefs forged simultaneously like this?
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